Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Reality: The Wall You Smack Into When You’re Wrong

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I’ve been in trial the last couple of weeks, and I am just now coming up for air.  I see the debate has continued in my absence.  Alas, yet another confirmation (as if another were needed) that I am not indispensible.  Thank you to all of our posters, commenters and lurkers, who continue to make this site one of the most robust stops on the internet vis-à-vis the intelligent design debate.

 We live in a post-modern world, and the defense position at trial last week brought that dreary fact forcefully to mind. 

Without going into detail, the trial was about a contract my clients (the plaintiffs) signed in 1996.  The defendant received the benefits of his bargain and was content for 11 years.  Then, when the contract turned to my clients’ benefit in 2007, the defendant refused to pay.  Instead, he hired one of the largest law firms in the world (over 600 lawyers) to get him out of the contract, and these last several months his team of lawyers and paralegals (six strong at last count) have submitted literally hundreds of documents to the court in a feverish effort to convince the judge that – though the defendant said nothing for 11 years – the contract was unenforceable from the beginning. 

Well, that is not entirely accurate.  I should say this is the position on which the defendant finally settled after various other theories failed.  At first he claimed the contract was valid, but my clients’ calculations were wrong, and they owed him money.  When that didn’t work he claimed the entire transaction was a sham, and he knew it from the beginning.  When it came to light he had certified the transaction to the IRS in 1997, his position changed yet again.  Now, his position was that he thought the transaction was valid in the beginning, but after he reviewed the documents in connection with this case he learned he had been hoodwinked.  The transaction was always a sham, but he just hadn’t known it all these years. 

 In golf a “mulligan” is the friendly practice of letting a player get a “do over” if his tee shot goes awry.  I suppose the defendant’s lawyers thought I was going to give them a mulligan and not mention at trial the varied and inconsistent positions they had taken.  But over a million dollars was at stake, so I decided I would pass on the mulligan, and when I had the defendant on the stand the cross went something like this:

 Q.  So if I understand what you’re saying, you didn’t know there was any irregularity with the transaction when you certified it to the IRS in 1996.

 A.  That’s right.

 Q.  In fact, you’re telling me that you never knew there was the slightest problem with this transaction until you reviewed the documents produced in connection with this case.

 A.  That’s right.  I never knew.

 Q.  I have just placed in front of you the sworn affidavit you signed last September.  Do you see paragraph three there?  It says, “I believe [here I raised my voice for effect], AND HAVE ALWAYS BELIEVED, the transaction was a sham.”  My question for you is this:  Just now you testified under oath that you NEVER believed there was anything wrong with the transaction.  But last September you swore out an affidavit in which you said you ALWAYS believed the transaction was a sham.  Help me out here.  How can both of those sworn statements be true at the same time?

 This, of course, is the trial lawyer’s dream scene.  He has caught the other party making statements that simply cannot be reconciled.  Both may be false (which is the case here), but there is no way both can be true.  Needless to say, my clients are happy today.

What does this have to do with post-modernism?  Just this.  Over the last few months I have often wondered if the other side really believed they would be able to get away with just “making it up.”  That question was answered by an incident that occurred on the second day of trial.  My paralegal was in the back of a crowded courthouse elevator.  One of the defendant’s lawyers and his paralegal were in the front, and apparently they did not know my paralegal was there, because she overheard them talking about the case.  The lawyer said, “They are presenting their version of reality and we are presenting a competing version of reality.  The case will come down to which version the judge finds compelling.” 

I never thought of myself as “presenting a version of reality.”  My goal was to just get the facts out about what happened, because I have always believed that if the judge knew what actually happened we would win.  It turns out that I am hopelessly old-fashioned about these things.  In our post-modern world there are no immutable “facts” for the judge to know.  There are only competing “narratives,” and she will make her decision based upon which narrative she finds most “compelling.”  And in developing his “narrative,” a lawyer need feel no obligation to quaint outdated notions such as “what actually happened.”  There is no “what actually happened,” because reality is not fixed, objective and immutable.  No, reality is malleable, subjective and constructed. 

I like to say that reality is the practical wall you smack into when you’re theory is wrong.  And thankfully trials are nothing if not practical endeavors.  No matter what a post-modernist might say about “all reality is subjectively constructed,” the truth of the matter is they all look both ways before crossing the street.  And it turns out that judges really do try to determine “what actually happened,” and another name for “presenting a competing version of reality” is “lying under oath,” which judges tend to frown on (as the defendant found out to his dismay).

I hope our opponents who post comments on this site will keep this story in mind.  I hope they think about it the next time they are tempted to write in response to one of the arguments an ID proponent makes, “Well, that’s your reality.  My reality is different.”  It is such a hackneyed, trite and dreary expression.  Worse, it is based on a self-evidently false premise, and, as the defendant found out, it will get you in trouble if you take it seriously.

Comments
PS: I am not retreating into emptyu charges of strawmannism T, as you can see above I substantiate a cleqr case in point. And, as for it taking a book-length rebuttal to respond to what I have had to say, why not check out the short book-length statement that is always linked to every post I make here? For, i believe that is the basic length required to address the range of issues responsibly -- i.e. every comment here is in effect a footnote to the always linked briefing note. [If you had a cogent, coherent statement of the case for evolutionary materialism that had solid empirical evidence on the key issues, you would not have a Design Theory Movement to deal with. FYI, I originally tried out ID ideas as a for argument position, but then saw that they made a lot of sense, of things that did not make sense otherwise. And, as one familiar with 741's 4000 B's and 7400's, you will know the routine source of the complex functional organisation of these entities, and of their proper function in circuits; and what it takes to organise those circuits, starting with the rail power supplies. FF/N: I used to read 6800 and 6809 hexcode, too. I still think the latter was the best 8 bitter out there. Or counting Intel 8088 style, with minor exaggeration, 16/8!]kairosfocus
May 9, 2010
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Efren ts: Toronto: Pelagius After witnessing all these complaints about the length of kairosfocus’ posts, I have to ask the obvious question: How sour can grapes get? It is, indeed, comical to watch those who have nothing to say, except to challenge what others say, complain about the number of words an author uses. If you are overwhelmed by two or three pages of substantive prose, choose a paragraph or two that you can handle and then try to refute the points. It is not necessary to comment on every word that someone puts on the public record. Every writer has a different style, and some go into more detail than others, depending on his overall objective. If you are going to insinuate that some of kairosfocus’ information is irrelevant or extraneous, please provide evidence of that fact. Your time would be better spent dealing with the substance of what has been said to the extent that you can absorb it. Be thankful that ID proponents have a theme and a wide variety of thought stimulators that you can attack because without them your options would be severely limited. Cynics who sneer at the prospect that some kind of truth exists generally make for very poor authors when they have to create their own context. Having nothing to say, they survive only by leeching off the substance of those who do have something to say. On the matter of continuity, I contend that kairosfocus' strategic use of repetition is a very good thing. Lewontin’s famous comment about not “allowing a Divine foot in the door,” really does summarize the position of most Darwinist bureaucrats. As far as I am concerned, we can’t say it often enough because new lurkers appear here daily and need to be informed of this fact in a timely way. The materialist/Darwinist mind is not open to evidence except as something to be used and, if necessary, twisted. Note the number of times that atheists have told me that reason’s rules do not apply to the “real world”— that causality is not a “rule”—that the rational mind does not correspond to the rational universe—that the law of non-contradiction applies only to the investigator and not to the object of investigation. For them, evidence can be interpreted any way at all if that interpretation will advance their materialist agenda. Atheists do not sit at the feet of nature and ask to be instructed; they seek to instruct nature about how it must be. Interestingly, Pareto, the great economist, discovered long ago that 80% of most problems are generated by about 20% of the causes. As I have pointed out many times on this site, your position, atheism, is not a reasonable position, which means that you must abandon reason to maintain it. It has become a part of your strategy for everyday living that you don’t want to arrive at the destination that a reasonable interpretation of the evidence will take you. So, you try to destroy the vehicle of reason that threatens to take you on that journey. I don’t mind repeating that point because it is part of those vital few causes [the 20%] that inform most of the discussions [about 80% of them] on this web site. Heaping more and more evidence on closed minds is a strategy that fails more often than it succeeds. It is far better, in my judgment, to call attention to the closed mind. Since that fact remains hidden from most observers, I don’t scruple even for a moment about raising the issue and repeating it often. In keeping with that point, it is not uncivil to tell commentators that they are not reasoning properly, especially when that flaw endangers them and the society of which they are a part. On the contrary, such a disclosure is a corporal work of mercy.StephenB
May 9, 2010
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Borne @ 65
Clarke’s law? 1. It isn’t a law 2. Science fiction isn’t science
3. Fred Hoyle wasn't a biologistSeversky
May 9, 2010
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13 --> But, while our technology has not been able as yet to create such a self-replicator, in fact such devices are common: the living cell. In those cells DNA strands of typically 100,000 to 4,000,000,000 four-state elements provide a “tape” that is read by molecular machines in the cell and used to create and organise the proteins and other molecules of life, which carry out its functions. And the configuration space specified by just 100,000 four-state elements has 9.98 * 10^60,205 possible states. 14 --> So, it is at least plausible that cell based life is just what Darwin was in the end forced to put on the table: an artifact of design -- a conclusion that is very unwelcome in the Lewontinian evolutionary materialist camp. (indeed, when we survey the sorry state of origin of life modelling on evolutionary materialist premises, without starry-eyed naivete, we at once see that her eis no better explanation than this.) 15 --> Moreover, the underlying physics of our observed cosmos shows that the cluster of parameters, circumstances and laws required to make a cosmos suitable for intelligent cell-based life is balanced on a knife's edge. So, it is also plausible that the observed cosmos exhibits significant signs of design. That is even less welcome in the Lewontinian camp, as that may well point to an extra-cosmic, rather powerful intelligence as the designer of our cosmos. 16 --> But, we need to move on to the issue of claimed origin of body plans by chance variation and natural selection. 17 --> Now, of course, it was notorious in Darwin's day that in Cambrian fossil beds, we find an explosive diversification of animal body plans; so much so that he was forced to plead rhe incompleteness of the state of exploration, and his expectation that precursors would turn up. 18 --> But, after 150 years, many explorations, over 1/4 million identified fossil species and millions to billions of actual fossils [between those collected and those still in known beds] the observed pattern of the Cambrian and the wider record is still sudden appearance, stasis, disappearance and/or continuaiton into the modern world. [The Coelecanth shows us how vanishing for a projected several dozen million years is consistent with showing up in the modern era.] 18 --> Meyer, in his famous critical review article of 2004, which despite much slander to the contrary passed proper peer review by "renowned scientists"; has given us a handy summary on estimating the number of base pairs to get to a novel body plan, and on constraints associated with getting to such a plan:
One way to estimate the amount of new CSI [complex specified information] that appeared with the Cambrian animals is to count the number of new cell types that emerged with them (Valentine 1995:91-93) . . . the more complex animals that appeared in the Cambrian (e.g., arthropods) would have required fifty or more cell types . . . New cell types require many new and specialized proteins. New proteins, in turn, require new genetic information. Thus an increase in the number of cell types implies (at a minimum) a considerable increase in the amount of specified genetic information. Molecular biologists have recently estimated that a minimally complex single-celled organism would require between 318 and 562 kilobase pairs of DNA to produce the proteins necessary to maintain life (Koonin 2000). More complex single cells might require upward of a million base pairs. Yet to build the proteins necessary to sustain a complex arthropod such as a trilobite would require orders of magnitude more coding instructions. The genome size of a modern arthropod, the fruitfly Drosophila melanogaster, is approximately 180 million base pairs (Gerhart & Kirschner 1997:121, Adams et al. 2000). Transitions from a single cell to colonies of cells to complex animals represent significant (and, in principle, measurable) increases in CSI . . . . In order to explain the origin of the Cambrian animals, one must account not only for new proteins and cell types, but also for the origin of new body plans . . . Mutations in genes that are expressed late in the development of an organism will not affect the body plan. Mutations expressed early in development, however, could conceivably produce significant morphological change (Arthur 1997:21) . . . [but] processes of development are tightly integrated spatially and temporally such that changes early in development will require a host of other coordinated changes in separate but functionally interrelated developmental processes downstream. For this reason, mutations will be much more likely to be deadly if they disrupt a functionally deeply-embedded structure such as a spinal column than if they affect more isolated anatomical features such as fingers (Kauffman 1995:200) . . .
19 --> So,to get to a viable novel body plan requires significant coordinated adjustment of body plan, through embryologically early changes; i.e. major rewrite of the embryological development program. And given the size of rhe required programs, this is well beyond the FSCI threshold of 500 - 1,000 bits. 20 --> REMEMBER, THIS IS TO GET TO A VIABLE ORGANISM THAT CAN SURVIVE AND LIVE. So, unless spontaneous changes well beyond the Abel universal plausibility threshold are happening, we don't get far enough to get a novel sub population to have competition for resources and environmental culling of the relatively unfit, aka "natural selection." 21 --> in short, the cybernetics issues strongly point out that natural selection is overwhelmingly Blythian not Darwinian in effect: conservative, eliminating chance variations that disrupt the functionality of a body plan. 22 --> BOTTOM-LINE: Minor changes in phenotype and leading to niche specialisation and variations are possible, by various mechanisms, but sudden origin of novel body plans by chance variation [CV] + natural selection [NS] is utterly implausible. 23 --> Now, too, as we saw, the question of variation to get to novel body was on the table for the past 150 years, and the claimed gradual variation across the span of a tree of life -- the only illustration in Origin [facing p. 90] -- cuts across the fossil record. Indeed, if we take the example of a wing, we get a bad leg long before we get a functional wing, and a wing form requires considerable neurological and muscular organization and programming to control it. 22 --> So, we are back to Blythe again: since CV is non-foresighted, future potential advantage cannot block present elimination of a hindering characteristic. The animals with bad limbs get eaten or fall out of trees they cannot cling to properly [and then get eaten . . .] -- depending on cursorial or arboreal models of protobirds -- and don't reproduce. 23 --> And, that holds for a host of novel body plans. 24 --> So the diversion from the issue of origin of functionally specific complex biological information to the assumption of convenient variation and natural selection is question-begging. 25 --> And, after 150 years, we cannot accept promissory notes and just so stories any more. 26 --> Nor is playing at anti-theology, the better to smuggle in an a priori materialist magisterium dressed in lab coats acceptable. On this Philip Johnson has said it well in reply to Lewontin:
For scientific materialists the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter. [Emphasis original] We might more accurately term them "materialists employing science." And if materialism is true, then some materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction, regardless of the evidence. That theory will necessarily be at least roughly like neo-Darwinism, in that it will have to involve some combination of random changes and law-like processes capable of producing complicated organisms that (in Dawkins’ words) "give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose." . . . . The debate about creation and evolution is not deadlocked . . . Biblical literalism is not the issue. The issue is whether materialism and rationality are the same thing. Darwinism is based on an a priori commitment to materialism, not on a philosophically neutral assessment of the evidence. Separate the philosophy from the science, and the proud tower collapses. [Emphasis added.] [The Unraveling of Scientific Materialism, First Things, 77 (Nov. 1997), pp. 22 – 25.]
_______________________ And, of course there will be the now usual attempt to dismiss on "length," as an excuse to ignore substance; but we, looking on will know better. G'day GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 9, 2010
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Onlookers: ET, sadly, continues to put his incivility on display. Actually, this is a good opport5unity to show juswt how a false view of relity is being set up aws a convenient strawman intended to pull the wool over the yes of onlookers. As Mr Arrington highlighted in the original post. The question-begging and diastractive strawman games over "natural selection" are a capital example. So, let us now address the issue of origin of life forms by alleges application of chance variation and natural selection. 1 --> An excellent place to begin is with Darwin's introductory remarks and his closing words in Origin [citing 6th edn for convenience]:
. . . the Struggle for Existence amongst all organic beings throughout the world, which inevitably follows from the high geometrical ratio of their increase, will be considered. This is the doctrine of Malthus, applied to the whole animal and vegetable kingdoms. As many more individuals of each species are born than can possibly survive; and as, consequently, there is a frequently recurrent struggle for existence, it follows that any being, if it vary however slightly in any manner profitable to itself, under the complex and sometimes varying conditions of life, will have a better chance of surviving, and thus be naturally selected. From the strong principle of inheritance, any selected variety will tend to propagate its new and modified form. This fundamental subject of Natural Selection will be treated at some length in the fourth chapter; and we shall then see how Natural Selection almost inevitably causes much Extinction of the less improved forms of life, and leads to what I have called Divergence of Character. . . . . It is interesting to contemplate a tangled bank, clothed with many plants of many kinds, with birds singing on the bushes, with various insects flitting about, and with worms crawling through the damp earth, and to reflect that these elaborately constructed forms, so different from each other, and dependent upon each other in so complex a manner, have all been produced by laws acting around us. These laws, taken in the largest sense, being Growth with Reproduction; Inheritance which is almost implied by reproduction; Variability from the indirect and direct action of the conditions of life and from use and disuse [and yes, Darwin could be more lamarckian than Lamarck]: a Ratio of Increase so high as to lead to a Struggle for Life, and as a consequence to Natural Selection, entailing Divergence of Character and the Extinction of less-improved forms. Thus, from the war of nature, from famine and death, the most exalted object which we are capable of conceiving, namely, the production of the higher animals, directly follows. There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved. [[Origin, Ch 15. Emphasis added.]
2 --> Did you notice the vital questions being begged or fudged? 3 --> Namely:
(a) where did variability come from, and what are its realistic limits in a generation, and between generations? (b) where did the first fully functional life form come from, how, on what evidence?
4 --> On the latter, the core problem arises in concentrated form. For, until life forms, we can have no reproduction, so no differential success of sub-populations and no survival of the "fittest' or whatever modern euphemism you choose. 5 --> In Origin, Darwin fudges by introducing a god as an actor on stage; diverting attention from the single biggest hole in his theory then and its derivatives today. (Of course, knowing by then that his letters would be collected and published, he later wrote his still warm pond letter. Thence Oparin et al to today.) 6 --> By the late 1940's thanks to von Neumann, we knew the logico-mathematical requisites for a self replicating entity capable of the sort of things life forms are capable of. Pardon a bit of repetition, but we need to hammer this home solid:
(i) an underlying code to record/store the required information and to guide procedures for using it, (ii) a coded blueprint/tape record of such specifications and (explicit or implicit) instructions, together with (iii) a tape reader [[called “the constructor” by von Neumann] that reads and interprets the coded specifications and associated instructions, and (iv) implementing machines (and associated organisation and procedures) to carry out the specified replication (including that of the constructor itself); backed up by (v) either: (1) a pre-existing reservoir of required parts and energy sources, or (2) associated “metabolic” machines carrying out activities that provide required specific materials and forms of energy by using the generic resources in the surrounding environment.
6 --> Now, parts (ii), (iii) and (iv) are each necessary for and together are jointly sufficient to implement a self-replicating von Neumann universal constructor. That is, we see here an irreducibly complex set of core components that must all be present in a properly organised fashion for a successful self-replicator to exist. [Take just one core part out, and function ceases: the replicator is irreducibly complex (IC).] 7 --> This irreducible complexity is compounded by the requirement (i) for codes, requiring organised symbols and rules to specify both steps to take and formats for storing information, and (v) for appropriate material resources and energy sources. 8 --> Immediately, we are looking at islands of organised function for both the machinery and the information in the wider sea of possible (but mostly non-functional) configurations. 9 --> In short, outside such functionally specific -- thus, isolated -- information-rich target zones, want of correct components and/or of proper organisation and/or co-ordination will block function from emerging or being sustained. 10 --> So, once the set of possible configurations is large enough and the islands of function are credibly sufficiently specific/isolated, it is unreasonable to expect such function to arise from chance, or from chance circumstances driving blind natural forces under the known laws of nature. 11 --> Now, too, a tape of 1,000 bits (= 125 bytes) is plainly insufficient to specify the parts and instructions for a von Neumann replicator. But, the number of possible configurations of 1,000 bits is 1.07 * 10^301, more than ten times the square of the 10^150 states the 10^80 atoms of our observed universe would take up across a reasonable estimate of its lifespan. 12 --> So, viewing our observed universe as a search device, it would scan less than 1 in 10^150th part of even so “small” a configuration space. That is, it would not carry out a credible “search” for islands of function, making such islands sufficiently isolated to be beyond the reasonable reach of a blind search. [ . . . ]kairosfocus
May 9, 2010
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Toronto
Barry Arrington @37, If the Evos on this site actually answered every single point made by kairosfocus in a single post, each opinion piece would have comments the size of a book. Nothing kairosfocus says is unanswerable except to kairosfocus, who constantly retreats into charges of strawmanism.
If at least you understood what kairos said that would help. You claim its all answerable? Duh, let's see; go to the typical atheist forum and try to find valid answers for what kairos wrote and what do you find? Tons of strawman arguments, tons of mere denial tons of answers that actually prove his points of course and tons of blatant ignorant, stupidity -a la Dawkins, Harris et al.. The only way to even attempt to refute the points against atheism's obligatory relativism is by assuming that atheism is false, that relativism is false. But they try anyway while never even realizing their self contradictions!! Amazing blindness.Borne
May 9, 2010
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Mark Frank -- Funnily enough for me it is the other way round. It seems to me that, for example, YEC gives enough detail that it can be falsified (and is). While I believe that ID if looked at deeply enough, is not falsifiable. But that is a long and often repeated discussion. Since YEC cites revelation as authority, evidence showing its tenets to be incorrect will eventually be refuted according to the faith, and science attempting to refute faith is trying to prove a negative. You can only infer the Earth to be 4.5 billion years old from observations of nature, you can't definitively show it. ID, otoh, reports observations of nature. DNA has characteristics that are only found in known objects of design. You can falsify it by showing that DNA does not have the characteristics claimed or by showing that those characteristics are found in things known not to be designed. How is a non-teleological explanation of the creation of the universe not a matter of faith? . . . I don’t think I mentioned faith. You didn't. 'Twas I that pointed out that belief in a non-teleological cause requires faith :-)tribune7
May 9, 2010
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Seversky: Clarke's law? 1. It isn't a law 2. Science fiction isn't scienceBorne
May 9, 2010
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Please show me any Christian scientific formula or algorithm. The last serious attempts were by Isaac Newton. His alchemy and Bibliomancy failed. His three laws of motion suceeded, but contain no term for God. F = ma.Nakashima
May 9, 2010
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@Sooner #51 -“ I see most working scientists as pragmatists — what is “real” for them is what they can make “work” — and then speaking as though they are scientific realists. Scientists are often very bad philosophers (and that’s why philosophers of science always think they know better than scientists what science is).” You hit the nail on the head sooner. This is in fact the root of the entire controversy and the fundamental flaw that lies at the heart of scientism. Neither most practicing scientists nor the “scientific laymen” (society) understand this, hence why we often see science at odds with many. -“ My instrumentalism is rooted in my understanding that I have no way to say how my percepts are connected to reality. What is the “proof” of my sensory apparati? A. S. Eddington suggested that what we believe about nature might be a consequence of our instruments of measurement, and I fully agree. I cannot imagine how one would ever demonstrate that we have extended our native senses to instruments of measurement that permit us to “see” everything that is real” That is another good point and indicative of the element of faith in the scientific enterprise. We often forget that the methods of science are human constructs and like to assume that they are in some sense infallibly correlated to reality. Even without instruments, we still cannot conclusively prove that our senses are able to provide us with an accurate representation of what is real. The question that first needs to be answered is whether science represents merely an instrumentalist method (or variety of methods) or whether it is a search for truth. Problems arise when the two are conflated. Seversky above is a good case in point, who appears to conflate methodological and ontological materialism and consequently rewards the latter (which is an a priori assumption) with the phenomenal success of the former. Kairosfocus rightly objected to that and showed how such assumption is false. What cannot be denied is that the methodologies we have developed in trying to manipulate the material world have provided some impressive results in the fields of technology for example (iPhones, cars, irrigation systems, computers!!! etc). But it’s a long stretch and an unwarranted leap of faith to go from the pragmatic results of said manipulation to an attempt at proselytizing a priori metaphysical materialism, such in the case of lewotnin and every other materialist/atheist. Are you a Theistic evolutionist? Like I said in my initial post on this forum some weeks ago, I am open to both ID and evolution but I am more interested in seeing where the discussion between the two will go.above
May 9, 2010
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Clive Hayden @61,
You have the same access to the floor, given that your comments get approved, so don’t pretend otherwise.
My comments sometimes don't appear until the next day when the debate has moved on. A Dawkins-Dembski debate would not be fair if Dembski had even a 20-minute delay on his microphone. Why not just put everyone on moderation, that way all comments would have equal visibility.Toronto
May 9, 2010
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Sooner: FYI, no need to get in a tizzy; we at UD are very aware of the phil of sci debate between realists and anti-realists in the sciences. (Don't forget Wm A Dembski's 2nd PhD, after Mathematics, is in phil, and that several others associated with ID are deeply trained in phil and/or history of sci.) [NB: It's not just instrumentalists, there is a broad spectrum of antirealists. All the way out to Feyerabend's at first outrageous "anything goes," which then comes across as a pardonable colourful statement by one of he most colourful of modern philospohers, once we see that his more prosaic point is that good science has been done in violation of just about every canon of sci cited by demarcationists or realists etc. And if you want to know who in particular I take most seriously, it is Lakatos, whose essay here is a classic. Especially, his point about how research programmes are deeply embedded with worldview aspects in their cores, and how such cores are surrounded by armour belts of auxiliary ideas and constructs that insulate the core form direct challenge from reality. In which context we look at progressive and degenerative research programmes; with ability to elegantly [as opposed to ad hoc patchworkery], coherently and adequately account for facts as they come in being a key test.) We are also aware that a chastened provisional realism is wise, one with eclectic elements on particular areas where scientific findings are particularly open to challenge. And in particular, when we look at the scientifically informed reconstruction of the remote, unobserved and unobservable deep past, that is a main candidate for localised antirealism! As to the issue over materialism, you know full well that a priori materialism, usually in the sheep's clothing of a methodological constraint, is the imposed censoring filter on origins science. So, we have a perfect right to point that out above, and to point out just how it distorts the ability to see what would otherwise be patent given the routinely observed source of codes, algorithms, programs, and executing machines, i.e. intelligence. Especially when we can easily see that the implied or explicit functionally specific complex information greatly exceeds a threshold where happenstance, undirected, statistical contingency [ = chance] is a reasonably plausible candidate explanation. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 9, 2010
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#58 Tribune Mark, At #55 you miss the important differences. Creationism is faith that is cites revelation as authority and hence is something that cannot be objectively falsified, while ID is science that draws conclusions from observations of nature, which means that it is potentially falsifiable and hence must not be considered a dogma. Funnily enough for me it is the other way round. It seems to me that, for example, YEC gives enough detail that it can be falsified (and is). While I believe that ID if looked at deeply enough, is not falsifiable. But that is a long and often repeated discussion. How is a non-teleological explanation of the creation of the universe not a matter of faith? I don't think I mentioned faith. I don't think the key problem with teleological explanations is they require faith. But this threatens to start a long and much repeated discussion.Mark Frank
May 9, 2010
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Toronto,
How can you say this, kairosfocus: Never think you are just beating the air. Your arguments are devastating. The materialists rarely answer them because they are unusually unanswerable. to the people like me, who thanks to the moderation policies of this site, cannot respond in a timely manner? Why are you afraid to give us the same access to the floor that kairosfocus has?
You should be addressing that to me, given that I put you into moderation. Your comments are approved timely, which, even if they weren't, has nothing to do with whether they actually adequately answer kairosfocus. You have the same access to the floor, given that your comments get approved, so don't pretend otherwise. Now, down to business, after your red herring has been removed, feel free to answer kairosfocus.Clive Hayden
May 9, 2010
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Mark, At #55 you miss the important differences. Creationism is faith that is cites revelation as authority and hence is something that cannot be objectively falsified, while ID is science that draws conclusions from observations of nature, which means that it is potentially falsifiable and hence must not be considered a dogma. teleological explanation of the creation of the universe and life – even if it avoids the details. How is a non-teleological explanation of the creation of the universe not a matter of faith?tribune7
May 9, 2010
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#52 Tribune Now, just for curiosity’s sake do you recognize that ID is not creationism and can you articulate the difference? I recognise that ID is different from schools of thought that are specific about how a God or Gods made the universe and earth e.g. YEC, OEC, Muslim, Greek Myths and all the many other creation stories. So if you restrict "creationism" to refer to these specific accounts then ID is different. Nevertheless many of the problems with creationism apply to ID. ID entails a teleological explanation of the creation of the universe and life - even if it avoids the details. And for me all teleological explanations have problems - but that is a long story.Mark Frank
May 9, 2010
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I, 3:10 pm yesterday specifically pointed out
It would seem your inability to admit error does, indeed, latch.efren ts
May 9, 2010
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#48 KF. I think you overestimate the influence of UD. I am surprised by the figure of 10-15,000 people a day. Where did you get it? But in any case only a complete addict would have time to read every post by every commenter. However important the issues, we all have to pick and choose and make a decision as to where our time is best spent. I only draw the analogy with a tutor marking an undergraduate essay because a similar effort is required to read comments and do them justice. I am not saying that I see myself as the tutor and you as the undergrad. I would expect you to expend a similar effort should you choose to read and comment on something I wrote. Nor am I criticising the content or style of what you write. I have already said I don't read it (except for this exchange of course). I am just telling you that if other readers are like me (and I think a lot of materialists are) then you are missing a large proportion of your potential audience because your comments are so long. Bear in mind that the vast majority of arguments on UD have been recycled hundreds of times.Mark Frank
May 9, 2010
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kairosfocus writes of Mark Frank:
He knows, or should know, that university libraries brim over with long papers, essays and books that are typically many thousands of words in length, to deal with major topics at responsible length.
KF, The key phrase is "responsible length". I am quite willing to read articles or essays that have a high content to length ratio, even if they are long. The problem is that your posts are far longer than necessary, and the repetition is mind-numbing. To take just one example, look at the results of a Google search for 'kairosfocus "Divine Foot" site:uncommendescent.com'. Even assuming (generously) that about half of those hits are false, you have still quoted Lewontin 150(!) times at UD. And not just a phrase or a sentence, but entire paragraphs. And you've done it again in this very thread! Please, kairosfocus, give us a break. Our time is valuable. Returning to the topic at hand, you have accused Sooner, Seversky and me of 'radical relativism' in this thread, yet you haven't been able to cite a single instance in which any of us has made an argument akin to "Well, that’s your reality. My reality is different." Barry has been unable to provide examples of anyone making such an argument at UD. What was the point of this thread, again?pelagius
May 9, 2010
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Mark Frank --I think we mostly just think you guys are wrong. And that is fine. Now, just for curiosity's sake do you recognize that ID is not creationism and can you articulate the difference? KF, great job as always.tribune7
May 9, 2010
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Barry, It's more than a little sad that I've been describing pragmatism and instrumentalism -- elementary topics in the philosophy of science -- and get branded with [yawn] materialism.
pragmatism (uncountable) 3. (philosophy) The idea that beliefs are identified with the actions of a believer, and the truth of beliefs with success of those actions in securing a believer's goals; the doctrine that ideas must be looked at in terms of their practical effects and consequences.
There's pragmatism manifest in the different burdens of proof for criminal and civil cases. From the article on Scientific Progress in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy: A major controversy among philosophers of science is between instrumentalist and realist views of scientific theories (Leplin 1984; Psillos 1999; Niiniluoto 1999). The instrumentalists follow Duhem in thinking that theories are merely conceptual tools for classifying, systematizing and predicting observational statements, so that the genuine content of science is not to be found on the level of theories (Duhem 1954). Scientific realists, by contrast, regard theories as attempts to describe reality even beyond the realm of observable things and regularities, so that theories can be regarded as statements having a truth value.[...]An instrumentalist who denies that theories have truth values usually defines scientific progress by referring to other virtues theories may have, such as their increasing empirical success. I see most working scientists as pragmatists -- what is "real" for them is what they can make "work" -- and then speaking as though they are scientific realists. Scientists are often very bad philosophers (and that's why philosophers of science always think they know better than scientists what science is). My instrumentalism is rooted in my understanding that I have no way to say how my percepts are connected to reality. What is the "proof" of my sensory apparati? A. S. Eddington suggested that what we believe about nature might be a consequence of our instruments of measurement, and I fully agree. I cannot imagine how one would ever demonstrate that we have extended our native senses to instruments of measurement that permit us to "see" everything that is real. A bigger problem I have with all of this is that it is all about outward exploration. My inward experience is real, and giving credence to my sense of my own creation, as well as my intimation of the Creation, is valid. Presumably everybody reading this has access to the same inward experience. They may choose to discount it because it is unscientific. It seems to me that the ID program is a muddled attempt to foist intrinsically private experience onto public science, and to make science "tell the truth" in terms of private belief. I see ID as a devaluation of, and a distraction from, the inward exploration that really will get one to the Truth.Sooner Emeritus
May 9, 2010
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ET On a further look at your above remarks, it seems the matter is worse: you are plainly lying, at minimum by refusing to check out relevant facts in the interests of truth and fairness. (For instance, onlookers, why not look at the briefing note that is automatically linked to EVERY post I have ever made at UD? As well as the weak argument correctives that appear on every page at UD?] Just as Bary A pointed out in the original post as a characteristic problem of today's radically relativist evo mat advocates. ET, you owe me an apology -- not that I am holding my breath, G'day sir GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 9, 2010
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ET: You obviously are addicted to strawman distortions of those you discuss with. I, 3:10 pm yesterday specifically pointed out -- and I seem to need to follow up on a couple of other points there later today DV -- why the first issue [cf above on the vN replicator] is the origin of functionally specific complex information in a working body plan, and why until you have a functional and self-replicating life form natural selection through competing sub populations is irrelevant and question-begging. But then, that sort of manipulative strawman denigratory and dismissive rhetoric is sadly par for the evolutionary materialist course; as this thread is highlighting. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 9, 2010
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MF: How about: (a) you are standing up in public here at UD, in front of 10 - 15 thousand people on a daily basis, to advocate a position that is credibly self-referentially incoherent, and (b) on a serious line of not only history of ideas but also history, has been associated with amorality [i.e. the notorious is-ought gap of materialism and similar skepticisms], thus (c) undermining key values and virtues [cf below on the stem cells debates], serving repeatedly as a pre-cursor to tyranny, as (d) the sad history of the last century shows all too vividly. As 100 million ghosts warn us on. Just for a point of departure, here is Plato on the issues, in The Laws, Bk X:
[The avant garde philosophers, teachers and artists c. 400 BC] say that the greatest and fairest things are the work of nature and of chance, the lesser of art [ i.e. techne], which, receiving from nature the greater and primeval creations, moulds and fashions all those lesser works which are generally termed artificial . . . They say that fire and water, and earth and air [i.e the classical "material" elements of the cosmos], all exist by nature and chance, and none of them by art, and that as to the bodies which come next in order-earth, and sun, and moon, and stars-they have been created by means of these absolutely inanimate existences. The elements are severally moved by chance and some inherent force according to certain affinities among them-of hot with cold, or of dry with moist, or of soft with hard, and according to all the other accidental admixtures of opposites which have been formed by necessity. After this fashion and in this manner the whole heaven has been created, and all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only . . . . these people would say that the Gods exist not by nature, but by art, and by the laws of states, which are different in different places, according to the agreement of those who make them; and that the honourable is one thing by nature and another thing by law, and that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them [i.e. radical relativism traces directly to evolutionary materialistic thought] . . . These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might, and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions, these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is, to live in real dominion over others [here, Plato hints at the career of Alcibiades], and not in legal subjection to them [and down that road lie chaos and tyranny] . . . [Jowett translation. Emphases and explanatory parentheses added.]
In short, if responsibility in a momentous context does not move you in your advocacy, it says a lot, and not happily. Pardon, if my words come across sharpishly. But, much is at stake. Indeed, let me build a bridge to the embryonic stem cell issue you are concerned with in your Masters in Sci and Soc [i.e. largely ethics of sci]:
a] From avant garde evolutionary materialism, we move to the concept that human life is not sacred, reflective of Imago Dei, and to the further notion that there is life of lesser worth than that of the avant garde superior supermen b] Thence we arrive at the Nazi-like notion that there is human life unworthy of being lived in liberty, justice and equality of opportunity, or even that there is human life unworthy of being lived at all. c] Thereafter, it is but a step to the Schaeffer-Koop cascade of amorality and tyranny: abortion, infanticide, euthanasia, genocide. d] On embryonic stem cells, today's supermen tell us that this is embryonic life of inferior value and worth, thus should not be protected from high tech cannibalisation to “help” their superiors. e] Thence, we see attempts to kill and harvest human embryos in the hopes of getting stem cells of great flexibility to “heal.” f] Meanwhile those who would cannibalise on the helpless do not tell us that pluripotent stem cells that do not come from morally questionable sources – i.e. so-called adult and cord blood etc stem cells – are already achieving dozens of treatments, while embryonic cells are giving serious problems g] Instead, they willfully poison the atmosphere by changing the subject to science vs religion, with strawman attacks on an imagined right wing theocracy conspiracy, thus poisoning, confusing and polarising the public discussion of policy issues with very serious implications for us all.
In short, what is going on in this thread, from the original post on, is highly relevant and vitally important, with potentially appalling consequences if evolutionary materialism further triumphs. GEM of TKI PS: MF I am no sophomore student trying out his shiny new intellectual wings, and you are not my course tutor sitting in serene judgement on superior knowledge. In short, your analogy is utterly revealing.kairosfocus
May 9, 2010
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MF to KF:
I am afraid you flatter yourself.
Hammer, meet nail.
our comments #43 and #44 above are both over a 1000 words long.
2,402 to be exact. Followed by another 763 in post script at comment 46. Length is but one problem. That he proposed a (supposed) analog for evolution in another thread that completely ignores selection leads me to the conclusion that there is not a pony buried in amongst all those words.efren ts
May 9, 2010
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Barry Arrington @37, Point 2, the big one: How can you say this,
kairosfocus: Never think you are just beating the air. Your arguments are devastating. The materialists rarely answer them because they are unusually unanswerable.
to the people like me, who thanks to the moderation policies of this site, cannot respond in a timely manner? Why are you afraid to give us the same access to the floor that kairosfocus has?Toronto
May 9, 2010
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Barry Arrington @37,
kairosfocus: Never think you are just beating the air. Your arguments are devastating. The materialists rarely answer them because they are unusually unanswerable.
If the Evos on this site actually answered every single point made by kairosfocus in a single post, each opinion piece would have comments the size of a book. Nothing kairosfocus says is unanswerable except to kairosfocus, who constantly retreats into charges of strawmanism. There are many here, StephenB and yourself included, who tend to give short and to-the-point responses. If kairosfocus did the same, most of us would take the time to read and respond. As an experiment, kairosfocus should try that.Toronto
May 9, 2010
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kairosfocus @43,
The relevant founders — e.g. Faraday, Maxwell and Kelvin — most plainly worked in the classic paradigm that science is thinking God’s creative thoughts about him.
None of the science they did could not have been done by a Hindu, a Buddhist or an atheist. Please show me any Christian scientific formula or algorithm. Show me any formula or algorithm that could only be used by a Christian.Toronto
May 9, 2010
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PS: Since further discussion needs to be in light of the themes and insights from von Neumann's universal constructor, I give some background links -- Wilkipedia is sadly deficient on this one (no prizes for guessing why): 1] Review, with a focus on a software simulation. (NB: I am not impressed with simulations, we need a machine to do it physically, and at both molecular scales and ordinary scales -- which would transform our global technological basis. BTW, Jakubowski et al with their Open Source Ecology paradigm for Industrial Society 2.0, especially the resilient community construction set are onto something. Indeed, I intend to use a lot of heir ideas in my onward consultancies on 3rd world Caribbean focussed sustainable development. Including on my advice on post Haiti quake redevelopment. [Now you know some of what I have been busy about in recent months . . . cf esp the timeline chart with links in the pdf.]) 2] Nasa Study, towards advanced automation of space missions. [And, do you see where the "reverse engineering" view of science points?] 3] Scanned copy of von Neumann's book courtesy Web Archive. 4] Tempesti's summary and his description of the Tom Thumb Algor 5] A scoop from Merkle:
Von Neumann's proposal consisted of two central elements: a Universal Computer and a Universal Constructor (see figure 1). The Universal Computer contains a program that directs the behavior of the Universal Constructor. The Universal Constructor, in turn, is used to manufacture both another Universal Computer and a Universal Constructor. Once finished, the newly manufactured Universal Computer was programmed by copying the program contained in the original Universal Computer, and program execution would then begin. . . . . This is rather an abstract proposal and covers a wide variety of specific implementations. Furthermore, both the design of the system and the environment in which it is intended to operate must be specified. The range of systems that would successfully operate on the ocean floor would be different from those that would operate in either deep space or an abstract mathematical space that had no physical existence. Von Neumann worked out the details for a Constructor that worked in a theoretical two-dimensional cellular automata world (and parts of his proposal have since been modeled computationally[13]). The Constructor had an arm, which it could move about; and a tip, which could be used to change the state of the cell on which it rested. Thus, by progressively moving the arm and changing the state of the cell at the tip of the arm, it was possible to create "objects" that consisted of regions of the two-dimensional cellular automata world which were fully specified by the program that controlled the Constructor. While this solution demonstrates the theoretical validity of the idea, von Neumann's kinematic constructor (which was not worked out in such detail) has had perhaps a greater influence, for it is a model of self replication which can more easily be adapted to the three-dimensional world in which we live. The kinematic constructor was a robotic arm which moved in three-space, and which grasped parts from a sea of parts around it. These parts were then assembled into another kinematic constructor and its associated control computer. An important point to notice is that self replication, while important, is not by itself an objective. A device able to make copies of itself but unable to make anything else would not be very valuable. Von Neumann's proposals centered around the combination of a Universal Constructor, which could make anything it was directed to make, and a Universal Computer, which could compute anything it was directed to compute. This combination provides immense value, for it can be re- programmed to make any one of a wide range of things. It is this ability to make almost any structure that is desired, and to do so at low cost, which is of value. The ability of the device to make copies of itself is simply a means to achieve low cost, rather than an end in itself.
Of course, those who imagine that random chance program changes -- which notoriously would overwhelmingly tend to destroy existing function rather than create new function -- would allow such to evolve rapidly to ever more complex machines [which then compete in an environment to select the superior technology], have latched on to that idea --> But, they are overlooking the functional specificity, complex organisation and informational requisites of such. [For good reason, complex software does not write itself by lucky noise!] --> And, that is the issue that design theory points to.kairosfocus
May 9, 2010
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#43 KF You wrote: Mr Frank: You rather underscore Mr Arrington’s point, when you say you choose to ignore rather than correct. (I am fairly sure that if you and others of like ilk had cogent replies, you would pounce triumphantly. I am afraid you flatter yourself. I have no idea whether I have a cogent reply to your comments because I don't have the time to read them. Your comments #43 and #44 above are both over a 1000 words long. A typical length for an undergraduate essay is 2000 words. A tutor who is doing a decent job would take at least 30 minutes to mark an essay. I need a very good reason to give up 30 minutes of my time to read your comments - particularly as the result is likely to be another comment of similar length. After all I could spend the time reading a Dembski or Behe paper.Mark Frank
May 9, 2010
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