Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Reality: The Wall You Smack Into When You’re Wrong

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I’ve been in trial the last couple of weeks, and I am just now coming up for air.  I see the debate has continued in my absence.  Alas, yet another confirmation (as if another were needed) that I am not indispensible.  Thank you to all of our posters, commenters and lurkers, who continue to make this site one of the most robust stops on the internet vis-à-vis the intelligent design debate.

 We live in a post-modern world, and the defense position at trial last week brought that dreary fact forcefully to mind. 

Without going into detail, the trial was about a contract my clients (the plaintiffs) signed in 1996.  The defendant received the benefits of his bargain and was content for 11 years.  Then, when the contract turned to my clients’ benefit in 2007, the defendant refused to pay.  Instead, he hired one of the largest law firms in the world (over 600 lawyers) to get him out of the contract, and these last several months his team of lawyers and paralegals (six strong at last count) have submitted literally hundreds of documents to the court in a feverish effort to convince the judge that – though the defendant said nothing for 11 years – the contract was unenforceable from the beginning. 

Well, that is not entirely accurate.  I should say this is the position on which the defendant finally settled after various other theories failed.  At first he claimed the contract was valid, but my clients’ calculations were wrong, and they owed him money.  When that didn’t work he claimed the entire transaction was a sham, and he knew it from the beginning.  When it came to light he had certified the transaction to the IRS in 1997, his position changed yet again.  Now, his position was that he thought the transaction was valid in the beginning, but after he reviewed the documents in connection with this case he learned he had been hoodwinked.  The transaction was always a sham, but he just hadn’t known it all these years. 

 In golf a “mulligan” is the friendly practice of letting a player get a “do over” if his tee shot goes awry.  I suppose the defendant’s lawyers thought I was going to give them a mulligan and not mention at trial the varied and inconsistent positions they had taken.  But over a million dollars was at stake, so I decided I would pass on the mulligan, and when I had the defendant on the stand the cross went something like this:

 Q.  So if I understand what you’re saying, you didn’t know there was any irregularity with the transaction when you certified it to the IRS in 1996.

 A.  That’s right.

 Q.  In fact, you’re telling me that you never knew there was the slightest problem with this transaction until you reviewed the documents produced in connection with this case.

 A.  That’s right.  I never knew.

 Q.  I have just placed in front of you the sworn affidavit you signed last September.  Do you see paragraph three there?  It says, “I believe [here I raised my voice for effect], AND HAVE ALWAYS BELIEVED, the transaction was a sham.”  My question for you is this:  Just now you testified under oath that you NEVER believed there was anything wrong with the transaction.  But last September you swore out an affidavit in which you said you ALWAYS believed the transaction was a sham.  Help me out here.  How can both of those sworn statements be true at the same time?

 This, of course, is the trial lawyer’s dream scene.  He has caught the other party making statements that simply cannot be reconciled.  Both may be false (which is the case here), but there is no way both can be true.  Needless to say, my clients are happy today.

What does this have to do with post-modernism?  Just this.  Over the last few months I have often wondered if the other side really believed they would be able to get away with just “making it up.”  That question was answered by an incident that occurred on the second day of trial.  My paralegal was in the back of a crowded courthouse elevator.  One of the defendant’s lawyers and his paralegal were in the front, and apparently they did not know my paralegal was there, because she overheard them talking about the case.  The lawyer said, “They are presenting their version of reality and we are presenting a competing version of reality.  The case will come down to which version the judge finds compelling.” 

I never thought of myself as “presenting a version of reality.”  My goal was to just get the facts out about what happened, because I have always believed that if the judge knew what actually happened we would win.  It turns out that I am hopelessly old-fashioned about these things.  In our post-modern world there are no immutable “facts” for the judge to know.  There are only competing “narratives,” and she will make her decision based upon which narrative she finds most “compelling.”  And in developing his “narrative,” a lawyer need feel no obligation to quaint outdated notions such as “what actually happened.”  There is no “what actually happened,” because reality is not fixed, objective and immutable.  No, reality is malleable, subjective and constructed. 

I like to say that reality is the practical wall you smack into when you’re theory is wrong.  And thankfully trials are nothing if not practical endeavors.  No matter what a post-modernist might say about “all reality is subjectively constructed,” the truth of the matter is they all look both ways before crossing the street.  And it turns out that judges really do try to determine “what actually happened,” and another name for “presenting a competing version of reality” is “lying under oath,” which judges tend to frown on (as the defendant found out to his dismay).

I hope our opponents who post comments on this site will keep this story in mind.  I hope they think about it the next time they are tempted to write in response to one of the arguments an ID proponent makes, “Well, that’s your reality.  My reality is different.”  It is such a hackneyed, trite and dreary expression.  Worse, it is based on a self-evidently false premise, and, as the defendant found out, it will get you in trouble if you take it seriously.

Comments
b] Sev, 39: we do not have is a good reason for thinking that cherry-picking functional similarities between human artefacts and biological organisms is anything other than weak analogising we do not have is a good reason for thinking that cherry-picking functional similarities between human artefacts and biological organisms is anything other than weak analogising A dismissive slanderous strawman, sadly reflective of the fallacy of the closed indoctrinated mind, and based on dismissively loaded language in the teeth of patent facts, facts known ever since in 1953 Crick wrote to his son thusly:
"Now we believe that the DNA is a code. That is, the order of bases (the letters) makes one gene different from another gene (just as one page of print is different from another)"
In the following decades, the protein making component of the DNA code was elucidated as a three-letter, 64 state code that uses start and stop codes [so it integrates data and instructions], and in recent years, we have been making progress on identifying the other regulatory codes that work with the protein recipes to step- by- step assemble and operate cells, organs, systems and organisms. As the DNA --> mRNA --> Ribosome + tRNA procedure shows beyond reasonable doubt [video], we see in the heart of the cell and cell based life:
i --> digital, 4-state code [DNA] ii --> transcription to a step-by-step control tape [mRNA], transmitted to a processing unit [Ribosome] iii --> Initialisation procedure in that unit [getting to the start codon] iv --> Step by step assembly of a product and associated translation from a symbolic code to its functional meaning: anticodon recognition and release of the associated specific amino acid to chain with the growing polypeptide,using tRNAs and the A and P sites in the ribosome v --> algorithmic terminaiton using a specific stop code [actually a cluster of them, with associated failsafes, as about 5% of random codons will be stops] vi --> coordinated teardown of the process unit, recycling of key elements, and transfer of product [protein] to use-sites (often using the same technique the Internet uses: headers) and more . . .
This is not weak analogy or mere cherry-picking, this is instantiation of key aspects of the mathematically worked out requisites of the von Neumann universal constructor self-replicating automaton. (Which analysis BTW predates the discovery of DNA. And, here biology bridges to other fields of study,and so Darwinian theory is suddenly open to cross tests from other well-established fields, of cybernetics, controls, communications, information theory etc. It does not fare well, but institutional power has been abused to deflect the implications and consequences, for decades. The challenge raised by Design Theory is just the first set of ripples from the tidal waves that are coming. But, you see the relevant experts on these issues are n0ot biologists, generally speaking. Cyberneticists, mathematicians, engineers, applied physicists and the like are far more likely to understand the key issues, and to come to the question without institutionalised ideological bias and control.) Namely:
(i) an underlying code to record/store the required information and to guide procedures for using it, (ii) a coded blueprint/tape record of such specifications and (explicit or implicit) instructions, together with (iii) a tape reader [called “the constructor” by von Neumann] that reads and interprets the coded specifications and associated instructions, and (iv) implementing machines (and associated organisation and procedures) to carry out the specified replication (including that of the constructor itself); backed up by (v) either: (1) a pre-existing reservoir of required parts and energy sources, or (2) associated “metabolic” machines carrying out activities that provide required specific materials and forms of energy by using the generic resources in the surrounding environment.
Also, parts (ii), (iii) and (iv) are each necessary for and together are jointly sufficient to implement a self-replicating von Neumann universal constructor. That is, we see here an irreducibly complex set of core components that must all be present in a properly organised fashion for a successful self-replicator to exist. [Take just one core part out, and function ceases: the replicator is irreducibly complex (IC).] This irreducible complexity is compounded by the requirement (i) for codes, requiring organised symbols and rules to specify both steps to take and formats for storing information, and (v) for appropriate material resources and energy sources. The notion that blind chance and undirected mechanical necessity would even once construct such an entity on the gamut of our observed cosmos is patently absurd. The only credible source of sch integrated functional information and design is advanced technology, beyond what we can as yet achieve. And, when we see that the finetuned cosmos is also plainly set up to facilitate the circumstances for c-chemistry cell based life to be made and to thrive, which suggests even more advanced art backed up by unimaginable power, we begin to get a view of why it is that the materialists so fear "a Divine Foot" in the door to their dolly-house. c] MF, 41: I don’t answer Kairofocus’ arguments because I don’t read them and I don’t read them because they are too long. This, from someone doing a Masters on Science in Society who has asked for help on the debate over embryonic stem cell debates. He knows, or should know, that university libraries brim over with long papers, essays and books that are typically many thousands of words in length, to deal with major topics at responsible length. So, for instance, above, Seversky raised several key issues, which require significant length to address responsibly. A length that is far shorter than the dozens of books and papers that could have simply been referred to. But we already know that since Sev et al have been previously engaged and corrected by linking relevant correctives, such are typically unresponsive to mere reference; e.g. on the inherently self refuting nature of evolutionary materialism. That is, MF -- sadly -- is being distractive and dismissive, while refusing to engage the substantial issues. ________________ Looks like some "my reality vs yours" materialist spinning has again suffered a mischief after it has yet again smacked into the wall of credible scientifically grounded reality . . . Smack! G'day GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 9, 2010
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Oookay . . . Mr Arrington: Thanks for the kind words. Mr Frank: You rather underscore Mr Arrington's point, when you say you choose to ignore rather than correct. (I am fairly sure that if you and others of like ilk had cogent replies, you would pounce triumphantly. As it is I now recommend that you take a read of the opening remarks in this online version of an interesting survey on how we usually think and what to do about it.) Senor Seversky (and Pelagius): The fatal -- and utterly revealing --flaw in your argument is that, just as those before you, you assume and/or try to drive a wedge between justice and truth, while confusing advocacy of one party to a dispute with the overall intent of the justice system. The premise of the adversarial justice system is that with the different parties being given fairly broad ambit to present their cases, and with an umpire to enforce rules of process and evidence etc based on long experience, a jury of ordinary reasonably intelligent people will be able to sift and conclude on what the true facts are, whether on preponderance or beyond reasonable doubt. As Barbara Gloudon of Jamaica's airwaves so often said: "there are three sides to a story: my side, your side; and, the truth." So, when you Seversky dismiss the truth and try to drive a wedge between truth and justice in such a tone, and when you Pelagius cannot discern the implications of such a dismissal of truth in so vital a context, that underscores the point Mr Arrington is making. namely, that he rise of evolutionary materialism is doing in our time precisely what it has always done since 400+ BC: radically relativise and rhetoricise the community, denigrating truth in favour of opinion, agendas and power games. Down that road lie reigns of terror, and down that road lies the death of science in any sense worth having. For, if the courts are not constrained by truth, there is no reason to protect the powerless innocent, if the powerful suspect or wish to be rid of them. And, if the institutions of science are not concerend with credible truth then they are betraying a core purpose of science:
scientia [Latin] = knowledge [English, rooted in Gk gnosis] = warranted, credibly true belief [per the balance of the case on epistemology].
In this regard, when pelagius says "I don’t see anyone in this thread resorting to radical relativism . . . " that may itself be a clue pointing to the influence of precisely that radical and radically flawed view. Truth is not merely perception. Also, some specific points require correction: a] Sev, 39: Name one scientific advance or product of human technology in the last two hundred years which has not been founded on a materialist assumption. Materialism is not some arbitrary a priori, it is a warranted inference from observation and empirical testing. Put simply, it works. That is why it is used. Utterly, outrageously, false. Just taking two points of history, most of the technical advances in the past 200 years have been based on the rise of electromagnetism [even relativity and quantum theory rose up out of EM!], and the development of thermodynamics. The relevant founders -- e.g. Faraday, Maxwell and Kelvin -- most plainly worked in the classic paradigm that science is thinking God's creative thoughts about him. Indeed,the concept of electromagetic waves was rooted in reflections on the Triune nature of God. So, the first problem with this claim is tat it is not only patently false but a lie. For, any competent examination of the roots of modern science will at once show that that enterprise is inextricably rooted in Biblical, Judaeo-Christian soil, as for instance this article will document at 101 level. And, it is plain that scientists work best by unfettered but ethically and intellectually responsible inference to best current [and progressive] explanation of credible empirical data, not by imposing evolutionary materialism as a censoring a priori grid. In addition, as we have seen from Lewontin et al and the US National Academy of science et al, Seversky is trying to deny and dismiss the unwelcome truth. Let us hear Lewontin again, to underscore the point:
Most of the chapters of The Demon-Haunted World are taken up with exhortations to the reader to cease whoring after false gods and to accept the scientific method as the unique pathway to a correct understanding of the natural world. To Sagan, as to all but a few other scientists, it is self-evident that the practices of science provide the surest method of putting us in contact with physical reality, and that, in contrast, the demon-haunted world rests on a set of beliefs and behaviors that fail every reasonable test . . . . It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door.
Materialism is plainly being imposed by ideologised scientific institutions as a censoring a priori, especially on origins science. Indeed, they are even trying to redefine science in materialist terms, to better enmesh and indoctrinate young and impressionable students in schools, threatening to hold such students hostage to ram through their agenda in the teeth of understandably reluctant boards of education. Worse, this is an attempt to excuse outrageous imposed censorship on origins especially, premised on a system of thought that is inescapably and inherently self-refuting [onlookers, notice the studious silence in the face of this link and others like it]; thus, per logical necessity, definitively false. Excerpting tghe key part of the just linked:
. . . [evolutionary] materialism [a worldview that often likes to wear the mantle of "science"] . . . argues that the cosmos is the product of chance interactions of matter and energy, within the constraint of the laws of nature. Therefore, all phenomena in the universe, without residue, are determined by the working of purposeless laws acting on material objects, under the direct or indirect control of chance. But human thought, clearly a phenomenon in the universe, must now fit into this picture. Thus, what we subjectively experience as "thoughts" and "conclusions" can only be understood materialistically as unintended by-products of the natural forces which cause and control the electro-chemical events going on in neural networks in our brains. (These forces are viewed as ultimately physical, but are taken to be partly mediated through a complex pattern of genetic inheritance ["nature"] and psycho-social conditioning ["nurture"], within the framework of human culture [i.e. socio-cultural conditioning and resulting/associated relativism].) Therefore, if materialism is true, the "thoughts" we have and the "conclusions" we reach, without residue, are produced and controlled by forces that are irrelevant to purpose, truth, or validity. Of course, the conclusions of such arguments may still happen to be true, by lucky coincidence — but we have no rational grounds for relying on the “reasoning” that has led us to feel that we have “proved” them. And, if our materialist friends then say: “But, we can always apply scientific tests, through observation, experiment and measurement,” then we must note that to demonstrate that such tests provide empirical support to their theories requires the use of the very process of reasoning which they have discredited! Thus, evolutionary materialism reduces reason itself to the status of illusion. But, immediately, that includes “Materialism.” For instance, Marxists commonly deride opponents for their “bourgeois class conditioning” — but what of the effect of their own class origins? Freudians frequently dismiss qualms about their loosening of moral restraints by alluding to the impact of strict potty training on their “up-tight” critics — but doesn’t this cut both ways? And, should we not simply ask a Behaviourist whether s/he is simply another operantly conditioned rat trapped in the cosmic maze? In the end, materialism is based on self-defeating logic . . . .
[ . . . ]kairosfocus
May 9, 2010
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Barry (37): You've prompted me to read an entire GEM gallop for the first time in two years. He put many more words into my mouth than had come out of it, as well as his beloved Divine Foot. The reason I don't interact with him is that it provokes an exponential increase in verbiage. In a comment kairosfocus responded to in another thread, I wrote:
It genuinely distresses me to see people who understand themselves to be children of God, made in the image of God — in this world, but supposedly not of it — assimilate a sick zeitgeist in which everything real is knowable by public science, and anything that is not knowable by public science is not real. By private experience, which I will not allow anyone to discount, I understand myself to be a god, and a child of God. My sense of my own agency is ineluctable.
Now he writes:
15 –> And, Sooner, to speak of intelligent activity as “godlike” may well be far closer to the truth than you are willing to admit. “For, in his image God made man.” When you take off your lab coat tonight to go to bed, think on that a bit.
I'd say he's smacked into the wall you're talking about. Do you actually admire this behavior?Sooner Emeritus
May 9, 2010
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#35 Barry on kairofocus kairosfocus: Never think you are just beating the air. Your arguments are devastating. The materialists rarely answer them because they are unusually unanswerable. I don't answer Kairofocus' arguments because I don't read them and I don't read them because they are too long. I suspect this is common to a lot of other materialists. I used to read vjtorley with interest but, sadly, he too is starting to write items of several thousand words. In most universities undergraduates are expected to work to a strict word limit. This is a great discipline. Maybe UD should introduce something similar?Mark Frank
May 8, 2010
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Borne @ 32
As Hoyle stated Darwinists are
“in a sense mentally ill or, more precisely, either you became mentally ill or you quitted the subject of biology, as I had done in my early teens. The trouble for young biologists was that, with everyone around them ill, it became impossible for them to think they were well unless they were ill, which again is a situation you can read all about in the columns of Nature [magazine].” Hoyle, F., “Mathematics of Evolution”
Clarke's First Law:
When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.
Seversky
May 8, 2010
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kairosfocus @ 25
If you take time to look here you will see the point of evidence from a founder of themodern theory of evidence whose major work on the subject stills ells for US$300+.
If I ever have the misfortune to be called before a court to defend some action or words the lawyer representing me will undoubtedly cost considerably more than $300.00. I do not want that man or woman to be pre-occupied with lofty notions of truth, I want them to be doing their damnedest to win my case by any legal means. I have no doubt that Barry Arrington's clients feel the same.
If evidence towards truth is irrelevant to courts, what you have is a reign of terror, at the whim of the ones who control the judges.
If truth were so easy to unearth we would have little need of courts. There are undoubtedly some criminal cases where the evidence of guilt is so overwhelming that the defendant's only realistic option is to throw himself on the mercy of the court. More often than not, though, the evidence is not so clear cut. This means that lawyers are able to offer competing explanations for the evidence and, in practice, the jury decides, not which is true, but which of them is the more persuasive. This is not a retreat into relativism. It is a recognition of the fact that the available arguments and evidence do not warrant any higher degree of certainty.
And when arbitrary rules such as materialim as an a priori by the back door are allowed to corrupt science, it too becomes simply a tool to advance a dangerous agenda.
Name one scientific advance or product of human technology in the last two hundred years which has not been founded on a materialist assumption. Materialism is not some arbitrary a priori, it is a warranted inference from observation and empirical testing. Put simply, it works. That is why it is used.
Sev, we DO have well known easily observed explanaitons for programs, codes, data structures and implementing machines for same. Designers.
True, but what we do not have is a good reason for thinking that cherry-picking functional similarities between human artefacts and biological organisms is anything other than weak analogising.Seversky
May 8, 2010
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@Phaedros #16 -"I was speaking to a friend of mine about the nature of science, she is one taken in by people like Dawkins and Shermer, and I said science is the freedom to examine any question or problem one can imagine or want. She said, flat out, “No it isn’t.” Shouldn’t this be a warning sign to someone who herself is graduating with a degree in chemistry soon?" This is precisely the problem with modern scientists (or "scientists" if you like). They are simply not trained to be pursuers of knowledge, but rather they are merely trained in the very specific and limited methodology of their respective field. This is one of the criticism Feyeraband made of modern science and I even think he criticized people like richard faynman, saying while he was a smart guy he lacked depth of knowledge and understanding.above
May 8, 2010
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kairosfocus: Never think you are just beating the air. Your arguments are devastating. The materialists rarely answer them because they are unusually unanswerable. Your friends do not answer them, because after you have spoken, little else need be said. You are strong ally and a daunting opponent. Thank you for your posts.Barry Arrington
May 8, 2010
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Mr Arrington, You seem to be using a version of the classic aphorism by Phillip K Dick - "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."Nakashima
May 8, 2010
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Anyway, I'm interested in hearing Barry's response to my question. Remember, he wrote this:
I hope our opponents who post comments on this site will keep this story in mind. I hope they think about it the next time they are tempted to write in response to one of the arguments an ID proponent makes, “Well, that’s your reality. My reality is different.”
He must have had someone specific in mind. After all, he wrote this:
Over the last few months I have often wondered if the other side really believed they would be able to get away with just “making it up.”
After scolding his opponents this way, surely he wouldn't try to get away with making stuff up himself, would he?pelagius
May 8, 2010
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kairosfocus wrote:
Just look above in this thread and you will see more than enough cases in point of materialism advocates resorting to radical relativism, though not using Barry’s specific language.
I don't see anyone in this thread resorting to radical relativism. Here's what Sooner Emeritus actually wrote about the justice system:
Legal institutions blind judges of the facts to certain sorts of evidence. The primary objective is administration of justice, not determination of reality.
He is not denying the existence of objective reality, so this is not radical relativism. In fact, though you seem to have missed this entirely, Sooner is stating an objective fact about the legal system: it does rule certain evidence inadmissible, even when doing so impedes the court's ability to determine the truth.pelagius
May 8, 2010
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Borne Thanks for the kind words. It helps us realise we are not just beating the air. BTW, this work on fallacies is sobering reading. Pelagius: Just look above in this thread and you will see more than enough cases in point of materialism advocates resorting to radical relativism, though not using Barry's specific language. (Cf how some arguments put forth by those of that ilk have had to be deconstructed. For instance, would you like to be on trial [as an innocent] in a courtroom where truth was not seen as an integral part of justice, and truth was confused with persuasiveness?) GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 8, 2010
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Great stuff kairsfocus and bornagain The materialist cannot see the inherent contradictions in his flawed world view because his mind is handicapped by an acute cognitive dissonance engendered by his initial rejection of absolutes. Materialism necessitates relativism and relativism incapacitates the minds ability to reason correctly -because it generates powerful cognitive dissonance. As Hoyle stated Darwinists are
"in a sense mentally ill or, more precisely, either you became mentally ill or you quitted the subject of biology, as I had done in my early teens. The trouble for young biologists was that, with everyone around them ill, it became impossible for them to think they were well unless they were ill, which again is a situation you can read all about in the columns of Nature [magazine]."
Hoyle, F., "Mathematics of Evolution" It takes something akin to a mental shock to mend such a mind. But while that mind subconsciously seeks to avoid all such shocks, it remains blinded to simple realities such as those so often discussed here. i.e. No one can reason with a determined materialist - logic drops off them like water off a ducks back. That's why the materialists here remain dull and incapable of seeing their error, in spite of the multitude of times where that error has been shown to them in clear and simple terms (as you've done above). The only remedy is that they themselves, from their innermost will, decide to open their mind to the possibility that they may be wrong. In biblical terms this is akin to opening up to the conviction of the Holy Spirit which if accepted leads to regeneration of ones whole life and raison d'être.Borne
May 8, 2010
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Barry, You seem to be ignoring the question I raised in comment #1:
I hope our opponents who post comments on this site will keep this story in mind. I hope they think about it the next time they are tempted to write in response to one of the arguments an ID proponent makes, “Well, that’s your reality. My reality is different.”
Barry, Could you give us some specific examples of ID critics who have made such statements on this site? Thanks.
Can you supply some examples? Or have you, to borrow your metaphor, smacked into the wall of reality?pelagius
May 8, 2010
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F/n: In 24 I am pointing out to Sev that the lawyers present competing arguments before a Jury, with a Judge as umpire. (Mind you, in this dumbed down media manipulated radical secularist, radical relativist age, juries may be gradually losing their grip on common sense . . . )kairosfocus
May 8, 2010
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Off topic: This woman has just stretched my view of reality dramatically: Heidi Baker: Intimacy for Miracles - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgGu782dNX0 Finger of God (Film) part 8 of 10 - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ru4DuA8m3Fkbornagain77
May 8, 2010
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Oh yes, since it can be a bit hard to find online, here is a 101 on the fallacy of the closed mind. (It may be painful reading, but sometimes to alternative to lancing an abscess is blood poisoning.)kairosfocus
May 8, 2010
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Oops, this is one of those high typo days, Sorry.kairosfocus
May 8, 2010
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PS: Seversky, radical relativism is exactly what Sooner has advocated, and it is precisely what Barry had to deal with in the court. As Plato long ago pointed out in trhe already linked The Laws Bk X, the rise of such radical relativism in our civilisation is directly connected to the implications of evolutionary materialism, with its scanting of truth and morality:
[The avant garde philosophers, teachers and artists c. 400 BC] say that the greatest and fairest things are the work of nature and of chance, the lesser of art [ i.e. techne], which, receiving from nature the greater and primeval creations, moulds and fashions all those lesser works which are generally termed artificial . . . They say that fire and water, and earth and air [i.e the classical "material" elements of the cosmos], all exist by nature and chance, and none of them by art, and that as to the bodies which come next in order-earth, and sun, and moon, and stars-they have been created by means of these absolutely inanimate existences. The elements are severally moved by chance and some inherent force according to certain affinities among them-of hot with cold, or of dry with moist, or of soft with hard, and according to all the other accidental admixtures of opposites which have been formed by necessity. After this fashion and in this manner the whole heaven has been created, and all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only . . . . these people would say that the Gods exist not by nature, but by art, and by the laws of states, which are different in different places, according to the agreement of those who make them; and that the honourable is one thing by nature and another thing by law, and that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them . . . These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might [cf sooner above and what you are trying to back up!], and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions, these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is, to live in real dominion over others [here, Plato hints at the career of Alcibiades], and not in legal subjection to them . . .
PPS: This is a classic strawman:
We can imagine, for example, some detached deity who, having created our Universe, retreated to some entirely discrete dimension or realm where it watches its creation without further interference. But if that deity and that dimension are entirely inaccessible to us and have no effect on what happens in our Universe then, for all intents and purposes, they might as well not exist.
Seversky, that is inexcusable in one who has been here at UD for many months and could easily correct his views by looking at the weak argument correctives. ID studies not a deistic god beyond observation, but very observable, empirically reliable signs of intelligence. Signes such as funcitonally specific complex informaiton that we coomonly see, and just as commonly can observe are routinely produced by intelligent action. Further, in our observation, it is not seen to be produced by the alternatives to such intelligence, i.e. chance and/or mechanical necessity. So, we have every right to infer form empirically reliable signs to what they signify: intelligent action. So, the correct contrast to examine is nature vs art in light of empirical signs of art. And, I am sure you have been informed of this over and over, so the issue is willful closed-mindedness. Why the issue of closed mind comes up, is that you routinely accept the inference form sign to signified intelligence with say posts in this thread; but where similar signs point strongly to the design of life (and of a cosmos fine-tuned for such life) you suddenly impose irrelevant and censoring philosophical a prioris as though science = materialism. So, when I see persistent strawman distortions like I have had to cite, in the teeth of specific and easily accessible correction, it raises very serious questions.kairosfocus
May 8, 2010
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Seversky: The adverserial system is intended to use motivated advocates to seek the truth, by using the common sense of the proverbial man in the Clapham Bus stop to assess what clever competing advocates have to say. If you take time to look here you will see the point of evidence from a founder of themodern theory of evidence whose major work on the subject stills ells for US$300+. If evidence towards truth is irrelevant to courts, what you have is a reign of terror, at the whim of the ones who control the judges. And when arbitrary rules such as materialim as an a priori by the back door are allowed to corrupt science, it too becomes simply a tool to advance a dangerous agenda. Notice here, onlooker,s that the objectors are unable to show that intelligent action is not a relevant causal factor that leaves signs behind that cannot credibly be mimicked by chance and/or necessity. They are trying to rule out examining the evidence when it does not fit their preeconceoptoions on what "must" have happened. Sev, we DO have well known easily observed explanaitons for programs, codes, data structures and implementing machines for same. Designers. Just, a designer of the codes, programs and machines in cell based life seems to open the door just a crack for the Foot of someone you are most anxious not to meet. At least, if Lewontin's honest admission is to be believed. That sounds very familiar, and telling. Please, think again. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 8, 2010
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My understanding has been that, in an adversarial system of trial such as we have in the US and the UK, lawyers are not employed to find the truth but to win an argument or, more precisely, to persuade a jury that they have a better case than their opponent. The underlying assumption is that the truth will emerge from such a process of intense examination and debate. There are some similarities between the legal and scientific processes but one area where they differ is that science does not rely on a single test of the arguments and evidence to decide the issue. If the available evidence is inconclusive then it can afford to suspend judgement until such time as more data and better explanations emerge. The fact that biology and chemistry do not yet have an explanation of how life began or that physics cannot yet explain what caused the Big Bang does not mean that they have lost their case and the opposition wins by default as might happen in court. It simply means we have to be patient and wait for the results of further investigation. In that context Phaedros's friend is right. Science is not about "the freedom to examine any question or problem one can imagine or want" - that is assumed - it is about the methods employed to investigate an issue. Science subsists in the scientific method or methodological naturalism. It is the gathering of observational data, the construction of explanations of that data and the testing of those explanations. It requires its practitioners to be patient, meticulous, thorough and scrupulously honest. It insists on replication because, being human, individual scientists can make mistakes or otherwise fall short of the ideal like anyone else. If the results of a piece of research cannot be duplicated by other investigators then there was probably something wrong with the original. As for some sort of relativist defense, personally, I have never seen it used here. In fact, my impression is that if there is one view that is common to both sides of the debate it is an undisguised contempt for postmodernism. Nor are there any corners of the Universe forbidden to science. The only aspects or domains of existence that cannot be investigated are those that are beyond the reach of any of us, even in principle. We can imagine, for example, some detached deity who, having created our Universe, retreated to some entirely discrete dimension or realm where it watches its creation without further interference. But if that deity and that dimension are entirely inaccessible to us and have no effect on what happens in our Universe then, for all intents and purposes, they might as well not exist. If, on the other hand, we have something like vjtorley's god who is actively sustaining the Universe from one instant to the next then there is at least the possibility of investigating its existence. It all depends on the nature of your proposed god.Seversky
May 8, 2010
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Sorry, something weird seems to have happened.kairosfocus
May 8, 2010
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9 --> Of course, to "justify" the notion that science is the only begetter of truth, Lewontin asserted a philosophical claim, in a plainly metaphysical worldview level claims context. Worse, by using the loaded word "demons: he and Sagan were loading the language and poisoning the atmosphere. Further, ever since Plato, it should be obvious that we are not locked up tot he direct contrast: natural vs supernatural, but we may profitably on an empirical basis assess the signs of chance, necessity and art or intelligence. Indeed, to deny that we ourselves are intelligent and leave signs of intelligence is self-refuting and absurd. Finally, the outright hostility tot he idea of a Divine Foot in the door, and the open declaration of a priori materialism show that we are dealing with an agenda here, not with openness to correction in the way of truth. With -- pardon a few frank words -- arrogant and dismissively insulting closed mindedness imposed by the power of a materialistic magisterium, in short. 10 --> But, 13 years have now passed, and Lewontin's article has been a staple for well-justified criticism, so a more subtle approach has to be used. 11 --> So, we see this, from someone who EXPERIENCES being an intelligent, deciding, thinking creature, observes other similar creatures who behave like that, and who routinely observes functionally specific, complex information such as posts in this thread, as reliable signs of such intelligence:
No matter how many people report their intuitive sense of using intelligence to create information that serves their purposes, such godlike activity is not publicly observable.
14 --> The selective hyperskepticism and a priori materialism lurk just under the surface, as does the loading of language and polarising of the atmosphere. For instance, we publicly, routinely, experience and observe that intelligent creatures produce FSCI, and only such creatures do so in our observation. But since the sausage factory is not obvious, dismissive and prejudicial language is used to distract from the observable signs of intelligence and their massively established empirical reliability. 15 --> And, Sooner, to speak of intelligent activity as "godlike" may well be far closer to the truth than you are willing to admit. "For, in his image God made man." When you take off your lab coat tonight to go to bed, think on that a bit. 16 --> And, since we personally experience being intelligent, this is not hearsay evidence at all. Indeed, we have a massive and plainly inconvenient body of eyewitness testimony going on around us all the time. [Hearsay, FYI, is deprecated because it is second hand and the reporter may not be able to directly affirm the truth from his or her experience. Thus, we see that the very term you used points to the primacy of experience as a source of and qualification to report the truth.] 16 --> Going beyond that, you very conveniently refused to identify the specific "blinders" you would put on science: evolutionary materialism as an a priori, that filters the evidence that one is willing to accept, i.e biased, worldview level a priori question-begging. 17 --> Sorry, we will not accept that defective, self-referentially incoherent and self-refuting lot of goods; return to vendor. 18 --> By contrast, let us see that science, at its best, is an unfettered (but ethically and intellectually responsible) progressive pursuit of the truth about our common world, based on experience, observation, analysis, theorising and uncensored [but respectful] discussion among the informed. 19 --> To do science, one has to be intelligent, and one has to communicate in language, using symbols, rules and processes that generate functionally specific, complex information. Indeed, no scientific experiment report or properly formatted peer reviewed paper has ever been observed to be produced by chance circumstances and blind forces of mechanical necessity. Such manifestations of FSCI are uniformly observed to be the product of art, i.e. design. 20 --> So, ther very processes of science underscore the significance of intelligent design as a commonly observed causal foce in our world, and indeed, in many fields that are unquestionably scientific, whether pure or applied, we routinely infer to intelligent causes from signs of intelligence. 21 --> And so, on evidence not emotion, it is not a mere tantrums or wishful thinking that make adherents of design theory object to the imposition of materialist blinkers on science! CONCLUSION (PER FAIR COMMENT): The sort of specious objections and sophistical rhetoric we see above only turn up when the a priori assertions and assumptions of evolutionary materialism are under threat of rejection or refutation. _________________ Sooner, surely, you can do better than this. GEM of TKI9 --> Of course, to "justify" the notion that science is the only begetter of truth, Lewontin asserted a philosophical claim, in a plainly metaphysical worldview level claims context. Worse, by using the loaded word "demons: he and Sagan were loading the language and poisoning the atmosphere. Further, ever since Plato, it should be obvious that we are not locked up tot he direct contrast: natural vs supernatural, but we may profitably on an empirical basis assess the signs of chance, necessity and art or intelligence. Indeed, to deny that we ourselves are intelligent and leave signs of intelligence is self-refuting and absurd. Finally, the outright hostility tot he idea of a Divine Foot in the door, and the open declaration of a priori materialism show that we are dealing with an agenda here, not with openness to correction in the way of truth. With -- pardon a few frank words -- arrogant and dismissively insulting closed mindedness imposed by the power of a materialistic magisterium, in short. 10 --> But, 13 years have now passed, and Lewontin's article has been a staple for well-justified criticism, so a more subtle approach has to be used. 11 --> So, we see this, from someone who EXPERIENCES being an intelligent, deciding, thinking creature, observes other similar creatures who behave like that, and who routinely observes functionally specific, complex information such as posts in this thread, as reliable signs of such intelligence:
No matter how many people report their intuitive sense of using intelligence to create information that serves their purposes, such godlike activity is not publicly observable.
14 --> The selective hyperskepticism and a priori materialism lurk just under the surface, as does the loading of language and polarising of the atmosphere. For instance, we publicly, routinely, experience and observe that intelligent creatures produce FSCI, and only such creatures do so in our observation. But since the sausage factory is not obvious, dismissive and prejudicial language is used to distract from the observable signs of intelligence and their massively established empirical reliability. 15 --> And, Sooner, to speak of intelligent activity as "godlike" may well be far closer to the truth than you are willing to admit. "For, in his image God made man." When you take off your lab coat tonight to go to bed, think on that a bit. 16 --> And, since we personally experience being intelligent, this is not hearsay evidence at all. Indeed, we have a massive and plainly inconvenient body of eyewitness testimony going on around us all the time. [Hearsay, FYI, is deprecated because it is second hand and the reporter may not be able to directly affirm the truth from his or her experience. Thus, we see that the very term you used points to the primacy of experience as a source of and qualification to report the truth.] 16 --> Going beyond that, you very conveniently refused to identify the specific "blinders" you would put on science: evolutionary materialism as an a priori, that filters the evidence that one is willing to accept, i.e biased, worldview level a priori question-begging. 17 --> Sorry, we will not accept that defective, self-referentially incoherent and self-refuting lot of goods; return to vendor. 18 --> By contrast, let us see that science, at its best, is an unfettered (but ethically and intellectually responsible) progressive pursuit of the truth about our common world, based on experience, observation, analysis, theorising and uncensored [but respectful] discussion among the informed. 19 --> To do science, one has to be intelligent, and one has to communicate in language, using symbols, rules and processes that generate functionally specific, complex information. Indeed, no scientific experiment report or properly formatted peer reviewed paper has ever been observed to be produced by chance circumstances and blind forces of mechanical necessity. Such manifestations of FSCI are uniformly observed to be the product of art, i.e. design. 20 --> So, ther very processes of science underscore the significance of intelligent design as a commonly observed causal foce in our world, and indeed, in many fields that are unquestionably scientific, whether pure or applied, we routinely infer to intelligent causes from signs of intelligence. 21 --> And so, on evidence not emotion, it is not a mere tantrums or wishful thinking that make adherents of design theory object to the imposition of materialist blinkers on science! CONCLUSION (PER FAIR COMMENT): The sort of specious objections and sophistical rhetoric we see above only turn up when the a priori assertions and assumptions of evolutionary materialism are under threat of rejection or refutation. _________________ Sooner, surely, you can do better than this. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 8, 2010
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Sooner: Pardon, your radical relativism is on painfully glaring display, with horrible potential real-world implications (as Plato pointed to ever so long ago in The Laws, Bk X c 360 BC):
Re 13: Legal institutions blind judges of the facts to certain sorts of evidence. The primary objective is administration of justice, not determination of reality . . . . Scientific institutions blind scientists to certain sorts of evidence. The primary objective is to generate explanations that are of utility in prediction and control of the material world, not to determine what is real in any metaphysical sense . . . . No matter how many people report their intuitive sense of using intelligence to create information that serves their purposes, such godlike activity is not publicly observable. The reports are “hearsay evidence,” inadmissible in the “court” of science. An immaterial, purposive, creative intelligence is as unpredictable and uncontrollable as a demon in the chemistry lab, and is just as useless in scientific explanations. ID advocates are upset with the institution of science because its “rules of evidence” exclude their intuitions. No matter that scientific explanation has extended our capabilities of prediction and control fabulously, they complain that it deviates from what they believe to be “real.” The problem is not in the science, but in their unwillingness to acknowledge that science needs blinders, much as justice needs a blindfold.
1 --> First, I hardly need to more than pause to note that Mr Arrington (a practising attorney at law)) is hardly an amateur court watcher! And, that the case in view in the original post, the issue was truth: that which says of what is, that it is, and of what is not that it is not, as Aristotle ever so aptly put it long ago. 2 --> Barry's case aptly shows the vital importance of truth to justice, and why injustice is ever so often built on willful denial or distortion of the truth, with intent to mislead, i.e. LYING. 3 --> Of course, in courts, there are rules of evidence and procedures of appeal etc that are designed to as far as possible protect the weak and the innocent in a world in which error is possible and fraud or false accusation a too common reality. 4 --> That is important, but a secondary issue that you have exploited rhetorically to project the destructive, radically relativist, cynical idea that Justice is not concerned to find out the credible truth as a basis for sanction of the guilty and protection of the innocent; in light of what credibly really happened. 5 --> In short, your attempt to drive a wedge between justice and truth fails, and is utterly revealing. (Onlookers, would you [as an innocent person] want to be judged in a system that made no serious and fair effort to find out whether or not you really did the crime?) 6 --> Next, there is a fast glide over to science: "Scientific institutions blind scientists to certain sorts of evidence . . . . science needs blinders, much as justice needs a blindfold." 7 --> Not so fast! Science, like justice, may err, but the foundation of credibility for science is that it makes a fair and serious effort to identify the true facts of observation and to explain them, however provisionally, in a way that seeks to discover the truth about what is happening in our common world. Failing that, science soon becomes little more than a myth-manufacturing apparatus, no better than a tool for materialist magicians and high priests, who impose their favoured stories by the power of the new de Facto Magisterium. 8 --> And, indeed, that is precisely what your allusion to "demons" implies. For, the reference is to Sagan's book, The Demon haunted World; and by extension Lewontin's well known review in the Jan 1997 NYRB:
. . . to put a correct view of the universe into people's heads we must first get an incorrect view out . . .   the problem is to get them to reject irrational and supernatural explanations of the world, the demons that exist only in their imaginations, and to accept a social and intellectual apparatus, Science, as the only begetter of truth . . . . To Sagan, as to all but a few other scientists, it is self-evident that the practices of science provide the surest method of putting us in contact with physical reality, and that, in contrast, the demon-haunted world rests on a set of beliefs and behaviors that fail every reasonable test . . . .  It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. [“Billions and Billions of Demons,” NYRB, January 9, 1997. Bold emphasis added.]
[ . . . ]kairosfocus
May 8, 2010
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Phaedros, Here are some references you might find helpful for your chemistry friend: Carbon is the first of the "heavy" elements that is exclusively formed in the interiors of stars. The delicate balance at which carbon is synthesized in stars is truly a work of art. Fred Hoyle (1915-2001), a famed astrophysicist, is the scientist who established the nucleo-synthesis of heavier elements as mathematically valid in 1946. When Sir Fred discovered the stunning precision with which carbon is synthesized in stars he stated: "A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a superintellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature. The numbers one calculates from the facts seem to me so overwhelming as to put this conclusion almost beyond question.” Every class of elements that exists on the periodic table of elements is necessary for complex carbon-based life to exist on earth. The three most abundant elements in the human body, Oxygen, Carbon, Hydrogen, "just so happen" to be the most abundant elements in the universe, save for helium which is inert. A truly amazing coincidence that strongly implies "the universe had us in mind all along". Even uranium the last naturally occurring element on the period table of elements is necessary for life. The heat generated by the decay of uranium is necessary to keep a molten core in the earth for an extended period of time, which is necessary for the magnetic field surrounding the earth, which in turn protects organic life from the harmful charged particles of the sun. As well, uranium decay provides the heat for tectonic activity and the turnover of the earth's crustal rocks, which is necessary to keep a proper mixture of minerals and nutrients available on the surface of the earth, which is necessary for long term life on earth. (Denton; Nature's Destiny). The Elements: Forged in Stars - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4003861 Michael Denton - We Are Stardust - Uncanny Balance Of The Elements - Fred Hoyle Atheist to Deist/Theist - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4003877 The Role of Elements in Life Processes http://www.mii.org/periodic/LifeElement.php Periodic Table - Interactive web page for each element http://www.mii.org/periodic/MIIperiodicChart.html Finely Tuned Big Bang, Elvis In The Multiverse, and the Schroedinger Equation - Granville Sewell - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4233012bornagain77
May 8, 2010
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Thanks Phaedros, I actually have a quote from her, her homepage, and a music video of Akiane's work, all referenced: "An illusion can never go faster than the speed limit of reality" Akiane - Child Prodigy Artwork homepage http://www.artakiane.com/ Music video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4204586bornagain77
May 8, 2010
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Barry - science needs to be repeatable. If I read a paper, I need to know how to repeat the work (or at least I need to be convinced that the work could be repeated). This is how we try to get over the subjectivity of the human condition. Of course, there is also interpretation of evidence, but again everything should be on the table, so even the subjective aspect of an argument is open to criticism. I wonder - what other forms of knowledge would you want to allow in science?Heinrich
May 8, 2010
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Bornagain77- Off-topic, I wonder if you've seen this, http://akiane.com/gallery.htmlPhaedros
May 7, 2010
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Barry- I was speaking to a friend of mine about the nature of science, she is one taken in by people like Dawkins and Shermer, and I said science is the freedom to examine any question or problem one can imagine or want. She said, flat out, "No it isn't." Shouldn't this be a warning sign to someone who herself is graduating with a degree in chemistry soon?Phaedros
May 7, 2010
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Sooner Emeritus: "The problem is not in the science, but in their unwillingness to acknowledge that science needs blinders." Well, at least you acknowledge that your brand of science is willfully blind to certain kinds of evidence. That admission is great progress. The next step is for you to justify that willful blindness. The justification is not, as you seem to believe, self-evident to those of us who wish to look into the corners of the universe into which you refuse to peer.Barry Arrington
May 7, 2010
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