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Some Things are Really Simple

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Here is an example:

Barry to Popperian:

Anyone who cannot unambiguously condemn the practice of chopping little boys and girls up and selling the pieces like so much meat shares in the evil of those who do so.

Popperian responds:

Note how Barry is making my point for me. I wrote:

From time to time, old words become obsolete. For an non-essentialist this is not a problem. This is because non-essentialists view words as a tool, not a Thing with a capital T. If any word ceases to function as a tool, a non-essentialists will quickly let it go and find some other new tool to solve problems with. On the other hand, an essentialist will not do this. Why not? Because, for the essentialist, all words correspond with Things with a capital T. And Things do not just disappear. Because of this view, an essentialist is significantly less likely to change their opinion of anything, if at all.

However, an essentialist is sure that some Thing actually corresponds with his words. As such, he will try to figure out why a non-essentialist won’t admit there really is such a Thing as the Thing he is talking about. The essentialist might merely think the non-essentialist is merely ignorant, or that their intellect is on the fritz. Or he might even decide you are down right evil. But the essentialist certainly won’t agree the Thing he refers to with his word can be so quickly dismissed.

(emphasis in original)

Let’s examine this. It is 1943 and I say:

Anyone who cannot unambiguously condemn the practice of cooking Jews in ovens like so much meat shares in the evil of those who do so.

What would you think of someone who gave Popperian’s response? You would think they agree with the goals of the Holocaust and therefore share in the guilt of that unspeakable evil. And you would be right.

So yes, Popperian, I do say you are down right evil.

Popperian thinks he is oh-so-sophisticated. “Words are so ambiguous; I can’t possibly condemn the killers.” Meanwhile the slaughter of innocents continues unabated.

Damn your pseudo-sophisticated sophistry Popperian. It is counterproductive to dignify it by getting into the weeds and countering your logical fallacies point by point. Instead, like Dr. Johnson and his famous rock kicking demonstration, I refute your moral theorizing thusly:

Does your moral theory compel you unambiguously to condemn the practice of chopping little boys and girls up and selling the pieces like so much meat?

No? Then your moral theory is as worthless as a fresh steaming pile of dog feces.

Comments
StephenB, While I admire your tenacity with Learned Hand, are you not violating Matthew 7:6? LH is many things, but he is not stupid. He has understood you from the beginning. Pretending not to understand is one of his favorite deceptions. It is a tactic he employs to deflect an argument from the main topic to endless explanations he steadfastly denies understanding.Barry Arrington
August 29, 2015
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Learned Hand
So here’s another “example in which Planned Parenthood, in the context of asserting a woman’s right to choose, ever referred to the “legal limitations” of that right.”
It's hard to know if you are really being serious or if your ideology is clouding your judgment. When Planned Parenthood asserts the woman's absolute right to an abortion, it is claiming that there should be no legal restrictions and that any restriction at all violates the constitution. You have yet to cite an example where Planned Parenthood or NARAL accepts any restrictions on a woman’s right to choose. To acknowledge their existence is, by no means, to accept them as legitimate. I will explain the meaning of each complaint that you cite, since, in each case, it seems to escape you.
After battling the state in court to protect women's health in Texas, on October 31st a panel of three Federal judges allowed unconstitutional abortion restrictions to take effect. The restrictions clearly violate Texas women's constitutional rights and drastically reduce access to safe and legal abortion statewide.
It means that those restrictions are unconstitutional because, in their judgment, a woman’s right to choose is absolute. These restrictions, in other words, “violate constitutional rights, just as it says. When Planned Parenthood speaks of a woman’s right to choose, it is saying that any legal restriction whatsoever is unconstitutional and violates that same right. That is what they mean by the phrase “right to choose"--to be free of any such restrictions.
This fight is far from over. Women in Texas should have access to the highest quality health care, no matter where they live. That is why we will continue to fight to protect women's access to health care across the state.
What do you think the fight is about? It is about the conflict between Planned Parenthood’s claim that the right to choose leaves no room for any restrictions whatsoever and the states intrusions on that right in the form of unconstitutional restrictions. It has nothing to do with acknowledging the fact that restrictions exist and everything to do with their claimed right to be free of any such restrictions.
As of October 1st, 2011, state law now requires all women seeking an abortion to have at least 2 visits to the abortion facility. Why do I have to make two visits for an abortion?
Translation: My absolute right to choose is violated when I have to make two visits.
In the summer of 2011, the Texas Legislature passed a bill that requires women to have an ultrasound at least 24 hours before she has an abortion. Planned Parenthood always puts women’s health first and we fought against this law because there is no medical reason for requiring women to come 24 hours in advance. Ultrasounds have been a standard part of abortion services and are always performed on every patient before any type of procedure is done.
Are you getting the pattern yet? Planned Parenthood “always puts women’s health first.” No matter what. Planned Parenthood does not recognize the legitimacy of any restriction in the context of a woman’s right to choose. This was Eugen's original point about the meaning of the "absolute" right to choose. I have asked you to find an exception to that rule. I submit that you will never find one because no such exception exists.StephenB
August 29, 2015
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LH,
That’s why I support the notion that abortion should be safe, legal, and rare
Said every pro-abort ever who cares only that abortion is safe and legal and does absolutely nothing to make abortion rare. LH, you are cliche machine this morning. Bill Clinton coined that particular piece of misdirection in the 90s. And then he turned around and vetoed a bill that would have made it illegal to kill a child when everything but his head was outside of the mother. He is a famous liar. You are like him, except for the famous part.Barry Arrington
August 29, 2015
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LH,
I’d prefer people use prophylactics and the pill instead. They’re more efficient, safer than . . .
killing the baby. Yes they are.Barry Arrington
August 29, 2015
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LH,
Who are these liberals?
He writes as if they were not quoted in comment 47. Pretending not to know something that you do know is another lie. LH, you should take note that in defending your position you feel compelled to lie. That should give you pause about your position. I doubt that it will.Barry Arrington
August 29, 2015
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LH:
The point you’re trying to make eludes me.
Liar.Barry Arrington
August 29, 2015
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Literally who believes that people should be able to make any choice they want without legal penalties?
The people who don’t believe that are Anti-Choice, obviously. So, what does the Pro Choice position indicate?
It indicates support for the right to choose an abortion, within limits. People under the “pro choice” banner will disagree over what those limits should be. Ok, but that wouldn’t work as a slogan. Instead of Pro-Choice (which is absolute) it would be “Pro-Choice to have an abortion”. Sure, labels are rhetorical devices. Just like “pro life” for those people who also favor the death penalty or withholding life-saving social support from the poor—they’re “pro life” in a certain, specific context. Or “anti-war” people who think WWII was a good war, or people who favor the “war on drugs” but have a glass of wine with dinner. Labels are rhetorical devices. So what? No one really thinks that being “pro choice” means “everyone should be able to choose whatever, whenever, with no penalties.” Even without materialism, if abortion is a surgical procedure no different than having an appendix removed (which it would be if the fetus is not a child), then why the claim “I’m personally opposed to abortion”? I don’t know, it’s not my position. I do think it’s a poor choice for family planning; I’d prefer people use prophylactics and the pill instead. They’re more efficient, safer than an invasive procedure, and less divisive. That’s why I support the notion that abortion should be safe, legal, and rare, although I wouldn’t say I’m opposed to abortion per se. It was a long fight because there was significant pressure against that legislation and abortion at any stage of pregnancy remains constitutionally-protected in the USA today. Are you sure about that? I don’t really know all that much about the subject, but I was under the impression that most states prohibit, constitutionally, post-viability abortions.Learned Hand
August 29, 2015
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LH
Literally who believes that people should be able to make any choice they want without legal penalties?
The people who don't believe that are Anti-Choice, obviously. So, what does the Pro Choice position indicate?
When you say “choice,” do you maybe mean only the choice to have an abortion, rather than any choice at all?
Ok, but that wouldn't work as a slogan. Instead of Pro-Choice (which is absolute) it would be "Pro-Choice to have an abortion". But if one is "Pro-Choosing Abortion", this is the same as "Pro-Abortion". But we know this is exactly what the term Pro Choice is trying to avoid.
Even then, I can’t think of anyone who supports an absolutely unlimited right to abortion.
You may be right, but again logically none of it follows. We've tried this discussion with several of the materialist/atheist/Darwinists here and it ends up in circles. Even without materialism, if abortion is a surgical procedure no different than having an appendix removed (which it would be if the fetus is not a child), then why the claim "I'm personally opposed to abortion"? When we asked a chronic-liar like Zachriel, "why are you against abortion?" He claimed it was because some women get upset about it. We since learned it was useless to ever try to get a truthful answer from him. But he's not so alone with that. As for restrictions on abortion, a long political campaign was fought to restrict what is known as partial-birth abortion or even late-term abortion. It was a long fight because there was significant pressure against that legislation and abortion at any stage of pregnancy remains constitutionally-protected in the USA today.Silver Asiatic
August 29, 2015
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It's a child, not a choice. The choice comes BEFORE having unprotected sex.Virgil Cain
August 29, 2015
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What is it about the word “absolute” that you do not understand. You changed the subject and started discussing good and bad choices, which has nothing to do with his argument. I don't understand what you mean by choice being an "absolute" good, if you think the choice being made isn't relevant. In other words, how do you say (a) that liberals think that choice is an absolute good, and (b) that it's irrelevant that liberals think that some choices are bad? Isn't the fact that liberals are looking beyond the good of "choice" to the nature of the choice an indication that "choice" in and of itself isn't the most important thing? If what you're trying to say is that liberals think that "choice" is good, I agree with that. And so do conservatives and libertarians and anarchists and monarchists and whatnot. We all think that freedom is a good thing. We disagree about what choices should be subject to that freedom. That seems like such an obvious point that I'm wondering if I have misunderstood you, or if you misunderstood me in your rush to disapprove.Learned Hand
August 29, 2015
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Wow. How disingenuous can you get? I asked you to find an example where Parenthood, NARAL, etc. acknowledge legal limits to abortions for women, not children. Why did you leave the word woman out of your formulation when I clearly included it in mine? Everyone knows that women are not restricted by law the way children are. I’m sorry you think that’s disingenuous. Your question is bizarre, so I didn’t put much work into answering it. So here’s another “example in which Planned Parenthood, in the context of asserting a woman’s right to choose, ever referred to the “legal limitations” of that right.” http://www.plannedparenthood.org/planned-parenthood-center-for-choice/texas-abortion-laws That is a whole page of Planned Parenthood, in the context of asserting “Texas women’s constitutional rights,” refers to and discusses legal limitations on that right. They do not use the phrase “legal limitations,” as you put in quotes; I hope you don’t think that makes the response disingenuous. Do you really think that Planned Parenthood does not acknowledge any legal limitations on the right to choose?Learned Hand
August 29, 2015
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Learned Hand
His [Eugen's] point was the assertion that liberals support abortion because it’s a choice,...
No. That was not the point of the quote that you responded to. In it, he wrote,
Indeed, the idea that “choice” is an absolute rather than a relative good is the very reason that the movement is called the “pro-choice” movement.
What is it about the word "absolute" that you do not understand? His point was that, according to the abortionist lobby, no one should ever, or for any reason, interfere with that alleged right. You changed the subject and started discussing good and bad choices, which has nothing to do with his argument. I brought you back to the topic with my question, and you answered by trying to change the subject once again.StephenB
August 29, 2015
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Liberals are Pro-Choice. People should be able to choose whatever they want, without legal penalty. Choice is an absolute good. It’s Freedom to Choose. Pro-Freedom. Everybody should be Free. They don’t explain that it matters what the choice is. Who are these liberals? Literally who believes that people should be able to make any choice they want without legal penalties? That sounds like an anarchist, not a liberal, and even then I've never heard of an absolutist anarchist. When you say "choice," do you maybe mean only the choice to have an abortion, rather than any choice at all? Even then, I can't think of anyone who supports an absolutely unlimited right to abortion. I guess Peter Singer might; I know he walked back some of his more radical positions, but I don't know where he is today.Learned Hand
August 29, 2015
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The issue is what is “liberal logic.” And as I have repeatedly demonstrated, they celebrate “choice” as an absolute good. You and I both believe that is wrong. Are you prepared to repudiate the rhetoric of the pro-choice movement as illogical? The point you’re trying to make eludes me. Eugen’s formulation is right, but not all choices promote humane society so it’s wrong… it seems like you just want to argue and can’t quite concede that the formulation was imperfect. So rather than stamping your foot, why not state the logic you think is at issue? What’s the “liberal logic” you think you’re articulating? If you mean to say that liberals think all choices are good, that’s obviously wrong—liberals, like everyone else, discriminate and say that some choices are good and some are bad. If you mean to say that liberals think the freedom to make choices is generally good, within certain limits, and accepting that freedom means some people will make bad choices, then that seems pretty fair—but also not just “liberal” logic. I think everyone I’ve ever met believes that, although they’d draw the limits differently. If you mean to say that liberals think the right to choose an abortion is a good thing, then that’s pretty obvious. Although again, different liberals will draw different lines, such as what restrictions there should be on the right.Learned Hand
August 29, 2015
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Eugen, No, that logic doesn’t work either. You start with, “Practicing arbitrary demarcation on human life promotes humane society.” But that’s not something that anyone accepts as a general principle. Nor do liberals think that abortion restrictions are necessarily arbitrary. Also, liberals don’t believe that abortion is “killing babies.” (It seems that English, while you write it well, isn’t your first language, so the distinction might not be obvious to you; it’s significant to the debate.)Learned Hand
August 29, 2015
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SB: Can you provide any examples in which Planned Parenthood, in the context of asserting a woman’s right to choose, ever referred to the “legal limitations” of that right? Learned Hand
Yes. Was that a serious question? Did you actually think it would be hard to find examples of PP acknowledging that there are legal limits on abortion? That’s silly.
Wow. How disingenuous can you get? I asked you to find an example where Parenthood, NARAL, etc. acknowledge legal limits to abortions for women, not children. Why did you leave the word woman out of your formulation when I clearly included it in mine? Everyone knows that women are not restricted by law the way children are. Now please get serious and address the topic. Can you provide any examples in which Planned Parenthood, in the context of asserting a woman’s right to choose, ever referred to the “legal limitations” of that right? (Hopefully, the bold type will help you stay on topic).
With one google I found a good example of PP asserting that “your state may require one or both of your parents to give permission for your abortion or be told of your decision prior to the abortion.”
Irrelevant, as indicated.StephenB
August 29, 2015
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Pro-choice logic. LOL. For them, you're either Pro-Choice or Anti-Choice. If you're Anti-Choice, then you don't let people choose whatever they want. Liberals are Pro-Choice. People should be able to choose whatever they want, without legal penalty. Choice is an absolute good. It's Freedom to Choose. Pro-Freedom. Everybody should be Free. They don't explain that it matters what the choice is. And unborn children don't get the chance to choose either.Silver Asiatic
August 29, 2015
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KF @ 50. Just so. Thank you for the excellent analogy demonstrating the poverty of "pro-choice" logic. One wonders if LH -- who sees that poverty -- will change the subject again, repudiate it, or pretend we are talking about something else.Barry Arrington
August 29, 2015
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Learned Hand,
As I said in the comment to which you’re replying, it matters what the choice is.
And I have said repeatedly, I agree. The issue is what is "liberal logic." And as I have repeatedly demonstrated, they celebrate "choice" as an absolute good. You and I both believe that is wrong. Are you prepared to repudiate the rhetoric of the pro-choice movement as illogical?Barry Arrington
August 29, 2015
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LH: The White Rose martyrs sweep away all sophistry and clever argument in enabling of evils. I charge you to listen to their voice from the grave in the teeth of entrenched evil and mass bloodguilt, in words paid for in blood at the hands of the evil, CHRISTIAN blood -- yes, these are full bore martyrs at the hands of Hitler et al, judicially murdered for telling truth and calling for reform:
WR, II: Since the conquest of Poland three hundred thousand Jews have been murdered in this country in the most bestial way . . . The German people slumber on in their dull, stupid sleep and encourage these fascist criminals . . . Each man wants to be exonerated of a guilt of this kind, each one continues on his way with the most placid, the calmest conscience. But he cannot be exonerated; he is guilty, guilty, guilty! WR, IV: Every word that comes from Hitler's mouth is a lie. When he says peace, he means war, and when he blasphemously uses the name of the Almighty, he means the power of evil, the fallen angel, Satan. His mouth is the foul-smelling maw of Hell, and his might is at bottom accursed. True, we must conduct a struggle against the National Socialist terrorist state with rational means; but whoever today still doubts the reality, the existence of demonic powers, has failed by a wide margin to understand the metaphysical background of this war.
I charge you, again, read: http://www.historyisaweapon.com/defcon1/whiterose.html And if that does not stir your conscience, fear, fear for the endarkenment falsely deemed enlightenment that blights our civilisation. As One said long ago in his best known sermon -- a sermon that is the touchstone, sum and essence of the Judaeo-Christian ethical tradition:
Matt 6:22 “The eye is the lamp of the body. So, if your eye is healthy, your whole body will be full of light, 23 but if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!
We stand rebuked, and warned, 2,000 years ago. Guilty, guilty, guilty we are, every last one of us, inexcusably guilty. For our own good., let us throw ourselves on the mercy and grace of God and let us seek genuine repentance and reformation. For, we dare not call for justice -- the mere judgement of the consequences of our willful bloodguilt as a civilisation, would be our utter ruin. Guilty, guilty, guilty, we are. Let us repent. KFkairosfocus
August 29, 2015
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Practicing arbitrary demarcation on human life promotes humane society. Killing baby is practicing arbitrary demarcation on human life. Killing baby promotes humane society. Learned hand, it appears this is the logic you support. Is that correct?Eugen
August 29, 2015
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BA [attn LH et al], Let's try an experiment [--> shift time and topic to c. 1850, USA with Lincoln an obscure Lawyer off in Illinois, I think . . . ], noting that robbing someone of his liberty is a lesser offence than robbing him of his life:
Pro-choice occupies the broad middle ground on the abortion [--> CHATTEL, PLANTATION SLAVERY] issue. A large majority of North Americans believe abortion should be decided privately between a woman and her doctor [--> enslavement should be decided between a buyer and an owner or dealer in slaves]. Pro-choice people include those who are personally against abortion [--> slavery] or feel uncomfortable with it, but who would not impose their viewpoint by law onto all women [ --> owners or prospective buyers of slaves, who, being of colour are likely not quite as fully human and capable of being free as a white man, anyway]. Pro-choice does not mean pro-abortion [--> pro-chattel slavery].
In short, once an unborn child or a black person c 1850 is a human being, there is no justification for robbing of fundamental rights or freedoms, and every implication of having a duty to stand up for the civil peace of justice. But, as ever, when evil is backed up by entrenched power, it is dangerous to be right when the powerful are wrong. The "moderate" position in the face of entrenched evil then reveals itself to be enabling behaviour. So, the issue is what sort of reforming movement, if any, is possible, and how one may participate. Going further, the real questions on the table have to do with justice, rights, duties connected to rights, and fundamental equality of moral worth and nature among human beings. Where, abundant, bloody history testifies that dehumanisation of a voiceless or marginalised group or minority is the first step to oppression and mass murder. Such history also demonstrates beyond responsible, reasonable doubt, that institutionalised, widespread primary and secondary -- enabling -- bloodguilt is one of the most corrupting influences there is. For, a human being is of quasi-infinite value, so there is no finite compensation for bloodguilt. A point Lincoln recognised in his second inaugural address:
At this second appearing to take the oath of the Presidential office there is less occasion for an extended address than there was at the first. Then a statement somewhat in detail of a course to be pursued seemed fitting and proper. Now, at the expiration of four years, during which public declarations have been constantly called forth on every point and phase of the great contest which still absorbs the attention and engrosses the energies of the nation, little that is new could be presented. The progress of our arms, upon which all else chiefly depends, is as well known to the public as to myself, and it is, I trust, reasonably satisfactory and encouraging to all. With high hope for the future, no prediction in regard to it is ventured. On the occasion corresponding to this four years ago all thoughts were anxiously directed to an impending civil war. All dreaded it, all sought to avert it. While the inaugural address was being delivered from this place, devoted altogether to saving the Union without war, insurgent agents were in the city seeking to destroy it without war--seeking to dissolve the Union and divide effects by negotiation. Both parties deprecated war, but one of them would make war rather than let the nation survive, and the other would accept war rather than let it perish, and the war came. One-eighth of the whole population were colored slaves, not distributed generally over the Union, but localized in the southern part of it. These slaves constituted a peculiar and powerful interest. All knew that this interest was somehow the cause of the war. To strengthen, perpetuate, and extend this interest was the object for which the insurgents would rend the Union even by war, while the Government claimed no right to do more than to restrict the territorial enlargement of it. Neither party expected for the war the magnitude or the duration which it has already attained. Neither anticipated that the cause of the conflict might cease with or even before the conflict itself should cease. Each looked for an easier triumph, and a result less fundamental and astounding. Both read the same Bible and pray to the same God, and each invokes His aid against the other. It may seem strange that any men should dare to ask a just God's assistance in wringing their bread from the sweat of other men's faces, but let us judge not, that we be not judged. The prayers of both could not be answered. That of neither has been answered fully. The Almighty has His own purposes. "Woe unto the world because of offenses; for it must needs be that offenses come, but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh." If we shall suppose that American slavery is one of those offenses which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South this terrible war as the woe due to those by whom the offense came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a living God always ascribe to Him? Fondly do we hope, fervently do we pray, that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue until all the wealth piled by the bondsman's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said "the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether." With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation's wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan, to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations.
Our civilisation faces a terrible reckoning, the judgement of reaping what we have so willfully sown by corrupting and bloodily tainting law, conscience, institutions, politics and the hearts and minds of ordinary people. The scarlet stain is upon us all. Guilty, guilty, guilty. God, have mercy on us -- and that is why the substitutionary atonement is, in my considered opinion, our only hope for redemption, renewal and genuine reform. Precisely what ever so many have been deeply indoctrinated to despise and dismiss without serious consideration. KFkairosfocus
August 29, 2015
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Barry, look back at the prior comments. Are you sure you've understood what I wrote? Pay attention, for example, to the way I substituted "shoot an abortion doctor" for "getting an abortion." Eugen's proposed logic was that "allowing choices promotes humane society," and that because abortion is a choice, it must promote humane society. I pointed out that this is not the logic liberals use, and it obviously isn't, because it equally supports the argument that shooting abortion doctors (or doing heroin or sailing boats or singing songs or doing literally anything else) is good because it promotes a humane society. To be fair to Eugen, I doubt he meant his comment to be taken as a strict logical statement--and he responded to my criticism perfectly reasonably, by asking what I believe. You responded by attacking with sarcasm and dramatic outrage. But was I wrong? I note that you haven't really responded to my criticism of the logic he set out. For example, saying that liberals value the freedom to make a particular choice is not supporting the assertion that all choices promote a humane society, as is clear from my example substituting the choice to shoot an abortion doctor. As I said in the comment to which you're replying, it matters what the choice is.Learned Hand
August 28, 2015
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Eugen, I can’t speak for all liberals. Basically, I don’t believe that a fetus is a person in the same sense that an infant or an adult is. I don’t think there’s a single, objective point where a fetus becomes a person, but in my opinion it’s very reasonable to assume it happens sometime after conception and before birth. As a society we have a hard time deciding exactly where that line should be. Generally I favor making it viability, or the point at which the fetus could survive outside the womb. I do believe that the decision about whether to get an abortion within that period must lie primarily, if not entirely, with the mother. (Outside that period, when the fetus has the protections of a person, it’s no longer her decision to make.) Does that answer your question? Obviously it’s a complex issue, and simplifying it is both helpful and unhelpful. But thank you for asking, rather than just making broad and hostile assertions about people whose beliefs you don’t understand. That seems to be all the rage around here. You see, long time ago in East Europe there was a wise king who had bureaucrats to write the law and than king would invite simple peasant to hear the law and see if he can understand it. If it wasn’t understood bureaucrats would have to rewrite the law. I that’s a terrible idea. But I’m a lawyer, so I’m biased.Learned Hand
August 28, 2015
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LH,
Is this what any actual human beings believe?
LH, it took me about five seconds to find this:
Pro-choice occupies the broad middle ground on the abortion issue. A large majority of North Americans believe abortion should be decided privately between a woman and her doctor. Pro-choice people include those who are personally against abortion or feel uncomfortable with it, but who would not impose their viewpoint by law onto all women. Pro-choice does not mean pro-abortion.
http://www.prochoiceactionnetwork-canada.org/articles/realchoice.shtmlBarry Arrington
August 28, 2015
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Allowing choices promotes humane society. To [shoot abortion doctors] is a choice. [Shooting abortion doctors] promotes humane society.” No, this is not the logic liberals use (nor anyone else). -------- Learned hand, I was wondering what logic are you liberals using, that's all. You are saying that's not the one. Please tell us what is the logic and reasoning you are using to justify permanent interruption of unborn human life. Try simple I'm not a philosopher. You see, long time ago in East Europe there was a wise king who had bureaucrats to write the law and than king would invite simple peasant to hear the law and see if he can understand it. If it wasn't understood bureaucrats would have to rewrite the law.Think I am a peasant.Eugen
August 28, 2015
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To be clear, we are not leaving Eugen’s formulation behind. He made a point. You responded by changing the subject. I returned to that subject in the context of your response. His point was the assertion that liberals support abortion because it's a choice, and allowing choices promotes "humane society" in their/our eyes. I don't think I've changed the subject; I've only made the point, which seems entirely obvious to me, that no one actually supports all choice generally. Which is why Eugen's logic fails: if you swap "killing unborn babies" with "shooting abortion doctors," suddenly the formula falls apart. It matters what the choice actually is. (To be fair to Eugen, I doubt he meant his comment to be scrutinized so literally. But once I criticized it, I had to be denounced as dirty liberal dummy.) Can you provide any examples in which Planned Parenthood, in the context of asserting a woman’s right to choose, ever referred to the “legal limitations” of that right? Yes. Was that a serious question? Did you actually think it would be hard to find examples of PP acknowledging that there are legal limits on abortion? That's silly. http://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/abortion/ With one google I found a good example of PP asserting that "your state may require one or both of your parents to give permission for your abortion or be told of your decision prior to the abortion." Why?Learned Hand
August 28, 2015
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LH
To be clear, we’re leaving Eugen’s formulation behind, which is fine.
To be clear, we are not leaving Eugen's formulation behind. He made a point. You responded by changing the subject. I returned to that subject in the context of your response.StephenB
August 28, 2015
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LH
Generally I think they’re describing a woman’s right to choose an abortion, subject (depending on who’s speaking) to the legal limitations of that right.
Can you provide any examples in which Planned Parenthood, in the context of asserting a woman's right to choose, ever referred to the "legal limitations" of that right?StephenB
August 28, 2015
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Since 'Pro-Choice' really means to choose death over life, abortion is merely the original sin writ large in modern man i.e. The first couple chose death over life:
Genesis 2:17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die." Genesis 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
As well, Moses implored the Jewish people to 'choose life, so that you and your children may live'.
Deuteronomy 30:19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live,
How were the Jewish people to 'choose life' over death so that they and their children should live?
Deuteronomy 30:20 by loving the LORD your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him; for this is your life and the length of your days,
And to this day we find a pretty clear dividing line between those who choose life and those who choose death. The most vocal ones who are pro-abortion, (i.e. who choose death), are, for the most part, the ones who most vocally reject God and thus reject life, and the most vocal ones who oppose abortion, (i.e. who choose life), are, for the most part, the ones who most vocally accept God and thus accept life. Verse and music:
John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. CHOOSE LIFE [Big Tent Revival] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eX4fC4WFCIU
bornagain77
August 28, 2015
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