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Stolen Obligations: Why do atheists care about truth, reason or morality?

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Truth, rationality, and morality under naturalism, are irrelevant commodities, in and of themselves. The naturalist’s (atheistic materialist’s) concern with truth, reason and morality are stolen obligations – obligations that are not derivable from naturalism.

If minds are the computed product of physics, they output whatever they output.  There is no ideal form, perfection, or “truth” outside of what physics produces in any particular instance to compare what physics produces against.  Whatever any individual computation of physics outputs with the label “rational” attached is the natural limit of what can be termed “rational”.  There’s nothing the individual can compare it against; they are stuck with their own ruler and no means by which to check its length.  What is considered “true” can be both X and not-X.

Similarly, morality is just whatever physics says it is.  Like a computer programmed to output “3” when asked “what is 1 + 1”, the computer is not in error, it is simply producing the output determined by its program.  “3” is only an “error” if one assumes there is some standard outside of that program by which to judge it; under naturalism, there is not. If the physics ends up in some case saying it is moral to behead infidels, then it is moral in that case; if in some other case it says it is immoral to do so, then it is immoral in that case.  Under naturalism, what is moral can be both X and not-X; there is no absolute arbiter.

Under naturalism, truth, reason and morality are all relative, subjective commodities (being entirely mental phenomena), housed in a mind produced by forces unconcerned with truth, reason and morality, generated by a process only “concerned” with reproductive success.  At the very core, mind cannot be said to have anything whatsoever to do with reason, truth or morality; those are just titles we assign to various output as our particular individual physics commands as those physics pursue reproductive success.

Which brings up the question: why do atheists, materialists and naturalists care whether or not their arguments are rational? Why do they care if what others say is untrue?  Why are they concerned with appearing to be “moral” or to have moral cares and considerations? Why bother with any of that at all, considering that the basis of their existence is not assumed to be about any of those things, nor is their any intrinsic reason to care about them under their paradigm?

If life is fundamentally about reproductive success, what’s the point of caring about truth, reason or morality, per se?  I find it odd that under a paradigm where those things have no intrinsic or ultimate value in and of themselves, many atheists go to great lengths to demonstrate they are more moral, more rational, and more truthful than theists. Why? Who cares? Are there points being scored somewhere for being moral, truthful, or rational?

No, under atheism/materialism/naturalism, the only points being scored are for producing children, and statistics show that atheists produce less children than theists (something they are often proud of, strangely enough).  However, they don’t seem to have read the memo.  They still argue and act as if they have some kind of binding, necessary obligation to truth, reason, and morality.

Comments
Axel:
It’s not the idea that without belief in God, there’s no reason to derive moral standards in the first place. It’s that materialism renders anything but amorally selfish forces from influencing our behaviour; indeed, from actually directing it; humans qua robots.
I think you have made a category error, here, Axel. Of course amoral forces influence our behaviour - our behaviour couldn't be moral otherwise; if we didn't take into account data like time-of-day or likelihood-of-rain, we'd make different moral decisions from the ones we do. But because our behavior is influenced by "amoral forces", and indeed is the direct result of many "amoral forces" working in our muscles and neurons, that doesn't mean we are amoral, any more than the fact that the Mona Lisa is made of artless paint molecules means that the Mona Lisa is not great art. Wholes have properties not shared by their parts, and to ascribe to a whole the properties of its parts it to commit the fallacy of composition. We are moral because we have the capacity to choose between courses of behaviour, some of which may suit us better than others, and some of which may suit others better than us. Our neurons can't do that, but we can.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 30, 2013
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EL, True enough; you're not claiming easy answers. But you are having a difficult time not assuming a standard of some kind. After all, "easy" implies a value of some sort, no? Perhaps you meant "easy" and in "not easy to think through". "I’m saying that there are perfectly good reasons why they should matter for an atheist, namely because we are a social species, and one person’s behaviour affects other members of the society of which we are a part." But why should it matter to an atheist how others are affected merely because they're of the same species? I think that this is exactly where theism very clearly offers an advantage: obligation.lpadron
July 30, 2013
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Elizabeth:
I don’t think a universe with laws requires a law-maker.
Then all you have to do is demonstrate that those laws can arise all on their own. Good luck with that.Joe
July 30, 2013
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William, it is apparent to me you are just making stuff up, where you are not stealing it.Alan Fox
July 30, 2013
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William, it is apparent to me you are just making stuff up, where you are not stealing it.Alan Fox
July 30, 2013
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Yes, William, of course the Golden Rule is a moral principle. What else could it be, chopped liver? It’s a rule that tells us how we ought behave. Ergo it is a moral principle. You might not think it’s a good one, but that’s what it is, nonetheless.
If the golden rule "is" a moral principle "because" it tells us how we ought behave, then "might makes right" is a moral principle, "harm everyone who doesn't agree with us" is a moral principle, and "torture children for personal pleasure" is a moral principle, because they tell us how we ought behave.
You can’t seem to decide on whether the problem with atheism is that we have no objective way of deciding which moral principles are good and which bad, or whether the problem is that we have no reason have any moral principles at all.
No, I've been very clear. You have no grounds that justify your stated views. You're stealing concepts and obligations that cannot be justified under atheism.William J Murray
July 30, 2013
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'It seems to me that the underlying issue that is finally being revealed here is not that theists have some hotline to objective moral standards denied to atheists who have no basis from which to derive them, but the idea that without belief in a God, there is no reason to derive moral standards in the first place. amirite?' Almost, Elizabeth. But, alas, a miss is as good as a mile. It's not the idea that without belief in God, there's no reason to derive moral standards in the first place. It's that materialism renders anything but amorally selfish forces from influencing our behaviour; indeed, from actually directing it; humans qua robots.Axel
July 30, 2013
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So are you saying, William, that we should adopt "an interpretation of God" that is consistent with our own "moral compass"? And that this God must exist, because otherwise we wouldn't have a moral compass in the first place? If not, what are you saying?Elizabeth B Liddle
July 30, 2013
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Indeed, one can use the moral state one finds themselves in and derive from that not only that theism is a necessary component of a justifying worldview, but can also derive from their experience of morality what kind of god must - and must not - exist. This is exactly what happens to many people as they abandon theism because they cannot reconcile their concept of God with the moral state they find themselves in, compared to what are supposed to be God's moral decrees and laws. They know those decrees and laws (or at least their interpretation thereof) are wrong, and so to be true to their moral compass (which they apparently hold, ironically, as absolute even in the face of God's supposed decrees otherwise), they deny God exists and (rightly, considering their interpretation) assert that such a god would be evil. The problem is that they have thrown the baby out with the bathwater; instead of throwing out their interpretation of God, they've thrown out the only justifiable basis they had for their devout commitment to moral principle in the first place. Without God and absolute morality, there is no sound reason to reject any view of god on moral grounds.William J Murray
July 30, 2013
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Jerry:
Natural law requires a creator who has made an ordered universe and there is tons of evidence beyond the natural law for that ordered universe.
I realise that you think this is a requirement. I don't. I don't think a universe with laws requires a law-maker. But we will have to agree to disagree on this.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 30, 2013
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Andre:
And that is the point our friends just don’t get, where does this sense of good and bad originate? From chemical reactions? Evo-devo?
Well, William says it is "innate". Yes, I think we have it because we evolved several essential capacities: to understand things from another's point of view (Theory of Mind capacity); to form symbolic mental models, including language; to foresee the long-term consequences of our actions, and thus be able to plan; and to form cultural communities in which knowledge could be passed down through and within generations.
if it is there is no good or evil there is just as Dawkins says pitiless indifference!
I don't think the idea that only good or evil can give rise to good or evil holds water. The universe may not mean anything but we do; the universe may not act either morally or immorally, but that does not mean we can't.
Come skeptics answer us how do you know that something is good or bad?
At it's simplest, I'd say that if causes harm it is bad.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 30, 2013
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But that plays into my hand, rather than yours, because most natural law arguments are that morality can be derived from nature, and is evidence for God, not the other way round
That is a stupid answer. It reveals more about the discussion than anything and the games played here. If it is evidence for a God, then I will not disagree with you but how that plays into your hand is beyond me. Natural law requires a creator who has made an ordered universe and there is tons of evidence beyond the natural law for that ordered universe. Natural law is just one of the way the creator has communicated with us. It takes on even more meaning when we can see just how the authorship actually took place through science. Why this way? There is a message in the way. Yes, it is not only another piece of the information for a creator but evidence of what that the creator wants to communicate to us. I think some of the people here would not be satisfied unless some booming voice came down once a week and told them what this weeks agenda is. I haven't got time for any more of this nonsense so I am oft to work for the day. Have fun with your games.jerry
July 30, 2013
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Yes, William, of course the Golden Rule is a moral principle. What else could it be, chopped liver? It's a rule that tells us how we ought behave. Ergo it is a moral principle. You might not think it's a good one, but that's what it is, nonetheless. You can't seem to decide on whether the problem with atheism is that we have no objective way of deciding which moral principles are good and which bad, or whether the problem is that we have no reason have any moral principles at all. If the first, I suggest that the same is true of theism. If the second, I suggest that there are many good reasons for having certain moral principles, including the Golden Rule, because certain moral principles, including the Golden Rule, tend to promote a society in which we all benefit. I also think that the idea that there are things we ought to do (i.e. the concept of morality) is a natural consequence of being able to foresee the the distal consequences of our actions, for both ourselves and others.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 30, 2013
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Andre and lpadron: I'm not the one claiming that there are easy answers to these questions. But at least we seem to have got to the stage of agreeing that "generic theism" doesn't offer any advantages. We seem to have moved on to the idea that for atheists, the question shouldn't even matter. I'm saying that there are perfectly good reasons why they should matter for an atheist, namely because we are a social species, and one person's behaviour affects other members of the society of which we are a part.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 30, 2013
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So, a lot more bluster from theists about why atheists are not entitled to moral principles, and have no grounds from which to derive them, and yet nobody has answered: How do you derive moral principles from theism??
You are using the term "derive from" as if one must first have a theistic structure and then, after that, figure out what is moral. That is not how others use the term "derive from" in this kind of argument (about what first principles justify one's beleifs). We find ourselves innately imbued with moral principles and statements that are in some cases self-evidently, absolutely true, and also imbued with the capacity to reason form those true statements conditional and general moral principles. Then, once we have accepted that this is the state we find ourselves in, we must ask: what worldview comports with this state? From what worldview can we logically derive the conditions of this state which we find ourselves in? You've reversed the order where our attempt at "deriving" comes from. In this case, theism is not used to generate our morality, it is used to rationally justify why we experience it the way we do.
I have attempted so show that the Golden Rule, which is a moral principle, emerges from our need, as social animals, to live in a peaceful productive society. People have disagreed that such a principle emerges.
Once again, the problem lies in your justification for saying the Golden Rule "is" a moral principle. For everyone, whether they believe it and accept it or not? If someone disagrees and believes otherwise, are they wrong about what morality "is", or is their subjective view simply outvoted and ruled out by the consensus? Is the Golden Rule a self-evidently true moral statement that is valid whether there is consensus agreement or not, without any proof whatsoever? But, atheists have no worldview-justified right to self-evidently true moral statements. At best, they have a right to consensus, subjectively true moral statements, which allows any behavior to be called "moral". So, to say that the Golden Rule "is" a moral principle is to apply a Clinton-esque obfuscation of what "is" means. If the Golden Rule "is" a moral principle, it is a moral principle whether you agree with it or not, which means that it absolutely true, and necessarily true even if the consensus disagrees. Only if a moral principle "is" true (in the objective sense) can one have an obligation to it; one does not have obligations to subjective views that depend on consensus. Or, perhaps you would argue that one has an obligation to agree with consensus morality? That means anyone disagreeing with the consensus is being immoral - which I doubt you would agree with.William J Murray
July 30, 2013
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What are you measuring “terrible” and “good” against?
And that is the point our friends just don't get, where does this sense of good and bad originate? From chemical reactions? Evo-devo? if it is there is no good or evil there is just as Dawkins says pitiless indifference! Come skeptics answer us how do you know that something is good or bad?Andre
July 30, 2013
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EL, You wrote: "If so, then I suggest there are plenty of reasons to derive moral standards that have nothing to do with whether or not there is a God. Some of them will be terrible, and some will be good, but at least we have established that that’s not the point." What are you measuring "terrible" and "good" against?lpadron
July 30, 2013
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Alan Fox I'll give you one simple example of its objectivity to this world.... Qur'an Allah place the mountains on the earth to act like tent pegs so it will not shake.... Bible God made the mountains rise up....Andre
July 30, 2013
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Dr Liddle Well how do you know that what they did was wrong in the first place? Please don't give me the peaceful society solution, Inca's thought it peaceful to sacrifice humans so the idea on what society dictates does not work, just 60 years ago the Germans thought it was a good idea to exterminate the Jews to create peace. What society dictates is purely subjective and changes from generation to generation, just have a look at woman's rights in your lifetime alone. Who's to say it changes again tomorrow and woman's rights get acknowledged as the source of what's wrong in society what then?Andre
July 30, 2013
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Merely pointing out the bible is no more objective than, say, the Koran.Alan Fox
July 30, 2013
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jerry:
I answered it above. In it I downplayed the “natural law” mainly that to get in to a discussion of it would take a zillion pixels and I do not feel comfortable being the one to do so.
Do you mean 112? I do not see how you derive a moral law from the bible. It contains laws, certainly, but how do you decide on which (many are contradictory), and indeed on which scripture - why the bible, not any other book? Natural law is interesting, so thanks for that answer. But that plays into my hand, rather than yours, because most natural law arguments are that morality can be derived from nature, and is evidence for God, not the other way round.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 30, 2013
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WJM:
Because it’s a red herring. One’s sense of what is right and wrong is not sequentially “derived from” their theistic structure; it’s innate. The ability to rationally infer moral principles from self-evident truth is not sequentially “derived from” theistic structure; it’s innate.
Right. So it doesn't matter what you believe, you can still figure out moral principles, right?
Atheism does not rationally comport with the concepts of “moral obligation”, “objective morality”, “self-evident truths”, or even reason as an objective arbiter.
You keep asserting this but do not justify it. It actually directly contradicts what you just said. If we can figure out what is right and wrong without a belief in God, then what is the distinction between doing that, and figuring out we are "morally obligated" to do and what we are "morally obligated" not to do? What would "right" and "wrong" even mean in the absence of moral obligation?Elizabeth B Liddle
July 30, 2013
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People wrote the Bible.
What does that have to with anything? It does not mean they are the author of the content as much as a secretary is the author of the dictation taken. If you want to argue over the authenticity then that is a different issue.jerry
July 30, 2013
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@ William Innate =/= objectiveAlan Fox
July 30, 2013
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@ Jerry in 112: People wrote the Bible.Alan Fox
July 30, 2013
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What is far more “ironical”, Axel, is that no-one will answer it.
I answered it above. In it I downplayed the "natural law" mainly that to get in to a discussion of it would take a zillion pixels and I do not feel comfortable being the one to do so.jerry
July 30, 2013
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How do you derive moral principles from theism?
I suggest you look into something called the "natural law" and the bible. But I think a lot of people such as Thomas Aquinas have been there before you.jerry
July 30, 2013
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Axel at 106: Not content with shouting, you repeat the same shout. Ah well. As for the rest of your post, I entirely agree that an important aspect of religion is emotional, rather than intellectual. I also agree entirely, that the essence of Christianity (at least the Christianity I held) is Love. Not sure how you missed that in my post. I've always held that God is Love. I just discovered eventually, that that means that Love is God. So the God part is essentially redundant.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 30, 2013
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What is far more “ironical”, Axel, is that no-one will answer it.
Because it's a red herring. One's sense of what is right and wrong is not sequentially "derived from" their theistic structure; it's innate. The ability to rationally infer moral principles from self-evident truth is not sequentially "derived from" theistic structure; it's innate. One must deny self-evident moral truth, and willfully abandon reason, to reach a "conclusion" that "torturing children for fun" is not always, universally, objectively, absolutely immoral. Nobody is claiming otherwise. The argument is if a worldview premise allows the existence of self-evidently true moral statements, moral obligations and the capacity to reason to objective moral principles when they are not obvious. Your worldview must include first principles that rationally comport with your beliefs. Atheism does not rationally comport with the concepts of "moral obligation", "objective morality", "self-evident truths", or even reason as an objective arbiter.William J Murray
July 30, 2013
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‘If you can’t tell whether your moral tenets are true or not, why is your problem “immeasurable” less than some putative person who doesn’t think the question makes a great deal of sense in the first place?’ Is there no-one who can explain to you the meaning of the term, ‘a priori’? No-one at all?
You try, Axel. I know what I mean by the term, but I can make no sense of your usage.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 30, 2013
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