Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

The “Me No Speaka The English Distraction”

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In my Not Merely False post I made the following statement.

It is not possible even in principle to account for mental facts . . . on the basis of physical facts.

For anyone who has read Thomas Nagel’s Mind and Cosmos, this phraseology should be familiar, because the idea for the post came from that book. Yes, I am basing an assertion on the writings of a materialist author (albeit one who is uncommonly honest about the shortcomings of materialism).

In response Graham2 wrote:

If you people insist on such vague, slippery terms such as a ‘mental fact’ then these discussions are pretty pointless. What on earth is a ‘mental fact’ ?

By “you people” I suppose Graham2 is referring to ID proponents, which is ironic indeed given the provenance of the phrase. Here Graham2 is employing a common materialist tactic. When they have no argument, they resort to what I call the “me no speaka the English distraction.” We have seen this so many times I am going to put a formulation of it in the Weak Argument Corrective section of the site. As we sometimes do here at UD, I am going to open this up for contributions by our readers. I will select the best formulation and post it in the WAC. Thanks in advance to the UD community for their assistance.

The formulation should take this form: The me no speaka the English distraction (“MNSTED”) is . . . . The MNSTED is an illegitimate response to an argument because . . .

I will leave you with a funny video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJX1REQB12o

Comments
Barry @ 16, thanks. However, what I wrote may need a bit of rework if we include in the requirements that the person claiming to not understand a term has himself recently used that term as if it was comprehensible to anyone else reading his post. RDFish immediately comes to mind. Perhaps that is a sub-category of MNSTED. I just saw that word being used in a sentence somewhere and thought it was cool and wanted to use it myself. I didn't really know what it meant. I am not responsible for knowing what the words that I use actually mean. I don't really know what it means, I only use it because I think you know what it means. At some level we have to be able to communicate, even if we don't know what the words mean. We need to be clear about definitions, that's why I refuse to define my terms. Everyone knows what that word means, but maybe you are using it differently, so you need to say what you mean by it. and on and on it goes ...Mung
September 12, 2014
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Another recent example: A_b: “Since humans are not inherently superior to other organisms there is little point to this subject.” M: “I suppose next you’ll assert that it is a scientific fact, as sure as the fact of evolution, that humans are not inherently superior to other organisms.” A_b: “That depends on how you define superior.” here A_b: "And I always thought that a clear definition of terms was important for any discussion if you hope it to have relevance. But I guess that clear and agreed to definitions are not important to creationists like yourself." the irony. By some strange coincidence Daniel King felt the need to interject his insightful comment right after I called out A_b on his unsupported assertion. like peas in a pod?Mung
September 12, 2014
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For my idea of the MNSTEd I think it would be well described as a clarity diffusion tactic. It sure would be helpful if there was a dictionary for these terms but it still seems that you can interpret it however you want it. I'd name it the Clinton tactic. For the defense he used "it depends on what your definition of is, is." It's a debating style forcing technical clarity in order to find a technical out. So you could either make your own list of defined terms or make commenters list their own definition if they are questioning a term.MrCollins
September 12, 2014
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Charles@12, Exactly! Brilliant! The resemblence of the Monty Python video to some of the attempts at argument here is both uncanny and profound! Love it!!!! :-) -QQuerius
September 12, 2014
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Daniel, If YOU were honest, you wouldn't feel the need to ignore comments that call into account your errors in reasoning.Joe
September 12, 2014
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The MNSTED is an illegitimate response to an argument because it is the verbal equivalent of drooling and wetting yourself.Joe
September 12, 2014
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A bit of a digression, admittedly, but have any of you ever read Hunter S Thompson? A wild but brilliant man, who seems to have been an autodidact, but, by temperament, with more interest in life, and the wilder side of it, at that, than any matters academic. Your reference to Zen, redwave, reminded me of the rather brutal revenge he took on a Zen teacher in front of his class, who gratuitously sought to humiliate him. He entered the class-room and asked the teacher if he knew the kind of prices the local houses went for. Something along those lines. The teacher sneered to the giggling class that they would obviously be out of his range. Thompson asked if he knew the sound of silence. Something of a Zen cliche, I believe. On receiving a negative reply, Thompson cupped one hand and clapped it hard against one of his Nib's ears, compressing the air in the eustachian tubes, thereby puncturing his eardrum! The sort of ready vengeance you might see in a Spaghetti western.Axel
September 12, 2014
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HeKS #3 Even funnier, HeKS!Axel
September 12, 2014
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Barry Arrington @ 13:
and sadly reminiscent of some of the outrageous claims our opponents have made on these pages.
Yes. And when confronted with their irreconcilable self-conflicted quotes, and their bluffs and evasions lay eviscerated in bloody stumps, they resort to ad-hominems and declare victory - cum laude graduates of the Black Knight school of debate.Charles
September 12, 2014
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By the way, Barry, I'm archiving my comments before you delete them! Have a blessed evening. Barry Arrington responds: DK, you write that as if I should care that you are preserving your adolescent blitherings for posterity. Here's a clue: I don't. You and A_b are obviously trying to goad me into banning you, so you can run and tell all your friends, "look Barry is poopyhead." I won't. I will just keep deleting your off topic rantings. So go ahead. Waste as much of your time writing them as you like. Daniel King
September 12, 2014
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The MNSTED is an illegitimate response to an argument because . . .the argument is OBVIOUS!Daniel King
September 12, 2014
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The MNSTED is an illegitimate response to an argument because . . . it is not Mu! Background: The Zen Koan Mu ... What is mu? Joshu (A.D. 778-897) was a famous Chinese Zen Master who lived in Joshu, the province from which he took his name. One day a troubled monk approached him, intending to ask the Master for guidance. A dog walked by. The monk asked Joshu, "Has that dog a Buddha-nature or not?" The monk had barely completed his question when Joshu shouted: "MU!" Mu. "Not one of the 1700 koans of Zen has any other purpose make us see our Original Face." Master Daito Kokushi (1280 - 1348)redwave
September 12, 2014
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Mung @ 14. Nice. From the post Mung links in 14 is UB’s classic slap-down of an ideologue employing the MNSTED tactic. As is usually the case with UB, it is an elegant and powerful at the same time:
Here's the deal Onlooker. I have no desire to play definition derby with an ideologue. This argument has already been in front of specialists in relevant fields and not a single one of them asked me what I meant by anything I said. When I say that, I am not saying that I didn’t have to re-explain much, or not very much – I am saying I didn’t have to change a single word in order to be understood. So when an ideologue rolls up and overplays his position by taking every opportunity to position the argument as incomprehensible, I rightly call bullshit on it. That’s a classic defensive maneuver which is intentionally irresolvable for the purposes of generating rhetoric. It’s the intellectual carcass from defending a weak position
Barry Arrington
September 12, 2014
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What about the fact that mental facts can account for physical facts? One of the best attested phenomena in medicine is the "placebo effect." People start to get better from many illnesses when they believe they have received a treatment that works. Which is why all drugs today SHOULD be tested against placebo. Where I live, some patients will start to get better when they hear that Dr. Schultz, visiting professor from the University of Heidelberg in Germany, has been able to make time from his busy lecturing and teaching schedule, to see them. Do the diseased cells know this? Do they understand its significance? No, but the patient does. All I know for sure is, whatever Dr. Schulz prescribes will probably work better if HE prescribed it than if it was just doled out as part of some routine procedure. Minds are like that.News
September 12, 2014
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The me no speaka the English distraction (“MNSTED”) is the assertion that because I can say that I don't understand you it must mean that no one else can understand you either and therefore I can pretend that your argument has no force for as long as you're willing to put up with me. For a display of MNSTED in all it's glory visit this classic thread (with particular attention to 'onlooker'): UB Sets It Out Step-By-Step The MNSTED is an illegitimate response to an argument because the ability to obfuscate should not be confused with the ability to comprehend. In fact, obfuscation is evidence that the person who claims to not understand in fact understands all too well and just can't stand to follow the argument where it leads. It's intellectual dishonesty.Mung
September 12, 2014
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A classic Charles, and sadly reminiscent of some of the outrageous claims our opponents have made on these pages. "'tis but a scratch." "A scratch! You're arm's off." "No it isn't." [points to arm on ground] "Well, what's that then?" "I've had worse." "You lie!" Mark Frank: "It is no part of the job of an "ethicist" to make judgments about ethical matters." Why to they call them ethicists then Mark? "Because he 'splains ethics and stuff without making ethical judgments. It's a hard job." Barry Arrington
September 12, 2014
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Barry Arrington:
I will leave you with a funny video:
I'll see your funny video and raise you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ikssfUhAlgg#t=74Charles
September 12, 2014
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"MNSTED" (see "Elizabeth Liddle"): Verbal chaff confusion countermeasures. When the materialist combat fighter realizes she is outgunned, out maneuvered, and all her English-seeking definitions have been retargeted and locked-on to her own materialist argument, in a last-ditch evasive effort the materialist deploys MNSTED; scattering English-confusion chaff into her posts so as to deflect her own previously fired English-seeking definitions from climbing up her six.Charles
September 12, 2014
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Jim @1: This reminds me of the Chinese proverb:
When a wise man points at the moon, a fool looks at the finger.
Phinehas
September 12, 2014
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"If you people insist on such vague, slippery terms..." The irony, the shame haha.humbled
September 12, 2014
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Indeed Charles, Liddle routinely practices argument by MNSTED.Barry Arrington
September 12, 2014
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"MNSTED": (See "Elizabeth Liddle")Charles
September 12, 2014
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I also like post#1 ... lol the tilted dog head fallacy but of course dogs aren't trying to mislead you.. they legitimately don't get it...so, that wouldn't be an exact comparison...but i get it! i.e. the focus is on the thing providing the thing you should actually be focused on.JGuy
September 12, 2014
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linguistic herring :PJGuy
September 12, 2014
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The MNSTED is an illegitimate response to an argument because . . . such a response invariably demonstrates understanding of all aspects of the argument except that which the respondent doesn't like. For example, Argument:
The taking of innocent human life as one of life's "finer conveniences" is wrong because human life is sacred.
MNSTED response:
It is hard for us to understand who is innocent, what is alive, the boundaries of convenience, or if any"thing" can be sacred.
But in other contexts, the very same MNSTED'er has wholly acceptable and somewhat straightforward definitons of all these ideas. From this we can see that the MNSTED'er understands, but avoids. Put another way, avoidance is not an argument.Tim
September 12, 2014
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@Jim Smith That's pretty great :) It makes me think of a different but kind of related scenario... It's like pointing to someone across the street that they're about to be hit by a bus but instead of moving they take it as an opportunity to make a rhetorical jab that three of your fingers are pointing back at you.HeKS
September 12, 2014
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DK and A_B, this post has a specific purpose. We are not interested in your sadly all-too-predictable attempts to defend the indefensible.Barry Arrington
September 12, 2014
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It is like a dog looking at your hand instead of where you are pointing. (I think this was said by Dean Radin)Jim Smith
September 12, 2014
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