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Stolen Obligations: Why do atheists care about truth, reason or morality?

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Truth, rationality, and morality under naturalism, are irrelevant commodities, in and of themselves. The naturalist’s (atheistic materialist’s) concern with truth, reason and morality are stolen obligations – obligations that are not derivable from naturalism.

If minds are the computed product of physics, they output whatever they output.  There is no ideal form, perfection, or “truth” outside of what physics produces in any particular instance to compare what physics produces against.  Whatever any individual computation of physics outputs with the label “rational” attached is the natural limit of what can be termed “rational”.  There’s nothing the individual can compare it against; they are stuck with their own ruler and no means by which to check its length.  What is considered “true” can be both X and not-X.

Similarly, morality is just whatever physics says it is.  Like a computer programmed to output “3” when asked “what is 1 + 1”, the computer is not in error, it is simply producing the output determined by its program.  “3” is only an “error” if one assumes there is some standard outside of that program by which to judge it; under naturalism, there is not. If the physics ends up in some case saying it is moral to behead infidels, then it is moral in that case; if in some other case it says it is immoral to do so, then it is immoral in that case.  Under naturalism, what is moral can be both X and not-X; there is no absolute arbiter.

Under naturalism, truth, reason and morality are all relative, subjective commodities (being entirely mental phenomena), housed in a mind produced by forces unconcerned with truth, reason and morality, generated by a process only “concerned” with reproductive success.  At the very core, mind cannot be said to have anything whatsoever to do with reason, truth or morality; those are just titles we assign to various output as our particular individual physics commands as those physics pursue reproductive success.

Which brings up the question: why do atheists, materialists and naturalists care whether or not their arguments are rational? Why do they care if what others say is untrue?  Why are they concerned with appearing to be “moral” or to have moral cares and considerations? Why bother with any of that at all, considering that the basis of their existence is not assumed to be about any of those things, nor is their any intrinsic reason to care about them under their paradigm?

If life is fundamentally about reproductive success, what’s the point of caring about truth, reason or morality, per se?  I find it odd that under a paradigm where those things have no intrinsic or ultimate value in and of themselves, many atheists go to great lengths to demonstrate they are more moral, more rational, and more truthful than theists. Why? Who cares? Are there points being scored somewhere for being moral, truthful, or rational?

No, under atheism/materialism/naturalism, the only points being scored are for producing children, and statistics show that atheists produce less children than theists (something they are often proud of, strangely enough).  However, they don’t seem to have read the memo.  They still argue and act as if they have some kind of binding, necessary obligation to truth, reason, and morality.

Comments
Liz:
And how is “Our [God] says killing babies is wrong” any better? Will the Aztecs not simply retort “But our God likes us to kill babies”.
Sometimes, it seems as though you cannot help but miss the point. It is as though atheism and its subjectivity are such entrenched presuppositions that you are incapable of comprehending anything outside of that particular box. From that atheistic, subjective perspective, me saying, "Our God says killing babies is wrong," carries no weight whatsoever. It is meaningless. It is the warmed over vibration of particles arising from the firing of neurons at a particular location in spacetime that happens to correspond with a cranium that other firing neurons have arbitrarily chosen to label "mine." As such, additional neurons firing in other craniums resulting in particle vibrations that communicate, "But our God likes us to kill babies," carry exactly the same weight. On naturalism, how could it be otherwise? How could one firing neuron carry more weight than another? Other than might makes right, the only thing that could possibly give one the right to even judge another's behavior is the existence of some truth about right and wrong that is objective and transcendent. At the very least, theism allows for the possibility that the way we all act as though there is something objective and transcendent about truth is a reflection of a deeper reality and not merely a shared subjective illusion that may or may not continue to fool the masses.Phinehas
July 30, 2013
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Here we go round the mulberry bush! I didn't address your example, Mark, because it was rubbish. Your entire post was completely irrational, in fact. You, once again, abandoned reason itself rather than admit you are wrong. Truth is exclusively objective. If a subjective notion happens to be objectively true, that is thanks only to objectivity. For every subjective claim, there is an equally valid subjective denial of that claim. And no-one can judge between the two without appealing to the objective truth of the matter. Where there are no objective truths - as is the case with atheistic morality - then subjective notions and claims can offer no effective substitute. But, of course, you can never ever admit that here, let alone to yourself because then you would have to choose between atheism and morality. Let's be honest, you'd ditch atheism if you had to make that choice. And you do, Mark, you really do.Chris Doyle
July 30, 2013
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#165 Chris
And so it is, whenever Internet Atheists are forced to confront the fact that reason is not on their side, they simply ditch reason. Madness.
I notice you didn't address my example.Do you deny that is both subjective and has substance and weight?Mark Frank
July 30, 2013
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Pop goes the weasel!
There are any amount of issues which are not objective and yet have great substance and weight.
And so it is, whenever Internet Atheists are forced to confront the fact that reason is not on their side, they simply ditch reason. Madness. Lizzie already admitted that atheists have no reason to be moral towards people whose welfare they do not value. That is effectively an admission that atheistic morality fails. No rational, honest theist would make such a damning admission. So, the debate is over. And there is absolutely no point in discussing theistic morality with atheists: Internet Atheists have a pathological hatred of theistic morality. That is often the true reason why they embraced atheism in the first place! So, there is no light to be shed here, only the sort of tabloid-level comments that we see in 163.Chris Doyle
July 30, 2013
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11:37 AM
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Andre:
Dr Liddle, the man does not actually cause the avalanche, Avalanches are caused by; weather, snowfall, temperature, wind direction, snow pack conditions, slope angle, slope orientation, terrain, and vegetation.
OK, if you want to include both proximal and distal causes, then feel free to include the forces that raised the mountains, the events that led to the formation of a rocky planet round the sun, the events that led to the sun, and so back to Big Bang, and beyond, if you like. But in that case, what does this mean: "in this cause and effect universe we live in effects cannot be greater than their causes, its impossible"? How are you measuring the relative sizes of causes and effects?Elizabeth B Liddle
July 30, 2013
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11:29 AM
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And how is "Our says killing babies is wrong" any better? Will the Aztecs not simply retort "But our God likes us to kill babies".Elizabeth B Liddle
July 30, 2013
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The point is that if there is no objective truth about right or wrong, then trying to persuade others (or demonstrate to others) that they ought to change their way of life has no more substance or weight than trying to persuade them to eat chocolate ice cream instead of vanilla.
This is utter rubbish that gets repeated again and again on this forum. There are any amount of issues which are not objective and yet have great substance and weight. You are creating a false dichotomy between the objective and the trivial. It is a subjective decision whether to allow a new road, which would make life easier, to be built over beautiful countryside (let us imagine that everyone involved is genuinely striving to take into account everyone's wishes to take the moral element out of it). It has great weight and can involve evidence and reasoning but in the end the decision is subjective.Mark Frank
July 30, 2013
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Liz:
Phin: You have no warrant for telling the Aztecs or anyone else that their approach to life is somehow wrong. Or, if you do, you seem incapable of elucidating what it is.
Liz: I’m not claiming one. What I would do, if faced with a society of Aztecs, is to try to demonstrate to them that the sun will still rise even if they don’t sacrifice a human being; that the crops don’t depend on rituals, but on good agricultural practice; that superstition is useless. In other words, I’d substitute empirical science for religious superstition, and hope they got the message.
The question isn't about what you would do, but whether you would have any justification for your choices outside of personal preference.
Now, can you explain what your warrant is? How do you persuade an Aztec that s/he’s got the wrong God?
The issue isn't persuasion. The point is that if there is no objective truth about right or wrong, then trying to persuade others (or demonstrate to others) that they ought to change their way of life has no more substance or weight than trying to persuade them to eat chocolate ice cream instead of vanilla. On naturalism and its necessarily subjective opinions on ice cream and right and wrong, it is perfectly valid for the Aztecs to retort, "But I prefer vanilla and killing babies."Phinehas
July 30, 2013
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In #143 I said:
When I decided to become an atheist, I chose to believe in a god that comported with things I fundamentally knew to be true.
What I meant was that when I decided to become a theist again after I had been an atheist for a time, I chose to believe in a god that comported with things I fundamentally knew to be true.William J Murray
July 30, 2013
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EL, We agree that one feels obligated to one's own moral views. What I had in mind was distinctly human feeling that others are obligated to behave according to those same views. Generally speaking, theism seems able to provide a platform that makes sense of that feeling. I don't see where atheism can do the same. When you use terms like "good", "terrible" or "easy" it *appears* (I may be wrong) you rely on a standard(s) others should also observe, I think. For the record, I appreciate this dialogue as well. I may not grasp everything you're saying; in those instances I beg forgiveness. Consider it the effect of cholesterol build up in my arteries due to years of indulging in eclairs.lpadron
July 30, 2013
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And what is this god, that everyone would embrace, were they not deceiving themselves? You have said you are not a Christian. So which one did you settle on? Your own invention or a stolen concept?
God as the existential, necessary grounding of good, existence, rationality, morality, will; creator of the universe; omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent inasmuch as those qualities are possible without self-contradiction. You are using the term "stolen concept" incorrectly. If I use another person's concept, it's not "stolen" unless it cannot be justified under my premises.William J Murray
July 30, 2013
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Salmond. Not a chance. He makes other politicians seem like idealists.Axel
July 30, 2013
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And what is this god, that everyone would embrace, were they not deceiving themselves? You have said you are not a Christian. So which one did you settle on? Your own invention or a stolen concept?Alan Fox
July 30, 2013
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Dr Liddle, the man does not actually cause the avalanche, Avalanches are caused by; weather, snowfall, temperature, wind direction, snow pack conditions, slope angle, slope orientation, terrain, and vegetation. nice tryAndre
July 30, 2013
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So atheists in your view, don’t have a “moral compass” at all, just “subjective proclivities”.
You are once again apparently conflating "someone that calls themselves an atheist" with "someone living in a universe that has no god". In an atheistic universe, all that exists as morality are subjective proclivities - likes and dislikes, empathetic (to whatever degree) feelings, discomforts and pleasures, the personal desire to live peacefully or in drama or violence, the personal desire to help or harm others. However, if atheists live, arguendo, in a theistic universe, then of course they have a moral compass that is something far more than personal proclivities, even though they call themselves atheists.William J Murray
July 30, 2013
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What happens if someone uses exactly the same reasoning to conclude that the real God is the one that comports with their moral compass, and it differs from yours?
What happens is that you end up with different views. So? That doesn't change the fact that only theism can justify the moral experience I described (self-evidently true moral statements, absolutely true moral statements, capacity to understand them, moral obligations, etc.), and that all we can do is use our reason to the best of our ability to come to rational conclusions about what God must be like in order to justify what we experience. BTW, I think that all people would come to the same conclusions about god and morality, except that they are employing free will to deceive themselves otherwise.William J Murray
July 30, 2013
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No, Elizabeth. Your belief in Naturalism, a priori, disqualifies you from entertaining any moral sensitivity at all. You are constantly at the whim of the blind forces of Nature. And Mother Nature can be a bitch of the first water.Axel
July 30, 2013
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OK, that's what I've been trying to get from you.
Under atheism, “what is right” is a subjective proclivity – nothing more. One doesn’t have an obligation to indulge in a subjective proclivity.
So atheists in your view, don't have a "moral compass" at all, just "subjective proclivities". Right?Elizabeth B Liddle
July 30, 2013
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Sndre:
Dr Liddle, in this cause and effect universe we live in effects cannot be greater than their causes, its impossible.
A climber in the Alps takes a single step, and starts an avalanche that destroys a school, and kills a hundred children. Had he not done so, or done so half an hour earlier, which he would have done had he not stopped to admire the wildflowers, school would not have started, and no children would have died. Do you still think that effects cannot be greater than their causes?Elizabeth B Liddle
July 30, 2013
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If an atheist thinks something is right, then it makes no sense to add “but doesn’t think she has any obligation to do it”. Without obligation, what does “right” even mean?
You are, once again, stealing the theistic concept of a moral right and using it here. Under atheism, "what is right" is a subjective proclivity - nothing more. One doesn't have an obligation to indulge in a subjective proclivity. Under theism, "what is right" is not a subjective proclivity, it is an absolute obligation. Yes, under theism, "doing what is right" is an obligation, and it doesn't make sense to think of "what is right" without "an obligation to do it". You have no justification for using it that way under atheism.William J Murray
July 30, 2013
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Excellent post at 143, William, thank you. I have a lot of sympathy with it. Unfortunately, I think it has one huge flaw. What happens if someone uses exactly the same reasoning to conclude that the real God is the one that comports with their moral compass, and it differs from yours? Who has the right God? Or do you think all moral compasses are alike?Elizabeth B Liddle
July 30, 2013
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Dr Liddle, in this cause and effect universe we live in effects cannot be greater than their causes, its impossible.Andre
July 30, 2013
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Dr Liddle again morals can not evolve from non morals, major contradiction in the law of causality there. Effects can never be greater than their causes, being a scientist you know that.
No, I don't know that, Andre. Indeed I don't think it's true. I think tiny causes can have vast effects.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 30, 2013
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Axel
But you have confirmed that you have never, at least as an adult, and in any case, to the best of your recollection, nurtured an ongoing loving, bonding personal relationship with our personal God.
I never made it to True Scotsman status, eh? Well, I remain a True Scotswoman, nonetheless. Born in Edinburgh, raised in Kelso. How about you? Are you going to vote for Salmond?Elizabeth B Liddle
July 30, 2013
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Dr Liddle again morals can not evolve from non morals, major contradiction in the law of causality there. Effects can never be greater than their causes, being a scientist you know that.Andre
July 30, 2013
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So are you saying, William, that we should adopt “an interpretation of God” that is consistent with our own “moral compass”?
I'd start with an interpretation of God that is consistent with fundamental, self-evidently true moral statements, and inferences that necessarily follow that have to do both with moral principles and our capacity to know and understand them as they relate to our existence in the universe.
And that this God must exist, because otherwise we wouldn’t have a moral compass in the first place?
We must assume such a God exists, otherwise we cannot rationally account for our moral experience. IF there are self-evidently true, absolute moral statements that do not depend on evidence, argument, culture, society, authority or consensus, THEN under what worldview is such a thing possible? IF we are capable of accessing such absolutely true statements about the nature of existence, THEN under what worldview is such a thing possible? IF we know that might makes right is necessarily immoral, AND we know God must exist in order to justify our moral experience, THEN how can God exist AND morality not be a case of "might makes right", such as "by Divine decree or order"? How can morality not be arbitrary, but rather necessary? What kind of God must exist, and what must "good" be, for this to be the case? Etc. Now you know the general process by which I "invented" my interpretation of God. I personally rejected my interpretation of god on moral grounds. When I decided to become an atheist, I chose to believe in a god that comported with things I fundamentally knew to be true. One of those things was that "might makes right" cannot be, under any circumstances, a true moral statement. It is not right to bash children to death against rocks, or fly planes into buildings, regardless of whether or not "god says so". Which is why I believe in a god that cannot arbitrarily change what is right and wrong because what is good is an intrinsic, unalterable characteristic of what god is and is necessarily sewn into the fabric of, and the purpose of, everything god creates.William J Murray
July 30, 2013
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lpadron (I really appreciate this dialogue, by the way!):
But why should it matter to an atheist how others are affected merely because they’re of the same species? I think that this is exactly where theism very clearly offers an advantage: obligation.
It seems to me that any conclusions that some things are right and some things are wrong necessarily entails the concept of obligation. If an atheist thinks something is right, then it makes no sense to add "but doesn't think she has any obligation to do it". Without obligation, what does "right" even mean? So I don't think you can separate the two concepts, and I think this is where William is going wrong. If we are capable of deciding that some things are right and others wrong, then by definition we are capable conceiving that we are obliged to do some things and not do others. As for why we should think we are obliged to do somethings and not others - I think there are many reasons, ranging from more distal-self interest (if I do this unpleasant task for X, maybe X will do Y for me), to fellow-feeling (we tend to regard our kin as extensions of our selves, which probably evolved), to a rational appraisal of what makes the kind of society we want to live in, to sheer joy of seeing harm amelioriated and well-being promoted, to wanting to stay out of jail, to a generalised and idealised love of other people and indeed the world as a whole. Which some of us rationalise as "God", and others just leave raw.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 30, 2013
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' Axel at 106: Not content with shouting, you repeat the same shout. Ah well. As for the rest of your post, I entirely agree that an important aspect of religion is emotional, rather than intellectual. I also agree entirely, that the essence of Christianity (at least the Christianity I held) is Love. Not sure how you missed that in my post. I’ve always held that God is Love. I just discovered eventually, that that means that Love is God. So the God part is essentially redundant.' Well, Elizabeth, God is also a bit more than Love for to an enquiring mind. You should have become a Christian Scientist of Mary Baker Eddy provenance. But you have confirmed that you have never, at least as an adult, and in any case, to the best of your recollection, nurtured an ongoing loving, bonding personal relationship with our personal God. And that is crucial to a meaningful Christian faith. No wonder you can dispense with God, in favour of allegiance to a vague Love, reducible to the so-called Golden Rule.Axel
July 30, 2013
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Dr Liddle, a little harm can be a very good thing, think hot things burning.... there is nothing moral about doing or not doing harm. I'll say it again... love....Andre
July 30, 2013
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Joe, try and follow along. People invent morals like they invent gods.Alan Fox
July 30, 2013
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