Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Religion And Intelligent Design Theory

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The history of science is – of course – full of theories that have been proposed by people with deep religious or philosophical convictions (including materialism).  These great minds and others around and after them have often opined about the social, philosophical and religious implications of their scientific discoveries or the discoveries and theories of others.  Certain scientific discoveries and theories are often extrapolated into social perspectives and even used to support political agendas. Eugenics, for example, was advocated for and embraced by various Darwinism proponents.

Religion has been brought up several times here at UD and there is no home thread for it to be discussed or debated. I thought I’d provide one for those that wish to engage in such a discussion.  Some here seem to be arguing under the assumption that only those who adhere to some form of Abrahamic faith are IDists; I’m not of any organized religion.   I’ve never even read the Bible or Koran.  I was raised very loosely as a Methodist but at 17 turned to Eastern philosophies, later became a hard-core materialist atheist and maybe 15 or so years ago became something of combination classical and “new age” theist – but those tags can be very misleading due to the nature of my idiosyncratic views.

I was initially drawn to the ID debate not because it was necessary or favorable to my views, but rather because those who made anti-ID arguments were making such laughably bad arguments, and ID proponents made some very reasonable arguments that were met with an openly dismissive hostility that intrigued me.  I’ve actually developed my theistic views in about the same time frame that I’ve been involved in the ID debate, as those on the ID side employed and directed others to more classical arguments about god, existence and the use of logic.  My spiritual views do not require that evolution be guided, so I’m not in this argument to support any worldview a prioris.

Others here have argued that because leading ID advocates have religious views and because they may use ID to pursue a social/political agenda, that in itself disqualifies ID as a legitimate scientific theory.  If I have to tell you how bad this logic is, there’s probably no hope for you. If a Darwinist uses Darwinism as a basis (legitimate or not) for pursuing a Eugenics program where “inferior” people are sterilized, that doesn’t say anything about the theory itself.  The theory of ID, like the theory of Darwinistic evolution,  must be argued on its scientific merits alone and not on the matter of the motivations, religious beliefs, or character of those advocating ID theory or using it for various non-scientific promotions.

Even if (hypothetically) young-earth Christian fundamentalists do plan to use ID via the “Wedge Document” to form a theocratic government and force students to study the Bible, that would have no bearing on whether or not ID itself is a good scientific theory.  Even if all ID advocates are lying hypocrites with dastardly plans to use ID in some horrific social fashion, that is still not a valid argument that ID theory is not scientific.

 

Comments
Graham2 said:
WJM: Yeah, sure. I don’t know where you live, but in western countrys its precisely because religion is kept in check by secular authority that we have rights.
Nothing could be further from the truth. The only reason the modern concept of inviolable human rights exist and has been employed as a foundational limitation to governance here in the west is because of Christianity, period. The founding forefathers were explicit that while some degree of secularism was necessary to keep religious persecution by the government in check, they also firmly held that a common religious foundation was essential to keep the country intact. This is why the founding government of the USA did things like purchase and distribute Bibles and pay churches to proselytize on the frontier and in the army rank and file. A secular "authority" that isn't constrained by religious beliefs consilient with the idea of inviolable human rights and a sacrosanct view of personal liberty is ... well ... China, or the old Soviet Union, where there is no such thing as "human rights" and no higher authority than the state.
If you want to see what happens when its not, go to one of the theocracies where they cut off hands etc.
I agree that theocracies are bad; so are entirely secular governments. The more secularized a society becomes, the more and more personal liberty and individual rights become nothing more than commodities the state uses and adjusts according to its agenda and for the benefit of the elite.
Don’t think it cant happen in good ole USA … the Christian dominionists, reconstructionists etc etc are just waiting for a chance to be let off the chain.
Well, it's nice of you to validate my thesis about the nature of anti-ID advocates. Your anti-Christian fear is palpable, as it is with most who come here to argue. I doubt anything I say can penetrate the mind of someone focused on theocratic conspiracies involving a handful of supposed zealots while oblivious to the current, ongoing erosion and commoditization of his liberties and rights by secular, big-state, crony-capitalist socialists/marxists. There's a term for people who have their fears and idealism manipulated into aiding those wishing to establish fascism: useful idiots.William J Murray
December 10, 2014
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IDers are constantly fighting against the evidence ...
You keep saying that as if saying it means something. The reality is keith and his ilk are constantly fighting against the evidence and that has been supported many time over.Joe
December 10, 2014
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RB:
That said, I harbor no doubt that the general picture of the history of life subsequent to the OOL supplied by evolutionary science is correct.
LoL! Most people do harbor doubt that the general picture of the history of life subsequent to the OOL supplied by evolutionary science is correct. That is because not one biologist can test the claim- no one can. It isn't science.Joe
December 10, 2014
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KS, Let's see. We have gears as an example of FSCO/I where we have a strong inductive basis that FSCO/I is an index of design. We also have a situation where the same prong meshing principle of the gear is used in every cell that makes proteins, to couple codons to anticodons. Your response? Oh, we have only one known case of gears in life forms and were I the designer I would use them more frequently so I want to infer that the better explanation is no designer. That selective hyperskepticism rather suggests you wrote your conclusion before ever looking at the evidence. KFkairosfocus
December 10, 2014
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Graham2:
voices in the head ?
Yes, unfortunately.keith s
December 10, 2014
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KF #187, The point is that your Designer's "behavior" with respect to gears makes a lot more sense if there is no designer. IDers are constantly fighting against the evidence in order to hang on to their religious preconceptions.keith s
December 10, 2014
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GA @183: Purpose. Im sure its lovely to have a purpose in life, but my point was: how do you observe such purpose ? Is it something in the air ? The shape of the clouds ? voices in the head ? What do you think is your purpose ?Graham2
December 10, 2014
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DavidD
Personally I enjoy Mung’s humour which is the only true viable response to absurd rants and diatribes which are not ever meant to be taken seriously
And this is exactly why I've changed my attitude and started replying with a bit of humour (funny or not). The nonsense we get subjected to everyday is ludicrous.Andre
December 9, 2014
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RB - "That said, I harbor no doubt that the general picture of the history of life subsequent to the OOL supplied by evolutionary science is correct." So you are a person of Great Faith, thanks for sharing that ---- RB - "And that said, I think your contributions to UD would be a lot more valuable if you abandoned the snarknado approach to commenting, Mung." Amazing, the usual Double Standard and Pot to Kettle default answer. I'm curious, why do you not hold your people to the same self-righteous standard you demand from Mung, a people who are far more experienced and proficient in the practice of Snarkiness and Smartassism ? Personally I enjoy Mung's humor which is the only true viable response to absurd rants and diatribes which are not ever meant to be taken seriously other than illustrating their hated for another person's faith different from yours. Your above Faith Affirmation on OoL merely confirms this, so once again, thank you for the clarification and confirmation. All these debates and arguments on the evolutionist's side has nothing to do with science, because it's always been about the religion, which is why the theory was invented in the first place by a bitter old man who gained a sympathetic following over time. All Mung is doing is simply illustrating the absurdity with absurdity.DavidD
December 9, 2014
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KS, I note, that I long since addressed gears as a particular manifestation of FSCO/I here. If you are willing to acknowledge that gears in an organism as a manifestation of FSCO/I point to design, that should be significant. If you wish instead to argue that gears and many other forms of FSCO/I in organisms can reasonably -- per the vera causa (true cause) test -- be accounted for on blind chance and mechanical necessity, the onus is on you to provide observational warrant that FSCO/I arises in that way. There are trillions of cases in point on how FSCO/I routinely, reliably comes about by design, and this is backed up by the needle in haystack, sparse blind search challenge. As to the notion, why use just once (that we are aware of), my thought still is -- with all due respect, red herring, one led away from the pivotal issue, FSCO/I. Where, whether or no I or others have an answer has no relevance to the pivotal issue, again: FSCO/I as an inductively rooted, analytically plausible, strong sign of design. Where also, it is an instance of inherently unreasonable selective hyperskepticism to suggest or hold that unless one can answer any and/or all arbitrary tangential questions linked to a matter, then the pivotal one under discussion can be discarded. Taken at face value, that would instantly destroy the progressive, cumulative pursuit of scientific, historical, mathematical and many other forms of knowledge. KF PS: I add, that on pondering the protein assembly process that is ubiquitous in cell based life, the mRNA tape, tRNA codon-anticodon prong-height mesh/match system is a manifestation of the same interlocking principle used in gears.kairosfocus
December 9, 2014
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Mung & Joe: Thanks for some very on-point responses. I trust RB and KS will attend to them. KF PS: I hope the objectors who for so long so stridently objected to the observable and quantifiable reality of FSCO/I, and to its reliably observed cause, will at minimum be inclined to pay some heed to and acknowledge the force of Orgel's extended citation and also to listen to Wicken on the significance of wiring diagram based functional organisation. (Cf. here on, which I have updated on your extension, Mung.)kairosfocus
December 9, 2014
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WJM, thanks for an excellent summary. I hope my initial elaboration will prove of some use. KF PS: I should add that the 2nd para of the US DOI is as close to a political creed for me as anything is. I think school children should memorise it and be taught how to properly understand it.kairosfocus
December 9, 2014
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G2 & AR et al: Perhaps, a reminder of certain historic state-papers of the USA is in order:
DOI, 1776: When . . . it becomes necessary for one people . . . to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. We hold these truths to be self-evident, [cf Rom 1:18 - 21, 2:14 - 15], that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security . . . . We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions [Cf. Judges 11:27 and discussion in Locke], do, in the Name, and by the Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor. CONST, 1787: We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America . . . . [Main Body, Arts I - VII] . . . . Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the Twelfth. In Witness whereof We have hereunto subscribed our Names. . . . . [AMENDMENTS].
To understand a tad more on the context for the first and the highlighted phrase in the latter, I suggest this call to penitence and prayer issued by the Continental Congress for May 1776:
FOR MAY 1776: In times of impending calamity and distress; when the liberties of America are imminently endangered by the secret machinations and open assaults of an insidious and vindictive administration, it becomes the indispensable duty of these hitherto free and happy colonies, with true penitence of heart, and the most reverent devotion, publickly to acknowledge the over ruling providence of God; to confess and deplore our offences against him; and to supplicate his interposition for averting the threatened danger, and prospering our strenuous efforts in the cause of freedom, virtue, and posterity.. . . Desirous, at the same time, to have people of all ranks and degrees duly impressed with a solemn sense of God's superintending providence, and of their duty, devoutly to rely, in all their lawful enterprizes, on his aid and direction, Do earnestly recommend, that Friday, the Seventeenth day of May next, be observed by the said colonies as a day of humiliation, fasting, and prayer; that we may, with united hearts, confess and bewail our manifold sins and transgressions, and, by a sincere repentance and amendment of life, appease his righteous displeasure, and, through the merits and mediation of Jesus Christ, obtain his pardon and forgiveness; humbly imploring his assistance to frustrate the cruel purposes of our unnatural enemies; . . . that it may please the Lord of Hosts, the God of Armies, to animate our officers and soldiers with invincible fortitude, to guard and protect them in the day of battle, and to crown the continental arms, by sea and land, with victory and success: Earnestly beseeching him to bless our civil rulers, and the representatives of the people, in their several assemblies and conventions; to preserve and strengthen their union, to inspire them with an ardent, disinterested love of their country; to give wisdom and stability to their counsels; and direct them to the most efficacious measures for establishing the rights of America on the most honourable and permanent basis—That he would be graciously pleased to bless all his people in these colonies with health and plenty, and grant that a spirit of incorruptible patriotism, and of pure undefiled religion, may universally prevail; and this continent be speedily restored to the blessings of peace and liberty, and enabled to transmit them inviolate to the latest posterity. And it is recommended to Christians of all denominations, to assemble for public worship, and abstain from servile labour on the said day.
I would suggest that the secularised version of the rise of modern liberty and democracy that has become conventional wisdom, needs significant revision in light of some relevant evidence. Further to that, upon reflection on the valid part of Hume's guillotine argument, you will find that in grounding rights (which are binding moral claims for respect rooted in our core nature . . . and thus purpose), the 1776 US DOI is correct to point to the only serious candidate IS that can ground OUGHT: the inherently good, creator God who is a necessary and maximally great being. As well as, the Reformation-rooted, double-covenant understanding of the community:
i: nationhood under God per Ac 17 etc, and ii: government under God as further rooted in the premise that we are morally governed creatures endowed by God with purpose, conscience, reason and awareness of our common equality in His image.
Yes, there has been a lot of emphasis on tyranny rooted in religious fanaticism or using religion as a part of its cloak of legitimacy. What has been needed but is conspicuously absent, is a balance informed by the major contribution of the Judaeo-Christian tradition to the rise of modern liberty and democratic self government rooted in the civil peace of justice. And, some reflection on secularist and/or neopagan abuses and tyrannies over the past century would also help us come to a sounder insight and balance. (I suggest a glance at some notes here on as a starter.) Namely, as aptly put by Lord Acton, that power tends to corrupt, that power without effective accountability or limit corrupts absolutely, and that by and large men who wield power as part of unaccountable circles of concentrated power and control or wealth are bad men. This, of course speaks straight to the problems of ever so many of the ambitious, the would be political messiahs and those who have actually taken power by manipulation and worse in our day. Failure to rebalance thought on this matter, in my considered view, is tantamount to a massive failure to learn and heed the lessons of history that were paid for in blood and tears. Such refusal predictably leads to paying the same price again, to relearn the hard way what could easily have been profited from, apart from the folly of being too wise in one's own eyes to have simply read, pondered and heeded what we can find as close to hand as key state papers and classic works by deeply insightful men. But then, I am extremely pessimistic about the prospects of our civilisation at this time. It was Marx who aptly said, that history repeats itself, the first time as tragedy, the second as farce. KFkairosfocus
December 9, 2014
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Graham2 @ 117: I’ll make it simpler … ‘purpose’. Could you explain how we observe this ? I would think I've just read something from someone who is a perfect illustration and thus definitive product of the societal "built-in mechanisms" to which I referred @ 108. I tell you what Graham, if you have a child or grandchild 6~9 years old why don't you perform an experiment. It will be based on the converse proposition, and the utility of the results will point to the usefulness of the premise. Tell that child that things with no purpose have no meaning for you which would be a perfectly logical premise. Then tell that child - and absolutely insist in all seriousness that you really mean this - that the face of that child has no purpose (the logical edification that the human face is a product of purposeless nature). I hope you really didn't mean your query to read the way it does, and that you are just drawing us out to add more of a common sense approach to the thread. Really, the ongoing demolition of Darwinism is based on common sense, as it is with this common sense that we endeavor to appeal to awakening intuition in the average person, dulled as it may have been by the efforts of the intelligentsia.groovamos
December 9, 2014
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WJM: Yeah, sure. I don't know where you live, but in western countrys its precisely because religion is kept in check by secular authority that we have rights. If you want to see what happens when its not, go to one of the theocracies where they cut off hands etc. Don't think it cant happen in good ole USA ... the Christian dominionists, reconstructionists etc etc are just waiting for a chance to be let off the chain.Graham2
December 9, 2014
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Mung:
So you [Reciprocating Bill] reject evolution (natural events) as an explanation because we don’t know the origin of life? How else are we to understand what you wrote?
Reciprocating Bill: …there are approximately five million trillion trillion bacteria on earth, each an instance of FSCO/I (you claim). As we don’t know the origins of life, the origins of these instances cannot be assigned either to design or to natural events unless one assumes a conclusion regarding the very question at issue.
We all understand that a solution to the OOL puzzle is far from at hand, although many tantalizing pieces are in the box and some corners and edges have been joined. I expect the problem to be solved within the framework of the natural sciences, although probably not in my lifetime, were I made to lay a bet. But I can’t simply assume that - perhaps the problem is insoluble, due not the least to the ~35 million centuries that separate us from those events. That said, I harbor no doubt that the general picture of the history of life subsequent to the OOL supplied by evolutionary science is correct. And that said, I think your contributions to UD would be a lot more valuable if you abandoned the snarknado approach to commenting, Mung.Reciprocating Bill
December 9, 2014
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AR said:
US secularism guarantees your right to freedom to follow the religion of your choice. Your unique “spirituality” could get you condemned to death if you lived in Pakistan.
Secularism, in and of itself, guarantees me nothing. China has a secular government and doesn't tolerate much in the way of religious expression. "Secularism" is not the equivalent of "religious freedom". The reason I have religious freedom is not because of secularism, but rather because a group of Christians considered it a divine right for people to worship god as they see fit, and considered that right transcendent to all state power. Without the concept of transcendent, natural rights, a concept not derivable from meager "secularism", I would have no individual rights considered to be above the rule of the state. I would just be the property of the secular state to do with as it sees fit. It is not secularism that provides my right to freedom of religion, but rather the non-secular worldview that individuals have a transcendent right to liberty and freedom of belief. This is what your ilk does not understand in its blind pursuit of a secularized society; a government not bound by belief in the transcendent rights of man has no reason not to simply treat us as property, and every justification for doing so.William J Murray
December 9, 2014
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Why has your purported Designer never used gears outside of Issus coleoptratus?
Who cares? A design used only once is still a design.Mung
December 9, 2014
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keiths:
Gears are a great idea, and humans use them all over the place.
Amazing then, that "unguided evolution" only managed to happen on them once. Eyes are a great idea too. And so "unguided evolution" managed to stumble across eyes numerous times. That's why "unguided evolution" is so grand. It explains both the lack of gears and the abundance of eyes, both of which are a great idea. With "unguided evolution" you just can't go wrong.Mung
December 9, 2014
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If we take FSCO/I to be the Shannon Information for a sequence with function, then the FSCO/I is the same for a sequence with weakly performing function or a sequence with a highly specified function.
I don't believe you. The tighter the specification the higher the information as the variational tolerance is low, meaning there is a smaller subset of possible specified sequences that can produce that function.Joe
December 9, 2014
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Why has your purported Designer never used gears outside of Issus coleoptratus?
Asking us to prove a negative, keith? No one knows if what you say is true and unguided evolution can't explain Issus coleoptratus- so you lose, regardless
In fact, he acts an awful lot like unguided evolution.
That is incorrect as unguided evolution is impotent and only intelligent design can explain the universe, the earth and living organisms. You lose, againJoe
December 9, 2014
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FSC is FSCO/I- both pertain to biological function and sequence specificity. If you have FSCO/I then you have FSC.Joe
December 9, 2014
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KF #169,
I think a reasonable onlooker will easily see that the claimed boredom is that or resistance to an evident fact that the reel demonstrates...
A reasonable onlooker will see that you are dodging the question: Why has your purported Designer never used gears outside of Issus coleoptratus? Gears are a great idea, and humans use them all over the place. Your designer doesn't. In fact, he acts an awful lot like unguided evolution. If the evidence points to unguided evolution, why infer design?keith s
December 9, 2014
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kairosfocus: As has been pointed out literally seven years ago in the literature by Durston et al. Durston et al. measures something they define as FSC, not FSCO/I. It's defined in terms not only of a given function, but the mutational specificity of the sequence for a given degree of function. kairosfocus: one metric is Shannon info associated with functionally specific state If we take FSCO/I to be the Shannon Information for a sequence with function, then the FSCO/I is the same for a sequence with weakly performing function or a sequence with a highly specified function.Zachriel
December 9, 2014
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Meanwhile, Reciprocating Bill sticks to his guns. The number of things which are unknown vastly out-number the number of things that are known. Therefore nothing can be known. The sample size just isn't big enough. And RB continues to ignore the question: So you [Reciprocating Bill] reject evolution (natural events) as an explanation because we don’t know the origin of life? How else are we to understand what you wrote? Reciprocating Bill:
…there are approximately five million trillion trillion bacteria on earth, each an instance of FSCO/I (you claim). As we don’t know the origins of life, the origins of these instances cannot be assigned either to design or to natural events unless one assumes a conclusion regarding the very question at issue.
Mung
December 9, 2014
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Mung: Far more organisms have lived and died than are represented in the fossil record … Far more DNA has existed than has been sampled. Zachriel: Then the question becomes whether the data is representative, and whether a detected pattern is statistically significant. Are you saying that something we know was designed may not in fact be designed because it consists of a sample of one?Mung
December 9, 2014
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Z, one metric is Shannon info associated with functionally specific state. As has been pointed out literally seven years ago in the literature by Durston et al. KFkairosfocus
December 9, 2014
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KS, red herring led away to a strawman. First, you are dodging the point that gears are a case of FSCO/I, as is the wider Abu 6500 C3 . . . which you neatly suppressed by snipping out of context. It is FSCO/I that is the relevant, empirically observable sign of design. Where also, life forms abound in mechanisms, ball-socket joints (your hips), coded information tapes, readers and NC machines that use them (to make proteins), acid ion powered rotary motors (flagellum and ATP synthase), lenses, sensor arrays (retina, hearing), sonar (bats and whales . . . with closely similar genetic code involved) and ever so many more. I think a reasonable onlooker will easily see that the claimed boredom is that or resistance to an evident fact that the reel demonstrates: the reality of FSCO/I, its connexion to wiring diagram functionally specific patterns, and the onward way that uses node-arc networks to specify information content. I notice, that to date, regardless of direct demonstration of the reality of FSCO/I and how it readily yields information values, there is a refusal to acknowledge the point and in fact the same basic objections continue. In effect, the message being sent is: zero concessions just go away, don't confront us with inconvenient facts, we are not going to change our minds -- don't bore us with those inconvenient facts. Sorry, the Abu 6500 C3 reel is a direct, concrete, readily understood demonstration of the reality of FSCO/I and its link to how specific function requires particular arrangements of interacting parts, yielding a pattern of islands of function in large configuration spaces. KFkairosfocus
December 9, 2014
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kairosfocus: The functional, operational procedure is chain length of structured string of y/n q’s to specify state is info metric in bits. So if a sequence has some sort of function, then the FSCO/I is the Shannon Information of the sequence?Zachriel
December 9, 2014
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Z: The functional, operational procedure is chain length of structured string of y/n q's to specify state is info metric in bits. The difference with the PC file sizes is they cluster in 8-bit chunks, bytes. A commonplace, and the refusal to acknowledge something so simple is telling. KFkairosfocus
December 9, 2014
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