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RDFish Brings the Entire Law Down Like a House of Cards

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Over the last several days I’ve been watching StephenB thrash RDFish in this post.

Several times SB has asked Fish this question:

Is a murderer a different kind of cause than accidental death or is it not?

Now obviously Fish is in a pickle, between the proverbial Scylla and Charybdis so to speak.  If he says that a murderer is in the same category of causation as accidental death, he will look like an idiot, because everyone knows they are not.  But if he says they are in different categories, then SB has him right where he wants him, because the next, obvious, question will be: what makes them different?  And the answer to that question is also obvious; death by murderer is caused by the act of an intelligent agent, and accidental death is not.  And inevitably that leads to this question:  Are there objective indicia that allow us to discern which is which?

Instead of admitting the obvious, Fish asserts:

You have failed to provide an objective method for discovering which arrangements of matter are “for a purpose”. There is no such method, which is why you cannot describe it.

There you have it.  Fish’s Axiom:  “There is no objective method for discovering which arrangements of matter are for a purpose.”

Wait a minute.  Wait a minute.  Isn’t it a corollary to Fish’s Axiom that the entire edifice of the law is built upon a house of cards?  And doesn’t Fish’s Axiom pull out the critical foundational card so that the entire structure of the law has come tumbling down in a twisted tangled heap?

Allow me to explain.  Almost every aspect of criminal law and much of civil law turns on the issue of intent, i.e., purpose.  The law treats accidents differently than intentional acts.  Duh.  But if Fish’s Axiom is true, then as a practical matter the distinction between purposeful (i.e., intentional) conduct and accidental conduct is meaningless.

Some years ago there was a case in which a spectator at a softball game (let’s call him “Bob”) became enraged at a call, marched out onto the field, and beat the umpire to a bloody pulp.  Naturally, the umpire was upset about this and decided to sue Bob.  But the umpire did not sue Bob for assault.  He sued him for negligence instead.  Why?  Easy.  Bob was not rich, and the umpire figured out pretty quickly that they only path to money was through Bob’s insurance company.  The umpire had a problem though.  Every insurance policy ever written has an exclusion for “intentional conduct.”  In other words, insurance companies cover you when you cause an injury by accident; for obvious reasons they don’t cover you if you cause the injury on purpose.

In a “strange bedfellows” incident, the umpire and Bob both agreed to say the whole incident was an accident, that Bob’s fists unintentionally and accidentally repeatedly made contact with the umpire’s face.  Remarkably, the jury went along, and a judgment against Bob was entered on that basis.  The umpire took the judgment to Bob’s insurance company and said, “I’ve got a judgment against your insured for an accidental injury.  Your policy covers accidental injuries.  Pay up.”  Now the insurance company decided it was not going to play along.  It brought a new lawsuit claiming that its policy exclusion for intentional conduct applied and it had no obligation to pay.  The court in that case agreed, holding that the conduct was obviously intentional and not accidental, even if both of the participants now said otherwise, and entered judgment for the insurance company.

What does all of this have to do with Fish’s Axiom?  Well, obviously if there is no objective method for discovering which arrangements of matter are for a purpose, then the second court was wrong to say that objectively Bob acted purposefully.  It gets worse.  In order to convict someone of murder, the prosecution has to prove objectively that the accused acted with the purpose of killing the victim.  In order to convict someone of robbery, the prosecution has to prove the accused acting with the purpose of depriving the victim of his property.  In order to . . .

You get the picture.  The law is saturated with “purpose talk.”  In almost every criminal trial that has ever gone to a judge or a jury from the dawn of legal procedure to this very day, “purpose” has been a critical issue.  But if Fish’s Axiom is right, if we can never objectively determine whether an agent acted for a purpose, the entire project has been one massive fraud.  Who knew?

Comments
Z said:
You want evidence that there is no scientific evidence?
I just want you to support your assertions.
That doesn’t require an exhaustive search of the universe, but just of the available scientific evidence.
I have yet to see you reference any actual scientific evidence whatsoever.
After having examined the scientific evidence — something you can do as well —, we have found no scientific evidence of disembodied intelligence. Perhaps we are wrong. If you think we are, we’d be happy to look at any scientific evidence of disembodied intelligence you provide.
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your use of the term "we". Who is "we"? Are you saying that you are personally not aware of any such evidence, and that it is your personal "shared and uniform experience"? That's taking referring to oneself in the pluralistic third person to confusing levels, Z. As far as I can now tell, you're not claiming that there is no such evidence, but rather that you are not personally aware of any such evidence. Correct? Otherwise you'd be making an assertion involving a universal negative you have no hope of supporting. Also, let's point out that you are in fact now moving the goalposts on that assertion form "evidence" to "scientific" evidence. I don't really care much that you're basically just announcing what you are personally ignorant of, but your personal ignorance of evidence is not the same thing as there not being any such evidence. You're just wording your statement of ignorance in an inappropriate way - as if you know no such evidence exists. Now, moving on to your other problematic claim you make (either by saying it yourself or endorsing a claim someone else might have made), whose "shared and uniform experience" are you making an assertion about, and how did you go about vetting that claim? Or, do you wish to withdraw that assertion as well? Or perhaps change the goalposts?William J Murray
October 12, 2015
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kairosfocus: what has actually hapened is that you have imposed a question-begging redefinition on the term science No. We use the standard definition, hypothetico-deduction.Zachriel
October 12, 2015
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Z, what has actually happened is that you have imposed a question-begging redefinition on the term science, to equal a priori evolutionary materialism or a fellow traveller thereof, and then have used that to lock out considering anything but mechanical behaviour and/or blind chance. The consequence of which is fatally self referential incoherence as such cannot account for responsible freedom. Without responsible freedom, we cannot be truly rational, and so the notion of a reasoned, "scientific" worldview evaporates also. As I just noted to WJM, the fact that we find ourselves to be conscious, rational, responsible thinkers and actors itself is strong evidence pointing beyond a world of blind chance and /or equally blind mechanical necessity with mind reduced to mechanical computational substrates of one form or another. For, a computational substrate is a mechanical system perhaps perturbed by chance, it is inherently non-rational. It is subject to GIGO, and there is in fact no good account of the spontaneous origin of the computational substrates in the brain and cns generally, apart from implicit question-begging. But this is also a reductio ad absurdum for the evolutionary materialistic view. Reppert is apt, but as a rule unheeded:
. . . let us suppose that brain state A, which is token identical to the thought that all men are mortal, and brain state B, which is token identical to the thought that Socrates is a man, together cause the belief that Socrates is mortal. It isn’t enough for rational inference that these events be those beliefs, it is also necessary that the causal transaction be in virtue of the content of those thoughts . . . [[But] if naturalism is true, then the propositional content is irrelevant to the causal transaction that produces the conclusion, and [[so] we do not have a case of rational inference. In rational inference, as Lewis puts it, one thought causes another thought not by being, but by being seen to be, the ground for it. But causal transactions in the brain occur in virtue of the brain’s being in a particular type of state that is relevant to physical causal transactions.
Pearcey is equally apt and is equally unheeded:
A major way to test a philosophy or worldview is to ask: Is it logically consistent? Internal contradictions are fatal to any worldview because contradictory statements are necessarily false. "This circle is square" is contradictory, so it has to be false. An especially damaging form of contradiction is self-referential absurdity -- which means a theory sets up a definition of truth that it itself fails to meet. Therefore it refutes itself . . . . An example of self-referential absurdity is a theory called evolutionary epistemology, a naturalistic approach that applies evolution to the process of knowing. The theory proposes that the human mind is a product of natural selection. The implication is that the ideas in our minds were selected for their survival value, not for their truth-value. But what if we apply that theory to itself? Then it, too, was selected for survival, not truth -- which discredits its own claim to truth. Evolutionary epistemology commits suicide. Astonishingly, many prominent thinkers have embraced the theory without detecting the logical contradiction. Philosopher John Gray writes, "If Darwin's theory of natural selection is true,... the human mind serves evolutionary success, not truth." What is the contradiction in that statement? Gray has essentially said, if Darwin's theory is true, then it "serves evolutionary success, not truth." In other words, if Darwin's theory is true, then it is not true. Self-referential absurdity is akin to the well-known liar's paradox: "This statement is a lie." If the statement is true, then (as it says) it is not true, but a lie. Another example comes from Francis Crick. In The Astonishing Hypothesis, he writes, "Our highly developed brains, after all, were not evolved under the pressure of discovering scientific truths but only to enable us to be clever enough to survive." But that means Crick's own theory is not a "scientific truth." Applied to itself, the theory commits suicide. Of course, the sheer pressure to survive is likely to produce some correct ideas. A zebra that thinks lions are friendly will not live long. But false ideas may be useful for survival. Evolutionists admit as much: Eric Baum says, "Sometimes you are more likely to survive and propagate if you believe a falsehood than if you believe the truth." Steven Pinker writes, "Our brains were shaped for fitness, not for truth. Sometimes the truth is adaptive, but sometimes it is not." The upshot is that survival is no guarantee of truth. If survival is the only standard, we can never know which ideas are true and which are adaptive but false. To make the dilemma even more puzzling, evolutionists tell us that natural selection has produced all sorts of false concepts in the human mind. Many evolutionary materialists maintain that free will is an illusion, consciousness is an illusion, even our sense of self is an illusion -- and that all these false ideas were selected for their survival value. So how can we know whether the theory of evolution itself is one of those false ideas? The theory undercuts itself. A few thinkers, to their credit, recognize the problem. Literary critic Leon Wieseltier writes, "If reason is a product of natural selection, then how much confidence can we have in a rational argument for natural selection? ... Evolutionary biology cannot invoke the power of reason even as it destroys it." On a similar note, philosopher Thomas Nagel asks, "Is the [evolutionary] hypothesis really compatible with the continued confidence in reason as a source of knowledge?" His answer is no: "I have to be able to believe ... that I follow the rules of logic because they are correct -- not merely because I am biologically programmed to do so." Hence, "insofar as the evolutionary hypothesis itself depends on reason, it would be self-undermining."
But then, that does not faze the committed, who will happily cling to absurdities as long as there is sufficient support that they can get away with it. However, gradually, there will be an ever widening recognition that the emperor is parading in a deluded state, denuded of clothing. KFkairosfocus
October 12, 2015
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William J Murray: You have referred me to zero scientific evidence to support this claim You want evidence that there is no scientific evidence? That doesn't require an exhaustive search of the universe, but just of the available scientific evidence. After having examined the scientific evidence — something you can do as well —, we have found no scientific evidence of disembodied intelligence. Perhaps we are wrong. If you think we are, we'd be happy to look at any scientific evidence of disembodied intelligence you provide.Zachriel
October 12, 2015
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WJM, Ironically, the same objectors know full well that computation is a non-rational, mechanical process, whether analogue or digital. The subunits neither know nor care that hey are involved in an analogue or digital computational system, they are blindly following mechanical forces (including of course electrical ones), whether analogue or digital. The reasonableness and accuracy of the results is wholly dependent on highly functionally specific and complex, purposeful organisation, which we have abundant experience of as coming from intelligence. When, we directly observe the cause. Moreover, there is no empirical basis for claiming that conscious contemplation and rational reflection -- our first experiences through which we access all others -- are accounted for on such blindly mechanical computational substrates. Going further, we have no reason to believe that the one accounts for the other as mV action potentials and ion gradients in neurons are simply categorically different from truth or falsity, rightness or wrongness, good and evil, awareness or unconsciousness, ground-consequent inference, observation, responsible freedom etc, all of which are inextricably involved in our intelligent behaviour. So, in fact we have a case of failing the vera causa demonstrated adequacy as a basis for scientific explanation test, but ideological imposition by lab coat clad evolutionary materialist scientism leads to unquestioned assumptions and assertions delivered with confident manner as though they were established facts. Indeed, we even see redefinitions of what fact means being attempted. So, no, Z's bluff is called. We have direct experience of conscious, rational responsible freedom and linked intellectual and moral struggle. We have every right to start from that, noting along the way that mechanical, material computational mechanisms, analogue or digital, are grossly inadequate to account for same. So, we have every reason to accept that here is something more, an undiscovered country that we need not blind our eyes to just because somebody is shaking his lab coats at us. Next, when we look to the origin of life and the cosmos, we find in both a pattern of complex arrangements tht bear every mark of purposeful, skilled, deeply knowledgeable, elegantly clever design. Never mind, the same are even more excitedly shaking heir lab coats. Boo, they cry! Boo right back. It is a reasonable person's view that responsible, rational, conscious freedom is datum no 1, and so far the only serious ontological explanation of that on the table is that it speaks to a different order, mind-soul-spirit. The mechanical substitutes put up as an alternative show every sign of being derivative, designed, and limited, not rising to the requisite level. I can accept the brain as a very powerful neural network computer which handles i/o, control, interfacing, storage etc, but the best model I see, by Smith, opens up the second interface, to a higher order controller -- the conscious I. And, if we are open to reasonable evidence, there is every reason to believe that there are forms of living, conscious existence that transcend the brain-body substrate. KFkairosfocus
October 12, 2015
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Z said:
Yes, and we pointed to known scientific evidence. In reply, instead of waving your hands, you could simply point to scientific evidence of a disembodied intelligence.
You have referred me to zero scientific evidence to support this claim, and so far have only referred to someone else's assertion. Please provide a link or a reference with pertinent quotes (if possible) and, if you will, a brief paragraph describing how the evidence supports your assertion. Please stop trying to shift the burden to me; it's hardly my job to refute a claim you have yet to support beyond the level of mere assertion. BTW, are you now moving the goalpost? At first you claimed "we have no evidence of such"; are you now changing that claim to "scientific" evidence?
The question is whether there is scientific evidence of a disembodied intelligence.
No, the question is whether or not you can support your assertion that there is no evidence for non-embodied intelligences? Can you? Also, would you support the associated claim that it is "shared and uniform experience" that "we" do not experience what could be reasonably described as non-embodied intelligences?William J Murray
October 12, 2015
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William J Murray: I’m not the one that made the claim, Z, so the onus is not on me to support anything. Yes, and we pointed to known scientific evidence. In reply, instead of waving your hands, you could simply point to scientific evidence of a disembodied intelligence. kairosfocus: have you given an observationally grounded molecular level answer that shows per observed capacity how blind watchmaker processes gave rise to what we see. Huh? The question is whether there is scientific evidence of a disembodied intelligence.Zachriel
October 12, 2015
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Z, have you given an observationally grounded molecular level answer that shows per observed capacity how blind watchmaker processes gave rise to what we see. I suggest, not. With all respect, what you have is quite clearly ideologically controlled just so stories dressed up in lab coats. KF PS: There is an annoying test bug.kairosfocus
October 12, 2015
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Z said:
No, we’re referring to observational evidence, that is, shared and uniform experience. Do you have observational evidence of intelligent beings (things that can learn, solve novel problems, experience conscious awareness) that are not living things?
I'm not the one that made the claim, Z, so the onus is not on me to support anything. Reiterating your original assertion is not supporting the original assertion. Since you have done this twice now, it seems you are just making empty assertions for their rhetorical value.William J Murray
October 11, 2015
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William J Murray: So, you’re backing up your assertion by referring to another assertion No, we're referring to observational evidence, that is, shared and uniform experience. Do you have observational evidence of intelligent beings (things that can learn, solve novel problems, experience conscious awareness) that are not living things?Zachriel
October 11, 2015
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Zachriel @34, So, you're backing up your assertion by referring to another assertion - one by Stephen Meyer? Does this mean you think that supporting one's assertion is as simple as quoting some other person's similar assertion? Or does it mean you cannot actually support your assertion and you think you can slide by if you quote an ID proponent who says pretty much the same thing? Do you think I care what Stephen Meyer has to say on the subject or something?William J Murray
October 11, 2015
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William J Murray: Please support your claim that we have no evidence for disembodied intelligence. "in our shared and uniform experience (as ID author Stephen Meyer would say), there is nothing that is conscious and has mental function that does not also have a functioning brain."Zachriel
October 11, 2015
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Here is another RDFish quote:
RDFish #218: I’m talking about empirical knowledge, and in our shared and uniform experience (as ID author Stephen Meyer would say), there is nothing that is conscious and has mental function that does not also have a functioning brain.
Box
October 11, 2015
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RDFish said:
The only known intelligent beings (things that can learn, solve novel problems, experience conscious awareness) are living things.
Can RDFish support this assertion?William J Murray
October 11, 2015
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Z said:
Seriously? You want support for a claim that something is conceivable?
No. I want you to support your claim that "..we have no evidence of such." Please support your claim that we have no evidence for disembodied intelligence.William J Murray
October 11, 2015
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William J Murray: I’m asking you to support your assertion. Seriously? You want support for a claim that something is conceivable? We observe that intelligence is incorporated in conjunction with biological organisms, but because we have conceptualized intelligence as an abstract, we can conceive of intelligence independent of any incorporation. Whether this is possible in practical terms is another matter entirely.Zachriel
October 11, 2015
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Zachriel, I'm asking you to support your assertion. Can you do it, or not?William J Murray
October 11, 2015
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William J Murray: Can you support this assertion? The key term there was "in principle".Zachriel
October 11, 2015
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Box: Again, we are talking about RDFish’s argument.
RDFish: 1) The only known intelligent beings (things that can learn, solve novel problems, experience conscious awareness) are living things 2) Therefore the cause of the first living things is unlikely to have been intelligent.
Zachriel
October 11, 2015
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Zachriel said:
There could certainly be disembodied intelligence, at least in principle, but we have no evidence of such.
Can you support this assertion?William J Murray
October 10, 2015
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Zach: Not sure why you misunderstand our clear statement. There could certainly be disembodied intelligence, at least in principle, but we have no evidence of such.
Again, we are talking about RDFish's argument. RDFish holds that disembodied intelligence is not possible. Obviously, you are free to disagree with him.
Zach: While evolutionary theory doesn’t purport to explain the origin of life, that is not relevant to our statement.
It is your statement that doesn't seem relevant. RDFish's rejects evolution as an explanation for "biological phenomena". Unlike you, I find no indication that he focuses specifically on the origin of life. Perhaps reading the quote again will help:
RDFish: I agree that our tests reveal that no currently understood process – including evolutionary processes – can account for what we observe. (…) We agree our scientific tests reveal biological phenomena that cannot have arisen by any known means.
Box
October 10, 2015
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Box: What it boils down to is that “intelligence cannot exist without a brain/body”, just like I said. Not sure why you misunderstand our clear statement. There could certainly be disembodied intelligence, at least in principle, but we have no evidence of such. Zachriel: Depending on the definition, evolution may be considered an intelligent designer. Box: In fact, he discards evolution as an explanation for life. While evolutionary theory doesn't purport to explain the origin of life, that is not relevant to our statement.Zachriel
October 10, 2015
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Zachriel #19,
Zachriel:
Box: RDFish’s main argument seems to be: 1) Intelligence cannot exist without a brain/body.
Rather, human intelligence is not observed to exist without a brain. The implication is that the brain is necessary, but perhaps not sufficient for human intelligence.
What it boils down to is that “intelligence cannot exist without a brain/body”, just like I said.
Zachriel:
Box (paraphrasing RDFish’s argument): Therefore 2) There cannot be an intelligent designer without a brain/body.
“Intelligence” and “design” are ill-defined in ID. Depending on the definition, evolution may be considered an intelligent designer.
Zach, we are talking about RDFish’s argument and he wouldn’t agree with you. In fact, he discards evolution as an explanation for life.
RDFish #343: Again, I agree that our tests reveal that no currently understood process – including evolutionary processes – can account for what we observe. (...) We agree our scientific tests reveal biological phenomena that cannot have arisen by any known means.
Box
October 10, 2015
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Seversky:
But a human being can be considered as much a part of the natural order of things as any other creature so, from that perspective, what a human being does is a natural cause.
That is your opinion and only an opinion.
The problem, if I understand RDFish correctly, is that there is no reliable, objective method for distinguishing between unintended and intended effects.
And yet I have posted three ways to do so.Virgil Cain
October 10, 2015
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Is a murderer a different kind of cause than accidental death or is it not?
For the purposes of deciding if a crime has been committed, yes, it is. But a human being can be considered as much a part of the natural order of things as any other creature so, from that perspective, what a human being does is a natural cause. The problem, if I understand RDFish correctly, is that there is no reliable, objective method for distinguishing between unintended and intended effects. For example, a man is found killed by a falling boulder. Was it pushed, in which case it is a criminal offense, or was it shaken loose by natural causes such as a minor earth tremor? Or a man is found lying dead in the forest, killed by a bullet from his rifle which is on the ground next to him. Did he kill himself? Was he killed by someone else who had seized the rifle for whatever reason? Or was it a tragic accident? Had he been handling a rifle that was loaded and cocked but the safety was off and something had snagged the trigger, causing it to discharge. Obviously, in the cases above, there would be an investigation. But if no evidence was found, other than what I have described above, there would be no way to decide whether the dearths were accidental or intentional. We can do it in some cases but RDFish is right in that we do not have a reliable, objective means of distinguishing between the intentional and the accidental that will work in all cases.Seversky
October 10, 2015
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Zachriel:
“Intelligence” and “design” are ill-defined in ID.
How would you know? I can easily show that they are both well-defined.
Depending on the definition, evolution may be considered an intelligent designer.
Only directed evolution can design.Virgil Cain
October 10, 2015
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Box: 1) Intelligence cannot exist without a brain/body. Rather, human intelligence is not observed to exist without a brain. The implication is that the brain is necessary, but perhaps not sufficient for human intelligence. Box: Therefore 2) There cannot be an intelligent designer without a brain/body. "Intelligence" and "design" are ill-defined in ID. Depending on the definition, evolution may be considered an intelligent designer.Zachriel
October 10, 2015
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I am tired of saying it! :)Virgil Cain
October 10, 2015
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I said it could be and I have been saying that for decades.
And we're getting tired of hearing it!Mung
October 10, 2015
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RDFish:
You have failed to provide an objective method for discovering which arrangements of matter are “for a purpose”.
So? RDFish:
There is no such method, which is why you cannot describe it.
So?Mung
October 10, 2015
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