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Religion And Intelligent Design Theory

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The history of science is – of course – full of theories that have been proposed by people with deep religious or philosophical convictions (including materialism).  These great minds and others around and after them have often opined about the social, philosophical and religious implications of their scientific discoveries or the discoveries and theories of others.  Certain scientific discoveries and theories are often extrapolated into social perspectives and even used to support political agendas. Eugenics, for example, was advocated for and embraced by various Darwinism proponents.

Religion has been brought up several times here at UD and there is no home thread for it to be discussed or debated. I thought I’d provide one for those that wish to engage in such a discussion.  Some here seem to be arguing under the assumption that only those who adhere to some form of Abrahamic faith are IDists; I’m not of any organized religion.   I’ve never even read the Bible or Koran.  I was raised very loosely as a Methodist but at 17 turned to Eastern philosophies, later became a hard-core materialist atheist and maybe 15 or so years ago became something of combination classical and “new age” theist – but those tags can be very misleading due to the nature of my idiosyncratic views.

I was initially drawn to the ID debate not because it was necessary or favorable to my views, but rather because those who made anti-ID arguments were making such laughably bad arguments, and ID proponents made some very reasonable arguments that were met with an openly dismissive hostility that intrigued me.  I’ve actually developed my theistic views in about the same time frame that I’ve been involved in the ID debate, as those on the ID side employed and directed others to more classical arguments about god, existence and the use of logic.  My spiritual views do not require that evolution be guided, so I’m not in this argument to support any worldview a prioris.

Others here have argued that because leading ID advocates have religious views and because they may use ID to pursue a social/political agenda, that in itself disqualifies ID as a legitimate scientific theory.  If I have to tell you how bad this logic is, there’s probably no hope for you. If a Darwinist uses Darwinism as a basis (legitimate or not) for pursuing a Eugenics program where “inferior” people are sterilized, that doesn’t say anything about the theory itself.  The theory of ID, like the theory of Darwinistic evolution,  must be argued on its scientific merits alone and not on the matter of the motivations, religious beliefs, or character of those advocating ID theory or using it for various non-scientific promotions.

Even if (hypothetically) young-earth Christian fundamentalists do plan to use ID via the “Wedge Document” to form a theocratic government and force students to study the Bible, that would have no bearing on whether or not ID itself is a good scientific theory.  Even if all ID advocates are lying hypocrites with dastardly plans to use ID in some horrific social fashion, that is still not a valid argument that ID theory is not scientific.

 

Comments
wd400:
A science teacher who taught ID as a valid scientific alternative to mainstream biology should be fired,
Why? Mainstream biology, if it follows evolutionism, isn't science. Heck mainstream biology doesn't need evolutionism. Biology can be taught absent of evolutionism. My daughter is learning about evolution in social studies! It isn't even considered science at her school!!!!!11!!!1!!! :cool: ID has testable entailments- as science mandates. ID has all of the hallmarks of science. So why would anyone be fired for teaching it in a science classroom?Joe
December 11, 2014
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Mung: "And here I thought I had been working hard to improve myself. In the past I would have just been downright rude to people who deserved rudeness. Now I am just snarky." He's not expressing his self-righteous indignation against you personally for being snarky, it's just that you are doing it for the wrong side of the issue. If he actually believed in polite principles and standards for discussion forums, he would equally be critical of the beyond snarkiness conduct of his own colleagues who get down right crude and belligerent with their behavior. So don't ever think snarkiness is repugnant to Sir William, it's only distasteful if you are doing it for the wrong side. __________ A.R. - "It [secularism] entails true intellectual freedom for a plurality of beliefs." WJM - "I don’t see where anything you claim about secularism is true." It's known merely as a religious faith affirmation .DavidD
December 10, 2014
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F/N: Let's refocus the we don't know the deep past of origins scientific issue by citing the title of Lyell's main work, which is a foundational text for scientific approaches to the deep unobservable past, i.e. historical sciences:
PRINCIPLES OF GEOLOGY: BEING AN INQUIRY HOW FAR THE FORMER CHANGES OF THE EARTH'S SURFACE REFERABLE TO CAUSES NOW IN OPERATION.
That is, we see here a pattern of inference to best current explanation conditioned by the vera causa principle that causal adequacy relative to traces from the past should be established on reasonable empirically based grounds. 1 --> Relevant phenomenon, FSCO/I, which per things like the Abu 6500 C3 i a commonplace of a technological world, and which per trillions of cases of observation, is known to be caused by intelligently directed configuration -- aka design. 2 --> This phenomenon is observable and quantifiable, per its linked or explicit information content. This, by applying well known approaches of information theory that are in the literature over decades. 3 --> The phenomenon FSCO/I also appears in the world of life based on cells, such as may be seen in protein synthesis, the related data storage structure of D/RNA and codes, in the integrated reaction sets of metabolic processes, etc. 4 --> Such lie at the core of life forms and are generally regarded as traces from the origin of cell based life. 5 --> One extension of these, is the capability of cells to self-replicate, which likewise is a core characteristic tracing to the era of OOL. Where, it is known that codes and algorithms integrated with the metabolic processes etc are involoved e.g. through protein synthesis. 6 --> That is, we have integration of gsted, encapsulated metabolic automata, with associated coded information storage and algorithmic expression using molecular nanomachines, and with an integral von Neumann kinematic self-replication facility [vNSR]. 7 --> All of this is richly embedded with FSCO/I. 8 --> It is therefore reasonable to assess the project of explaining origin of same on relevant causal candidates, such as the physics and chemistry linked to mechanical necessity and blind chance processes which apply to warm salty ponds, and/or comet cores etc as have been discussed over decades. And alternatively, to intelligently directed configuration. 9 --> Immediately, FSCO/I has never been credibly observed to originate by blind chance and/or mechanical necessity, in general and in particular through relevant physics, chemistry and especially thermodynamics, nor is this plausible per needle in haystack search challenge in the configuration space involved. 10 --> Not only on the suggestion of full, spontaneous generation of a living cell, but also scenarios that appeal to RNA worlds and other less well defined self replicating molecules. 11 --> Indeed, this is the reason why OOL studies stand currently in serious trouble, aptly summed up in the following exchange of mutual ruin between Orgel and Shapiro:
[[Shapiro:] RNA's building blocks, nucleotides contain a sugar, a phosphate and one of four nitrogen-containing bases as sub-subunits. Thus, each RNA nucleotide contains 9 or 10 carbon atoms, numerous nitrogen and oxygen atoms and the phosphate group, all connected in a precise three-dimensional pattern . . . . [[S]ome writers have presumed that all of life's building could be formed with ease in Miller-type experiments and were present in meteorites and other extraterrestrial bodies. This is not the case. A careful examination of the results of the analysis of several meteorites led the scientists who conducted the work to a different conclusion: inanimate nature has a bias toward the formation of molecules made of fewer rather than greater numbers of carbon atoms, and thus shows no partiality in favor of creating the building blocks of our kind of life . . . . To rescue the RNA-first concept from this otherwise lethal defect, its advocates have created a discipline called prebiotic synthesis. They have attempted to show that RNA and its components can be prepared in their laboratories in a sequence of carefully controlled reactions, normally carried out in water at temperatures observed on Earth . . . . Unfortunately, neither chemists nor laboratories were present on the early Earth to produce RNA . . . [[Orgel:] If complex cycles analogous to metabolic cycles could have operated on the primitive Earth, before the appearance of enzymes or other informational polymers, many of the obstacles to the construction of a plausible scenario for the origin of life would disappear . . . . It must be recognized that assessment of the feasibility of any particular proposed prebiotic cycle must depend on arguments about chemical plausibility, rather than on a decision about logical possibility . . . few would believe that any assembly of minerals on the primitive Earth is likely to have promoted these syntheses in significant yield . . . . Why should one believe that an ensemble of minerals that are capable of catalyzing each of the many steps of [[for instance] the reverse citric acid cycle was present anywhere on the primitive Earth [[8], or that the cycle mysteriously organized itself topographically on a metal sulfide surface [[6]? . . . Theories of the origin of life based on metabolic cycles cannot be justified by the inadequacy of competing theories: they must stand on their own . . . . The prebiotic syntheses that have been investigated experimentally almost always lead to the formation of complex mixtures. Proposed polymer replication schemes are unlikely to succeed except with reasonably pure input monomers. No solution of the origin-of-life problem will be possible until the gap between the two kinds of chemistry is closed. Simplification of product mixtures through the self-organization of organic reaction sequences, whether cyclic or not, would help enormously, as would the discovery of very simple replicating polymers. However, solutions offered by supporters of geneticist or metabolist scenarios that are dependent on “if pigs could fly” hypothetical chemistry are unlikely to help.
12 --> The basic reason, of course is that neither of the main models, genes or metabolism first (with the former enfolding RNA world), has passed the vera causa test. 13 --> However, we do know a reliable, routinely observed cause of FSCO/I. Design. 14 --> We also know that codes, algorithms and associated information systems are inherently goal-oriented and symbol using, which are well known patterns of conscious design. 15 --> Moreover, we are taking first steps in genetic and nanotech engineering, including molecular nanotech, such as we can see from the works of Venter et al. 16 --> FSCO/I by design, using molecular nanotech is not an unreasonable candidate cause for the FSCO/I in life forms, absent imposition of a priori evolutionary materialism (often in the guise of seemingly plausible mere methodological requirements that are rooted in naturalism). 17 --> So, we do have a serious candidate for OOL, design. It does not need to be imposed on pretence that it is fact, Fact, FACT, but it would be a reasonable approach to hold that this is the candidate cause that has the advantage of invoking known adequate causal factors. 18 --> Similarly, major body plans that unfold from zygotes or the like through embryological development or comparable processes, are again chock full of FSCO/I. 19 --> In may cases, systems from cellular level on up exhibit irreducible complexity, where the interaction of core components to achieve function is such that each is necessary and all in proper arrangement and coupling are jointly sufficient for the core function. An engineering commonplace. And a roadblock to incremental origin, often countered by suggestion of shifting of components from one use to another, exaptation 20 --> Where, as Angus Menuge observes for the bacterial flagellum, a rotary action outboard motor using dozens of protein parts and the :
For a working [bacterial] flagellum to be built by exaptation, the five following conditions would all have to be met: C1: Availability. Among the parts available for recruitment to form the flagellum, there would need to be ones capable of performing the highly specialized tasks of paddle, rotor, and motor, even though all of these items serve some other function or no function. C2: Synchronization. The availability of these parts would have to be synchronized so that at some point, either individually or in combination, they are all available at the same time. C3: Localization. The selected parts must all be made available at the same ‘construction site,’ perhaps not simultaneously but certainly at the time they are needed. C4: Coordination. The parts must be coordinated in just the right way: even if all of the parts of a flagellum are available at the right time, it is clear that the majority of ways of assembling them will be non-functional or irrelevant. C5: Interface compatibility. The parts must be mutually compatible, that is, ‘well-matched’ and capable of properly ‘interacting’: even if a paddle, rotor, and motor are put together in the right order, they also need to interface correctly. ( Agents Under Fire: Materialism and the Rationality of Science, pgs. 104-105 (Rowman & Littlefield, 2004). HT: ENV.)
21 --> This cluster is again familiar from the world of technology. Whilst one does not re-invent the wheel, applying it to particular circumstances may be non-trivial. (I recall here the actual case of strapping an engineer into the wheel well of German aircraft in WW II, to observe how the wheels deployed and worked in landing, due to difficulties with landing gear design.) 22 --> Even in cases where irreducible complexity itself may not apply, FSCO/I poses a blind search problem by the implications of requiring many correct parts in a proper arrangement that allows interaction to achieve function, as the 6500 C3 reel readily exemplifies. 23 --> That is, FSCO/I naturally comes in islands of function in large config spaces, with 500 - 1,000 bits of complexity being a useful threshold for the needle in haystack issue to kick in for solar system scale or observed cosmos scale blind chance and necessity search. 24 --> In general also, there is no empirical demonstration of a vast continent of incrementally accessible life forms in the config space for organisms, spannable by a branching tree network. That is the message of the systematic absence of the ever so many conspicuously missing links, never mind occasional headlines and later retractions that do not get the same level of highlighting. 25 --> Similarly, if realistic mutation rates and population times etc are applied, the fixing of novel body plan structures, becomes implausible on time available on the conventional timeline. Origin of man from a chimp-like ancestor 6 MYA is a good case in point. Origin of wings and flight for birds, etc would be a similar case. Origin of whales, also, in light of the many critical physiological changes involved. And so forth. 26 --> All this is cumulatively pointing to the pervasive significance of FSCO/I and its origin as a crucial issue for any serious scientific study of origins. 27 --> Where, again the only credible and empirically well supported, directly observed causal factor for FSCO/I is intelligently directed configuration. 28 --> Where also, in terms of history of ideas, one needs look no further than co-founder of evolutionary theory, Wallace, to understand that even within evolutionary theorising, many significant scientists have held and continue to hold that there is intelligently directed configuration at work in the origin of life and/or its main body plans. 29 --> So, a reasonable discussion of relevant origins, should reckon seriously with issues of why design has been put on the table from classical times to today. 30 --> the actual contrasting history of the past several decades, is strong evidence that other, ideologically shaped, worldview and cultural agenda linked factors have manifestly been at work and have hampered a clear sighted application of the vera causa test that we can see in even Lyell's title as quoted in this comment. It is time for fresh thinking. KFkairosfocus
December 10, 2014
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AR said:
It [secularism] entails true intellectual freedom for a plurality of beliefs.
Can you support this assertion? From Merriam-Webster:
indifference to or rejection or exclusion of religion and religious considerations
I don't see where anything you claim about secularism is true.William J Murray
December 10, 2014
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Reciprocating Bill:
And that said, I think your contributions to UD would be a lot more valuable if you abandoned the snarknado approach to commenting, Mung.
And here I thought I had been working hard to improve myself. In the past I would have just been downright rude to people who deserved rudeness. Now I am just snarky. Some people claim you can attract more flies with honey than with vinegar. I guess that's fine if you want to attract flies. But then, a corpse also attracts flies. I adapt myself to the level of competition. Why waste more energy than is required? It's the evolutionary imperative. Let's go back to the original material. You said:
…there are approximately five million trillion trillion bacteria on earth, each an instance of FSCO/I (you claim). As we don’t know the origins of life, the origins of these instances cannot be assigned ... to natural events unless one assumes a conclusion regarding the very question at issue.
According to you, as we don’t know the origins of life, the origins of these instances [of approximately five million trillion trillion bacteria on earth] cannot be assigned to natural events unless one assumes a conclusion regarding the very question at issue. That's what you said. So why can't you just stick by what you said? Instead we get from you your weasel response at 181. It should be no wonder that I get snarky.Mung
December 10, 2014
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wd400:
A science teacher who taught ID as a valid scientific alternative to mainstream biology should be fired, though they probably wouldn’t be.
What do you think will happen when the teacher gives a judge a link to the computer models at Planet Source Code and the following text (clicking on my name also links to) so they can see what students who showed an interest in ID or beginners level cognitive science coding were actually given to experiment with? https://sites.google.com/site/theoryofid/home/TheoryOfIntelligentDesign.pdfGary S. Gaulin
December 10, 2014
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A teacher in almost any high school in states that don’t protect them from such, will be fired for bringing up the controversy played out on this website
A science teacher who taught ID as a valid scientific alternative to mainstream biology should be fired, though they probably wouldn't be. I don't think most secularists would object to a social studies teacher merely bringing up the fact people hold other beliefs.wd400
December 10, 2014
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Graham @217: ID has had zero impact on anything.... Really now. So how would you reconcile that with academic freedom legislation passed in Tennessee and Louisiana, crafted by legislators in consultation with fellows at Discovery Institute? Again, here is that link just for you: http://www.capitol.tn.gov/Bills/107/Bill/HB0368.pdf I cant speak for the other heathens.... Certainly you can; every single one of you wants the same for our school children, and for our wider culture, and that is universal belief that nature created itself. Which is based on ZERO evidence but of course you know this. And that is the reason you come here, because we stand in your way, insulting your faith in a universe creating itself. ...but all they have done is yawn and walk away. Looks like that isn't happening in Brazil: http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/11/a_few_years_ago091381.html So thank you Graham for the opportunity to post the same links all over again, just seemed like you played up the issues just for reiteration there. Now readers following you and me probably have noticed that you didn't bother to answer regarding my two thought experiments proposed to you @183 and @202. I propose to you that you are at least averse to do it if not deep down unconsciously afraid. Because you would have to answer for people's faces having no purpose or meaning for you, or admit your position is a ridiculous contradiction. I don't really blame a person for fear, but I can blame a person for refusing self-examination. ...but I come here for the same reason I stare at car crashes. No you don't. You can't post your ideological position at a car crash. You come here to try to knock down people you think are anti-science, who then get to point out to you your non-scientific belief in a self-creating universe, a pure science fiction which will forever remain fiction. Again thank you for your time, now I would appreciate your taking up my two human face experimental challenges.groovamos
December 10, 2014
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Graham2:
If ID is the new wave, surely those rascally student would love a cause to stick up the establishment, but all they have done is yawn and walk away.
In other places (other than UD) ID type thinking is not the controversy it once was: http://www.planetsourcecode.com/vb/scripts/ShowCode.asp?txtCodeId=74175&lngWId=1 Other models and code by me: http://www.planetsourcecode.com/vb/scripts/BrowseCategoryOrSearchResults.asp?txtCriteria=Gary+Gaulin&lngWId=1 BioLogos is the Darwinian version of UD, where as you can see even in the "Evolutionary Creation" brand Creationism it's OK to talk religiously about scientific theory without the scientific theory having to be thrown out of science: https://biologos.org/ It is extremely unscientific to suggest that religious minded discussions found at UD and elsewhere are reason to dismiss computer models with theory of operation to program "intelligent cause" events. Due to the way science works the scientific controversy is already over. ID already won, real good. But the religious controversy goes on. As a result of changes that already happened you are now like at BioLogos wondering when the religious talking will stop then all get busy writing their scientific theory.Gary S. Gaulin
December 10, 2014
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GA: I cant speak for the other heathens, but I come here for the same reason I stare at car crashes. ID has had zero impact on anything, but it is revealing to watch religious minds at work. You have all decided that some gods or other are a good idea, now all you have to do is shoehorn science to fit, and all the Dembski nonsense follows. What happened to all the IDEA clubs ? If ID is the new wave, surely those rascally student would love a cause to stick up the establishment, but all they have done is yawn and walk away.Graham2
December 10, 2014
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Alicia Renard: The world-at-large takes no notice of the pronouncements of WJM, KF or Barry Arrington, I’m afraid. Afraid really? Philosophical materialists are obviously afraid of this website and blog, which Barry runs or they wouldn't obsessively come here over and over and crack up with pronouncements like the following absurdity: I think you misunderstand what secularism entails. It entails true intellectual freedom for a plurality of beliefs. A teacher in almost any high school in states that don't protect them from such, will be fired for bringing up the controversy played out on this website. I have asked several Darwinists on this board to explain to me the step by step buildup of the scores of trillions of cilia in the mammalian trachea/bronchial system all acting in wavelike concert to expel mucus. And I ask for the selective advantage conferred by each step. And I ask for the selective advantage conferred by that first cilium or maybe even the first million. They can never come up with any coherent answer. If I were a teacher in high school and told the story in class that I just now tell, I would be fired almost certainly. If at a university I would be denied tenure and forced to resign. So Alicia we appreciate your opinion here, because it does our work for us, showing the young folk what your cultural viewpoint entails regarding intellectual freedom. Talk up “Intelligent Design” as much as you want. There has been no genuine progress with the ID paradigm since William Paley. Conveniently you leave out the conversion from atheism to deism of the late Anthony Flew, the premier UK philosopher of the modern era, after his reading of the ID debate. Conveniently you leave out the serious discussions of ID by Thomas Nagel, the premier academic philosopher in the U.S. @ NYU. Conveniently you leave out the academic freedom legislation passed in Tennessee (http://www.capitol.tn.gov/Bills/107/Bill/HB0368.pdf), Louisiana, and pending in other states which are modeled after sample legislation sourced by the ID project. These bills have withstood court tests and protect educators from threats to intellectual freedom (as referenced above) which you invoke as your ideal. Final notes: ID is advancing in a world-wide crescendo, there is a UK ID project, one in Turkey, and look what has happened with the one in Brazil: http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/11/a_few_years_ago091381.html The world-at-large takes no notice of the pronouncements of WJM, KF or Barry Arrington, I’m afraid. Sorry but this ID promoting website is one of the two major ones in the English speaking world; Barry runs it and I support it financially as do others. So your attempt at take down of him and the contributors and their influence falls face down in the mud. People in power all over the country are following our debate challenge and passing laws to protect the spread of the debate as it moves into the classroom.groovamos
December 10, 2014
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PPS: Here as also updated will also help clarify: https://uncommondescent.com/complex-specified-information/fyi-ftr-but-orgel-didnt-mean-what-dembski-did-when-he-spoke-of-specified-complexity-not/kairosfocus
December 10, 2014
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PS: A discussion of the reality of FSCO/I using the Abu 6500 C3 reel is here: https://uncommondescent.com/design-inference/fyi-ftr-on-the-factual-reality-of-fscoi-and-dfsci/ FSCO/I in the same, is shown to be a bridge from the technological to the biological worlds (unsurprising, given what Orgel and Wicken long since said), and per inductive reasoning and linked analysis on needles in haystacks, to be an inductively strong sign of design as cause. Also, on seeing that FSCO/I is a trace from the past of the origin of life and of body plans, we should note that to scientifically, inductively infer a reasonable explanation we must apply the vera causa principle. That is, we explain on directly known, truly adequate causes. Where, for FSCO/I, on trillions of cases in point, intelligently directed configuration aka design, is the only actually known cause of FSCO/I. So, again, FSCO/I is the bridge between the world of technology exemplified by the Abu 6500 reel, and the world of biological origins.kairosfocus
December 10, 2014
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Intelligent Design is about the design, as in the detection and study of. The intelligent designer(s) and specific process(es), for example are separate questions from whether or not there is intelligent design. It isn't that our opponents are ignorant of how science works. The problem is they think their ignorance means something and is actually an issue for ID.Joe
December 10, 2014
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AR: Pardon, but the connexion was laid out for you and others over and over again. The Abu 6500 C3 is an example of FSCO/I in a familiar undeniable context. Pace what many, many posts tried to dismiss over a very long time, FSCO/I is real, and it is quantifiable in informational terms. So, when we see the same pattern of functionally specific complex organisation and associated information in biosystems [try D/RNA code driven protein synthesis as a capital case in point central to life function], we have a very direct basis to apply the same findings. Where, we know that FSCO/I per trillions of cases has only one observed and plausible cause, design, leading to an inductively strong inference from FSCO/I to design as vera causa warranted, best current explanation -- one that would have to be broken by showing FSCO/I per actual observation emerging by blind chance and mechanical necessity, which many objectors formerly tried to show and repeatedly failed, which is what led to the current rhetorical tactics of denial, dismissal and obfuscation. That, too has been laid out again and again, what you and others are now reduced to putting up is various selectively hyperskeptical gambits. KFkairosfocus
December 10, 2014
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There has been no genuine progress with the ID paradigm since William Paley.
How would you know? What genuine progress has been made with the blind watchmaker paradigm?
I’m still bemused why you should think a fishing reel has anything to tell us regarding biology.
And we are bemused why anyone should think the blind watchmaker paradigm has something to offer.Joe
December 10, 2014
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AR @ 206:
There are no material candidate design agents around three billion or so years ago.
You don’t know that. Those, like atheist Leslie Orgel, who believe in directed panspermia would disagree with you.
I’ll go along with [the assertion that Craig Venter is not immaterial]. Where does that get us?
It gets us to the conclusion that there is no reason to exclude embodied material designers from candidates for “designer” of biological structures on an a priori basis, as you seem to want to do. And the next step is that one need not posit an immaterial supernatural designer to make a design inference regarding a biological structure.Barry Arrington
December 10, 2014
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@Me_Think #123 Back again like a bad penny. But it strikes me that, in a merely half-sane world, right from the moment when non locality was first established, but also in the light of its multifarious confirmations, as iteratively adumbrated by BA77, even more so, QM should have been a game-changer. However, your remark that BA77 is a 'great fan' of QM strikes me as, in principle at least, an utterly astonishing remark for a scientist to make. 'In principle' and yet clearly not in practice, since the implication of QM as an ephemeral, show-business phenomenon, is perfectly consistent with atheism, the world-view giving rise to materialism, your foundational hypothesis, and not simply espoused by yourself, but by atheism's 'naive realists',* generally, since QM's confirmed mathematical proofs are unassailable, and as such, continue to demand the renunciation by atheists of their outdated, discredited, atheistic hypothesis. *Blame Albert for that one.Axel
December 10, 2014
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KF writes:
Onlookers, observe how objectors to the design inference on FSCO/I continue to do almost anything to avoid acknowledging that something like the Abu 6500 C3 manifests FSCO/I, which can be expressed in a Aicken wiring diagram and quantified informationally as a result. That speaks volumes. KF
I'm still bemused why you should think a fishing reel has anything to tell us regarding biology.Alicia Renard
December 10, 2014
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Onlookers, observe how objectors to the design inference on FSCO/I continue to do almost anything to avoid acknowledging that something like the Abu 6500 C3 manifests FSCO/I, which can be expressed in a Aicken wiring diagram and quantified informationally as a result. That speaks volumes. KFkairosfocus
December 10, 2014
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Barry Arrington writes:
Why do you believe the agent posited by ID advocates is necessarily immaterial?
Because I am under the impression that one example of the "Intelligent Designer's" handiwork is the bacterial flagellum. There are no material candidate design agents around three billion or so years ago. Or are there?
Craig Venter is not immaterial.
I'll go along with that. Where does that get us?Alicia Renard
December 10, 2014
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WJM writes:
So, if one doesn’t take ID seriously, the question is, why bother debating it? Why bother acting like you’re involved in a serious dialogue?
Whilst it's true to say I don't take ID seriously as a scientific (or philosophical) viewpoint, it does not mean I do not take ID proponents seriously. I think there are some ID proponents who appear genuinely convinced there is some value in the concept and that intrigues me.
Like so many others of AR’s ilk, they don’t come here to “debate” at all; if they don’t take ID ideas seriously, what compels them to involve themselves?
I don't usually do grammar police but you should reread the above and see if you might not like to rephrase it. It doesn't make any sense as written. Who is "they"?
What they do take seriously, IMO, is the ideological threat ID poses to their socio-political agenda. Which is why many of them (like AR, apparently) involve themselves only inasmuch as they can add to the ridicule, dismissal, obfuscation, and denial of those ID ideas.
Who is "they"? What agenda? What ID ideas?
This is why we do not get serious, well-thought arguments and reasonable inferences but rather nothing but invective-laced denials. Perhaps a better line of argument with anti-ID advocates would be to tackle their misguided fears about having a Bible-literal “theocracy” imposed on them and their misguided pursuit of an entirely secularized, materialist society.
The world-at-large takes no notice of the pronouncements of WJM, KF or Barry Arrington, I'm afraid. I think you misunderstand what secularism entails. It entails true intellectual freedom for a plurality of beliefs.
While it probably would be a better targeted approach because IMO anti-IDism (as demonstrated by AR and others here) is a symptom of a larger socio-political worldview conflict, it would probably be as futile to make a worldview case as a scientific one. Materialists/darwinists/anti-theists are highly emotionally committed against religion/spirituality/theism. Their position is apparently not only immune to rational discourse, but actively avoids and attempts to undermine it.
Talk up "Intelligent Design" as much as you want. There has been no genuine progress with the ID paradigm since William Paley.Alicia Renard
December 10, 2014
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AR @ 203: Why do you believe the agent posited by ID advocates is necessarily immaterial? Craig Venter is not immaterial.Barry Arrington
December 10, 2014
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Barry Arrington writes: (in response to my "There is no question that Abu Ambassadeur and other fishing reels were designed and built by Swedes."
AR @ 155. Indicia of design exist. KF’s fishing reel bears such indicia. Yes, we know the provenance of the design with respect to the fishing reel. Why is it so hard to accept that indicia of design point to an intelligent agent, and in some cases that intelligent agent might not be human? Are you suggesting that we know for certain that humans are the only beings in the universe capable of complex designs?
It requires no effort at all to accept that the Abu Ambassadeur reel was designed and built by Swedes. My father had several examples. He worked for a rival company and was tasked with reverse-engineering the design with a view to developing a similar product. His company gave up on it. And I would be the first to suggest there are limits to our knowledge. We cannot see beyond the past light-cone of the Earth. I think a better word that would lead to less confusion would be "purposeful" rather than "intelligent". It better describes people, tool-using primates, beavers, bees and termites. The more important distinction should be made between material purposeful agents about which I cannot imagine we could disagree (aforesaid humans, other primates, etc) and immaterial agents for which we have no evidence or indicia (LOL). As I said previously, if an immaterial agent were writing in the snow, we could observe the apparently uncaused marks appear. An immaterial agent that has entailments could be the subject of a scientific investigation if someone were prepared to offer an opinion (or even a hypothesis) on when, how often, and on what this immaterial agent acts, there should be some interesting physics at the interface between the immùaterial action and the material reaction.Alicia Renard
December 10, 2014
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Graham: What do you think is your purpose ? I watch my fingers purposely tapping keys here. I am opposing ridiculous argumentation on purpose (our language is filled with such purposeful constructs). That is why we will win over the average person because we can ridicule your arguments with common sense, and reduce Darwinism to a laughable cultural detour. Above average people like Thomas Nagle have been watching this large debate and are then able to write a book like Mind And Cosmos and at many places state an appeal to common sense as a counter to materialism. One more example: I frequently go to Paypal and transfer $100 to this website. That money has a new purpose once it is received, so how can that be if I have no purpose? Go ahead, claim I have no purpose - you just do our work for us when you do it. Purpose. Im sure its lovely to have a purpose in life, but my point was: how do you observe such purpose ? Is it something in the air ? The shape of the clouds ? voices in the head ? Lets consider another thought experiment. Since you (by not answering my above proposal) apparently would have no problem telling a kid to their face that their face is meaningless to you, we'll make it about faces. By the way thank you if that is the case; that you would be OK in that, for you are again doing our work for us and the young folk reading here can start to see the relevant absurdities writ large, just by using common sense. And I can point to you as a example of what scientism entails and what it does to people. OK the thought experiment goes like this. We go to a small company headquarters, say a bank with 1000 employees on site. We offer them $50,000,000 to require every employee in the building to wear a head-covering mask, at all times for one workday. Do you think the bank would take the money? We could even present you, Graham, as the front man for the experiment and you could persuade them that certainly since their faces have no purpose, that business would go forward with no disruption. Because science has proven that nothing in life has meaning. Thank you very much for your time.groovamos
December 10, 2014
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Box, I forgot that one: http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/12/souped-up_flage066921.html Muy interesante. KFkairosfocus
December 10, 2014
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Keith: Why has your purported Designer never used gears outside of Issus coleoptratus?
The gear in the flagellum doesn't count? Why is that? Is nano-level discriminated against?Box
December 10, 2014
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Mung
Amazing then, that “unguided evolution” only managed to happen on them once. Eyes are a great idea too. And so “unguided evolution” managed to stumble across eyes numerous times. That’s why “unguided evolution” is so grand. It explains both the lack of gears and the abundance of eyes, both of which are a great idea. With “unguided evolution” you just can’t go wrong.
True! When "unguided evolution" needed some gears, it gradually created them. First the insect couldn't move around at all. Then a few sprockets appeared on one side. Fortunately, evolution is smart enough to realize that the insect needed sprockets that match on the other side! And then it just worked out great. Mutations are simply wonderful whenever you need to build a gear mechanism. Great job evolution! This also is an excellent example of what "unguided evolution" looks like, not something designed. I picked that up right away in the article:
“We usually think of gears as something that we see in human designed machinery, but we’ve found that that is only because we didn’t look hard enough,” Sutton said. “These gears are not designed; they are evolved—representing high speed and precision machinery evolved for synchronisation in the animal world.”
Wait a minute. This is supposed to look like unguided evolution. Why did Mr. Sutton need to tell me that the gears are not designed? I guess he thinks that only ID supporters read the Smithsonian and we have to be warned about imagining that the gears were designed. Ok, from now on, whenever I see high speed precision machinery I need to think of mutations. I'll try to be a good boy and remember "they are evolved".Silver Asiatic
December 10, 2014
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WJM, I see you have nailed the real danger we all face aptly: FASCISM, rooted in Nietzschean superman political messianism that allegedly rescues us from an utterly unprecedented crisis that frightens us into letting go of liberty to gain security. And yes, Fascism is a strange neo-marxian hybrid that has deep roots in marxism, but knows how to strike at first mutually beneficial deals with the crony capitalists and cartelised industries . . . or with any other relevant centres of power. Then, people learn the hard way -- yet again -- on what it is to strike a deal with the devil. KFkairosfocus
December 10, 2014
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KS, I should note on your projection about fighting evidence to maintain preconceptions: 0 --> Actually, Lewontin got the lock on that for a priori materialism (just a prelim point):
It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes [[--> another major begging of the question . . . ] to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute [[--> i.e. here we see the fallacious, indoctrinated, ideological, closed mind . . . ], for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. [NYRB article 1997, cf here for wider cite with highlights and annotations, this is not quote mined pace a common attempted rebuttal point.]
1 --> I note, it is possible to be a theologically responsible Christian and accept universal common descent by evolutionary mechanisms. (And indeed, the co-founder of evo theory, Wallace, believed the evidence pointed to intelligently directed evolution, cf his The World of Life.) 2 --> I point this out to indicate, that I do not accept the design inference on FSCO/I as applied to the world of life for theological a priori reasons. (I do so for the simple reason that that's where the inductive logic points, backed up by the same sort of needle in haystack search challenge that leads me to accept the 2nd law of thermodynamics in statistical form.) 3 --> I must point out that the evidence of the cell, relative o what we know about physics, chem and thermo-d, makes OOL scenarios pivoting on blind chance and mechanical necessity utterly implausible, such that the major school of thought currently stand in mutual ruin. 4 --> Therefore, I find myself led to see that cell based life, chock full of FSCO/I, is credibly designed -- the ONLY empirically known cause of FSCO/I . . . backed up by needle in haystack analysis in the context of the implications of Wicken wiring diagram interactive organisation to achieve function, aka go to a tackle shop and inspect an Abu 6500 C3 reel for yourself to rivet the reality of FSCO/I. That puts design at the table right from the root of the tree of life, and decisively shifts estimation of evidence beyond that point on origin of body plans and key features right up to the critical linguistic equipment that is so closely associated with human intelligence. 5 --> And that BTW is a part of the context in which I have for over two years put on the table an open invitation to darwinists, that I would host a 6000 word essay on the tree of life, if they can provide a cogently argued, empirically grounded case. No serious takers to date -- but a lot of attacks and sneering. 6 --> Beyond the world of life, I look as well as one trained in physical sciences and fascinated with astronomy since my youth, to the issue of cosmological fine tuning. (Now you know some of the context in which Sir Fred Hoyle is a personal scientific hero.) 7 --> I find the cumulative evidence of fine tuning highly instructive, especially how the cosmos is so set up from core physics that the first four most abundant elements are H, He, O, C, with N close by. Stars and galaxies, the rest of the periodic table, water with its astonishing cluster or properties, swiss army knife organic chem based on C as connector block atom [the SAK is another common case of FSCO/I], proteins -- bang, bang, bang, bang. With properties written into the physics of the cosmos. 8 --> Hoyle's phrasing is apt: a put-up job. Mind ontologically before matter as cosmos. 9 --> I turn to computation vs contemplation, and see that rocks cannot credibly dream, and that computation on refined rocks is a blind mechanical process. Mindedness is something that is ontologically distinct from what rocks do, and mindedness brings forth the intellect and the volitional, including causal effects. I may not understand all of it -- none of us does, but must pay it some serious respect. Haldane's retort on materialistic reductionism is still telling 80+ years later:
"It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” [["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209.]
10 --> Then, I find that the first principles of reason, linked weak form sufficient reason and necessity vs contingency of being speak volumes on how I should understand reality, building my worldview. 11 --> For me, the decisive pivot is, to see that I and others of like nature are inescapably morally governed creatures. The only basis for that, on the IS-OUGHT gap challenge, is in the worldview foundations, an IS who grounds OUGHT. The only serious candidate is an inherently good creator God, who is a necessary and maximally great being. 12 --> So, I am a theist on philosophical principles, utterly separate from being an intellectually satisfied Christian on experience with God -- including being alive today and not in the grave 40 years since because of miracles of guidance -- and on a pattern of historical warrant I find decisive regarding Jesus of Nazareth. So, KS, I am not at all struggling with overwhelming opposed evidence at all. Far from it. Your imagined picture is a rhetorically loaded strawman projection. Please, revise it. KFkairosfocus
December 10, 2014
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