Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Religion And Intelligent Design Theory

Categories
Intelligent Design
Share
Facebook
Twitter/X
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

The history of science is – of course – full of theories that have been proposed by people with deep religious or philosophical convictions (including materialism).  These great minds and others around and after them have often opined about the social, philosophical and religious implications of their scientific discoveries or the discoveries and theories of others.  Certain scientific discoveries and theories are often extrapolated into social perspectives and even used to support political agendas. Eugenics, for example, was advocated for and embraced by various Darwinism proponents.

Religion has been brought up several times here at UD and there is no home thread for it to be discussed or debated. I thought I’d provide one for those that wish to engage in such a discussion.  Some here seem to be arguing under the assumption that only those who adhere to some form of Abrahamic faith are IDists; I’m not of any organized religion.   I’ve never even read the Bible or Koran.  I was raised very loosely as a Methodist but at 17 turned to Eastern philosophies, later became a hard-core materialist atheist and maybe 15 or so years ago became something of combination classical and “new age” theist – but those tags can be very misleading due to the nature of my idiosyncratic views.

I was initially drawn to the ID debate not because it was necessary or favorable to my views, but rather because those who made anti-ID arguments were making such laughably bad arguments, and ID proponents made some very reasonable arguments that were met with an openly dismissive hostility that intrigued me.  I’ve actually developed my theistic views in about the same time frame that I’ve been involved in the ID debate, as those on the ID side employed and directed others to more classical arguments about god, existence and the use of logic.  My spiritual views do not require that evolution be guided, so I’m not in this argument to support any worldview a prioris.

Others here have argued that because leading ID advocates have religious views and because they may use ID to pursue a social/political agenda, that in itself disqualifies ID as a legitimate scientific theory.  If I have to tell you how bad this logic is, there’s probably no hope for you. If a Darwinist uses Darwinism as a basis (legitimate or not) for pursuing a Eugenics program where “inferior” people are sterilized, that doesn’t say anything about the theory itself.  The theory of ID, like the theory of Darwinistic evolution,  must be argued on its scientific merits alone and not on the matter of the motivations, religious beliefs, or character of those advocating ID theory or using it for various non-scientific promotions.

Even if (hypothetically) young-earth Christian fundamentalists do plan to use ID via the “Wedge Document” to form a theocratic government and force students to study the Bible, that would have no bearing on whether or not ID itself is a good scientific theory.  Even if all ID advocates are lying hypocrites with dastardly plans to use ID in some horrific social fashion, that is still not a valid argument that ID theory is not scientific.

 

Comments
RB:
You dazzle yourself with numbers of individual instances of human actions and communications, each of which traces back to human agency and intelligence (what a surprise). Problem is, your “trillions” of instances are massively dwarfed by instances of biological phenomena, claimed to be analogous, the origins of which we do not yet understand.
LoL! RB is just upset that his position doesn't have anything, no numbers, no methodology and no analogies. NothingJoe
December 9, 2014
December
12
Dec
9
09
2014
03:08 AM
3
03
08
AM
PDT
Try this one: Biologist;we know fish became tetrapods around 300-360 million years ago.
And yet tetrapod tracks were found in sediments dated to 395 million years ago.Joe
December 9, 2014
December
12
Dec
9
09
2014
03:07 AM
3
03
07
AM
PDT
AR, I note to you that the rain fairises etc strawman was refuted. Similarly, minds happen to be invisible but plainly causal in effect, whilst computational devices are blindly mechanical systems, not rationally insightful ones. So, you would be well advised to consult J B S Haldane's 80 year old caution on materialistic reductionism of mind to brain:
"It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” ["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209.]
In short, though it is ever so dominant in our day in many quarters to the point of being a sort of conventional wisdom of those who desire to be accepted as intelligent and educated, the materialist conception of mindedness, conscious intelligence and rational knowledge based on contemplative insight, is on very shaky grounds indeed. It is not effective to try to get North by heading West. KFkairosfocus
December 9, 2014
December
12
Dec
9
09
2014
02:31 AM
2
02
31
AM
PDT
RVB8: There is a simple directly testable prediction on the table, that FSCO/I will continue to be a characteristic sign of design as cause; which is deeply involved in the vera causa test. To test it, simply generate a credibly observed case where it comes about by blind chance and/or mechanical necessity without design having been front loaded intelligently. Probably the simplest way to do that is to set up a zener or sky noise source that can generate say 72 ACII characters of continuous text in correct, meaningful English. Cf here for a quick note on the situation with such to date, a factor of 10^100 or so short of the config space scope we imply. KFkairosfocus
December 9, 2014
December
12
Dec
9
09
2014
02:19 AM
2
02
19
AM
PDT
RB: Inductive reasoning and critical thinking 101, here (linked at 109 above) may be a first help. Science and its methods, rest on that. I assume, here, that you accept that science is a reasonable and objective, truth-seeking process wherein ideas and proposals are constrained by actual empirical observations; not -- pace Lewontin et al -- a worldview commitment based a priori question-begging assumption driven ideological one. Science and politics do not mix, well, whether institutional politics or state politics. Power and truth are far too often at odds. Now, we know a common phenomenon, FSCO/I -- and its consistently observed cause. (Those who were recently sniffing at the idea of looking at a fishing reel, the Abu 6500 C3, seem to overlook that this is a simplification of the works in a clock [by a firm that made its name by building clocks and applications of clocks to taxi meters, which per a photo I saw go back to the days of horse drawn taxis], applied to a different task, illustrating the commonplace node-arcs based wiring diagram pattern of things that depend on correctly oriented, correctly placed and interacting parts to work. Which, per Orgel and Wicken et al, extends tot he world of life and is information-rich, as we know from what we do when we do an engineering drawing with say AutoCAD or whatever.) We observe FSCO/I's cause, on trillions of cases in point. Consistently, intelligently directed contingency. Now, on blind chance and necessity search, the needle in haystack challenge shows why that observation is so, even on cosmic scale resources. Trial and error is not a good method to find FSCO/I. And the very high contingency involved makes mechanical necessity a very unlikely explanation, unless you are prepared to show on observed evidence how the cosmos programs life to form in terrestrial planets or the like. Which would point straight to massive front-loading of the physics of the cosmos. Back to inductive logic in science 101. The vera causa test on the remote past of origins, is premised on the point that we cannot observe it, only its traces. Therefore, we must constrain ourselves to explanation on causal factors we can observe that are adequate to such effects. Where, again, the consistently observed cause of FSCO/I is . . . intelligently directed contingency. (What you just tried to distract focus from.) As in, but, we see FSCO/I and cellular self-replication based reproduction in life forms. Yes, which we do not know directly the origin of as that is in the remote past of origins. So we have to start from the things we can see that give rise to key effects and phenomena found in life, such as FSCO/I -- as Orgel and Wicken pointed to across the 1970's. Let's use stepwise points of thought: 1 --> Life reproduces, pivoting on cells exhibiting self-replication using a von Neumann kinematic self replication facility, vNSR for short. 2 --> Which is itself FSCO/I rich. 3 --> So, the matter is not so much that we have many many instances of life which self replicates at cellular level and reproduces at other levels, but that the origin of such is to be explained on causes adequate to the phenomenon. 4 --> A point put on the table since Paley in 1804 in ch II of his Nat Theol, moved from stumbling across a watch vs a stone in a field to -- just a few pages later -- a thought exercise of a self replicating watch. (Something that is conspicuously absent from the dismissive discussions I have seen; even, when I see remarks on how deeply Darwin had studied Paley. Paley's conclusion to that little thought exercise was, that the additional facility of self replication and the mechanisms to effect it should increase our wonder at the contrivance involved, i.e. it would be further evidence of design. ) 5 --> In the teeth of massive evidence of the root of FSCO/I, you wish to provide a case of something that pivots on FSCO/I to work, then to suggest that our inability to observe the remote past of origins means we should put the vera causa test aside and allow speculation on chemistry and physics to create self replicators to stand in the teeth of what we know about the empirical challenges faced by such speculations. Fail. 6 --> The correct process, instead, is to observe and identify key phenomena, then assess credible cause anchored to current observed adequate cause, and especially cases where adequate cause is observed to be characteristic. 7 --> FSCO/I is such a key phenomenon, one that happens to be abundantly common in cases we can observe, trillions of cases in point. With a characteristic adequate cause, intelligently directed configuration, not blind chance and/or mechanical necessity. 8 --> So, on noticing how life forms replicate using processes that reflect the vNSR model in action and which embed massive FSCO/I we are entitled to infer on best current explanation that we are looking a phenomena that are rooted in design. 9 --> For in a solar system and cosmos with a finitely remote past the notion of life as infinite in duration is off the table. 10 --> Life thus had a beginning, and therefore its origin has a cause that must be adequate. 11 --> A main characteristic feature of cell based life is FSCO/I, which does have a massively documented, needle in haystack search plausible cause, intelligently directed configuration, aka design. 12 --> One is free to investigate whether other things, however remote, can account for FSCO/I, but the massively substantiated point needs to be acknowledged. As at now, the best current explanation of the FSCO/I in life as in other cases, is design. 13 --> Design theory and in particular the output of the design inference per aspect filter process, is a serious, inductively grounded scientific contention, not an uninvited, ill-founded, irrelevant imposition on the phenomena. (And, someone just above needs to be reminded that the rain fairy etc strawman caricature has been taken up and refuted. Clinging to the refuted to manipulate the ill-informed, is a sign of message dominance ideological agit-prop not intellectually serious truth-seeking discussion.) 14 --> Further to this, we need to recall that the physics and chemistry, especially the thermodynamics and reaction kinetics of warm salty ponds or cold comet cores or hot subsea fumaroles etc etc exerts a constraint on origin of life speculations. 15 --> That constraint strongly points away from the plausibility of spontaneous origin of self replicating molecules or the like, and much moreso, away from origin of gated, encapsulated, metabolising cells using proteins, assembling proteins on coded algorithms using ribosomes, and with info storage and retrieval systems using D/RNA. 16 --> Likewise, the increments in FSCO/I to explain novel body plans and major features, requiring perhaps 10 - 100+ mn bases of functionally specific, regulated and correctly implemented information, is a severe challenge to mutations, drift, junk dna as a vehicle for blind search, other non foresighted engines of variation and the like filtered through culling by differential reproductive success in ecological niches. Especially in a 600 MY window or a 6 MY window for say chimplike ancestor to man vs chimps today. 17 --> In summary, FSCO/I, biologically functional form, is a pivotal issue for origin of life and of body plans up to our own. Therefore,t eh evidence on the observed adequate cause of FSCO/I is pivotal. 18 --> And that evidence, issues of self replicating cells and linked phenomena such as reproduction of life forms notwithstanding, points to intelligently directed configuration as best causal explanation. KFkairosfocus
December 9, 2014
December
12
Dec
9
09
2014
02:11 AM
2
02
11
AM
PDT
To put it a bit differently, the pattern itself is evidence for the presence of a capable designer, given that we have no inkling of how the pattern could be produced by unintelligent natural processes or what such an explanation would even look like.
Hmm. Perhaps the point in contention is the capabilities of incorporeal artisans versus physical entities like humans, beavers, termites. When we see marks in the snow being traced by invisible fingers, then I might have to start taking ID ideas seriously. I hope those dogs were huskies.Alicia Renard
December 9, 2014
December
12
Dec
9
09
2014
12:52 AM
12
12
52
AM
PDT
Wow! Haven’t posted here since 2005 when I was banned for calling Denyse a ‘talentless hack’; sorry.
Welcome to the future. You sure have a lot of catching up to do.
Perhaps someone could help out with a post topic on "Scientific Developments in Intelligent Design since 2005". It shouldn't take up too much time or space. :)Alicia Renard
December 9, 2014
December
12
Dec
9
09
2014
12:45 AM
12
12
45
AM
PDT
RVB8
Try this one: Biologist;we know fish became tetrapods around 300-360 million years ago. Biologist to geologist; we need sedimentary rocks about 300-360 million years old to find transitional fossils, where should we look? Geologist to biologist; go north young man, to the arctic isles of Canada. Tiktalik discovered! Theory, prediction, confirmation.
LOL! Except Tiktaalik is not transitional it's just a lobe finned fish that could walk on the bottom of a lake or river..... http://www.isciencetimes.com/articles/6667/20140113/walking-fish-underwater-pelvis-hip-socket-fins-tiktaalik-roseae.htm The conclusion is telling.......
"It's reasonable to suppose with those big fin rays, that Tiktaalik used its hind fins to swim like a paddle," Shubin, who will be hosting a three-part PBS series based on his book Your Inner Fish, in April, said. "But it's possible it could walk with them as well. African lungfish living today have similarly large pelves, and we showed in 2011 that they walk underwater on the bottom. Regardless of the gait Tiktaalik used, it's clear that the emphasis on hind appendages and pelvic-propelled locomotion is a trend that began in fish."
an ancient lobe finned fish..... that's all it is! But I guess we can suppose what whatever we want in our minds! Just imagine!Andre
December 8, 2014
December
12
Dec
8
08
2014
09:59 PM
9
09
59
PM
PDT
rvb8:
Wow! Haven’t posted here since 2005 when I was banned for calling Denyse a ‘talentless hack’; sorry.
Welcome to the future. You sure have a lot of catching up to do.Gary S. Gaulin
December 8, 2014
December
12
Dec
8
08
2014
08:44 PM
8
08
44
PM
PDT
I hope you don't really keep dogs tethered in the snow.Graham2
December 8, 2014
December
12
Dec
8
08
2014
08:39 PM
8
08
39
PM
PDT
Wow! Haven't posted here since 2005 when I was banned for calling Denyse a 'talentless hack'; sorry. The thread appears to be calling for ID to make a/any scientifically valid claims/predictions. Are there any? I know you will point to the obvious (why are atheists so blind?) design in life, as if I can't detect beauty? WJM gives nothing but blather as usual and BA77 has the usual endless speel about whatever has got his motor revving. Try this one: Biologist;we know fish became tetrapods around 300-360 million years ago. Biologist to geologist; we need sedimentary rocks about 300-360 million years old to find transitional fossils, where should we look? Geologist to biologist; go north young man, to the arctic isles of Canada. Tiktalik discovered! Theory, prediction, confirmation. What does ID do again?rvb8
December 8, 2014
December
12
Dec
8
08
2014
07:41 PM
7
07
41
PM
PDT
eigenstate,
I just noticed this afernoon that the dogs tethered to a stake in my yard made a nicely patterned circle on my snow-covered lawn. On seeing it, WJM’s image sprang to mind, and a recognized the similarity. Now, I had no “designs” on creating circle pattersn in the yard with two dogs, a stake and two tethers, but it did produce the kind of circle I’d hope for if my design *was* to create a circle in the snow in my yard.
William's pattern is much more than a mere circle trampled into snow by footprints. But the exact pattern isn't the point of contention -- it's your claim that we're "hosed" unless we identify a present and capable designer:
if you can’t identify a present (at the time) and capable designer to match against artifacts and other forensic evidence, you’re hosed. Without that, you are simply falling into circular reasoning: something that is capable of making this thing, made this thing.
Even if William's pattern wouldn't persuade you, I'd wager that there is some pattern or artifact that would, and that you'd therefore have to agree with what I wrote:
1. We can infer design even if we haven’t identified a capable designer known to be present at the right time and place. To put it a bit differently, the pattern itself is evidence for the presence of a capable designer, given that we have no inkling of how the pattern could be produced by unintelligent natural processes or what such an explanation would even look like.
keith s
December 8, 2014
December
12
Dec
8
08
2014
07:24 PM
7
07
24
PM
PDT
@keiths,
In the case of the pattern etched in stone, I would say instead: 1. We can infer design even if we haven’t identified a capable designer known to be present at the right time and place To put it a bit differently, the pattern itself is evidence for the presence of a capable designer, given that we have no inkling of how the pattern could be produced by unintelligent natural processes or what such an explanation would even look like. .
That'd be a different heuristic, though, a break from considering models. I'm not sure if you are incorporating our knowledge of crop-circles-on-Earth-as-pranks-by-humans here, but if not, I'm surprised the image WJM provide strike you as "obviously designed". I can certainly see that as one of my options, and, on balance, the conclusion I'd affirm, if pressed for one or the other. But it's not something that I *recognize* (crop-circles here notwithstanding). But it doesn't matter. As soon as you are reduced to "the pattern itself is evidence", on its own grounds, and not part of any model that matches artisan and artifact, it's pointless to bicker over the strength of your "recognition" vs. mine. We're both so cantilevered out into ignorant space that it is a moot point. Which is really to say, when you've resorted to this kind of reasoning, the real risk is using it to avoid the informed response, which is a caution agnosticism.
2. The reasoning doesn’t seem circular to me. Whether we are IDers or not, we see the pattern and immediately recognize that it requires a causal explanation. The only question is whether the cause is intelligent or unintelligent. Either way, we infer that the cause must have been capable of producing the pattern.
I just noticed this afernoon that the dogs tethered to a stake in my yard made a nicely patterned circle on my snow-covered lawn. On seeing it, WJM's image sprang to mind, and a recognized the similarity. Now, I had no "designs" on creating circle pattersn in the yard with two dogs, a stake and two tethers, but it did produce the kind of circle I'd hope for if my design *was* to create a circle in the snow in my yard. The dogs' circle took a little longer than I might have, but there the circle is. Was that designed? Don't know, and don't think that matters here, except to point out how little we know about the phase space and the selectors in a situation like this. If one has to make a design inference without any support for a designer, I think demurring is a much more reasonable option.
3. In this scenario I would regard design as being established in a scientific sense, not merely a “rhetorical” one. Like any scientific conclusion, it would be provisional.
Sure, but it's so weakly grounded that it hardly matters if you call it scientific or not. It's not much of anything in terms of epistemic weight. If there is a meta-scientific counter here, it's that in my experience, the "scientific mindset" as a disposition prefers agnosticism over, uh, highly speculative provisional inferences. I am failing to recall the right keywords from a Feynman quote that's apropos here, but dispositionally, scientists permit themselves wild conjectures, as conjectures (imagination drive science), but when it comes to conclusions and judgments about how things are, they are quite conservative indeed, and comfortable with "we don't know".
4. The design inference is valuable in this scenario because it would shape the future direction of the investigation. Knowing that there is a designer is quite helpful.
Indeed. But you've not got to "knowing", here. Not nearly. I understand that you may be holding out the prospect of knowing later, as a result of suspecting now.eigenstate
December 8, 2014
December
12
Dec
8
08
2014
06:25 PM
6
06
25
PM
PDT
Axel @ 115
Still no reply from pachyaena to your question at #51, bornagain77…. Didn’t you know that mathematical proofs are woo-woo, BA77, and it’s now up to #114? They must be woo-woo… cos… cos of quantum mechanics ‘n’ stuff. Yes, that’s it! Quantum mechanics is woo- woo, to begin with! So maffs must be …
Axel BA77 is a great fan of QM- just go through his quotes.Me_Think
December 8, 2014
December
12
Dec
8
08
2014
06:16 PM
6
06
16
PM
PDT
eigenstate #90
Here’s a test.
Nou, ik vind dat een slechte test, want....
If we were to agree on “aliens did this”, and my further conjecture was “aliens that arose through natural processes elsewhere did this”, would the IDers nod along because/insofar as I was “making a design inference”?
ten eerste, of aliens het gedaan hebben is een niet-falsifierbare claim, laat staan aliens die voortgekomen uit natuurlijke processen. We moeten met een tijdmachine terug naar het verleden gaan om het empirisch te kunnen vaststellen of het wel/niet waar is. ten tweede, the ID-movement houdt zich NIET bezig met de identificatie van de ontwerper, het probeert alleen maar aan te tonen dat er intelligentie aan te pas moest komen om iets voort te brengen. Het houdt zich bezig met de identificatie van ontwerpen die we zien in de natuur, waarvan de kans onvoorstelbaar klein is dat ze door natuurlijke processen kunnen worden voortgebracht, door middel van aan te tonen dat de kans onvoorstelbaar klein of zelfs onmogelijk is dat ze door natuurlijke processen kunnen worden voortgebracht. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00vBqYDBW5s kijk bijvoorbeeld bovenstaande video met uitgebreide uitleg over DNA en celstructuur
That would imply that natural processes were ultimately responsible, and the aliens, like us, are just the sentient and creative products of an impersonal set of processes.
Deze uitspraak zit vol met (filosofische) aannames. Je beperkt je slechts tot 1 zienswijze, terwijl er ook andere (mogelijk) zijn. Ik vind dat nogal kortzichtig.
If is satisfied ending with naturalistic conclusions at the top level, then I have been mistaken about the nature of the movement.
Daar staan ze wel voor open, ja, want ze zijn niet kortzichtig of closeminded zoals de meeste atheisten dat wel zijn. Dus, je zat inderdaad fout. Ik moedig je aan om vaker op deze site terug te komen, want dan zul je het 1 en ander beter gaan begrijpen.0812681
December 8, 2014
December
12
Dec
8
08
2014
05:26 PM
5
05
26
PM
PDT
Reciprocating Bill:
...there are approximately five million trillion trillion bacteria on earth, each an instance of FSCO/I (you claim). As we don’t know the origins of life, the origins of these instances cannot be assigned either to design or to natural events unless one assumes a conclusion regarding the very question at issue.
So you reject evolution (natural events) as an explanation because we don't know the origin of life? That's probably a first here at UD. Your argument reduces to this: there is far more that we don't know than what we do know, therefore we cannot know anything. Good luck with that one.
Suddenly your numbers don’t seem as impressive, or dispositive, and generalizing from an almost infinitely tiny and unrepresentative sample (e.g., instances of human agency) obviously unjustified. It’s a reliable signal of design only if you assume it to be a reliable signal of design.
What a novel argument. There's more noise than signal, therefore the signal is unreliable.Mung
December 8, 2014
December
12
Dec
8
08
2014
04:40 PM
4
04
40
PM
PDT
WJM #99
I think one answer is.. ...that they despise/are afraid of the implications that would be contained if they allowed the reasoning to continue to conclusion.
IMO, they despise/fear the prospect of an upswing in religious belief.
So, ID must be stopped. I think a lot of them actually believe that stopping ID is in the best interests of civilization. IOW, they are protecting their religious foothold (Darwinism/materialism) and see ID as a potential threat to their cultural agenda...
I think you are right. The article posted underneath may explain why people are Anti-ID.
Is there Christianophobia in the United States? One sociology professor says yes. Dr. George Yancey writes about Christianophobia in his new book, "So Many Christians, So Few Lions." He discussed the book on American Family Radio program "Today's Issues," explaining that he and a co-author used the concept of "Islamophobia" and applied it to Christianity. "Is there an unreasonable hatred or fear of Christians? Our conclusion is that, yes, we do have Christianophobia in the United States," said Yancey, who teaches at the University of North Texas and holds a doctorate in philosophy. People who tend to have "Christianophobia" seem to be better educated, wealthier, white and male, Yancey explained, citing the study...... ...Yancey points to his own research as showing that, among academics, about 40 to 45 percent of them are less willing to hire someone if they found out they are conservative Protestant. http://onenewsnow.com/culture/2014/12/02/guess-who-has-worst-case-of-christianophobia-in-us#.VIYrf-Zdo84
Hmmm, this makes me wonder wich percentage of the Anti-ID'ists would fit to this description of better educated, wealthier, white and male0812681
December 8, 2014
December
12
Dec
8
08
2014
04:28 PM
4
04
28
PM
PDT
Axel:
Still no reply from pachyaena to your question at #51, bornagain77….
Axel, Don't forget -- this is UD. Pachyaena has been silently banned.keith s
December 8, 2014
December
12
Dec
8
08
2014
04:11 PM
4
04
11
PM
PDT
KF:
First, we have a base of trillions of cases on the origin of FSCO/I (which would be required), and every time we directly know the cause it is intelligently directed configuration — aka design.
You dazzle yourself with numbers of individual instances of human actions and communications, each of which traces back to human agency and intelligence (what a surprise). Problem is, your “trillions” of instances are massively dwarfed by instances of biological phenomena, claimed to be analogous, the origins of which we do not yet understand. For example, there are approximately five million trillion trillion bacteria on earth, each an instance of FSCO/I (you claim). As we don’t know the origins of life, the origins of these instances cannot be assigned either to design or to natural events unless one assumes a conclusion regarding the very question at issue. If we assume that by “trillions” you mean “100 trillion”, the instances of FIASCO the origins of which are known is on the order of a 1/50 thousand trillionth, or 1/50 quadrillionth, of the total instances of which we are aware, the remainder of unknown origins. And that's just counting bacteria. Suddenly your numbers don’t seem as impressive, or dispositive, and generalizing from an almost infinitely tiny and unrepresentative sample (e.g., instances of human agency) obviously unjustified. It's a reliable signal of design only if you assume it to be a reliable signal of design.Reciprocating Bill
December 8, 2014
December
12
Dec
8
08
2014
04:06 PM
4
04
06
PM
PDT
SA": I'll make it simpler ... 'purpose'. Could you explain how we observe this ?Graham2
December 8, 2014
December
12
Dec
8
08
2014
03:48 PM
3
03
48
PM
PDT
Still no reply from pachyaena to your question at #51, bornagain77.... Didn't you know that mathematical proofs are woo-woo, BA77, and it's now up to #114? They must be woo-woo... cos... cos of quantum mechanics 'n' stuff. Yes, that's it! Quantum mechanics is woo- woo, to begin with! So maffs must be ... What tickles me pink is that mankind would still be waiting for scientists to discover QM (upon which an estimated 70% of industrial production is estimated to be based) , if it had had to rely on the materialist cultist devotees. As if that were not surreal enough, neither Planck, the proto-pioneer of QM, nor any of the other great QM pioneers, ever gave the notion of materiaism the time of day. How could they have. Right up to today, QM is a horrific bug-bear for them, for the same reason that Intelligent Design is: Richard Lewontin! Paging Richard Lewontin!Axel
December 8, 2014
December
12
Dec
8
08
2014
03:43 PM
3
03
43
PM
PDT
Graham - I kept "purpose" in that quote for you. But harmony is quite a lot easier. We've been discussing Fibonacci sequences in nature on another thread, as one example. Also, I think human beings are part of nature, right?Silver Asiatic
December 8, 2014
December
12
Dec
8
08
2014
02:09 PM
2
02
09
PM
PDT
SA: I deliberately excluded 'design' (its done to death), it was the 'harmony', 'purpose' I was asking about.Graham2
December 8, 2014
December
12
Dec
8
08
2014
01:59 PM
1
01
59
PM
PDT
Graham2
groovamos: harmony, purpose … in nature such as ?
“Biology is the study of complicated things that give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose”.Silver Asiatic
December 8, 2014
December
12
Dec
8
08
2014
01:54 PM
1
01
54
PM
PDT
Thanks, Groovamos :-) @ 107 -- I enjoyed your also ...
as a child at that period of existence, experienced magnificent wonder at the harmony, purpose and obvious design in nature. Our culture has employed for decades various built-in mechanisms to dull the mind’s natural perception of this and erase the profound childhood appreciation for the brilliance of nature.
True words -- the child's insight is fresh and unbiased, and yes "profound" indeed. It takes a lot of miseducation to destroy that but our culture has been doing quite a good job of destroying the human spirit.Silver Asiatic
December 8, 2014
December
12
Dec
8
08
2014
01:27 PM
1
01
27
PM
PDT
groovamos: harmony, purpose ... in nature such as ?Graham2
December 8, 2014
December
12
Dec
8
08
2014
12:32 PM
12
12
32
PM
PDT
Your #107: Spot on, groovamos. Their folly is truly nothing less than surreal. Realistically, it would be utterly incomprehensible in a person with an IQ of 70. All for the want of a rational, scientifically -confirmed, ontological hypothesis.Axel
December 8, 2014
December
12
Dec
8
08
2014
12:14 PM
12
12
14
PM
PDT
WJM: I think that on first look, we have no right to impute agitator tactics. But where there is a track record, often several months or even years long, that is a different story if the record objectively warrants the conclusion . . . painful though it is to draw it. When it comes to those who simply are taken in and come here to echo that which they picked up or -- sadly -- what was drummed into their head under false colours of education (the a priori materialist ideological stances and linked rhetoric of the US NAS and NSTA [as already remarked on, cf. e.g. here] are . . . pardon a directly put, fair comment . . . inexcusable), one hopes there is enough there between the ears to wake up and spot what is going on. I more and more am inclined to think we need to all take a sobering pause and ponder Plato's parable of the cave -- watch the neat vid I found at Youtube . . . I remember sitting in the local public library a few weeks back and playing it for a young miss, her eyes practically popped out in shock and recognition, you could see the light bulbs going off above her head in the terms of the old cartoons. After that, maybe this 101 on first steps in critical thinking might be a first 15 minute step. Then, if you want to see where I have come out after many serious years of thought, why, at an a- bit- more- along 101 level [102 level?], try here on. Sorry, that starts with first principles of right reason, and self evident first truths, that one needs to blow out the cobwebs between the ears and brush them out of all the nooks and crannies of our thinking. I should not leave off this on handling media etc spin. KFkairosfocus
December 8, 2014
December
12
Dec
8
08
2014
07:35 AM
7
07
35
AM
PDT
Congregate @ 11 : There is no scientific theory of intelligent design as of yet. It is an intuition. Some things look, to some people, as though they were designed. Some things look designed to everyone: 747s, etc. The contributor 'forgot' (hee hee) to mention that almost everyone, as a child at that period of existence, experienced magnificent wonder at the harmony, purpose and obvious design in nature. Our culture has employed for decades various built-in mechanisms to dull the mind's natural perception of this and erase the profound childhood appreciation for the brilliance of nature. One of them is called the educational system, which is largely committed to the scientific materialist cult. Another is the unsaid standard of the mass media and educational materials which almost never just state a feature of an organism as existing. It is always said to have evolved and the implied subtext of course is 'by the Darwinist process' with the cult figurehead always at the ready but possibly not explicitly invoked. And I might add, the just-so stories often in accompaniment seem to always include phrases such as "just might be" "could have", "are likely", etc. etc. I mean what a science!! Except that it is not science, it is indoctrination, it is a complete world view. And so by the age of 10~12, children in our culture have hopefully (to our opponents' way of thinking) been prepared for a lifetime of dulled perception and crippled intuition, and willing receptacles for philosophical materialism. Silver Asiatic @106 terrific post, Thx!groovamos
December 8, 2014
December
12
Dec
8
08
2014
07:22 AM
7
07
22
AM
PDT
Reflecting on this excellent OP and this comment as a reason for interest in ID:
those who made anti-ID arguments were making such laughably bad arguments, and ID proponents made some very reasonable arguments that were met with an openly dismissive hostility that intrigued me
I fully agree. That's what drew me into becoming an ID supporter. Stress on the word "laughably". I have never laughed so hard in a debate setting as I do here. I find it wonderful. WJM asks also:
The question I’m slow-boiling here is: why do they resort to such frantic, easily-rebutted, nonsensical protestations against what is clearly a reasonable line of inference? Why do they insist on throwing up a roadblock, any roadblock, no matter how petty or unreasonable, against ID?
Good question. I'd normally be sincerely concerned for people who were so confused. But the egotism that is so obvious among the anti-ID opponents is so galling and profound that we have to laugh at this nonsense. I'll admit also, the fact that our opponents are so relentless and blind to their own contradictions -- completely unwilling to give up one inch to the ID position, and in fact, coming up with more hilariously absurd objections to ID -- is the main reason I've stayed with this topic for about 10 years now. I would have been bored long ago otherwise. I've debated a lot of topics in my life, sports, religion, politics, culture -- and usually I'll find some reconciliation between the most opposed views over time. But here it's an endless chase - or better - an obstacle course with roadblock after roadblock to get around. Admittedly, most of it is childish distractions, hide-and-seek games, rides on the merry-go-round, and the answer to your question "why" -- I think many of us conclude that there's a personal agenda at stake. There's something within the ID-opponent that is fiercely driving the obtuseness and blatant denials and the lock-tight conviction that Darwinism (or any brand of materialist conjecture) is true. Some people have, unfortunately, been damaged or scared by religion and have a hatred of the thought of a designer. Others have different reasons to be hostile to the idea. We see it quite often - the incredibly emotional questions about "why would the designer ... [do whatever]?" Followed by mockery. Just the idea that there could be something more than material nature is enough to create hostile ridicule in some. That can't be driven by calm, objectivity. There's something psychological (or spiritual) at work. I guess there's a kind of loyalty to the team also. A person makes a commitment to atheism, for example, and wants to be seen as a true believer, so giving up any ground to the enemy is forbidden. In short, I don't know the answer as to why they do it. But it's as obvious to me that they do it. Our opponents are their own worst enemies as I see it. They certainly moved me to support ID.Silver Asiatic
December 8, 2014
December
12
Dec
8
08
2014
06:42 AM
6
06
42
AM
PDT
1 … 4 5 6 7 8 … 10