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Stolen Obligations: Why do atheists care about truth, reason or morality?

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Truth, rationality, and morality under naturalism, are irrelevant commodities, in and of themselves. The naturalist’s (atheistic materialist’s) concern with truth, reason and morality are stolen obligations – obligations that are not derivable from naturalism.

If minds are the computed product of physics, they output whatever they output.  There is no ideal form, perfection, or “truth” outside of what physics produces in any particular instance to compare what physics produces against.  Whatever any individual computation of physics outputs with the label “rational” attached is the natural limit of what can be termed “rational”.  There’s nothing the individual can compare it against; they are stuck with their own ruler and no means by which to check its length.  What is considered “true” can be both X and not-X.

Similarly, morality is just whatever physics says it is.  Like a computer programmed to output “3” when asked “what is 1 + 1”, the computer is not in error, it is simply producing the output determined by its program.  “3” is only an “error” if one assumes there is some standard outside of that program by which to judge it; under naturalism, there is not. If the physics ends up in some case saying it is moral to behead infidels, then it is moral in that case; if in some other case it says it is immoral to do so, then it is immoral in that case.  Under naturalism, what is moral can be both X and not-X; there is no absolute arbiter.

Under naturalism, truth, reason and morality are all relative, subjective commodities (being entirely mental phenomena), housed in a mind produced by forces unconcerned with truth, reason and morality, generated by a process only “concerned” with reproductive success.  At the very core, mind cannot be said to have anything whatsoever to do with reason, truth or morality; those are just titles we assign to various output as our particular individual physics commands as those physics pursue reproductive success.

Which brings up the question: why do atheists, materialists and naturalists care whether or not their arguments are rational? Why do they care if what others say is untrue?  Why are they concerned with appearing to be “moral” or to have moral cares and considerations? Why bother with any of that at all, considering that the basis of their existence is not assumed to be about any of those things, nor is their any intrinsic reason to care about them under their paradigm?

If life is fundamentally about reproductive success, what’s the point of caring about truth, reason or morality, per se?  I find it odd that under a paradigm where those things have no intrinsic or ultimate value in and of themselves, many atheists go to great lengths to demonstrate they are more moral, more rational, and more truthful than theists. Why? Who cares? Are there points being scored somewhere for being moral, truthful, or rational?

No, under atheism/materialism/naturalism, the only points being scored are for producing children, and statistics show that atheists produce less children than theists (something they are often proud of, strangely enough).  However, they don’t seem to have read the memo.  They still argue and act as if they have some kind of binding, necessary obligation to truth, reason, and morality.

Comments
He starts from what he considers a “self-evident” moral truth (that torturing babies for pleasure is wrong).
That has nothing to do with naturalism. Naturalism is a failed philosophy. You cannot derive anything from it. BTW one can eat a chocolate eclair and still become thinnerJoe
July 29, 2013
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lpadron @42 It doesn't, reliably, but at least naturalists don't pretend that total objectivity is possible - that the way we discover things is by finding out what works, independently, and comparing notes. And if many different people and societies conclude that the moral system that produces a productive and peaceful society is one based on reciprocal altruism with penalties for cheaters, then we can at least conclude that it's something that can be independently arrived at, which is as good as objectivity gets, I'd say, given the fallibility of human understanding and measurement systems. And it's significant, I think, that the Golden Rule has emerged so often as the fundamental moral principle, from many different cultures. And also, signficant, I think, that it underlies most legal systems in democratic states. lpadron @ 45:
1. In what way did William derive moral principles from naturalism?
He starts from what he considers a "self-evident" moral truth (that torturing babies for pleasure is wrong). I see no reason why you have to be a theist to find this "self-evident", and he doesn't invoke it. He only invokes theism to explain why you would pay any attention to this self-evident moral truth (because you'd worry about the "necessary consequences" of violating it).
2. How does one derive the principles that genocide and sexual slavery are wrong from naturalism?
In exactly the same way as William finds torturing babies for pleasure self-evidently wrong. The worrying thing is that at least some theists (WLC, famously) don't find it so - they find that although it seems wrong and would normally be wrong, it is actually morally obligatory if God commands it So far from theism adding to the precept, it can undermine it. However, I don't hold that against William, because he has designed the God he believes in in such a way that it doesn't command self-evidently wrong actions. Which is fine. But in that sense he has "borrowed" God from self-evident (i.e. evident to anyone, not just theists) moral truths, rather than deriving those truths from a given God.
3. How does one explain the obligatory nature of moral codes given a purely physical universe? For example, you seem to argue that we not only can’t derive morality from a watcher but that we shouldn’t as well. Given atheism how does the obligation built into “shouldn’t” arise in a physical universe?
Because of conflicts between what we want for ourselves, immediately, and what we want, for the future, for ourselves and others. Once a being is capable of seeing and valuing both the immediate and more remote consequences of a choice, then, when one conflicts with the other, the need for a word, or concept, such as "ought" will become necessary: I want this chocolate eclair, but I want to be thinner, so I ought not to eat it; I want this chocolate eclair, but I also want to make my children happy, so ought to spend the money on a packet of chocolate biscuits to take home.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 29, 2013
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EL @ 42, "My claim is that attempting to define “good” as “what God commands” does not lead to objective morality, because it depends on a subjective interpretation of “what God commands”." How does deriving moral principles from naturalism avoid the problem of subjective interpretation?lpadron
July 29, 2013
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EL @ #38: 1. In what way did William derive moral principles from naturalism? 2. How does one derive the principles that genocide and sexual slavery are wrong from naturalism? 3. How does one explain the obligatory nature of moral codes given a purely physical universe? For example, you seem to argue that we not only can't derive morality from a watcher but that we shouldn't as well. Given atheism how does the obligation built into "shouldn't" arise in a physical universe?lpadron
July 29, 2013
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jerry:
If this is true, then mankind has a horrible track record.
We do indeed. And I'd say that that record is at its worst when people have acted in the belief that what they do is justified by some higher goal, whether that higher end is the will of some god, or some utopian ideal on earth.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 29, 2013
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I think Peter S Williams’ version of the moral argument, at the 8:40 minute mark, is very impressive as to being very well thought out and nuanced, in the following video,, Peter S. Williams vs Christopher Norris – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=wWhkJZw4inY#t=398sbornagain77
July 29, 2013
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No, BA77 - this atheist, anyway, is not trying "to claim that God, as He is portrayed in the Old Testament, is morally evil" (although I think this is true). My claim is that attempting to define "good" as "what God commands" does not lead to objective morality, because it depends on a subjective interpretation of "what God commands". At best, we ascribe to a good God those attributes that we deem to be good, not the other way round. At worst we claim Divine authority for deeds that most of us would agree were evil, whether it's the alleged genocide of the Canaanites, or 9/11.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 29, 2013
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Religion is a fine way of reifying what we have already figured out is good; it’s a terrible way of doing the figuring.
If this is true, then mankind has a horrible track record.jerry
July 29, 2013
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Peter J Williams on New Atheists & Old Testament (incl. The Canaanites) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulCbh_1SlwEbornagain77
July 29, 2013
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Many times atheists, even though they cannot ground objective morality within their worldview, will try to claim that God, as He is portrayed in the Old Testament, is morally evil. In fact Richard Dawkins, in his cowardly refusal to debate William Lane Craig, upon Craig's tour of the UK in the fall of 2011, said he would not debate Craig because Craig supported genocide/infanticide in the Bible. This tactic, to try to cover his cowardice to debate Craig, backfired terribly for Dawkins! Richard Dawkins Approves Infanticide, not William Lane Craig! (mirror: drcraigvideos) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmodkyJvhFo (Is God a Moral Monster?) New Atheists and the Old Testament God - Jeremiah Johnston - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JNwXxHOzP8bornagain77
July 29, 2013
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In this post, William derives moral principles from naturalism, steals them, invents a God to justify them, and then accuses naturalists of stealing them back. I don't call that "intellectually honest" at all, and I'm fed up of people like William calling atheists dishonest if they are moral, and immoral if they are not. You cannot derive morality from theism - all you can "derive" is a set of putative incentives to behave morally. Indeed any morality that declares that what is good is what God wants is, in my view, morally bankrupt, as William Lane Craig demonstrates. What kind of "morality" is it, that declares genocide and sexual slavery "good" simply because God commanded it? It's not even Christian - Jesus had the sense to realise that we are all capable of figuring out what is good (bread, not stone, fish, not snake, for our hungry children; pull the donkey out of the well whether it's the Sabbath or not; "by their fruits you shall know them"), and in so doing recognising God, not the other way round. Religion is a fine way of reifying what we have already figured out is good; it's a terrible way of doing the figuring. If some people need the threat of eternal damnation, or the reward of eternal bliss, or karma, or "necessary consequences" to do the right thing - fine. Even cardboard cutouts of policemen tend to reduce crime, and we all tend to be a little more circumspect in our behaviour if we think we are being watched. But we can't derive a morality that way - it simply drives us to do what we think the watcher requires, not what we think is right. And all too often, what we are told the Watcher requires is wrong. Mark Twain's Huck Finn had it right. Sometimes saving a friend is worth going to hell for.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 29, 2013
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William,
They’re intellectual cowards, clinging to the teat of theism and living high and safe off of its product, while screeching out mindless, anti-authoritarian condemnation, unwilling to go off the reservation to see what’s really waiting for them out in the wilds of their own worldview.
Wow, very nicely stated! In other words, they are hypocrites.Querius
July 28, 2013
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bornagain77,
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference. Richard Dawkins
I wonder whether Dawkins personally aspires to this description, attaining a sort of atheist nirvana without any illusions of morality. Or maybe . . . - He elevates a Darwinistic ideal, the survival and evolution of life on Earth, as his ultimate morality. - He takes an anthropological perspective to consider pragmatic community values to ensure harmony and the perpetuation of humanity as his ultimate morality. - He's adopted a more selfish view that enhances his fame and book sales. Any ideas?Querius
July 28, 2013
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William Lane Craig. He's the guy that says genocide is moral if God commands it. Don't think I will be seeking moral guidance from him....5for
July 28, 2013
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Podcast : In this Reasonable Faith Podcast, Dr. William Lane Craig responds to CNN's interview of Frans de Waal, director of Emory University's Living Links Center at the Yerkes National Primate Research Center in Lawrenceville, Georgia. He recently published a book entitled "The Bonobo and the Atheist: In Search of Humanism Among the Primates." http://www.reasonablefaith.org/mediaf/podcasts/uploads/RF_Do_Animals_Display_Morality_2013.mp3 article: Do Animals Display Morality? A Reasonable Faith http://truthbomb.blogspot.com/2013/07/do-animals-display-morality-reasonable.htmlbornagain77
July 28, 2013
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Darwinists, naturalists, atheists - there are a few historical philosophers I respect that didn't shy away from the ramifications of their worldview, even though that worldview tends to drive serious philosophers mad. When I was an atheist, I was at least intellectually honest about it. These atheists stay safe on the conceptual reservation of theism, stealing concepts and obligations while condemning that which actually produces them. They're intellectual cowards, clinging to the teat of theism and living high and safe off of its product, while screeching out mindless, anti-authoritarian condemnation, unwilling to go off the reservation to see what's really waiting for them out in the wilds of their own worldview. Cue Jack Nicholson: "You want the truth? You can't handle the truth!" And so we get treated to Rube Goldberg compatibalisms and post-modernist, self-refuting blather.William J Murray
July 28, 2013
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OT: podcast - William Lane Craig Critiques "The Unbelievers" Movie http://truthbomb.blogspot.com/2013/07/mp3-audio-william-lane-craig-critiques.htmlbornagain77
July 28, 2013
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I doubt that. I have seen very little that Darwinism explains.
I agree. Darwinism, which is largely an appeal to chance (especially in light of SCordova's "neutral mutation, non-selection" expose, doesn't explain what occurs; it just allows for it to occur. By chance. Appealing to chance is not an explanation; it's the abandonment of explanation.William J Murray
July 28, 2013
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Paul Raubiczak, a professor of philosophy, mentions some of the effects of evolutionary thinking upon mankind: “Evolution has been made the basis of a complete philosophy. . . . In fact the philosophy based on Darwinism has exercised an extremely strong influence, far beyond the realms of science and philosophy upon the whole development of European thought. The ruthless life and death struggle for survival has been translated into a new morality, as ruthless competition in a capitalist, as ruthless warfare in the communist world, and as ruthless nationalism everywhere.” The philosopher, Friedrich Nietzsche [1844–1900], was most notably known for his vehement attacks on Christianity and for his “God is Dead” philosophy. He had also developed a philosophy of heredity from Darwin’s postulate of evolution that the fittest for survival dominate the species. In Existentialism — For and Against Paul Raubiczak, professor of philosophy at Cambridge University, observes: He [Nietzsche] continually demands the breeding of a new master race and the prohibition for its sake of the reproduction of all the “discontented, the rancorous, and the grudging,” the sterilization of criminals and “the annihilation of millions of misfits.” The spectre of the Nazi gas chambers looms behind such statements. . . We must not forget that it is not only Nietzsche’s philosophy, but also the theory of evolution which leads to such consequences." How is it that evolution accounts for "survival of the fittest" in nature and in human philosophy while simultaneously causing people to behave in an altruistic manner? You obviously can't have both.Barb
July 28, 2013
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of note: The Descent of Darwin – Pastor Joe Boot – (The Theodicy of Darwinism) – article http://www.ezrainstitute.ca/ezrainstitute_ca/bank/pageimages/jubilee_2010_spring.pdfbornagain77
July 28, 2013
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Darwinism explains it very well
I doubt that. I have seen very little that Darwinism explains. One would have to show which proteins are affecting the behavior, why these proteins are being expressed in the particular species and not others and then explain how these proteins were created and selected for. That is a minimum to be able to say Darwinism explains it. There is a wide range of animal behavior in the world. Right now what do we mean by altruistic behavior in animals? For bonobos from Wikipedia
Primatologist Frans de Waal states bonobos are capable of altruism, compassion, empathy, kindness, patience, and sensitivity, and described "bonobo society" as a "gynecocracy". However, some have disputed how peaceful bonobos are.
We would need to examine what are supposed to be altruistic acts. I have seen all sorts of animal behavior that would classify as all of the attributes that de Waal says are part of bonobo behavior. Most of us have seen photos shared on the internet with cats taking care of mice, a dog feeding a kitten, a lion and a lamb that are buddies or other unusual combinations of animal behavior.jerry
July 28, 2013
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That’s not the point I was making. The point is, if theism is true why do non-human animals have moral codes?
You haven't shown that they do. You've only pointed at some animal behavior and have made the unwarranted leap that because an animal may at times behave like a moral human would, that it is in fact acting morally.William J Murray
July 28, 2013
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5for, it's not an accusation. It is a fact! The only question is to whether you are being purposely dishonest or whether you are actually gullible enough to believe the falsehood you have put forth as to altruistic (selfless) behavior being compatible with Darwinian evolution. Moreover, being the helpful, altruistic, guy I am :) , I suggest if you really want to make your argument for atheism/Darwinism more plausible, then you need stick to the traditional argument from theodicy of Darwinists, as to what God would and would not allow in the world in regards to evil, not in regards to altruism. You can appeal much readily to emotion instead of logic in that fashion and thus have a better chance of making atheism seem rational to the uniformed! Notes: “The strength of materialism is that it obviates the problem of evil altogether. God need not be reconciled with evil, because neither exists. Therefore the problem of evil is no problem at all.,,, And of course since there is no evil, the materialist must, ironically, not use evil to justify atheism. The problem of evil presupposes the existence of an objective evil-the very thing the materialist seems to deny. The argument (from Theodicy) that led to materialism is exhausted just when it is needed most. In other words, the problem of evil is only generated by the prior claims that evil exists. One cannot then conclude, with Dawkins, that there is ‘no evil and no good’ in the universe.,,, The fact that evolution’s acceptance hinges on a theological position would, for many, be enough to expel it from science. But evolution’s reliance on metaphysics is not its worst failing. Evolution’s real problem is not its metaphysics but its denial of its metaphysics.,,, Cornelius Hunter – Darwin’s God – pg. 154 & 159 Charles Darwin, Theologian: Major New Article on Darwin's Use of Theology in the Origin of Species - May 2011 http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/05/charles_darwin_theologian_majo046391.html The Descent of Darwin - Pastor Joe Boot - (The Theodicy of Darwinism) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKJqk7xF4-g The role of theology in current evolutionary reasoning - Paul A. Nelson - Biology and Philosophy, 1996, Volume 11, Number 4, Pages 493-517 Excerpt: Evolutionists have long contended that the organic world falls short of what one might expect from an omnipotent and benevolent creator. Yet many of the same scientists who argue theologically for evolution are committed to the philosophical doctrine of methodological naturalism, which maintains that theology has no place in science. Furthermore, the arguments themselves are problematical, employing concepts that cannot perform the work required of them, or resting on unsupported conjectures about suboptimality. Evolutionary theorists should reconsider both the arguments and the influence of Darwinian theological metaphysics on their understanding of evolution. http://www.springerlink.com/content/n3n5415037038134/?MUD=MP Dr. Seuss Biology | Origins with Dr. Paul A. Nelson - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVx42Izp1ek The Microbial Engines That Drive Earth’s Biogeochemical Cycles - Falkowski 2008 Excerpt: Microbial life can easily live without us; we, however, cannot survive without the global catalysis and environmental transformations it provides. - Paul G. Falkowski - Professor Geological Sciences - Rutgers http://www.genetics.iastate.edu/delong1.pdf NIH Human Microbiome Project defines normal bacterial makeup of the body – June 13, 2012 Excerpt: Microbes inhabit just about every part of the human body, living on the skin, in the gut, and up the nose. Sometimes they cause sickness, but most of the time, microorganisms live in harmony with their human hosts, providing vital functions essential for human survival. http://www.nih.gov/news/health/jun2012/nhgri-13.htm We are living in a bacterial world, and it's impacting us more than previously thought - February 15, 2013 Excerpt: We often associate bacteria with disease-causing "germs" or pathogens, and bacteria are responsible for many diseases, such as tuberculosis, bubonic plague, and MRSA infections. But bacteria do many good things, too, and the recent research underlines the fact that animal life would not be the same without them.,,, I am,, convinced that the number of beneficial microbes, even very necessary microbes, is much, much greater than the number of pathogens." http://phys.org/news/2013-02-bacterial-world-impacting-previously-thought.html#ajTabs Why Do We Invoke Darwinism? Excerpt: Further, Darwinian explanations for such things are often too supple: Natural selection makes humans self-centered and aggressive – except when it makes them altruistic and peaceable. Or natural selection produces virile men who eagerly spread their seed – except when it prefers men who are faithful protectors and providers. When an explanation is so supple that it can explain any behavior, it is difficult to test it experimentally, much less use it as a catalyst for scientific discovery. Darwinian evolution – whatever its other virtues – does not provide a fruitful heuristic in experimental biology. Philip S. Skell - (the late) Emeritus Evan Pugh Professor at Pennsylvania State University, and a member of the National Academy of Sciences. Letter: Adam Sedgwick to Charles Darwin - 24 Nov 1859 Excerpt: There is a moral or metaphysical part of nature as well as a physical. A man who denies this is deep in the mire of folly.,, http://www.darwinproject.ac.uk/entry-2548bornagain77
July 28, 2013
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Your #11, Jerry. You are naive in the extreme. Much learning doth make thee mad. Your neoliberal pals have brought the world to the brink of an unparalleled economic catastrophe and you have the brass b*lls to peddle their mendacious tripe! On the other hand, Bertrand Russell said that after arguing with Keynes he always felt a little stupid; and Galbraith was as towering a genius as Friedman was a cretinous jackanapes. Whoever can't see the truth of the matter, mustn't want to see it, it is that simple. Try meditating on extreme polarisation of the nations' wealth, as promoted by the Chicago boys, through casting fathomless greed as the sovereign economic virtue, maintaining that, left unfettered by the least moral consideration, it would lead to ever-growing wealth for the masses. If that were so, India would have been a super-power centuries ago.Axel
July 28, 2013
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Barb, those are just unsupported assertions. You have no idea whether, for example, other animals contemplate their own mortality.
And you have absolute proof of this? Oh, wait. You don't.Barb
July 28, 2013
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BA, I hope it makes you feel better to accuse me of dishonesty.5for
July 28, 2013
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5for, you make an unsupported claim: "Darwinism explains it (altruism) very well," Survival of the fittest does not explain altruism very well at all. In fact it is antithetical to the survival of the fittest mantra. For you to deny this is any problem at all for Darwinism reveals that you could care less for the truth of the matter and are only interested promoting your false materialistic/atheistic worldview.bornagain77
July 28, 2013
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Barb, those are just unsupported assertions. You have no idea whether, for example, other animals contemplate their own mortality.5for
July 28, 2013
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5for, animals operated primarily by instinct. They do not plot elaborate revenge against other animals, nor do they contemplate their own morality. Non-human animals have behavior that we might label altruistic or moral, but that doesn't mean its on par with human behavior. You stated it yourself: they "seem to have a moral basis." Seem to have =/= actually does have.Barb
July 28, 2013
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BA, Darwinism explains it very well, but what has that got to do with anything? My point is that if the urge to act in a moral way comes from god why do other animals have similar urges? I guess maybe they have their own animal gods telling them to do it....5for
July 28, 2013
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