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The amazing level of engineering in the transition to the vertebrate proteome: a global analysis

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As a follow-up to my previous post:

I am presenting here some results obtained by a general application, expanded to the whole human proteome, of the procedure already introduced in that post.

Main assumptions.

The aim of the procedure is to measure a well defined equivalent of functional information in proteins: the information that is conserved throughout long evolutionary times, in a well specified evolutionary line.

The simple assumption is that  such information, which is not modified by neutral variation in a time span of hundreds of million years, is certainly highly functionally constrained, and is therefore a very good empirical approximation of the value of functional information in a protein.

In particular, I will use the proteins in the human proteome as “probes” to measure the information that is conserved from different evolutionary timepoints.

The assumption here is very simple. Let’s say that the line that includes humans (let’s call it A) splits from some different line (let’s call it B) at some evolutionary timepoint T. Then, the homology that we observe in a protein when we compare organisms derived from B  and humans (derived from A) must have survived neutral variation throughout the timespan from T to now. If the timespan is long enough, we can very safely assume that the measured homology is a measure of some specific functional information conserved from the time of the split to now.

Procedure.

I downloaded a list of the basic human proteome (in FASTA form). In particular, I downloaded it from UNIPROT selecting all human reviewed sequences, for a total of 20171 sequences. That is a good approximation of the basic human  proteome as known at present.

I used NCBI’s blast tool in local form to blast the whole human proteome against known protein sequences from specific groups of organisms, using the nr (non redundant) NCBI database of protein sequences, and selecting, for each human protein, the alignment with the highest homology bitscore from that group of organisms.

Homology values:

I have used two different measures of homology for each protein alignment:

  1. The total bitscore from the BLAST alignment (from now on: “bits”)
  2. The ratio of the total bitscore to the length in aminoacids of the human protein, that I have called “bits per aminoacid” (from now on, “baa”). This is a measure of the mean “density” of functional information in that protein, which corrects for the protein length.

The values of homology in bits have a very wide range of variation  in each specific comparison with a group of organisms. For example, in the comparison between human proteins and the proteins in cartilaginous fish, the range of bit homology per protein is 21.6 – 34368, with a mean of 541.4 and a median of 376 bits.

The vlaues of homology in baa , instead, are necessarily confined between 0 and about 2.2. 2.2, indeed, is (approximately) the highest homology bitscore (per aminoacid) that we get when we blast a protein against itself (total identity).  I use the BLAST bitscore because it is a widely used and accepted way to measure homology and to derive probabilities from it (the E values).

So, for example, in the same human – cartilaginous fish comparison, the range of the baa values is:  0.012 – 2.126, with a mean of 0.95 and a median of 0.97 baas.

For each comparison, a small number of proteins (usually about 1-2%) did not result in any significant alignment, and were not included in the specific analysis for that comparison.

Organism categories and split times:

The analysis includes the following groups of organisms:

  • Cnidaria
  • Cephalopoda (as a representative sample of Mollusca, and more in general Protostomia: cephalopoda and more generally Mollusca, are, among Protostomia, a group with highest homology to deuterostomia, and therefore can be a good sample to evaluate conservation from the protostomia – deuterostomia split).
  • Deuterostomia (excluding vertebrates): this includes echinoderms, hemichordates and chordates (excluding vertebrates).
  • Cartilaginous fish
  • Bony fish
  • Amphibians
  • Crocodylia, including crocodiles and alligators (as a representative sample of reptiles, excluding birds. Here again, crocodylia have usually the highest homology with human proteins among reptiles, together maybe with turtles).
  • Marsupials (an infraclass of mammals representing Metatheria, a clade which split early enough from the human lineage)
  • Afrotheria, including elephants and other groups (representing a group of mammals relatively distant from the human lineage, in the Eutheria clade)

There are reasons for these choices, but I will not discuss them in detail for the moment. The main purpose is always to detect the functional information (in form of homology) that was present at specific split times, and has been therefore conserved in both lines after the split. In a couple of cases (Protostomia, Reptiles), I have used a smaller group (Cephalopoda, Crocodylia) which could reasonably represent the wider group, because using very big groups of sequences (like all protostomia, for example) was too time consuming for my resources.

So what are the split times we are considering? This is a very difficult question, because split times are not well known, and very often you can get very different values for them from different sources. Moreover, I am not at all an expert of these issues.

So, the best I can do is to give here some reasonable proposal, from what I have found, but I am completely open to any suggestions to improve my judgements. In each split, humans derive from the second line:

  • Cnidaria – Bilateria. Let’s say at least 555 My ago.
  • Protostomia – deuterostomia.  Let’s say about 530 My ago.
  • Pre-vertebrate deuterostomia (including chordates like cephalocordata and Tunicates) – Vertebrates  (Cartilaginous fish). Let’s say 440 My ago.
  • Cartilaginous fish – Bony fish. Let’s say about 410 My ago.
  • Bony fish – Tetrapods (Amphibians). Let’s say 370 My ago, more or less.
  • Amphibians – Amniota (Sauropsida, Crocodylia): about 340 My ago
  • Sauropsida (Crocodylia) – Synapsida (Metatheria, Marsupialia): about 310 My ago
  • Metatheria – Eutheria (Afrotheria): about 150 My ago
  • Atlantogenata (Afrotheria) – Boreoeutheria: probably about 100 My ago.

The simple rule is: for each split, the second member of each split is the line to humans, and the human conserved information present in the first member of each couple must have been conserved in both lines at least from the time of the split to present day.

So, for example, the human-conserved information in Cnidaria has been conserved for at least 555 MY, the human-conserved information in Crocodylia has been conserved for at least 310 My, and so on.

The problem of redundancy (repeated information).

However, there is an important problem that requires attention. Not all the information in the human proteome is unique, in the sense of “present only once”. Many sequences, especially domains, are repeated many times, in more or less similar way, in many different proteins. Let’s call this “the problem of redundancy”.

So, all the results that we obtain about homologies of the human proteome to some other organism or group of organisms should be corrected for that factor, if we want to draw conclusions about the real amount of new functional information in a transition. Of course, repeated information will inflate the apparent amount of new functional information.

Therefore, I computed a “coefficient of correction for redundancy” for each protein in the human proteome. For the moment, for the sake of simplicity, I will not go into the details of that computation, but I am ready to discuss it in depth if anyone is interested.

The interesting result is that the mean coefficient of correction is, according to my computations, 0.497. IOWs, we can say that about half of the potential information present in the human proteome can be considered unique, while about half can be considered as repeated information. This correction takes into account, for each protein in the human proteome, the number of proteins in the human proteome that have significant homologies to that protein and their mean homology.

So, when I give the results “corrected for redundancy” what I mean is that the homology values for each protein have been corrected multiplying them for the coefficient of that specific protein. Of course, in general, the results will be approximately halved.

Results

Table 1 shows the means of the values of total homology (bitscore) with human proteins in bits and in bits per aminoacid for the various groups of organisms.

 

Group of organisms Homology bitscore

(mean)

Total homology

bitscore

Bits per aminoacid

(mean)

Cnidaria 276.9 5465491 0.543
Cephalopoda 275.6 5324040 0.530
Deuterostomia (non vertebrates) 357.6 7041769 0.671
Cartilaginous fish 541.4 10773387 0.949
Bony fish 601.5 11853443 1.064
Amphibians 630.4 12479403 1.107
Crocodylia 706.2 13910052 1.217
Marsupialia 777.5 15515530 1.354
Afrotheria 936.2 18751656 1.629
Maximum possible value (for identity) 24905793 2.2

 

Figure 1 shows a plot of the mean bits-per-aminoacid score in the various groups of organisms, according to the mentioned approximate times of split.

Figure 2 shows a plot of the density distribution of human-conserved functional information in the various groups of organisms.

 

 

 

The jump to vertebrates.

Now, let’s see how big are the informational jumps for each split, always in relation to human conserved information.

The following table sums up the size of each jump:

 

 

 

 

Split Homology bitscore jump (mean) Total homology bitscore jump Bits per aminoacid (mean)
Homology bits in Cnidaria 5465491 0.54
Cnidaria – Bilateria (cephalopoda) -6.3 -121252 -0.02
Protostomia (Cephalopoda)- Deuterostomia 87.9 1685550 0.15
Deuterostomia (non vert.) – Vertebrates (Cartilaginous fish) 189.6 3708977 0.29
Cartilaginous fish-Bony fish 54.9 1073964 0.11
Bony fish-Tetrapoda (Amphibians) 31.9 624344 0.05
Amphibians-Amniota (Crocodylia) 73.3 1430963 0.11
Sauropsida (Crocodylia)-Synapsida (Marsupialia) 80.8 1585361 0.15
Metatheria (Marsupialia) – Eutheria (Afrotheria) 162.2 3226932 0.28
Total bits of homology in Afrotheria 18751656 1.63
Total bits of maximum information in  humans 24905793 2.20

 

The same jumps are shown graphically in Figure 3:

 

As everyone can see, each of these splits, except the first one (Cnidaria-Bilateria) is characterized by a very relevant informational jumps in terms of human-conserved information. The split is in general of the order of 0.5 – 1.5 million bits.

However, two splits are characterized by a much bigger jump: the prevertebrate-vertebrate split reaches 3.7 million bits, while the Methateria-Eutheria split is very near, with 3.2 million bits.

For the moment I will discuss only the prevertebrate-vertebrate jump.

This is where a great part of the functional information present in humans seems to have been generated: 3.7 million bits, and about 0.29 bits per aminoacid of new functional information.

Let’s see that jump also in terms of information density, looking again at Figure 2, but only with the first 4 groups of organisms:

 

Where is the jump here?

 

We can see that the density distribution is almost identical for Cnidaria and Cephalopoda. Deuterostomia (non vertebrates) have a definite gain in human-conserved information, as we know, it is about 1.68 million bits, and it corresponds to the grey area (and, obviously, to the lower peak of low-homology proteins).

But the real big jump is in vertebrates (cartilaginous fish). The pink area and the lower peak in the low homology zone correspond to the amazing acquisition of about 3.7 million bits of human-conserved functional information.

That means that a significant percentage of proteins in cartilaginous fish had a high homology, higher than 1 bit per aminoacid, with the corresponding human protein. Indeed, that is true for 9574 proteins out of 19898, 48.12% of the proteome. For comparison, these high homology proteins are “only” 4459 out of 19689,  22.65% of the proteome in pre-vertebrates.

So, in the transition from pre-vertebrates to vertebrates, the following amazing events took place:

  • About 3,7 million bits of human-conserved functional information were generated
  • A mean increase of about 190 bits per proteins of that information took place
  • The number of high human homology proteins more than doubled

Correcting for redundancy

However, we must still correct for redundancy if we want to know how much really new functional information was generated in the transition to vertebrates. As I have explained, we should expect that about half of the total information can be considered unique information.

Making the correction for each single protein, the final result is that the total number of new unique functional bits that appear for the first time in the transition to vertebrates, and are then conserved up to humans, is:

1,764,427  bits

IOWs, more than 1.7 million bits of unique new human-conserved functional information are generated in the proteome with the transition to vertebrates.

But what does 1.7 million bits really mean?

I would like to remind that we are dealing with exponential values here. A functional complexity of 1.7 million bits means a probability (in a random search) of:

1:2^1.7 million

A quite amazing number indeed!

Just remember that Dembski’s Universal Probability Bound is 500 bits, a complexity of 2^500. Our number (2^1764427) is so much bigger that the UPB seems almost a joke, in comparison.

Moreover, this huge modification in the proteome seems to be strongly constrained and definitely necessary for the new vertebrate bodily system, so much so that it is conserved for hundreds of millions of years after its appearance.

Well, that is enough for the moment. The analysis tools I have presented here can be used for many other interesting purposes, for example to compare the evolutionary history of proteins or groups of proteins. But that will probably be the object of further posts.

Comments
bill cole: I have commented many times on the Szostak paper, and each time I seem to awaken the rage of some darwinist. Your objections are perfectly right, but IMO the main, huge bias in that paper is the following: They use artificial selection after induced random variation to get the result. Therefore the protein that they analyze was not in the original random repertory, but is the result of protein engineering, IOWs of design The sequences in the original random repertory exhibited just a weak affinity for ATP. While the authors are ready to label that as a biological function, the simple truth is that such a "function" is completely irrelevant in a cell context. In particular, it could never confer a reproductive advantage, and be selected by NS. Of course, it can instead be selected by artificial selection, because artificial selection can select any level, however low, of detectable function. And that's exactly what they did. They selected a weak and irrelevant affinity for ATP and generated, by a process of trivial protein engineering, an artificial protein (that is not the sequence present in the original repertory) with a much stronger affinity for ATP and some basic folding. Therefore, the number of 1/10^11 for proteins of 80 AA means absolutely nothing for the darwinian scenario. No naturally selectable function is present in that kind of repertory. Of course, we can find in it any kind of weak biochemical affinities, and enhance them by artificial selection. IOWs, the only meaning of Szostak's paper is that bottom up protein engineering, if performed by a good biochemist, can work. But there is more. Even the engineered protein, the one with strong affinity for ATP, is definitely not naturally selectable. If added to a cellular context, it only reduces fitness, as shown by a later experiment. The reason is very simple: just binding ATP is of no use in a cell context, it can only subtract precious ATP to the enviromnment. Sometimes darwinists seem to forget that not any function is good in a cell environment. Many "functions" are simply useless, or detrimental. Well, now let's wait for the rage, again! :)gpuccio
March 24, 2017
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Gpuccio Yes the Szostak paper is often cited. This is to bind to ATP and the number is 1/10^11 for proteins of 80 AA. My argument has been. -binding one small molecule is trivial compared to living proteins that have to bind to multiple proteins, such as nuclear proteins. -even if Szostak numbers are accurate how do you build a spliceosome, which is the bacteria to yeast transition with 200 proteins even if Szostak's numbers are right? Thoughts?bill cole
March 24, 2017
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GP: I hear you. The moment you move toward publishing in a journal, I think politics would become the primary concern rather than science. That's a sad commentary on the state of scientific journals, but there you go.Phinehas
March 24, 2017
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Eric Anderson: One important consideration (but not the only one) is that I want to be able to show this results as an explicit support to the theory of ID, and in no other way. That's why I have done the work, that is its purpose and motivation. My only aim is to support in some way the scientific case for ID. Do you really think that any traditional scientific journal would accept such an approach?gpuccio
March 24, 2017
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Eric Anderson: There are many reasons why I don't want to engage in trying to publish this kind of personal results in a traditional scientific journal. Moreover, I am not sure that any journal would publish the results after they have been published online on this blog. :) I wondered about that problem too, and my decision was to go this way. The results are here. They are public. I am available to any discussion, proposals, future analysis, and whatever. For the moment, that's what I want to achieve. Thank you for your kind suggestion, however. It is always satisfying to get interest and feedback for our work! :)gpuccio
March 24, 2017
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I agree with Armand Jacks. Definitely a lot of work here and well worth publishing. I know it is a pain in the neck and can take months of tedious back-and-forth and waiting (at least with a traditional journal), but it might be something worth seriously considering.Eric Anderson
March 24, 2017
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gpuccio @54:
there is much more specific function in the proteome than is usually believed.
Excellent! Can't wait to see more.
[...] our general understanding of protein function will rapidly increase. And many darwinist myths will be demolished and destroyed in that process.
Great! They ain't seen nothing' yet. :) Thanks. BTW, where are the politely-dissenting interlocutors now? What about the loud voices that claim this site lacks scientific flavor? It can't get more scientific than this thread. Did they run out of serious arguments? :)Dionisio
March 24, 2017
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Dionisio: "It’s like modifying object classes in order to boost their capabilities when doing object-oriented software development." That's exactly what I think. For many proteins, some basic biochemical function can remain similar, and is usually implemented by more conserved domains. But "the interface" of the object often requires important adjustments in different context (species, groups of organisms, phyla). That interface can be implemented by changes in less conserved domains, or even in parts of the molecule that do not exhibit obvious domain structure, including intrinsically disordered parts. Transcription factors are a good example: the DNA binding domain is usually the most conserved part of the molecule. But TFs do not simply interact with DNA: they interact with one another, often in complex cumulative structures, and with other molecules and biochemical pathways. That part, the "regulatory" part, that in the end determines what the TF bound to DNA will do, is much less understood, and often less conserved, probably because it is functionally tweaked to different final functions. "We both seem to agree that the Delta(x) includes other important concepts, but I wanted to confirm that the protein information jumps are a required ingredient of the Delta(x)." Yes, of course they are. I believe that part of the regulatory procedures (but only part of them) is implemented through functional modifications of the proteome itself, especially in its less understood parts. "A high cuisine chef requires the right ingredients for his recipes. The designer requires the right components and tools in order to implement the design." Absolutely! One of the main observations that I would do starting from the data I have presented here is: there is much more specific function in the proteome than is usually believed. "We see different proteins involved in the morphogen gradient formation and interpretation processes. Also see different proteins involved in the innate and the adaptive immune system." Those are very good examples of what we have said before. :) "It would be very interesting to review them all from your informational perspective in light of their functions in the given contexts. As more discoveries are made in the wet and dry labs, more questions get answered but new questions are raised. Perhaps some of those issues deal with novel proteins or previously unobserved protein functionality." It is, definitely, very interesting. I am already doing that. And I am very confident that our general understanding of protein function will rapidly increase. And many darwinist myths will be demolished and destroyed in that process. "I look forward to seeing more of this kind of articles written by you here." They will come...gpuccio
March 24, 2017
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Dionisio: "Crocodylia?" Corrected. :)gpuccio
March 24, 2017
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gpuccio @48:
I am the first to be amazed.
Join the club! :)Dionisio
March 24, 2017
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Minor misspelling (swapped letters): 'or' 'ro' Cor... Cro... Sauropsida (Corcodylia) – Synapsida (Metatheria, Marsupialia): about 310 My ago Crocodylia?Dionisio
March 24, 2017
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gpuccio @47:
Of course the functional engineering of the proteome is only the tip of the iceberg.
I consider that "tip of the iceberg" a very important part of the spatiotemporal changes included within the whole developmental Delta(x). It's like modifying object classes in order to boost their capabilities when doing object-oriented software development. That's one of the reasons why I like the thorough research you're doing on the discussed topic. I just wanted to confirm the association of the protein information jumps with the Delta(x) component of the above mentioned Dev(x) equations. We both seem to agree that the Delta(x) includes other important concepts, but I wanted to confirm that the protein information jumps are a required ingredient of the Delta(x). A high cuisine chef requires the right ingredients for his recipes. The designer requires the right components and tools in order to implement the design. We see different proteins involved in the morphogen gradient formation and interpretation processes. Also see different proteins involved in the innate and the adaptive immune system. It would be very interesting to review them all from your informational perspective in light of their functions in the given contexts. As more discoveries are made in the wet and dry labs, more questions get answered but new questions are raised. Perhaps some of those issues deal with novel proteins or previously unobserved protein functionality. Your thorough informational analysis should provide very helpful illustration of the given situations, thus facilitating the understanding of the whole picture. I look forward to seeing more of this kind of articles written by you here.Dionisio
March 24, 2017
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es58: "this is an interesting discussion anyone volunteer to provide cliff notes?" I don't know... But you are certainly welcome to ask about any aspect of the discussion, and I will be happy to answer. :)gpuccio
March 23, 2017
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Origenes (to bill cole): "In that case you will be very impressed by those massive information jumps." Well, I certainly am! :) When the final numbers started to come for the whole proteome, I was really impressed. Millions of functional bits! I am the first to be amazed. :)gpuccio
March 23, 2017
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Dionisio: "basically the protein information jumps would have to be the result of some of the changes included within the given Delta(x) (referenced @35), which includes other changes (eg. GRN, etc.) besides the protein information jumps. Delta(x) is the description of all the spatiotemporal changes needed to convert Dev(ca) to Dev(d1) or Dev(d2) in the problem described @35." Well, you are certainly right about that! Of course the functional engineering of the proteome is only the tip of the iceberg. A lot of other, major functional changes are certainly needed, and they are probably even more important, and they almost certainly imply even more new functional information, probably a lot more. You well know that I am focusing on the proteome only for methodological reasons! :)gpuccio
March 23, 2017
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bill cole: The "large functional space argument" is just a myth, supported only by no logical or empirical evidence, just simple propaganda like the many times discussd Szostak paper. of course, it is the extrema ratio of darwinist to give some mythical credibility to their anti-empirical theory. A lot of empirical evidence, from tthe presenc of 2000+ protein superfamilies to Axe's experiments to Hayashi's rugged landscape paper, confirm that the prtoein functional space is extremely small and not connected at all. The simple problem is: should we follow ideological dogma or empirical evidence? However, this is certainly one issue that can and will be definitely solved as our understanding of protein function increases, as it will. But I suppose that then darwinists will invent some other myth...gpuccio
March 23, 2017
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gpuccio @36: basically the protein information jumps would have to be the result of some of the changes included within the given Delta(x) (referenced @35), which includes other changes (eg. GRN, etc.) besides the protein information jumps. Delta(x) is the description of all the spatiotemporal changes needed to convert Dev(ca) to Dev(d1) or Dev(d2) in the problem described @35.Dionisio
March 23, 2017
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this is an interesting discussion anyone volunteer to provide cliff notes?es58
March 23, 2017
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Origenes
I do not see how this has any impact on GPuccio’s argument. His argument is very clear and straightforward. As of yet I do not see any weaknesses and hence no wiggle room.
The counter argument I see form the evolutionists including Dr Swamidass is the large functional space argument. I don't personally think it is credible but they are using it. The issue would be that what we see historically from comparative homologous genes is only some of the potentially functional space. To test this you would have to change sequences in the animal and see if they work which is certainly not practical. If I am wrong here please correct me. I am simply trying to understand the arguments. How would we show that the large functional space is an invalid argument?bill cole
March 23, 2017
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Bill Cole @41
They are always wiggling :) I think GP’s argument is almost certainly correct. There is always the large functional space argument (sequence space is large but functional space is also large) ...
I do not see how this has any impact on GPuccio's argument. His argument is very clear and straightforward. As of yet I do not see any weaknesses and hence no wiggle room.
GP makes some great points but I see evolution as being much slower then people think due to DNA repair.
In that case you will be very impressed by those massive information jumps.Origenes
March 23, 2017
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Origenes
To be clear, Bill. Do you envision any wiggle room for Darwinists to not accept GPuccio’s assumption?
They are always wiggling :-) I think GP's argument is almost certainly correct. There is always the large functional space argument(sequence space is large but functional space is also large) and I am looking to see how solid Kirks argument is and at this point my understanding needs improving. How are you sure the sequences have explored all the functional space? GP makes some great points but I see evolution as being much slower then people think due to DNA repair. The cells seem to be designed to minimize variation or else how would a human under go 1 trillion cell divisions during development and be born successfully. So the ultimate proof of design may be that cells are not built to evolve. DNA repair keeps them in a very tight range. Every new genome maybe a custom design. Building life on earth was no easy job :-)bill cole
March 23, 2017
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Upright BiPed: I looked quickly at the Swadimass paper. It appears that they are using "non-functional" proteins to make the comparison of sequences (MISA) while searching for FI values. Here's the problem: "non-functional" proteins are regular protein sequences in which a "nonsense mutation" has occurred. This brings about a "stop codon" somewhere in the sequence. The RNA editing process simply discards this "non-functional" strand in vivo. So, we're an amino acid away from a "functional" sequence by definition. Well, the authors say FI is zero--which it is--and then say the 'distance' between 'function' and 'non-function' is very, very narrow; hence, evolution is possible. If I've understood them rightly, it appears they're not doing science. I wouldn't spend any time at all on the paper until they address this issue. BTW, I searched for "non-functional" and found three instances. NOWHERE in their 'article' do they bother to define what it is, how it comes about, etc. So, are they ill-informed and honest, or well-informed and dishonest? I don't know.PaV
March 23, 2017
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Wow GP ... I am just now stumbling back in, and I find much more to consider. Thank You for the extra responses.Upright BiPed
March 23, 2017
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Armand Jacks: I use R.gpuccio
March 23, 2017
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Gpucio@33, suit yourself, but I think it would be a very good way to receive constructive criticism rather than being sniped at. Submitting to a peer review is a great way to get free advice from experts in the field. Besides, I think that you might be happily surprised at the outcome. As long as you are willing to listen to the reviewers suggestions. As well, what software did you use to create the kernel density plots or did you build them from scratch. I ask because you use them as part of my work and I am relying on an excel macro I found in line. It works but it is cumbersome.Armand Jacks
March 23, 2017
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Dionisio: Wow! That is a question! I'll think about it! :)gpuccio
March 23, 2017
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gpuccio, can the information jumps be associated with the Delta(x) shown next?
Given any case of known evolutionary divergence, it could be described as: Dev(d1) = Dev(ca) + Delta(d1) Dev(d2) = Dev(ca) + Delta(d2) Where Dev(x) is the developmental process of any given biological system x Delta(x) is the whole set of spatiotemporal procedural differences required to produce Dev(x). d1 and d2 are two descendants of their common ancestor (ca). Assuming the Dev(x) are well known, what hypothetical Delta(d1) and Delta(d2) could be suggested for the following cases? Case 1: d1 = placental mammals; d2 = marsupials; Case 2: d1 = placental; d2 = monotreme; Case 3: d1 = cats; d2 = dogs; (use LUCA for ca) Just point to the literature that explains this in details. The explanation must be comprehensive, logically coherent and it must hold water under any kind of thorough examination.
Are you aware of any fully documented real example that illustrates the above Evo-Devo description?Dionisio
March 23, 2017
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timothya @30
Do you have any evidence of the structure and function of the proteins present at the time that these ancient lifeforms existed?
Do you think that proteins can be extracted from those fossils?
And any evidence to support the contention that the divergence of those lifeforms could not have occurred by evolutionary processes?
What part of the ‘information jump’ did you not understand?
Certainly the analysis of modern proteins might give us some insight into what may have existed at the time, but to try to derive a likelihood measure from the modern proteosome is, well, “zombie science”.
Are you suggesting that the protein sequences of all these distinct organisms became more and more similar (‘modern’) over time? And are you suggesting that this homology is not due to common descent?Origenes
March 23, 2017
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Armand Jacks: "A lot of work obviously went into this." Yes. "Have you though about drafting this as a research paper and submitting it to a peer reviewed paper?" Yes. But I prefer it this way.gpuccio
March 23, 2017
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timothya: What I am analyzing are modern proteins, but as the split between the two lineages happened about 410 million years ago, we can only infer that the homology we observe today was present at that time in the common ancestor of the two lineages. That idea is absolutely derived from some simple assumptions which are at the base itself of darwinism, so I can't see how any darwinist can deny it. And I don't see any "zombie science" in that.gpuccio
March 23, 2017
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