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Silly arguments against God, by very clever writers

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I have just been watching a video compilation by Dr Jonathan T. Pararajasingham, a British neurosurgeon, entitled, 30 Renowned Writers Speaking about God, posted by Professor Jerry Coyne over at Why Evolution is True. The video features a pretty impressive array of writers – including Arthur C. Clarke, Nadine Gordimer, Isaac Asimov, Arthur Miller, Gore Vidal, Douglas Adams, Germaine Greer, Martin Amis, Philip Roth, Margaret Atwood, Salman Rushdie, Harold Pinter and (of course) the recently deceased Christopher Hitchens – who are either atheists or agnostics. These are people who craft words for a living and who know how to argue a case, so I was expecting to hear at least one really good argument for atheism. Suffice it to say that I was underwhelmed by the arguments that were presented. More on that below.

“No religion is true” does not imply that the idea of God is false

I was most amused to hear several speakers arguing that because all religions are false, the idea of God must also be false. This is a total non sequitur. What’s more, it completely ignores ardent Deists such as Thomas Jefferson and Tom Paine, who poured scorn on the tenets of organized religion, but argued for the rationality of belief in God, from the laws of Nature (see here and here). For all his hatred of Christianity, Tom Paine (who is, strange to say, a hero of the late Christopher Hitchens, Jerry Coyne and many other New Atheists) was a man passionately in love with God. Want proof? Here’s what he says about God in The Age of Reason:

The Almighty Lecturer, by displaying the principles of science in the structure of the universe, has invited man to study and to imitation. It is as if He had said to the inhabitants of this globe, that we call ours, “I have made an earth for man to dwell upon, and I have rendered the starry heavens visible, to teach him science and the arts. He can now provide for his own comfort, AND LEARN FROM MY MUNIFICENCE TO ALL, TO BE KIND TO EACH OTHER.”…

Do we want to contemplate his power? We see it in the immensity of the Creation. Do we want to contemplate his wisdom? We see it in the unchangeable order by which the incomprehensible whole is governed! Do we want to contemplate his munificence? We see it in the abundance with which he fills the earth. Do we want to contemplate his mercy? We see it in his not withholding that abundance even from the unthankful. In fine, do we want to know what God is? Search not the book called the Scripture, which any human hand might make, but the Scripture called the Creation…

I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this life.

Dr. O’Hanlon’s misunderstanding of religion

But the prize for the most wrong-headed assertion will have to go to Dr. Redmond O’Hanlon FRSL, a highly acclaimed British writer and scholar. Towards the end of the video [21:06-21:54], O’Hanlon (whose picture appears on the left at the top of this post, courtesy of Wikipedia and Daan Berg) is asked, “Would you say, in a way, that what the Bible was for your father, Darwin’s Origin of Species was for you?” He responds:

Yes, except that it was absolutely based on generations of quiet science, quiet people really thinking. There was no bullshit involved at all, no wishful thinking, no absurd myth-making, no ridiculous covering up of deep fear. All of the Bible, all religions, are composed of cowardice pretending to be reality – abject cowardice. We don’t like to think that we are undoubtedly going to die. That’s what all religion is based on – fear of death.

People reading this post will be more inclined to think that Darwinism owed its triumph to a combination of poor cell biology and bad philosophy. Darwin was a very fair-minded scientist, but he knew nothing about the chemical structure of DNA, RNA and proteins. To make matters worse, information theory hadn’t been invented in his day. These two limitations led him to mistakenly claim that “Everything in nature is the result of fixed laws,” which (for Darwin) seemed to refute the notion that Nature has an Intelligent Designer. Many theists, of course, would argue that laws of any sort imply an Intelligence; however, the great contribution of Intelligent Design theory is the observation that specified complexity is the hallmark trait of intelligent agency.

The real essence of religion

When I heard Dr. O’Hanlon say that all religion is based on fear of death, my instant reaction was: “You are completely wrong.” And then I suddenly recalled that a great writer had refuted Dr. O’Hanlon’s claim much more effectively than I could ever have done, more than sixty years ago. I remembered a passage that I had read in an essay by C. S. Lewis entitled, Religion Without Dogma? which was originally read to the Oxford Socratic Club on the 20th May 1946, and later published in the Phoenix Quarterly, vol. I, No. 1 (Autumn 1946) under the title ‘A Christian Reply to Professor Price’. (Professor H. H. Price had earlier written a paper entitled, ‘The Grounds of Modern Agnosticism’, which he read to the Socratic Club on the 23rd October 1944.) In his essay, C. S. Lewis skilfully demolished Price’s claim that belief in immortality belongs to the very essence of religion. Lewis’s essay is also a splendid refutation of O’Hanlon’s claim that all religion is based on fear of death

My disagreement with Professor Price begins, I am afraid, at the threshold. I do not define the essence of religion as belief in God and immortality. Judaism in its earlier stages had no belief in immortality, and for a long time no belief which was religiously relevant. The shadowy existence of the ghost in Sheol was one of which Jehovah took no account and which took no account of Jehovah. In Sheol all things are forgotten. The religion was centered on the ritual and ethical demands of Jehovah in the present life, and also, of course, on benefits expected from Him. These benefits are often merely worldly benefits (grandchildren and peace upon Israel), but a more specifically religious note is repeatedly struck. The Jew is athirst for the living God (Psalm 42:2), he delights in His Laws as in honey or treasure (Psalm 19:10), he is conscious of himself in Jehovah’s presence as unclean of lips and heart (Isaiah 6:5). The glory or splendour of God is worshipped for its own sake. In Buddhism, on the other hand, we find that a doctrine of immortality is central, while there is nothing specifically religious. Salvation from immortality, deliverance from reincarnation, is the very core of its message. The existence of the gods is not necessarily decried, but it is of no religious significance. In Stoicism again both the religious quality and the belief in immortality are variables, but they do not vary in direct ratio. Even within Christianity itself we find a striking expression, not without influence from Stoicism, of the subordinate position of immortality. When Henry More ends a poem on the spiritual life by saying that it, after all, he should turn out to be mortal he would be

…satisfide
A lonesome mortall God t’ have died.

From my own point of view, the example of Judaism and Buddhism is of immense importance. The system which is meaningless without a doctrine of immortality, regards immortality as a nightmare, not as a prize. The religion which, of all ancient religions, is most specifically religious, that is, at once most ethical and most numinous, is hardly interested in the question. Believing, as I do, that Jehovah is a real being, indeed the ens realissimum, I cannot sufficiently admire the divine tact of thus training the chosen race for centuries in religion before even hinting the shining secret of eternal life. He behaves like the rich lover in a romance who woos the maiden on his own merits, disguised as a poor man, and only when he has won her reveals that he has a throne and palace to offer. For I cannot help thinking that any religion which begins with a thirst for immortality is damned, as a religion, from the outset. Until a certain spiritual level has been reached, the promise of immortality will always operate as a bribe which vitiates the whole religion and infinitely inflames those very self-regards which religion must cut down and uproot. for the essence of religion, in my view, is the thirst for an end higher than natural ends; the finite self’s desire for, and acquiescence in, and self-rejection in favour of, an object wholly good and wholly good for it. That the self-rejection will turn out to be also a self-finding, that bread cast upon the waters will be found after many days, that to die is to live — these are sacred paradoxes of which the human race must not be told too soon.

(The quote from More is from his poem, ‘Resolution’, in The Complete Poems of Dr Henry More, ed. Alexander B. Grosart, Edinburgh, 1878, line 117, p. 176.)

At this point, I’d like to add my own perspective, which echoes what C. S. Lewis wrote. Many people criticize religion for being too other-worldly, and of causing people to be unhealthily preoccupied with eternity, at the expense of the things that really matter in this world. The charge is not wholly groundless; there are some forms of religious belief which do just that. But for me, the great thing about religion – in the truest sense of the word – is that it takes you out of yourself, by opening your eyes to the fact that the ultimate Reality is Someone Who is much greater than you can possibly imagine. It is this awareness of an all-embracing perspective belonging to Someone outside of yourself that enables you to step outside of the framework of your own ego, put your worries aside, and just live for the moment, which means living for others. In other words, you stop worrying about death if you choose to live your life from a God’s-eye perspective, let go of your ego, and cease making yourself the center of your personal universe. Thus the benefit of true religion is that it makes people whole, restores their sanity and sets them free. Religion, properly lived, is the only thing that is guaranteed to cure people’s never-ending preoccupation with themselves and their wants. True religion, then, is not personal wish-fulfilment but self-abandonment. Another name for that attitude is trust. Without that trust, the doctrine of personal immortality will avail you naught, spiritually speaking.

Christopher Hitchens’ argument against God: Love cannot be coerced

This, by the way, answers the one argument of substance that I heard on the entire video: an argument by Christopher Hitchens (the last speaker on the video), that it is impossible for us to genuinely love God if we are obligated to love him, under pain of eternal damnation in Hell. While making this argument, Hitchens is not letting go of himself. What he is saying, in effect, is: “Now, let me imagine that there is a God, and let me imagine what that would entail for me. If there is such a Personal Being, then presumably He would want to be loved by me, since I am capable of knowing Him – and He might well feel miffed at the fact that I didn’t love Him. Being omniscient, He would know if I didn’t love Him, of course. Being all-powerful, He might even get nasty and exact vengeance on me – perhaps even eternal vengeance. But if God could really do that, then I couldn’t possibly choose to love Him freely – in which case I couldn’t really love Him at all, in which case it would be wrong of Him to punish me for not loving Him. So since the concept of God implies the possibility of His doing something wrong, which means that He isn’t God (since God is supposed to be essentially benevolent), then there must be something deeply flawed about the whole concept of God.”

Logically speaking, Hitchens’ argument doesn’t work, because it assumes that God’s omniscience, omnibenevolence and omnipotence are equally fundamental attributes of God. But if God’s omnipotence is grounded in His omniscience and omnibenevolence, then God cannot will what is ultimately bad for anyone. Only we can do that – which is why C. S. Lewis insisted in The Problem of Pain that “The doors of Hell are locked on the inside.”

But on a psychological level, Hitchens’ argument is profoundly wrong, too. What is missing from it is the notion of trust. Instead of worrying about what an omnipotent God might do to Him, what Hitchens should have asked himself is: if rational argumentation leads me to believe that there is a Mind Who created the cosmos, keeps it in being, and therefore keeps me in being, what is my response to such a Being? The only sensible response to such a Being is one of trust. Any other response is self-defeating. Trust in turn means letting go, and not letting thought experiments about hypothetical consequences interfere with one’s impulse to love God. Hitchens’ hero, Thomas Paine, was able to let go and love His Maker, as we saw in the quote from him above.

Notive that I wrote: “If rational argumentation leads me to believe that there is a Mind Who created the cosmos…” in the paragraph above. “That’s a pretty big ‘if'”, I hear you say. But I would argue that the combination of recent scientific evidence indicating that not just our universe, but the entire multiverse must have had a beginning (evidence which I discussed in this post), coupled with the arguments from the fine-tuning of the cosmos (scroll down to the end of this post for a list of good posts) and the startling evidence that the first living thing was designed (see this excellent video by Professor John Walton, Fellow of the Royal Society for Chemistry), does make it rational to believe that there is indeed a Mind Who created the cosmos and the first living organism.

Miscellaneous arguments against God by Thirty Leading Writers

Here are some other highlights that I saw on the video, 30 Renowned Writers Speaking about God:

Arthur C. Clarke relating the story of Laplace’s statement to Napoleon that he had no need for the hypothesis of God (a reply which avoids the obvious questions of where the laws of Nature originally came from, why they hold at all, and what they are);

Arthur Miller asserting that God is a projection (a claim I find difficult to square with the Parable of the Last Judgement, which tells us that even “respectable” religious people who claim to be followers of Jesus will be damned in Hell for all eternity if they did not feed the hungry, care for the sick and clothe the naked, during their lives on Earth);

Gore Vidal whinging about the way in which God designed the human spine (fine; let’s see his improved model, and the genetic coding for it);

Douglas Adams misconstruing the fine-tuning argument as being like a puddle of water wondering why it exactly fits the hole in the ground that it’s in (never mind the fact that the puddle would still exist if the hole had a different shape, whereas we would cease to exist if the laws of Nature were even slightly different from what they are now);

Germaine Greer defining good as whatever results in the greater good of the greater number (which entails the truly monstrous ethical conclusion that you are morally obliged to inflict torture, rape and even burning at the stake on an innocent person, if you have good grounds for believing that doing so will result in a greater benefit for society as a whole – see here for a scenario where this could happen);

Jose Saramago arguing that the story of Abraham by itself constitutes a sufficient refutation of belief in God (surely, at most, it only refutes the notion of a capricious and egomaniacal God, but not one Who is essentially good);

Terry Pratchett telling us that he found it harder and harder to believe in people, let alone God (poor guy);

Ian McEwan claiming that religion cuts off a source of wonder at the beauty of the world (funny, that was what happened to me as an 11-year-old, when I read science books galore written by pontificating atheists, asserting that the Sun was a rather ordinary G-type star that was doomed to fizzle out in a few billion years, and that the Universe would one day end in a whimper);

Salman Rushdie asserting that when religion is in charge of the ethical question, you get Inquisitions (try telling that to a Hindu, a Buddhist or a Taoist);

Norman MacCraig telling viewers that the reaon why he was convinced that atheism is true was that he cannot believe Christian dogma (now there’s a logical argument for you!);

Matt Ridley exuberantly exclaiming that we’re going to generate more mystery, the more we discover (I do hope he’s right, but what if the laws of physics turn out to be finite and fairly easily comprehensible, and some scientist discovers a Grand Unified Theory of Everything tomorrow?);

Howard Brenton passionately advocating the separation of Church and State (no argument from me on this point, but what does that prove about God?);

Tariq Ali arguing for putting the Pope on trial (relevance to theism?);

Roddy Doyle humorously lamenting the fact that when he became an atheist, he couldn’t blame God for his misfortunes (ha!);

Diana Athill arguing that dying is no big deal, because it’s just like going to sleep and never waking up (which is not in the least reassuring if you’re still awake); and

Christopher Hitchens arguing with his characteristic passion against the doctrine of Vicarious Atonement (which I find puzzling, as there are many Christians who believe in the doctrine of the Atonement, but don’t construe it in the way described by Hitchens – see these articles by Robin Collins, for instance).

Comments
Champ, Quick question... what exactly is impossible/improbable/not-doable in KF's senerio? Isn't that Ventor guy bio-engioneering things? Didn't somebody grow a human ear out of a rat once? It's not that far a stretch. Sheesh. It's like a person from the 1900s laughing at the idea of humans making something that could fly them around WHILE the Wright brothers are drawing schematics. As it relates to Revelation, unless John was told that 'this means this' the best we can assume is John saw something nigh indescribable and tried to describe it. Hence flying people-insects. It's not the first time someone saw something strange in the spirit and described it with animal parts. Back then it was the only way they could get the point across. *shrug* Whatever dude. I still stand by my statement. Jesus said you'll see it. John saw it. Case closed.Sonfaro
January 26, 2012
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Sonfaro,
Anyway, that’s my story and I’m sticking to it. Jesus said some would see the Kingdom Come, and John saw the Kingdom come. I still don’t see whats so hard about it.
There's nothing hard about drinking the Kool-Aid, but that doesn't make it rational to do so.champignon
January 26, 2012
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Scott, to Sonfaro:
If you believe that John saw actual events and not a vision, does that mean that every beast and man-faced insect will literally appear at some point in the future?
kairosfocus:
SA: just a footnote, think gene engineering biowar weapons. Locust base to get swarms, human or the like input to get smarts, scorpion tail to inject some newfangled viral plague. Then, have something go wrong, and we get a mutated viral strain . . . just to think out of the box. KF
KF, I actually thought you were serious there for a minute!champignon
January 26, 2012
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SA: just a footnote, think gene engineering biowar weapons. Locust base to get swarms, human or the like input to get smarts, scorpion tail to inject some newfangled viral plague. Then, have something go wrong, and we get a mutated viral strain . . . just to think out of the box. KFkairosfocus
January 26, 2012
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Hey Scott, To answer your question, nah, not really. I don't think we're all stuck in a loop or whatever or that everything is so predetermined. But I do think certain EVENTS are. Who exists during those events is a variable to the equation. That the event will happen does not. It's my belief that John saw those events (you know... cause he said he did). No, not everything seen was literal, nor could it all be. The dragon isn't a literal ten headed monster for example, but stands in for something else. However, the kingdom coming would need no such symbolism. Got some flowery descripters though. As for those things John didn't say were representations, [the lake and whatnot] don't forget, this is a 1st century mind seeing things that are to happen farther along. It's not like he'd know what to call crap he'd never seen before, he'd only describe it the best way his 1st century mind could. And where does John call it an 'inspiration'? I know many Bible scholars have called it such, but I didn't see it in my readthrough of the NIV or KJ, so I don't wonder if thats a translation thing or whether I missed it. Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. Jesus said some would see the Kingdom Come, and John saw the Kingdom come. I still don't see whats so hard about it.Sonfaro
January 26, 2012
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UB I tried going through your response item by item but I think it is easier to start again. You offer four “physical entailments” which are necessary for information transfer.  I take it that a “physical entailment” means something that must be present for information transfer to take place?  If you mean something more than that please explain. (I am sorry about the requests for precise definitions but experience has taught me it is necessary.) Now these things may be necessary (I am not sure but they may be).  However necessary is not the same as sufficient.  “Necessary” means if information transfer is taking place then these things must be in place.  It does not mean that if these things are in place then information transfer must be taking place.  In particular if they are in place for gene expression it does not mean that information transfer is taking place. I use the example of the sun and the snowdrop because all four of these things appeared to be place and yet we would both agree information transfer did not take place. (Why did you think it odd of me to offer a counterexample?) You have stressed another condition – not only must there be a causal relationship between A and C but the “physical arrangement of matter in A” must be the cause of the “physical arrangement of matter in C”.  I didn’t realise that this was also essential. So let’s look at another example. Suppose there are a number of tile missing from my roof and consequently a pattern of damp patches on the ceiling.  We have: (1) A physical arrangement of matter – the arrangement of missing tiles. (2) A relationship between this arrangement and an another arrangement of matter – the damp patches on my ceiling. (3) A connecting rule established in a material object – rain.  The rule being that the damp patch appears below the missing tile. (4) They are all discrete. But there is no information transfer taking place.  Therefore four physical entailments are not sufficient for information transfer. QED. You accuse me of anthropomorphism.  That maybe because I believe what makes something information is how it is used not its physical characteristics.  What you are doing is like trying to define what a language is in terms of the sounds associated with it.   markf
January 25, 2012
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Hi vj,
Obstinate refusal of the free offer of God’s love, on one’s deathbed, precludes entry into Heaven. Struggles with unbelief in one’s final moments are another matter entirely.
What if one simply doesn't believe? No struggle, no rebellion, just an inability to believe on the basis of insufficient evidence. Would a fair God punish such a person, much less eternally?
The exact moment of death is not known to us, but to God alone.
But what is magic about the exact moment of death? Why should God be merciful up to that moment, then slam the door on our fingers one second afterward?
...but even omnipotence can unblind an intellect corrupted by personal sin, as it is an obstacle of our own making.
I assume you meant to say "can't unblind". If what you say is true, then God is not omnipotent. Omnipotence is the ability to do anything that isn't logically impossible. It is not logically impossible to get a message across to a sinful person, so an omnipotent God must be able to do that. You say there are cases where he can't do that, which means he is not omnipotent. Also note that this is not an issue of respecting free will. God could get his message across to everyone without violating their free will. After all, they can still choose to either accept him or reject him.
I have to say I really don’t buy your explanation of why the words of Jesus on the imminent coming of the kingdom didn’t get edited out of the Gospels, or at least explained in a way that would not trouble believers, especially as the early Christians had to contend with scoffers from the get-go. [emphasis mine]
That is precisely what I suggested:
3) If they did know that the prophecy was false, maybe they were rationalizing it just as you are;
vj:
5. If you don’t like the explanation I proposed, equating the coming with the Transfiguration, here’s one from inerrancy.org: The Answer: It refers to when Jesus “won” His kingdom by the crucifixion as proved by the resurrection. He came into His kingdom after triumphing over Satan. Christians disagree on whether the starting day was the resurrection, or Pentecost, but that is a very minor point.
That rationalization doesn't work either, because in Matthew 16, Jesus makes it clear that he is talking about the Judgment, not the resurrection:
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. [emphasis mine] 28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
You continue:
I’m not arguing that “that regardless of the evidence, we have to assume that God couldn’t have done better,” as you claim. What I’m saying is that if we claim that God could have done better, we have to be specific about precisely how He could have done better, at both the macro and micro level.
Let me show you how someone could use your argument to reach the opposite conclusion:
Demon 1: God is evil. We know this because of all the evil we see in the world. But still, he could be a lot more evil. Demon 2: What I’m saying is that if we claim that God could have done more evil, we have to be specific about precisely how He could have done more evil, at both the macro and micro level.
Same evidence, same logic, opposite conclusion. If you can use an argument equally well to defend a claim and its opposite, you've got a bad argument.
You argue that “God could have chosen to make a world without us,” and so He could. But if a better world necessarily precludes a world without us, then the atheist has no right to complain that God didn’t make a better world, because he is then basically wishing himself out of existence.
So? There's nothing incoherent about that. Plenty of people have sacrificed themselves to make the world a better place. Do you think they're all lunatics? And besides that, your argument that if we were different, we wouldn't be us any more just doesn't make sense. We change throughout our lives. I've changed since I was eight years old, but that doesn't mean I'm not the same person. God could have made me different, but still me.champignon
January 25, 2012
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Sonfaro, If you believe that John saw actual events and not a vision, does that mean that every beast and man-faced insect will literally appear at some point in the future? That would seem odd for a few reasons. One, it's very conspicuous. Second, many of the images from Revelation relate to previous visions in the Bible such as in Daniel where he saw similar beasts which were not literal but represented governments. Third, in chapter 20 Hell is emptied of its dead and thrown into a lake of fire, followed by death. This but one of many things John recorded that make no sense at all if taken literally. All the nations gathered at a single place is another. A handful of the items in the vision are even directly interpreted. What John sees as frogs are said to be demonic expressions to gather the nations to war. The notion that John went forward in time and saw all this stuff doesn't fly. He even calls it an inspiration. Inspiration means being moved or influenced by spirit, not time travel.ScottAndrews2
January 25, 2012
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Hi champignon, Just a few quick comments. 1. Weakness of will is a very different thing from obstinacy. Obstinate refusal of the free offer of God's love, on one's deathbed, precludes entry into Heaven. Struggles with unbelief in one's final moments are another matter entirely. In the words of Mark 9:24: "Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief" (KJV). 2. The exact moment of death is not known to us, but to God alone. 3. Generally, the reason why an omnipotent Creator can't get His message across to our weakened minds has to do with human sin. I'm not just talking about Original Sin here, but about actual sin - i.e. sins people commit, which impede their ability to reason clearly about matters supernatural. God's power can certainly overcome the effects of Original Sin if God chooses to do that, but even omnipotence can't unblind an intellect corrupted by personal sin, as it is an obstacle of our own making. (Edited typo: changed can -> can't. VJT) 4. I have to say I really don't buy your explanation of why the words of Jesus on the imminent coming of the kingdom didn't get edited out of the Gospels, or at least explained in a way that would not trouble believers, especially as the early Christians had to contend with scoffers from the get-go. For instance, see John 21:23 and the saying about John's death, which Jesus' followers felt the need to clarify, in order to combat false accusations that a prophecy had failed. Also, most scholars say the Gospels were written around 65-100 A.D., which is after most of the first generation of Christians had passed away. 5. If you don't like the explanation I proposed, equating the coming with the Transfiguration, here's one from inerrancy.org:
The Answer: It refers to when Jesus "won" His kingdom by the crucifixion as proved by the resurrection. He came into His kingdom after triumphing over Satan. Christians disagree on whether the starting day was the resurrection, or Pentecost, but that is a very minor point. Matthew has a special emphasis on the kingdom of Heaven. The kingdom of heaven would start out visibly small like a mustard seed (Matthew 13:31), like yeast it would not be visible but its effects would be visible in the dough of the world (Matthew 13:33), but in the end angels will weed out of the kingdom of heaven everything that causes sins and all who do evil (Matthew 13:41-42). The kingdom of Heaven is like a buried treasure that one secretly finds (Matthew 13:44), but it is extremely valuable like a merchant who sells all to buy a fine pearl (Matthew 13:45-46). So as the parable of the net shows in Matthew 13:47-50, the Kingdom of heaven is something in this life with both good and bad fish, but it also has its ultimate fulfillment at the end of the age. The kingdom of God was within us (Lk 17:21). Peter in Matthew 16:19, and the other apostles later were given the keys of the kingdom. At the Last Supper, Jesus said he would not drink of the fruit of the vine again until He drank it anew with them in the Father’s Kingdom. Matthew 26:29. Jesus ate and drank with the disciples after His resurrection. Summary: The disciples, who lived ordinary lifespans, say the kingdom of Heaven came to earth after Jesus’ resurrection. While the Jews might have looked for a military kingdom that would overthrow the Romans, Jesus taught the kingdom was like a mustard seed, yeast, or a pearl of great price. It was small, hard to see at first, of great value, and would have great effects. See Hard Sayings of the Bible p.428-430, When Critics Ask p.349-350, and Now That’s a Good Question p.46-47 for more info.
On reflection, I think that's a better answer than the one I gave you originally. 6. You say my argument about natural law could prove anything. Not true. I'm not arguing that "that regardless of the evidence, we have to assume that God couldn’t have done better," as you claim. What I'm saying is that if we claim that God could have done better, we have to be specific about precisely how He could have done better, at both the macro and micro level. To do otherwise is simply magical Pegasus-style thinking, of the kind I criticized here and here. 7. You argue that "God could have chosen to make a world without us," and so He could. But if a better world necessarily precludes a world without us, then the atheist has no right to complain that God didn't make a better world, because he is then basically wishing himself out of existence.vjtorley
January 25, 2012
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Hi Champ, I'm pretty sure Jesus 'meant' what he said: "That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power." IOW: some of you will see the kingdom of God coming in it's glory. I doubt Jesus knew any more details than that. Heck, he didn't even know WHEN it was coming... "However, no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself. Only the Father knows. Mark 13:32 NIV" Anything more than that is 'Champ' interpretation, which I'm sure you're legally allowed to do in the country you live (I'm assuming USA?) but doesn't mean you're right. Like I said. Keyword in EVERY translation is 'sight/seeing'. It doesn't change from King James to NIV, to African Study Bible, Kids Bop Bible or ANY translation you throw at it. Jesus predicted some would 'see' the kingdom come. And John was one of 'em. He 'SAW' the kingdom of God come with power... PLUS the events that led up to it and a little bit afterwards. It wasn't a 'vision'. It was an OOB experience. And unless you completely discount Revelation (which is what you seem to be attempting) this is biblical fact. Ergo, John was among those Jesus was talking about. But whatever. You can keep denying it if it feels good to ya. Doesn't rock my boat either way. Just pointing out the obvious. *shrug*Sonfaro
January 25, 2012
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Hello Mark, sorry I did not see your post earlier today.
You have developed a debating technique where instead of trying to understand and engage with what the other person has written you accuse them of not trying or call it an anthropomorphic mess or something similar and then refer them to this link. It is a bit discouraging as I was already responding to the link plus your question. But I will try again.
My goal was to encourage you to engage the argument instead of making vague statements (as in your initial post). You may, of course, disagree and view your first post as precise and/or profound. In any case, I pointed out that your response was an anthropomorphic mess, which is a position I intend to defend, should you insist an unnecessarily anthropomorphic view of information transfer. In either of these outcomes, the discussion will be dealing with the evidence actually contained within the argument – which is a position I favor, and one which favors me.
In your linked argument you propose four essential characteristics of information
In my linked argument I make a case for four physical entailments involved in the transfer of recorded information. Establishing the existence of these four entailments within a system confirms the existence of recorded information transfer.
I am bit confused by the last one. Do you mean discrete in the senses the three components are discrete and not continuous, or in the sense that they are separate from each other? I suspect the second because the marks on a music box cylinder are not discrete in the first sense.
Frankly, I find these types of passages to be strained and somewhat disingenuous. When a person states within an explanation that: “an apple is an apple, but the word “apple” is a separate thing altogether” —OR— “a bee dancing in a particular way during flight is a separate thing than having the other bees fly off in a particular direction” —AND— makes these comments in the context of a larger discussion specifically highlighting the separateness of these entities, then I find it hard to understand how an intelligent individual such as yourself would become confused about whether or not I intended to imply that these things were “separate from each other”. In any case, yes, I mean 'separate'.
Assuming that is true then I would say that the three components you identify are necessary but not sufficient for certain definitions of information.
The (four) physical entailments I have provided are those which are necessary for the transfer of recorded information from a purely physical perspective (without regard to the source or destination/effect of the information).
All you have said is that there needs to be three components A, B and C and B links A and C. That is true of any causal chain where A causes B causes C or vice versa. But that is not enough to make A information about C or vice versa.
In this passage, you’ve stripped the observations of their context, then used this stripped down version to create a distorted visualization where representations cause protocols, and protocols cause effects. You are correct however that this scenario does not make A information about C. A is only information about C (to use your terms) if A is matter arranged to represent an effect C within a system, and if B is matter arranged in order to actualize the input of A into creating effect C in that system.
For example, the changing angle of the sun causes the atmospheric temperature to rise which causes snowdrops to bloom. Each is discrete from the other. But the snowdrop is not information and nor is the changing angle of the sun.
This is a very odd thing. You’ve presented this as an example demonstrating some level of physical kinship or equivalence to observed information transfer, while simultaneously purporting to show why it is not representative of information transfer after all. As for equivalence, this example seems to suggest that the angle of the sun is materially equivalent to matter being arranged in order to represent an effect within a system (blooming snowdrops)... and that the relationship between the sun and snowdrops is established by a transfer protocol/rule (which is apparently a change in atmospheric temperature). In this scenario, the angle of the sun would therefore be equivalent to recorded information about the blooming of snowdrops - which is so far off the mark; I am not sure why you brought it up. Setting aside the dissimilarities for the moment, this scenario stems from the wholly anthropomorphic view that “information is contained in everything, (which is easily demonstrated to be false). Not only does such a view fail for material and conceptual reasons, it cannot account for the physical dynamics of actual representations which exist in nature. I found that entire passage unececssary and confusing.
You do also say A represents C. But that begs the question because the issue under debate is what does “represent” mean.
What the word “represent” stands for is not the issue under debate. What is at issue is that the physical objects and dynamic relationships observed in all known transfers of information also exist in the transfer of genetic information. What you might want to label these things is secondary; it is the physical observations that are important. If you’d like to refrain from calling a thing that is ‘mapped to or stands for something else’ a “representation” and call it a “knuckydorf” instead, then that is fine. We just need to let everyone know. Otherwise, we have a word that is already prepackaged to describe the phenomena of something standing for or being mapped to something else. We are lucky in that we do not have to venture very far from the general and practical definition of this term, and are not even forced to stipulate a variant. That word is “represent”.
represent: to serve as a sign or symbol of (Merriam-Webster) to be a sign or symbol of something (Cambridge) to have a particular signification; stand for (Oxford)
Again, it is the physical dynamics which are at issue. (continuing...)
Which takes me back to my “anthropomorphic mess” of a response. What is the extra component that makes the relationship between A, B and C one of information? It seems clear to me that it is when the relationship between A and C is used for communication.
If by “communication” you mean to say that the physical representations contained in the input are controlling/constraining the physical effects at the output by means of transfer protocols, then I have no issue with your assertion. This observation does nothing to refute the argument.
To return to base pairs and amino acids. There is a very complex causal chain between base pair and amino acid with several components between. But this is not sufficient to make either information. It requires communication.
The observations (of physical entailments) which are required to confirm the existence of recorded information transfer are coherently provided in the argument. I see nothing in your post which refutes any these observations. At this point I am not even certain that was your intent.Upright BiPed
January 25, 2012
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Sonfaro, Are you serious? When Jesus said this...
And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.
...you actually believe that he meant this?
Verily I say unto you, one of you will time travel into the future, see that the kingdom of God has already come, then travel back in time and die before the kingdom of God comes.
Wow. Please tell me you're not serious.champignon
January 25, 2012
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"If you see that something “has come”, it means that it has already come. Its coming is in the past. It has already happened." And if indeed John was travelling through time with a guide (as he says he was) he would have seen the kingdom come... in the past... as in already happened. This is a fixed point in time. Like the Doctors 'death' over in Who. All that was required is for John so see it. Wibbly-wobbly timey-whimey or whatever. -_-'Sonfaro
January 25, 2012
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Huh? It's not hard at all dude. John goes up. Travels through time. Sees second coming. Goes home. Tada. Real question is why you're trying so hard not to acknowledge it, honestly. The only qualifiers Jesus said is that you'd see the kingdom come full tilt. Well, John saw the kingdom come full tilt... and everything that led up to it. No where does Jesus say they'd have the actual kingdom. Just that it would be seen.Sonfaro
January 25, 2012
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Sonfaro, Read my comment 8.1 again. If you see that something "has come", it means that it has already come. Its coming is in the past. It has already happened. Now ask yourself why you are working so hard to avoid the straightforward and obvious meaning of the text. (I know the answer, having been a Christian in my youth, but I want you to think about it.)champignon
January 25, 2012
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I think you're conflating 'visions' with 'out of body/spirit journey/whatever you call its'. Not the same. OH! Because your materialist you assume they're the same maybe? Yeah... They aren't. Think ghost (that patrick Swayze movie with whoopi) except not dead yet. That's John. A vision isn't much different than a dream.Sonfaro
January 25, 2012
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And again, what John gets isn't a 'just' a vision. And he 'sees' it(heaven/KoG) come. 'With power'. (sees the events that lead up to it too.) And then when he's sent back writes about what it looked/s like. I mean you can give any translation and the bottom line remains the same: John saw the kingdom before he died, at full power, during/after the second coming. I don't think it's all that hard dude.Sonfaro
January 25, 2012
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Sonfaro, Look again at the NIV: "before they see that the kingdom of God [b]has come[/b] with power." The second coming happens, then they see it. It's not a premonitory vision.champignon
January 25, 2012
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Yo Champ. Key word in every translation is sight. Jesus said some would 'see' heaven in/with it's glory/power/(insert adj.) Not 'heaven will descend from the clouds and everyone will dance in the square'. Just 'some will see heaven/KoG in its glory.' According to John, before he died, he saw Heaven in it's glory/coming to power/whatever. Wrote a whole book about it. Wasn't a 'mere' vision either. Dude had a total Out Of Body experience. Saw the battle plans against Satan and 'ish. Was getting led around by Angels. Went up to the gates. All that good stuff. *shrug* You don't have to agree I guess, but whatever.Sonfaro
January 25, 2012
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I will make a bargain with you. You abandon your theist closed mind and I will abandon my atheist closed mind and we will both become agnostics.
And I'll buy a round of drinks for everyone!champignon
January 25, 2012
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Hi Sonfaro, That doesn't work either. If you read Mark 9:1 in context, it's clear that Jesus is talking about the actual second coming, not a mere vision:
8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels. 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power. 9:2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.
Also, if you look at alternate translations, the intent becomes clearer. For example: NIV:
1 And he said to them, “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.”
champignon
January 25, 2012
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vj
The third and fourth points merely tell us that we should be wary of specific claims that God has said this or that, at some point in history – which isn’t the same as saying that all such claims are false, or that the evidence for each of these claims is equal.
Which would also presumably apply to claims about how fairies look.  So perhaps you take back this statement:
On top of that, the disparity in the way fairies look to people from different cultures suggests that they’re not physical entities as such
You then wrote:
The second point does not invalidate belief in God, as God is supposed to be the Ultimate Good, capable of satisfying all our natural longings. It would therefore be strange if nobody had a deep-seated or “built-in” desire for God to exist. You may of course argue that having a desire, even a “built-in” one, doesn’t make its object real. But for all our other natural desires (e.g. food, warmth, sex, social contact), the object does exist. A person with a strong desire for unlimited love might therefore legitimately wonder whether a Being capable of satisfying this desire exists. The desire for fairies, by contrast, is not psychologically fundamental in the way that the desire for God is. It can hardly be called “natural”.
Who are you to say that the desire for fairies is not psychologically fundamental or natural?  Many people have that belief and I am sure those that do would say it was psychologically fundamental and natural. 
I am well aware that your evaluation of these arguments is strikingly different from my own, but at the very least, the arguments should rule out strong atheism, making agnosticism a more reasonable option. One good thing about agnostics is that they have open minds.
And my objections should make agnosticism a reasonable option for you.  I will make a bargain with you. You abandon your theist closed mind and I will abandon my atheist closed mind and we will both become agnostics.markf
January 25, 2012
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Champ, I may be wrong... but technically John the revelator saw the kingdom of heaven coming before he died. So... There's that. - SonfaroSonfaro
January 25, 2012
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UB   You have developed a debating technique where instead of trying to understand and engage with what the other person has written you accuse them of not trying or call it an anthropomorphic mess or something similar and then refer them to this link.  It is a bit discouraging as I was already responding to the link plus your question.  But I will try again. In your linked argument you propose four essential characteristics of information:  
That list includes the four material observations as discussed in the previous paragraphs: a) the existence of an arrangement of matter acting as a physical representation, b) the existence of an arrangement of matter to establish the relationship between a representation and the effect it represents within a system (the protocol), c) the existence of physical effects being driven by the input of the representations, and d) the dynamic property that they each remain discrete.
I am bit confused by the last one.  Do you mean discrete in the senses the three components are discrete and not continuous, or in the sense that they are separate from each other?  I suspect the second because the marks on a music box cylinder are not discrete in the first sense. Assuming that is true then I would say that the three components you identify are necessary but not sufficient for certain definitions of information.  All you have said is that there needs to be three components A, B and C and B links A and C.  That is true of any causal chain where A causes B causes C or vice versa.  But that is not enough to make A information about C or vice versa. For example, the changing angle of the sun causes the atmospheric temperature to rise which causes snowdrops to bloom.  Each is discrete from the other. But the snowdrop is not information and nor is the changing angle of the sun. You do also say A represents C.  But that begs the question because the issue under debate is what does “represent” mean. (There is another problem about causal chains which I will keep back for the moment, lest it confuse the issue further). Which takes me back to my “anthropomorphic mess” of a response.  What is the extra component that makes the relationship between A, B and C one of information? It seems clear to me that it is when the relationship between A and C is used for communication.  The position of the food causes the bees dance via the bees sensory mechanism.  It also causes  that same bee to fly in that direction the next time it sets out.  The difference is that the dance is used to communicate something to the other bees. To return to base pairs and amino acids.  There is a very complex causal chain between base pair and amino acid with several components between.  But this is not sufficient to make either information.  It requires communication.markf
January 25, 2012
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vj,
Regarding your claim that Matthew 16:28, Mark 9:1 and Luke 9:27 “obviously” describe a failed prophecy of Jesus, I’d be careful of saying that the interpretation of any verse in Scripture is “obvious”, given that it was written 2,000 or more years ago in languages which we do not speak.
If it's as hard to interpret scripture as you say, we must again ask: why would an omnipotent God do such a bad job of communicating with us? Doesn't he care whether we get the message?
If you want a fairly sensible explanation of the three verses you cite as an obvious failed prophecy, see here and here.
The fact that you could only bring yourself to call it "fairly sensible" is telling. Clearly it is not the most sensible interpretation, by a long shot. Mark 9 is unambiguous:
1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power. 2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.
The transfiguration was clearly not "the kingdom of God coming with power." And Jesus wasn't telling them, "Verily, some of you aren't going to die in the next six days." It's a ludicrous rationalization.
(Ask yourself: if the failure of the prophecy were that obvious, then why did the Evangelists include these words of Jesus in the Gospels?)
1) Depending on when the Gospels were written, they didn't know that the prophecy would end up being false; 2) They might have hesitated to edit words attributed to Jesus; 3) If they did know that the prophecy was false, maybe they were rationalizing it just as you are; 4) Given all of the other falsehoods and contradictions in the Bible, is it really a surprise that this particular one didn't get edited out?
You asked me about natural law. It’s true that (on the theistic view) natural law is created by God and that the consequences of breaking it are built-in by God, but that fact of itself doesn’t make these consequences arbitrary. Nor does it make the consequences unfair. To show that, one would have to be able to describe in detail a world of intelligent beings who were subject to a different kind of natural law from ours, and then show that the natural law in this alternative world was fairer than the natural law which we are subject to.
That argument could be used to justify any state of affairs. If it can justify anything and everything, it justifies nothing. You're basically saying that regardless of the evidence, we have to assume that God couldn't have done better. A great strategy for perpetuating dogma, but not so good if you're seeking truth.
You might also ask why God didn’t make us differently – e.g. with three sexes instead of two, or with the natural ability to reproduce simply by dividing in two. But if God had made you like that, then you wouldn’t be “you” any more, but someone else, so the question is meaningless.
That's silly. Who says that you and I have to exist? God could have chosen to make a world without us.
You claim that Scripture speaks of Hell as imposed by God. I’m sorry, but the late Pope John Paul II disagreed with you on this one: see this short talk of his on Hell, here.
I'll let John Paul fight it out with the Bible. They can't both be right (and most likely neither one is).
Lastly, God doesn’t have difficulty in getting His message across. Rather, it is our weakened minds, which (ever since the Fall) have difficulty in grasping truth clearly.
So you're saying that the creator of the universe is unable to get the truth across to us in our weakened state? What happened to omnipotence?
In any case, God, who is all-knowing and who loves us as a father loves his children, can understand our weaknesses, and is merciful. It is only those who “definitively reject the Father’s mercy, even at the last moment of their life” as the Pope puts it, who cannot be saved.
A fair God he would understand that our 'weakness' could leads us to disbelieve even at the last moment. And why draw the line at death? How is that merciful?champignon
January 24, 2012
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Hello Mark, It's been a while; I hope you and yours are all well. I trust you'll allow me to just cut to the chase, the semiotic argument is derived from purely material observations. This is made abundantly clear within the argument, yet, your answer is just an anthropomorphic mess. Dr Elizabeth Liddle committed much of these same errors. I offer you that link.Upright BiPed
January 24, 2012
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UB
When I asked for engagement, I was really more interested in an earnest attempt at refutation.
I promise you I was completely earnest.  I have clearly not succeeded in making my argument clear enough.
From what I see of your post, you added the rather oddball concept of the ‘stability of a symbol’,
No.  I said:
A symbol has to be more than a stable relationship between one object and another.
So I was talking a stable relationship  and saying a symbol has to be something more than that. Perhaps a better way to describe is that for A to be a symbol for B there has to be a correlation between A and B (when A is present there must a greater than normal probability that A is present).  But that is not sufficient.  Snowdrops correlate with Spring but are not generally symbols of Spring.  It is simply that one causes the other. What could make a snowdrop a symbol of Spring?  If it was used as a code by someone to represent Spring to someone else – perhaps it is put through the letter box of an invalid to indicate that Spring has arrived.  This would imply someone trying to communicate something. i.e. symbols entail someone trying to communicate something to someone else. DNA base pairs correlate with Amino acids.  One causes the other. But there is no one using base pairs to communicate something about Amino acids to someone else.  So they act like symbols because of the correlation and because they are discrete.  But they are not in fact symbols because they are not being used to communicate anything.markf
January 24, 2012
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Yes, except that it was absolutely based on generations of quiet science, quiet people really thinking. There was no [vulgarity deleted] involved at all, no wishful thinking, no absurd myth-making, no ridiculous covering up of deep fear. All of the Bible, all religions, are composed of cowardice pretending to be reality – abject cowardice. We don’t like to think that we are undoubtedly going to die. That’s what all religion is based on – fear of death. The emboldened comment by Dr Hanlon is definitely not it. More than once in his opus, Darwin made appeals to the reader to bear with him on his beliefs, one gets the sense that he knew he was making outrageous claims. Hanlon's next statement that all religions are false is wrong especially when i consider that some religions are atheistic the best example of this is Jainism. Now to say that because religions are false God is false is a non-sequitur because not all religions assume a deity. Such an argument presumes that all religions are false, what makes it worse, is that the conclusion doesn't follow for the reason I have previously given.Uyi Iredia
January 24, 2012
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champignon, Thank you for your post. Regarding your claim that Matthew 16:28, Mark 9:1 and Luke 9:27 "obviously" describe a failed prophecy of Jesus, I'd be careful of saying that the interpretation of any verse in Scripture is "obvious", given that it was written 2,000 or more years ago in languages which we do not speak. If you want a fairly sensible explanation of the three verses you cite as an obvious failed prophecy, see here and here . (Ask yourself: if the failure of the prophecy were that obvious, then why did the Evangelists include these words of Jesus in the Gospels?) You asked me about natural law. It's true that (on the theistic view) natural law is created by God and that the consequences of breaking it are built-in by God, but that fact of itself doesn't make these consequences arbitrary. Nor does it make the consequences unfair. To show that, one would have to be able to describe in detail a world of intelligent beings who were subject to a different kind of natural law from ours, and then show that the natural law in this alternative world was fairer than the natural law which we are subject to. You might also ask why God didn't make us differently - e.g. with three sexes instead of two, or with the natural ability to reproduce simply by dividing in two. But if God had made you like that, then you wouldn't be "you" any more, but someone else, so the question is meaningless. You claim that Scripture speaks of Hell as imposed by God. I'm sorry, but the late Pope John Paul II disagreed with you on this one: see this short talk of his on Hell, here . Lastly, God doesn't have difficulty in getting His message across. Rather, it is our weakened minds, which (ever since the Fall) have difficulty in grasping truth clearly. In any case, God, who is all-knowing and who loves us as a father loves his children, can understand our weaknesses, and is merciful. It is only those who "definitively reject the Father's mercy, even at the last moment of their life" as the Pope puts it, who cannot be saved.vjtorley
January 24, 2012
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markf, When I asked for engagement, I was really more interested in an earnest attempt at refutation. From what I see of your post, you added the rather oddball concept of the 'stability of a symbol', plus a touch of anthropomorphism, then went absolutely nowhere with it (particularily in regards to the physical distinction between an actual symbol and a non-symbol). Is there more, or does this response represent your most potent attempt at refuting the semiotic argument?Upright BiPed
January 24, 2012
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