Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Reality: The Wall You Smack Into When You’re Wrong

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I’ve been in trial the last couple of weeks, and I am just now coming up for air.  I see the debate has continued in my absence.  Alas, yet another confirmation (as if another were needed) that I am not indispensible.  Thank you to all of our posters, commenters and lurkers, who continue to make this site one of the most robust stops on the internet vis-à-vis the intelligent design debate.

 We live in a post-modern world, and the defense position at trial last week brought that dreary fact forcefully to mind. 

Without going into detail, the trial was about a contract my clients (the plaintiffs) signed in 1996.  The defendant received the benefits of his bargain and was content for 11 years.  Then, when the contract turned to my clients’ benefit in 2007, the defendant refused to pay.  Instead, he hired one of the largest law firms in the world (over 600 lawyers) to get him out of the contract, and these last several months his team of lawyers and paralegals (six strong at last count) have submitted literally hundreds of documents to the court in a feverish effort to convince the judge that – though the defendant said nothing for 11 years – the contract was unenforceable from the beginning. 

Well, that is not entirely accurate.  I should say this is the position on which the defendant finally settled after various other theories failed.  At first he claimed the contract was valid, but my clients’ calculations were wrong, and they owed him money.  When that didn’t work he claimed the entire transaction was a sham, and he knew it from the beginning.  When it came to light he had certified the transaction to the IRS in 1997, his position changed yet again.  Now, his position was that he thought the transaction was valid in the beginning, but after he reviewed the documents in connection with this case he learned he had been hoodwinked.  The transaction was always a sham, but he just hadn’t known it all these years. 

 In golf a “mulligan” is the friendly practice of letting a player get a “do over” if his tee shot goes awry.  I suppose the defendant’s lawyers thought I was going to give them a mulligan and not mention at trial the varied and inconsistent positions they had taken.  But over a million dollars was at stake, so I decided I would pass on the mulligan, and when I had the defendant on the stand the cross went something like this:

 Q.  So if I understand what you’re saying, you didn’t know there was any irregularity with the transaction when you certified it to the IRS in 1996.

 A.  That’s right.

 Q.  In fact, you’re telling me that you never knew there was the slightest problem with this transaction until you reviewed the documents produced in connection with this case.

 A.  That’s right.  I never knew.

 Q.  I have just placed in front of you the sworn affidavit you signed last September.  Do you see paragraph three there?  It says, “I believe [here I raised my voice for effect], AND HAVE ALWAYS BELIEVED, the transaction was a sham.”  My question for you is this:  Just now you testified under oath that you NEVER believed there was anything wrong with the transaction.  But last September you swore out an affidavit in which you said you ALWAYS believed the transaction was a sham.  Help me out here.  How can both of those sworn statements be true at the same time?

 This, of course, is the trial lawyer’s dream scene.  He has caught the other party making statements that simply cannot be reconciled.  Both may be false (which is the case here), but there is no way both can be true.  Needless to say, my clients are happy today.

What does this have to do with post-modernism?  Just this.  Over the last few months I have often wondered if the other side really believed they would be able to get away with just “making it up.”  That question was answered by an incident that occurred on the second day of trial.  My paralegal was in the back of a crowded courthouse elevator.  One of the defendant’s lawyers and his paralegal were in the front, and apparently they did not know my paralegal was there, because she overheard them talking about the case.  The lawyer said, “They are presenting their version of reality and we are presenting a competing version of reality.  The case will come down to which version the judge finds compelling.” 

I never thought of myself as “presenting a version of reality.”  My goal was to just get the facts out about what happened, because I have always believed that if the judge knew what actually happened we would win.  It turns out that I am hopelessly old-fashioned about these things.  In our post-modern world there are no immutable “facts” for the judge to know.  There are only competing “narratives,” and she will make her decision based upon which narrative she finds most “compelling.”  And in developing his “narrative,” a lawyer need feel no obligation to quaint outdated notions such as “what actually happened.”  There is no “what actually happened,” because reality is not fixed, objective and immutable.  No, reality is malleable, subjective and constructed. 

I like to say that reality is the practical wall you smack into when you’re theory is wrong.  And thankfully trials are nothing if not practical endeavors.  No matter what a post-modernist might say about “all reality is subjectively constructed,” the truth of the matter is they all look both ways before crossing the street.  And it turns out that judges really do try to determine “what actually happened,” and another name for “presenting a competing version of reality” is “lying under oath,” which judges tend to frown on (as the defendant found out to his dismay).

I hope our opponents who post comments on this site will keep this story in mind.  I hope they think about it the next time they are tempted to write in response to one of the arguments an ID proponent makes, “Well, that’s your reality.  My reality is different.”  It is such a hackneyed, trite and dreary expression.  Worse, it is based on a self-evidently false premise, and, as the defendant found out, it will get you in trouble if you take it seriously.

Comments
re: sooner #86 culture war: Awake and Alive" - Skillet http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gw20o0gOorIbornagain77
May 10, 2010
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KF: Once again, you have avoided the issue on the table. I stated that your comment 59 on the Fuller-Ruse failed to mention selection within the model of natural evolution. In response, you level the charge of quotemining. However, a fuller reading of the comment, which you provide, does not resolve the issue in your favor. Indeed, I summarize your comment as follows: Set up a source of random input (zener/amp) and write to a disk. You won't get a coherent webpage, therefore only intelligence can do it. Again, your comparison is intelligence to a system consisting solely of a random input without selection (or reproduction for that matter). There is nothing in the fuller comment that discusses applying a selection mechanism to your zener-amp system. So, in short, your accusation of quotemining is, at best, incorrect. But, I again forgive you for leveling such scurrilous charges against me. As for the rest of your comment, it is irrelevant to the discussion of comment 59 on the Fuller-Ruse thread, so I will give it all the attention it deserves in light of the issue at hand. Which is none.efren ts
May 10, 2010
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PS: Onlookers, in my always linked, I address the OOL here and the origin of body plan level biodiversity here. Note here on the sharpish exchange between Shapiro and Orgel on getting to a first functioning life form.kairosfocus
May 10, 2010
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kairosfocus @99, efren ts
An easy way to try would be to use a zener source and an amplifier to spew noise on a disk at random. See if you ever will get a page with at least 125 bytes of coherent information, about a 20 world paragraph.
Where is your step-wise mutation and selection process? You have your random generator, but nothing else. You are misrepresenting evolution. It is you who have built a strawman, not efren ts.Toronto
May 10, 2010
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ET: I am sorry, but you have managed to provide a capital example of what Mr Arrington was objecting to in the original post. So, the pretence at an olive branch in the midst of further propagation of a strawman fallacy based slander is not good enough. (Especially as those who make adverse comment have a plain duty of care to be accurate and fair.) In that duty, you failed and continue to fail. First, you know or should know that the model of evolution proposed by CRD et al "worked" in the main by chance variation driving variability which then allows room for natural selection;and that subsequent developments follow that basic pattern. Selection does not explain the ORIGIN of information. In short, the [functional] variation comes first, the selection after that, and by consequence of function or failure to function adequately, by contrast with other sub-populations and absolutely. So the proper first question is indeed the one I asked in posing a test of the capacity of chance to generate coded complex information as a general test of the design theory. (And the wider context was testability of design theory. Hence my proposing of a test of the capability of chance to generate FSCI, and of course we need to have FUNCTION before we can credibly select on function, instead of the sort of weaselly tactics of selecting for mere increment in proximity to a target or the like.) Now, if we are to have a cogent theory of biological origins, we must answer credibly on the source of coded, algorithmic complex bioinformation; starting with the very first body plan [OOL] and extending to the wide variety of major body plans. Which is what I addressed in what you artfully excerpted a misleading piece of above and proceeded to wrench beyond all reasonable recognition, the better to build a slander-soaked strawman and ignite it. In short, you are first and foremost guilty of: Q-U-O-T-E M-I-N-I-N-G. Let us prove that. First, look at the relevant part of the comment 59 from the Fuller vs Ruse thread:
As an example of testability [of design theory claims] with one reference but many billions of instances, try the test of the origin of web pages on the internet. It is known that communication networks suffer noise and that they can in principle generate any signal pattern. So, why not generate some noise and thereby make a coherent web page with text and images etc, properly formatted in html or whatever? An easy way to try would be to use a zener source and an amplifier to spew noise on a disk at random. See if you ever will get a page with at least 125 bytes of coherent information, about a 20 world paragraph. This illustrates the real point: it is empirically very well tested indeed, that FSCI is the product of intelligence. So much so that under normal circumstances we routinely infer from FSCI to intelligence. (And if you care to check, at 1,000 bits or 125 bytes of info, the number of possible configs exceeds the number of states the observable cosmos can have over its lifespan by something like a factor of 10^150. That’s why we can be highly confident you will not see such a text originating by lucky noise. As this thread shows, intelligent agents routinely generate such.) So, when we see codes, programs, data structures and step by step processes in the living cell, we have very good reason to infer that the best explanation is what we know is the routine source of such things. DESIGN. Cf here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJxobgkPEAo&feature=related
So, the primary and obvious reference of the excerpt and linked video is to origin of complex FUNCTIONAL information in general [hence the reference to a zener noise source]. This,in its context relates first to the informational macromolecules of the very first body plan [DNA, Ribosomes, RNA etc], i.e. origin of life. As I pointed out yesterday, at this point Darwin introduced a god as designer in public, saving speculations on warm ponds for a letter that would only be published after his death. So, on fair comment he begged the big question. And, indeed, if a god was responsible for the first life form, why should not a god be responsible for the rest, i.e. relevant major variation is by design not by chance? Thereafter, too, each new body plan will face a similar challenge to first get to the shores of an island of function, in the midst of a beyond astronomically large sea of non functional possible configurations of the informational macromolecules. Again, as I and others have repeatedly highlighted over literally years at UD, until you can credibly reach the shores of an island of function, you cannot then talk about variations among functional forms that allow for differential success of sub populations thence hill climbing to optimal performance at peaks of function. By pretending -- in spite of an always linked discussion that specifically addresses natural selection here, and a set of UD weak argument correctives that address the wider context of simplistic objections -- that the discussion I made does not address the context in which NS arises, and in fact addresses the key question commonly begged in such contexts, you have been sadly, willfully misleading and denigratory. Let me excerpt the just linked:
. . . we should observe in passing that there is also an underlying problem with the commonly encountered natural selection model, in which small variations confer significant cumulative advantages in populations,and cumulate to give the large changes that would constitute body-plan level macroevolution. To see this, let us excerpt a typical definition of natural selection:
Natural selection is the process by which favorable heritable traits become more common in successive generations of a population of reproducing organisms, and unfavorable heritable traits become less common. Natural selection acts on the phenotype, or the observable characteristics of an organism, such that individuals with favorable phenotypes are more likely to survive and reproduce than those with less favorable phenotypes. The phenotype's genetic basis . . . will increase in frequency over the following generations. Over time, this process can result in adaptations that specialize organisms for particular ecological niches and may eventually result in the emergence of new species. In other words, natural selection is the mechanism by which evolution may take place in a population of a specific organism. [Wikipedia. Emphases added.]
From this, we may immediately observe that natural selection is envisioned as a probabilistic culler of competing sub-populations with varying adaptations coming from another source [usually some form of chance-based variation]. That is, it does not cause the actual variation, it is only a term that summarises differences in likelihood of survival and reproduction and possibly resulting cumulative effects on populations across time. So, when innovations in life-forms require the origin of functionally specific, information-rich organised complexity, we are back to some form of chance variation to explain it, and soon run right back into the FSCI-origination barrier.
In short, a very big question has been begged for the past 150 years. And my remarks on it have been sitting there for many, many months or even years; linked in EVERY post I have made. ET, you have been insistent in the teeth of correction, and have scooped remarks out of context, in a situation where to begin with, you could easily have cross-checked to see what my frame of thought [and that of many other design thinkers] is. Instead, you irresponsibly scooped out of context and made a handy, slanderous denigratory caricature. Then, you have ignored step by step correction and have tried to twist around your problem to make it seem to the naively trusting onlooker that it is the undersigned who is at fault. This is willful deception. This is sad, but not atypical behaviour of evolutionary materialist advocates. What it tells the astute onlooker is that you do not have a credible case on the merits so you try to make one on the red herrings, strawmen and ad hominems. Surely, you can do better than that. Good day, sir. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 10, 2010
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Clive, Why did you delete my last comment?pelagius
May 10, 2010
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KF at 53:
On a further look at your above remarks, it seems the matter is worse: you are plainly lying, at minimum by refusing to check out relevant facts in the interests of truth and fairness.
There are two main issues embedded in my statement. First, my judgement on the absolute length and relative signal to noise ratio of your posts. Inasmuch as that is a judgement (one that I am apparently not alone in holding), it obviously cannot be a lie. So, I can only conclude the charge of lying is related to my statement that you proposed a model for evolution in another thread that failed to include selection. In comment 59 in the Fuller vs. Ruse thread you wrote:
An easy way to try would be to use a zener source and an amplifier to spew noise on a disk at random. See if you ever will get a page with at least 125 bytes of coherent information, about a 20 world paragraph.
As onlookers can plainly see that paragraph introduces only a source of variation, but not selection. So, whether or not you have referenced selection in one of your other epic tomes is quite irrelevant. The comment referenced was correctly characterized. Protestations to the contrary coupled with an attack on my honesty are clearly a red herring soaked in the oil of ad hominem and set ablaze to obscure the discussion in the acrid smoke of burning fish oil. So, it would seem that *you*, sir, owe *me* an apology. However, I neither expect nor request such an apology. I am more amused than aggrieved. However, far be it for me to leave on such a note. Let me offer an olive branch to you by forgiving you for your slight on my character.efren ts
May 10, 2010
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Ah, well. Dyslexia and insomnia are not a good mix this morning.kairosfocus
May 10, 2010
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PPS: Evidently 07 and Aleta prefer the entertainment of manipulate rhetoric to the relatively ponderous step by step systematic laying out of mere facts and logical inferences on the merits, with linked further substantiation. I simply note in response, that I have not set out to entertain or persuade by distractive rhetorical devices, but to lay out what responsible thinking must engage. (Cf. Barry's remarks in the original post.) PPPS: I seem to have forgotten to link a layout diagram of an oil refinery.kairosfocus
May 10, 2010
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8 --> Do we see time? Energy? Mass? Temperature? Luminous flux? Electric potential difference? Electrons? Or, any other number of highly important physically or instrumentally manifested and credibly very real quantities, factors, forces or entities? Plainly, no. 9 --> In short, the objection is plainly selectively hyperskeptical. And, self-refuting. For, if purpose's invisibility is a proof of its non-existence, then the purposeful selection of the symbols SE used to make his post is mere happenstance of lucky noise and blind mechanical force, without any basis in evidence, truth, or rationality. 10 --> Leibniz put his finger on the problem aptly, nearly 400 years ago, in his well known analogy of the Mill:
The Monadology, 17. It must be confessed, however, that perception, and that which depends upon it, are inexplicable by mechanical causes, that is to say, by figures and motions. Supposing that there were a machine whose structure produced thought, sensation, and perception, we could conceive of it as increased in size with the same proportions until one was able to enter into its interior, as he would into a mill. Now, on going into it he would find only pieces working upon one another, but never would he find anything to explain perception. It is accordingly in the simple substance, and not in the compound nor in a machine that the perception is to be sought. Furthermore, there is nothing besides perceptions and their changes to be found in the simple substance. And it is in these alone that all the internal activities of the simple substance can consist.
11 --> In short, the attempt to reduce reasoned thought to ever evolving mechanical chains of force and interaction and survival of the fittest for the moment, on whatever accident of circumstances setup the initial conditions, ends up in wheels grinding away, i.e it does not explain the organisation that makes the grinding away of the wheels serve a goal or fulfill a requisite of logical ground and consequent, with grounds being well-warranted facts. Mechanism qua mechanism, is utterly irrelevant to and cannot ground reason, warrant validity and purposeful decision; all of which are requisites of reason. 12 --> Updating to modern computer, cybernetics and mechatronics, the logic of a program and the correctly organised functionality of a required set of physical circuits in an Arithmetic and Logical Unit are not explained by the voltages in circuits or the orientation of magnetic particles. 13 --> Indeed, Eng Derek Smith of Wales provides a good cybernetic model, by envisioning a multiple input, multiple output control loop. 14 --> In the loop we have a two-tier controller: (i) an i/o controller that manages the mechanical interactions, and (ii) a supervisory controller that provides a direction, a creatively imagined path to the goal, and a moment by moment expectation of internal states and perceptions of external circumstances. 15 --> This, so that efference copy action on sensing actual observation and proprioception of internal states will adapt the actual path to the intended one. 16 --> That is, we have not just a logic controller but a creative, imaginative, knowledgeable input of the intended path. And, the interaction between the observed and experienced state and the desired one along the path, is INFORMATIONAL AND PERCEPTUAL. 17 --> That is, we have an architecture that opens up room for BOTH R Daneel Olivaaw the programmed positronic robot and for a mind that needs not be material, so long as it can exert quantum-level influences on the i/o controller. 18 --> The general testimony of our experience [think of how we try to exert moral suasion one on the other, even atheists such as SE has declared himself to be, IIRC (and Toronto, etc))] is that we are not pre-programmed, but significantly -- though not absolutely -- free creatures, under moral government. 19 --> That is, we are men and women capable of true love, not robots programmed to obey somebody's laws of robotics. With all the responsibility that that entails. 20 --> And, we have no good reason to infer that wheels grinding against one another in a mill cannot generate such real choice. Similarly, we have no good reason to conclude that chance plus mechanical necessity without intelligent direction can generate functionally specific complex organisation and information, whether programs, or linguistic communication, or diagrams, or fine-tuned universes that set up the conditions for carbon-chemistry life, or the functionally complex oranisation and algorithms and codes involved in such cell based life. 21 --> But, we have abundant reason to see that intelligence routinely produces such FSCI, and whether an engineer's design sketch, or the information systrems in the cell, or the fine tuning of the cosmos, we have every reason to infer to intelligence and art. 22 --> In the latter case, we have very good reason indeed to further infer -- on the grounds that what begins has a cause and that something cannot cause itself as a direct result -- that the cause of matter was not material. 23 --> That is, mind -- indeed, as Plato put it in The Laws Bk X, Soul -- is before matter, and its causal ground; indeed, its Creator. _________________ GEM of TKI PS: Tut, tut; that web search was revealing, on what has now moved to the top of the search list for The Laws. Why are you all looking for The Laws as discussed on Wikipedia -- what your friendly local anonymous materialist has to say -- when you could actually read what one of the greatest minds ever had to say? (Or, are you all trying to find some sort of rebuttal . . . lotsa luck, given the career of Alcibiades.)kairosfocus
May 10, 2010
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Onlookers (and Above and SE): I will say little on the attempt to commit a well-poisoning genetic fallacy against design theory, save to endorse Stephen's remarks. Let's juts add, that the Barbara Forrest narrative is a willful, subject5-switching, red herring and strawman based smearing slander -- sadly, par for the evolutionary materialist course. Design theory as a scientific movement dates to the turn of the 1980's, and with precursors to the 1950's and beyond [e.g. the von Neumann replicator analysis which none of the evolutionary materialist advocates above have been willing to address on the merits, is late 1940's], so it is not an attempt to circumvent US Supreme Court rulings a la 1987. Indeed, the foundational technical work of design theory, TMLO by Thaxton et al, dates to 1984. But, there is a matter that needs some clarification.
Re: SE, 85: If we watch as an engineer working with a pad and pencil generates a good solution to an engineering problem, we do not see “intelligence” and we do not see purpose. We certainly do not see immaterial intelligence. We see pencil marks on paper, not information, though we may be informed in various ways by the marks, depending on our various understandings of what the engineer is doing. The information is not “out there,” as a particular communal observation. There is not a basis in our communal observation for saying that immaterial intelligence created information.
1 --> As I cited above from J S Wicken, a sketch, let's say of a circuit design [and associated calculations, e.g. how to bias an amplifier ckt or arrange voltage stabilisation for a power supply!], will exhibit functionally complex and specific organisation, as well as the use of symbols according to certain conventions or rules; i.e. language. (The same would hold for say the process layout diagram for an oil refinery. Which makes a very interesting comparison to the metabolic reaction network for a living cell, which is far more functionally integrated, specific and complex.) 2 --> That is, it will fit a rather specific "wiring diagram," and selection of components; using coded symbols according to relevant conventions. 3 --> And BTW, this immediately demolishes the rhetorical distraction of pointing to squiggles on paper and saying "We see pencil marks on paper, not information." For, what we see are symbols arranged according to very definite rules, i.e. codes and modulation of carriers, which are in fact information-rich. Thus, we are "informed by" such because we use our active, learning minds to help us understand the relevant language, whether verbal or graphical. (And immediately, we see how information points beyond the concrete to the reality of the symbolic, the abstract and the mental; cutting sharply across and exposing the self referential incoherence of evolutionary materialist reductionism. The evo mat thinker, to try to deny significance tot he mind beyond matter, must appeal to the validity of language and reasoning, which on his terms may only reflect the blind fortuitous outcomes of chance plus mechanical necessity. More later, from Leibniz.) 4 --> From that engineering sketch, we generate a table of nodes and connexions, which naturally defines the amount of related semantic, functional information in bits. For a surprisingly simple circuit, that quantum of information will soon race well beyond 1,000 bits. That is, well beyond a threshold where the random walk search capacity of the observed universe becomes hopelessly inadequate. 5 --> So, just as we routinely infer to design from sufficiently long text strings in contextually responsive English are artifacts of intelligence, we easily see that design sketches are just that, i.e. designs. And we do so, not on emotions whipped up in a debate or rhetorical tactics of persuasion or appeals to blind recognition of a body of authorities, but on objective, observable, factual signs of design and principles of inference to best, empirically anchored explanation. 6 --> Notice, onlookers, how evolutionary materialist, Darwinist advocates repeatedly duck and divert from this specific issue of FSCI as a reliable empirical sign of intelligence and of art. 7 --> Now, too, we see the characteristic, self-referentially incoherent materialistic reductionism at work: "we do not see purpose. We certainly do not see immaterial intelligence . . ." [ . . . ]kairosfocus
May 10, 2010
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above, You asked me on a previous thread about the willful capacity for denial by the opponents of ID. You now have your answer. Intelligence and information are used to deny that intelligence and information are real/useful/relevant/causal/etc (insert whatever context is necessary at the moment). What more could one ask for? - - - - - - Well don't even ask, because there is plenty more: Sooner deciphered Intuition is worthless in scientific investigation (apparently Kepler, Maxwell, Pasture, Newton, Crick, and Einstein were just flat wrong. None of them needed to conceive of possible answers prior to finding them. Such crutches are quite obviously unnecessary to good science. Wisdom has been spoken). Abstractions of reality (ie. perhaps like language written on a paper by an engineer solving a problem) may inform us, but its not information. (Of course, anyone searching for information on this topic needn't read this written conclusion, it contains no information). An engineer solving a problem by working through constraints and generating a solution is not an example of purpose (for the completely obvious reason that we cannot actually see purpose. Purpose, like gravity, and the new car behind door number three do not exist because they are not seen). There is no observable basis for saying that intelligence creates information. (This is of course completely obvious as an unassailable fact. Just name one example of information which was created by intelligence). How do you know the engineer was intelligent? It behaved intelligently. And how do you explain the intelligent behavior? The engineer was intelligent. (So how do you know the engineer was alive? It moved. And how do you explain the movement? It was alive). If you cut open an animal, you will no more find its intelligence than you will its love. Intelligence and love are both well known examples of hypothetical constructs. (Of course, not looking for its intelligence, you will not find its mother either. This leads to a great axiom regarding cadavers in general: what is not found inside exist only as a conditional concept). - - - - - - - "There’s no neat, little category for my belief system" /snortUpright BiPed
May 10, 2010
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I agree with Aleta @85. I generally enjoy following the discussions here, but I always give up when kairofocus and BA77 and others resort to those long winded link-laden posts. I've tried reading some of them but they don't hold the attention. A site like this needs to be thought of as a discussion, not a series of connected lectures. It just gets boring otherwise. That's my opinion as an interested follower.zeroseven
May 9, 2010
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above:
Going back to your engineer example, you can argue, like you have, that it’s not easy to detect intelligence, nevertheless, the problem solving undertaken by the engineer was done intelligently by an intelligent agent. The truth is the truth. To say that it was not the case would be to hold an obscurantist attitude.
I told you that casual talk about intelligence would not hold up in rigorous explanation, and you've dived right into circularity: "was done intelligently by an intelligent agent." Now how do you know the engineer was intelligent? It behaved intelligently. And how do you explain the intelligent behavior? The engineer was intelligent. If you cut open an animal, you will no more find its intelligence than you will its love. Intelligence and love are both well known examples of hypothetical constructs. They are abstractions that are sometimes useful, with careful definition, in scientific definition. Now, you may want to stamp your foot and declare, "Oh, yes, intelligence is real. You're just an obscurantist. All my friends say so, too." Then I'm going to start taking you down a list of hypothetical constructs, starting with love, and ask you why they are not real. The reason it's so easy to get people to buy into the notion that intelligence is immaterial is that hypothetical constructs are abstractions. You've neglected to speak at all to the notion that intelligence creates information for a purpose. That is crucial to ID, as Dembski and Marks acknowledge. ======= There's no neat, little category for my belief system.Sooner Emeritus
May 9, 2010
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Sooner at 83, The semiotic arrangement of cytosine-thymine-adenine in DNA results in the addition of Leucine during protein synthesis. That s almost the exact same thing as a "culture war". Its no wonder you find it hard to seperate the two.Upright BiPed
May 9, 2010
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@Sooner #83 I understand your concern regarding human ability and design detection as it pertains to intelligence. I also understand your concern regarding the method(s) of science. I don’t want to speak on behalf of everyone, but my understanding is that ID advocates maintain that intelligence can be inferred, much like other inferences made in science, by introducing a specific design hypothesis. And I think that’s what they are in fact proposing with the concept of FCSI. I also understand the nature of the problem revolving ID and the complexities involved but at the same time, as it has been said here by Kairosfocus and many others, there are significant problems with the materialistic account as well. Going back to your engineer example, you can argue, like you have, that it’s not easy to detect intelligence, nevertheless, the problem solving undertaken by the engineer was done intelligently by an intelligent agent. The truth is the truth. To say that it was not the case would be to hold an obscurantist attitude. So like I said earlier we (all sides) need to address the question of whether whether science represents merely an instrumentalist method (or variety of methods) or whether it is a search for truth. I think that’s where the issue lies and so long as that remains unanswered there will always be a problem. #84 -“Those guys are all over the place, philosophically, so that’s quite a remarkable statement. IDers are constantly calling on us just to look at the evidence, and the point is that there is no way to look without bias. Even their beloved Popper says so” I agree. But that is the case with all sides is it not? IDers are biased, materialists are biased… What’s new? Anyways, I seem to agree with some of the things you are saying and appreciate the honesty. I’m not sure if you chose not to answer or forgot, but I asked you what your position was on the matter. From reading some of your posts I could not decipher if you’re supporting a materialistic or a Theistic perspective on evolution. Do you mind clearing that up? I’m just curious. You don’t have to answer if you don’t feel comfortable.above
May 9, 2010
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---sooner emeritus: "I spent a lot of time trying to make sense of the theory of ID without taking its origins into account. Now I feel somewhat offended, because I did my best to be fair, and see clearly that everything about the theory makes sense only in the context of the “culture war.” Yes, it sounds like you were really sweating blood in your heroic attempt to differentiate between the ID movement, which has everything to do with the culture war, and ID science, which has nothing to do with the culture war. That you failed to make that distinction really isn't very important. What matters most is that you spent a lot of time trying "to make sense of it" and, as we all know, it is if effort that counts, not the final result. As anyone who cares knows, one cannot extract a social movement from "specified complexity" and "irreducible complexity," but you may be excused for thinking so because you did, after all, give it your all.StephenB
May 9, 2010
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above (64):
We often forget that the methods of science are human constructs and like to assume that they are in some sense infallibly correlated to reality.
Going further (from the SEP article I linked to previously):
Hanson, Popper, Kuhn, and Feyerabend agreed that all observation is theory-laden, so that there is no theory-neutral observational language. [emphasis original]
Those guys are all over the place, philosophically, so that's quite a remarkable statement. IDers are constantly calling on us just to look at the evidence, and the point is that there is no way to look without bias. Even their beloved Popper says so.
Seversky above is a good case in point, who appears to conflate methodological and ontological materialism and consequently rewards the latter (which is an a priori assumption) with the phenomenal success of the former.
I agree that successes of science (and technology) under the assumption of materialism are not evidence for ontological materialism. But I thought Seversky might have been saying something a bit more subtle than that with his particular wording. He referred to warrant of the assumption.Sooner Emeritus
May 9, 2010
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above (64):
I am open to both ID and evolution but I am more interested in seeing where the discussion between the two will go.
I spent a lot of time trying to make sense of the theory of ID without taking its origins into account. Now I feel somewhat offended, because I did my best to be fair, and see clearly that everything about the theory makes sense only in the context of the "culture war." If we watch as an engineer working with a pad and pencil generates a good solution to an engineering problem, we do not see "intelligence" and we do not see purpose. We certainly do not see immaterial intelligence. We see pencil marks on paper, not information, though we may be informed in various ways by the marks, depending on our various understandings of what the engineer is doing. The information is not "out there," as a particular communal observation. There is not a basis in our communal observation for saying that immaterial intelligence created information. And, left to your own expression of your intuition of what would have allowed you to do what we saw the engineer do, you would never say it that way. Chances are good that you say that that the engineer used her intelligence to solve the problem. (This intuition, like many others, is worthless in scientific investigation.) The fancy claim of what "we" saw is presented to you by people who are trying to salvage the notion that science can address creation by immaterial entities. Their argument hinges on getting you to accept that their elaboration on your intuition is what "really" goes on when you solve a problem, and that our communal observation is equivalent to your "properly understood" intuition. Everyone who watched the engineer should "just know" that they observed going on with someone else what you're now convinced goes on inside you. But to force a communal observation to comport with an elaborate intuition is a mighty strange kind of science -- especially when members of the community are not allowed to object that a spirit is being planted in the engineer. I don't claim infallibility. But I do claim honesty. No rhetorical games here.Sooner Emeritus
May 9, 2010
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Sir Fred's rationale for his panspermia:
"If at our present level of sophistication we were to attempt a new material representation of ourselves, doubtless we would try for a grandiose solution all in one shot, an explicit new creature complete in itself, like the Greek story of Pygmalion, or like novices with a computer who almost invariably get themselves into a tangle by attempting to write a large complex program all in one go. The practised expert on the other hand, builds a large complex computer program from many sub-units, subroutines as they are called. Microorganisms and genetic fragments are the subroutines of biology, existing throughout space in prodigious numbers, riding everywhere on the light pressure of the stars. Because the correct logical procedure is to build upwards from precisely formed subroutines, we on the Earth had to evolve from a seemingly elementary starting point." (p.34)
kairosfocus
May 9, 2010
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Above: yup. Sadly. DaveScot played a very important role in setting up a forum that was reasonable; loo. . . oong story. Gkairosfocus
May 9, 2010
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PS: I would of course distinguish complex, functionally specific organisation from order. Like J S Wicken put it in 1979:
Organized’ systems are to be carefully distinguished from ‘ordered’ systems.  Neither kind of system is ‘random,’ but whereas ordered systems are generated according to simple algorithms [i.e. “simple” force laws acting on objects starting from arbitrary and common- place initial conditions] and therefore lack complexity, organized systems must be assembled element by element according to an [originally . . . ] external ‘wiring diagram’ with a high information content . . . Organization, then, is functional complexity and carries information. It is non-random by design or by selection, rather than by the a priori necessity of crystallographic ‘order.’ [“The Generation of Complexity in Evolution: A Thermodynamic and Information-Theoretical Discussion,” Journal of Theoretical Biology, 77 (April 1979): p. 353, of pp. 349-65. (Emphases and notes added. Nb: “originally” is added to highlight that for self-replicating systems, the blue print can be built-in.)]
kairosfocus
May 9, 2010
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@kairosfocus -"I have not gone to the usual atheist web sites because of their major civility and rationality problems" That has been my experience as well at some of those sites. The lack of civility is certainly a major problem. A few months ago I was browsing the dawkins.net site and two materialists/atheist were arguing on a darwinist issue that they both agreed on but proposed different explanatory models. The viscousness and vitriol with which they were attacking each other was profound. That is the exact same way I have seen non-atheists being treated on that site. It's just one insult after another. If they can't be civil among themselves, while holding the same beliefs, how is one to expect them to be civil to others? Of course, I have also seen sensible individuals posting there and trying to be civil, but the general impression I got was a rather negative one.above
May 9, 2010
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Seversky: Strawman, again. The aspects of exobiology that Sir Fred addressed in his writings at the turn of the 1980's were well within the ambit of a highly knowledgeable phsyicist. Remember, once we look at origin of life issues and related concerns, we are looking at chemistry, polymer dynamics, thermodynamics, cybernetics, and information issues. Physicists and related scientists are routinely qualified to speak to any and all of these, most biologists are not. That is the can of worms that was opened once DNA was identified as a complex, polymer based, digital informational macromolecule. In short, biology and relatged biochemistry opened up a doorway to other provinces of science, and the dominant theories of biology have not fared well in light of the cluster of insights form such fields. For a useful survey by Thaxton et al at about the same time, cf here. This book is the technical start point for the modern Design theory. Hoyle's work was somewhat tangential but he raises interesting points and issues. To get a flavour for what he had to say, let us excerpt his 1982 Omni Lecture at the Royal Institution, London, entitled "Evolution from Space,"Omni Lecture at the Royal Institution, London, entitled "Evolution from Space," and later printed as a book:
Once we see that life is cosmic it is sensible to suppose that intelligence is cosmic. Now problems of order, such as the sequences of amino acids in the chains which constitute the enzymes and other proteins, are precisely the problems that become easy once a directed intelligence enters the picture, as was recognised long ago by James Clerk Maxwell in his invention of what is known in physics as the Maxwell demon. The difference between an intelligent ordering, whether of words, fruit boxes, amino acids, or the Rubik cube, and merely random shufflings can be fantastically large, even as large as a number that would fill the whole volume of Shakespeare's plays with its zeros. So if one proceeds directly and straightforwardly in this matter, without being deflected by a fear of incurring the wrath of scientific opinion, one arrives at the conclusion that biomaterials with their amazing measure or order must be the outcome of intelligent design [my emphasis]. No other possibility I have been able to think of in pondering this issue over quite a long time seems to me to have anything like as high a possibility of being true." (27-28)
See my point? Until you can answer cogently to the information, statistical thermodynamics and related issues, you cannot claim the blanket authority of evolutionary materialist biologists to dismiss these issues. In fact, you comment above begins to come across as a turnabout false accusation fallacy, not just a strawman. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 9, 2010
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kairosfocus @ 76
PS: Sir Fred Hoyle, one of my personal scientific heroes, holds a Nobel Equivalent Prize, for his work in Astrophysics...
No one is denying Hoyle's stature or accomplishments in astronomy but to cite his opinions as authoritative in the field of biology is to commit the fallacy of appealing to inappropriate authority.Seversky
May 9, 2010
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PS: Sir Fred Hoyle, one of my personal scientific heroes, holds a Nobel Equivalent Prize, for his work in Astrophysics, much of which elucidated fundamental issues in universe [he started the ball rolling on finetuning, and the term "big bang" is his, but of course he was trying to dismiss it, as he championed the now dead Steady State model], galaxy, star and planetary system formation [e.g. his magnetic braking ideas on how we get the apparently conflicting angular momentum and mass distributions in our solar system]. In the course of that he had to address what is now spoken of as exobiology. Much of the above is live donkeys kicking a safely dead lion.kairosfocus
May 9, 2010
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Above: We have Darwinists aplenty here at UD, and the above has been presented in one form or another for years. Though the further details on the von Neumann architecture and the remarks on Plato are relatively new, as were remarks on nodes and arcs diagrams as a way to get from complex spatial organisation to bit depth a few weeks ago. Indeed some of it is now in our UD weak argument correctives and glossary. I have not gone to the usual atheist web sites because of their major civility and rationality problems. So, I have chosen where there would be a reasonable and sufficiently regulated exchange not to become the sort of personally abusive mess I describe here. If Darwinists had a serious answer, they could post it here or simply link to it here. (And when I have seen links to places like True Origin and Antievo [which often tracks and tries to rebut what happens here], the precise pattern of fallacies I have come to call the trifecta has been characteristic. What usually happens here, under threat of expulsion or moderation for persistent nastiness and irrelevance, is a milder form. For years, by and large, they have not. No prizes for guessing why. Plato put his finger on it 2,300 years ago. G'day GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 9, 2010
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kairosfocus @73, I'll raise a friendly disagreement, as the best 8-bit was the Zilog Z80! I would like to engage more of your points but how can I justify writing something you won't see. My comment @64 still hasn't appeared. When it does, it will magically appear back there at position 64, and to be fair, I don't think anybody is going to go back to look for it since you won't see any indication in recent comments that it's there.Toronto
May 9, 2010
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@borne #67 Duh, let’s see; go to the typical atheist forum and try to find valid answers for what kairos wrote and what do you find? Tons of strawman arguments, tons of mere denial tons of answers that actually prove his points of course and tons of blatant ignorant, stupidity -a la Dawkins, Harris et al.. Has kairosfocus ever presented his challenges on a materialist/atheist forum? I would be interested in reading the responses he got because here on UD, I haven’t seen any compelling answers to his challenges. Kairosfocus, have you had this discussion elsewhere? Borne, what exactly are you referring to with: “The only way to even attempt to refute the points against atheism’s obligatory relativism is by assuming that atheism is false, that relativism is false. But they try anyway while never even realizing their self contradictions!!” I too find materialism/atheism to be internally incoherent. I am interested in hearing what *your* reasons are and why. Do you mind elaborating a little bit more on that if you have the time? @seversky If I am not mistaken, Hoyle's rejection of darwinism is based on mathematics, of which he was very knowledgeable of. Unless you want to claim that mathematics is irrelevant in biology then Borne's point is not undermined by your response. Not in the least.above
May 9, 2010
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Stephen Thanks. As you know, for months I have contributed zero words at UD, even when I passed by and followed threads. This past week, I decided to step back in for a few days, to see if there had been progress on the other side. Plainly, not. And when ET decided to slander and strawmannise me through begging the priority question of origin of information [which even Darwin knew comes before selection of variants], I felt it necessary to address his claims step by step. Of ocurse, making a methodical answer is often dismissed these days, as a sneer or a quip will do if reality boils down to perceptions and persuasion. But, that radical relativist folly is just what Barry exposed in the original post. So, evolutionary materialism advocates: can you address the von Neumann replicator on the merits? The need to get to funcitonally specific complex information before biological organisms can work, ab initio or in novel body plans? And more? Can you show that lucky noise is a credible source of such functional info, and on what empirical evidence? [It is not in serious dispute that intelligence can create codes, languages, algorithms, programs, data structures etc.] GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 9, 2010
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