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The highly engineered transition to vertebrates: an example of functional information analysis

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In the recent thread “That’s gotta hurt” Bill Cole states:

I think over the next few years 3 other origins (my note: together with OOL), will start to be recognized as equally hard to explain:

  • The origin of eukaryotic cell: difficult to explain the origin of the spliceosome, the nuclear pore complex and chromosome structure.
  • The origin of multicellular life: difficult to explain the origin of the ability to build complex body plans.
  • The origin of man: difficult to explain the origin of language and complex thought.

That thought is perfectly correct. There are, in natural history, a few fundamental transitions which scream design more that anything else. I want to be clear: I stick to my often expressed opinion that each single new complex protein is enough to infer design. But it is equally true that some crucial points in the devlopment of life on earth certainly stand out as major engineering events. So, let’s sum up a few of them:

  1. OOL
  2. The prokaryote – eukaryote transition (IOWs, eukaryogenesis)
  3. The origin of metazoa (multicellular life)
  4. The diversification of the basic phyla and body planes (IOWs, the Cambrian explosion)

Well, to those 4 examples, I would like to add the diversification of all major clades and subphyla.

Of course, another fundamental transition is the one to homo sapiens, but I will not deal with it here: I fully agree with Bill Cole that it is an amazing event under all points of view, but it is also true that it presents some very specific problems, which make it a little bit different from all the other transitions we have considered above.

I will state now in advance the point that I am trying to make here: each of the transitions described requires tons and tons of new, original, highly specific functional information. Therefore, each of those transitions commands an extremely strong inference to design. I will deal in particular with the transition to the subphylum of vertebrates, for a series of reasons: being vertebrates, we are naturally specially interested in that transition; there are a lot of fully sequenced genomes and proteomes of vertebrate species ;  and a lot is known about vertebrate biology. IOWs, we have a lot of data that can help us in our reasoning. So, I will  try to fix a few basic points which will be the foundation of our analysis:

  • a) The basic phylum is Chordates, which are characterized by the presence of a notochord. Chordates include three different clades: Craniata, Tunicata, Cephalochordata.
  • b) Vertebrates are a subphylum of the phylum Chordates, and in particular of the clade Craniata. They represent the vast majority of Chordates, with  about 64,000 species described. As the name suggests, they are characterized by the presence of a vertebral column, either cartilaginous or bony, which replaces the notochord.
  • c) The phylum Chordate, like other phyla, can be traced at least to the Cambrian explosion (540 million years ago).
  • d) Chordates which are not vertebrates are quite rare today. They include:
    • 1) Craniata: the only craniates which are not vertebrates are in the class Myxini (hagfish), whose classification however remains somewhat controversial. All other craniates are vertebrates.
    • 2) Tunicata (or urochordata): about 3000 species, the best known and studied is Ciona intestinalis.
    • 3) Cephalochordata: about 30 species of Lancelets.
  • e) The phyla most closely related to Chordates are Hemichordates (like the Acorn worm) and Echinoderms (Starfish, Sea urchins, Sea cucumbers).
  • f) Vertebrates can be divided into the following two groups:
    • 1) Fishes: 3 Classes:
      • 1a) Jawless  (lampreys)
      • 1b)  Cartilaginous (sharks, rays, chimaeras)
      • 1c) Bony fish
    • 2) Tetrapods: all the rest (frogs, snakes, birds, mammals)

For the following analysis, I will consider vertebrates versus everything which preceded them (all metazoa, including “pre-chordates” (Hemichordates and Echinoderms) and “early chordates”  (Tunicata and Cephalochordata). So, everything which is new in vertebrates had to appear in the window between early chordates and the first vertebrates: cartilaginous fish and bony fish (I will not refer to lampreys, because the data are rather scarce). So, let’s try to define the temporal window, for what it is possible:

  • Chordates are already present at the Cambrian explosion, 540 my ago.
  • Jawless fish appeared slightly later (about 530 my ago), but they are mostly extinct.
  • The split of jawless fish into cartilaginous fish and bony fish can be traced about at 450 my ago

Therefore, with all the caution that is required, we can say that the information which can be found in both cartilaginous fish and bony fish, but not in non vertebrates (including early chordates), must have been generated in a window of less that 100 my, say between 540 my ago and 450 my ago. Now, my point is very simple: we can safely state that in that window of less than 100 million years a lot of new complex functional information was generated. Really a lot. To begin our reasoning, we can say that vertebrates are characterized by the remarkable development of two major relational systems:

  1. The adaptive immune system, which appears for the first time exactly in vertebrates.
  2. The nervous system, which is obviously well represented in all metazoa, but certainly reaches new important adaptations in vertebrates.

Much can be said about the adaptive immune system, and that will probably be the object of a future OP. For the moment, however, I will discuss some aspects linked to the development of the nervous system. The only point that is important here is that the nervous system of vertebrates undergoes many important modifications, especially a process of encephalization.  My interest is mainly in the developmental controls that are involved in the realization of the new body plans and structures linked to those processes. Of course, we don’t understand how those regulations are achieved. But today we know much about some molecules, especially regulatory proteins, which have an important role in the embryonal development of the vertebrate nervous system, and in particular in the development and migration of neurons, which is obviously the foundation for the achievement of the final structure and function of the nervous system. So, I will link here a recent paper which deals with some important knowledge about the process of neuron migration. I invite all those interested to read it carefully: Sticky situations: recent advances in control of cell adhesion during neuronal migration by David J. Solecki Here is the abstract:

The migration of neurons along glial fibers from a germinal zone (GZ) to their final laminar positions is essential for morphogenesis of the developing brain, aberrations in this process are linked to profound neurodevelopmental and cognitive disorders. During this critical morphogenic movement, neurons must navigate complex migration paths, propelling their cell bodies through the dense cellular environment of the developing nervous system to their final destinations. It is not understood how neurons can successfully migrate along their glial guides through the myriad processes and cell bodies of neighboring neurons. Although much progress has been made in understanding the substrates (14), guidance mechanisms (57), cytoskeletal elements (810), and post-translational modifications (1113) required for neuronal migration, we have yet to elucidate how neurons regulate their cellular interactions and adhesive specificity to follow the appropriate migratory pathways. Here I will examine recent developments in our understanding of the mechanisms controlling neuronal cell adhesion and how these mechanisms interact with crucial neurodevelopmental events, such as GZ exit, migration pathway selection, multipolar-to-radial transition, and final lamination.

In brief, the author reviews what is known about the process of neuronal cell adhesion and migration. Starting from that paper and some other material, I have chosen a group of six regulatory proteins which seem to have an important role in the above process. They are rather long and complex proteins, particularly good for an information analysis. Here is the list. I give first the name of the protein, and then the length and accession number in Uniprot for the human protein:

  • Astrotactin 1,     1302 AAs,     O14525
  • Astrotactin 2,    1339 AAs,     O75129
  • BRNP1 (BMP/retinoic acid-inducible neural-specific protein 1),     761 AAs,     O60477
  • Cadherin 2 (CADH2),      906 AAs,    P19022
  • Integrin alpha-V,    1048 AAs,      P06756
  • Neural cell adhesion molecule 1 (NCAM1),   858 AAs,  P13591

This is a  very interesting bunch of molecules:

  • Astrotactin 1 and 2 are two partially related perforin-like proteins. ASTN-1 is a membrane protein which is directly responsible for the formation of neuron–glial fibre contacts. ASTN2 is not a neuron-glial adhesion molecule, but it functions in cerebellar granule neuron (CGN)-glial junction formation by forming a complex with ASTN1 to regulate ASTN1 cell surface recruitment. More about these very interesting proteins can be found in the following paper:

Structure of astrotactin-2: a conserved vertebrate-specific and perforin-like membrane protein involved in neuronal development by Tao Ni, Karl Harlos, and Robert Gilbert

  • BRNP1 is another  protein which functions in neural cell migration and guidance
  • Cadherin 2, or N-cadherin, is active in many neuronal funtions and in other tissues, and seems to have a crucial role in glial-guided migration of neurons
  • Integrin alpha-V, or Vitronectin receptor, is one of the 18 alpha subunits of integrins in mammals. Integrins are transmembrane receptors that are the bridges for cell-cell and cell-extracellular matrix (ECM) interactions.
  • NCAM1 is a cell adhesion molecule involved in neuron-neuron adhesion, neurite fasciculation, outgrowth of neurites

Now, why have I chosen these six proteins, and what do they have in common? They have two important things in common:

  • They are all big regulatory proteins, and they are all involved in a similar regulatory network which controls endocytosis, cell adhesion and cell migration in neurons, and therefore is in part responsible for the correct development of the vertebrate nervous system
  • All those six proteins present a very big informarion jump between pre-vertebrate organisms and the first vertebrates

The evolutionary history of those six protein is summarized in the following graph, realized as usual by computing the best homology bit score with the human protein in different groups of organisms.

Neuron_migration

Very briefly, all the six human molecules have low homology with pre-vertebrates, while they already show a very high homology  in cartilaginous fishes. The most striking example is probably Astrotactin 2, which presents the biggest jump from cephalochordata (329 bits) to cartilaginous fishes (1860 bits), for a great total of 1531 bits of jump! The range of individual jumps in the group is 745 – 1531 bits, with a mean jump of 1046 bits per molecule and a total jump of 6275 bits for all six molecules. The jump has always been computed as the difference between the best bit score in cartilaginous fishes and the best bitscore in all pre-vertebrate metazoa. We can also observe that the first three proteins have really low homology with everything up to tunicates, but show a definite increase in Cephalochordata, which precedes the big jump in cartilaginous fishes, while the other three molecules have a rather constant behaviour in all pre-vertebrate metazoa, with a few hundred bits of homology, before “jumping” up in sharks. One could ask: is that a common behaviour of all proteins? The answer is no. Look at the following graph, which shows the same evolutionary history for two other proteins, both of them very big regulatory proteins, both of them implied in the same processes as the previous six.

Neuron_migration2

Here, the behaviour is completely different. While there is a slight increase of homology in time, with a few smaller “jumps”, there is nothing comparable to the thousand bit jumps in the first six molecules. IOWs, these two molecules already show a very high level of homology to the human form in pre-vertebrates, and change only relatively little in vertebrates. We can say, therefore, that most of the functional information in these two proteins was already present before the transition to vertebrates.

So, to sum up:

  • a) The six proteins analyzed here all exhibit a huge informational jump between pre-vertebrates and vertebrates. The total functional informational novelty for just this small group of proteins is more than 6000 bits, with a mean of more than 1000 bits per protein.
  • b) These proteins are probably crucial agents in a much more complex regulation network implied in neuron adhesion, endocytosis, migration, and in the end in the vast developmental process which makes individual neurons migrate to their specific individual locations in the vertebrate body plan.
  • c) The above process is certainly much more complex than the six proteins we have considered, and implies other proteins and obviously many non coding elements. Our six proteins, therefore, can be considered as a tiny sample of the general complexity of the process, and of the informational novelty implied in the process itself.
  • d) Moreover, the process regulating neuron migration is certainly strictly integrated, with so many agents working in a coordinated way. Therefore, there is obviously a strong element of irreducible complexity implied in the whole informational novelty of the vertebrate process, an element that we can only barely envisage, because we still understand too little.
  • e) The neuron regulation process, of course, is only a part of the informational novelty implied in vertebrates, a small sample of a much more complex reality. For example, there is a lot of similar novelty implied in the workings of the immune system, of the cytokine signaling system, and so on.
  • f) The jump described here is really a jump: there is no trace of intermediate forms which can explain that jump in all existing pre-vertebrates. Of course, neo darwinists can always dream of lost intermediates in extinct species. This is a free world.
  • g) Are these 6000+ bits of functional information really functional? Yes, they are. Why? because they have been conserved for more than 400 million years. Remember, the transition we have considered happens between the first chordates and cartilaginous fish, and it can be traced to that range of time. And those 6000+ bits are bits of homology between cartilaginous fish and humans.
  • h) How much is 6000 bits of functional information? It is really a lot! Remember, Dembski’s Universal Probability Bound, taking in consideration the whole reasonable probabilistic resource of our whole universe from the Big Bang to now, is just 500 bits. 6000 bits correspond to a search space of 2^6000, IOWs about 10^2000, a number so big that we cannot even begin to visualize it. It’s good to remind ourselves, from time to time, that we are dealing with exponential values.
  • i) How great is the probability that 6000 bits of functional information can be generated in a window time of less than 100 million years, by some unguided process of RV + NS in six objects connected in an irreducibly complex system, even if RV were really helped by some NS in intermediates of which there is no trace? The answer is simple: practically non existent.
  • j) Therefore, the tiny sample of six proteins that we have considered here, which is only a small part of a much bigger scenario, points with extreme strength to a definite design inference:

The transition to vertebrates was a highly engineered process. The necessary functional information was added by design.

Comments
Wow! In the 1970s a Swedish song started with the question "can you hear the drums, Fernando?" But now, I would rather ask "can you hear the commotion gpuccio's OP has caused? Now we know why the polite dissenters were absent here. They were busy somewhere else! BTW, it's kind of funny to see this inter-blogging debate. Mung can take a break now. :)Dionisio
July 25, 2016
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dazz: Are an OP and 47 comments at TSZ about my "article" also a "fucking waste of time"? Or are they fulfilling some privileged mission?gpuccio
July 25, 2016
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dazz:
What a fucking waste of time Gpuccio’s article is. The same old retarded tornado-in-a-junkyard crap, spiced with some bogus self-centric “information” theory
See post #143!gpuccio
July 25, 2016
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petrushka (at TSZ): Greetings. Just happy to see you are still there. :) I miss you.gpuccio
July 25, 2016
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Tom English (at TSZ):
Respond to gpuccio as though he’s actually trying to do science, rather than to create the appearance in a propaganda outlet that “intelligent design” activists do a different kind of science, and you aid and abet the crypto-creationists.
Than you! I had never been called a "crypto-creationist" before (not that I know, however). I am rather proud. And I just needed some propaganda outlet, after those almost reasonable posts from the other side.gpuccio
July 25, 2016
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dazz (at TSZ) Thank you for going into some biological detail at your post #35 (at TSZ). Yes, the 334 bits of homology between the huma protein and the one in lancelets is highly significant. An expect of 2e-81 is of course very significant: the two proteins are certainly homologues. But, as you can see, the identities are only 27%. That's because 27% of identities in a very long protein are a lot of identical AAs. That's why in my analysis I am looking for information jumps in proteins which already have some homologues in pre-vertebrates. If there were no homology, we would have a de novo gene. But I have been describing jumps. I hope that is clear.gpuccio
July 25, 2016
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dazz:
I’ve been reading Gpuccios article and he seems to compute “functional information” in terms of bit-score BLAST comparisons with human proteins: the higher the match to the human protein, the higher “functional information” is. Clearly he’s assuming the plan has been fulfilled and it’s us
No. You have understood the methodology, but not the reason for it. My fault, certainly. I have used this methodology in previous posts, so I have gone into details here. The idea is: I use the human form of the proteins because what I am looking for is conservation form the early vertebrates (especially cartilaginous fish) and humans. That gives ne a good foundation to consider the bitscore as a measure of functional information, because, as I have said many times, 400+ million years of conservation of a complex sequence is guarantee of high functional restraint. If you look at my previous posts, especially this one: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/information-jumps-again-some-more-facts-and-thoughts-about-prickle-1-and-taxonomically-restricted-genes/ you will see that I have used exactly the same methodology to identify functional information in Hymenoptera. So, as you can see, I am in no way partial to a plan aimed at humans. I hope that clarifies the point.gpuccio
July 25, 2016
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CharlieM (at TSZ):
I am prepared to give the question, “what is the plan?” a go.
Thank you! I already like you. :)
It is my belief that the plan comes from a formative “subtle body” which is beyond our physical perception.
OK, I am looking for adepts for a new "neo-vitalist" project. Are you on? :) However, I must always remind everybody that ID deals with information in physical objects. But the concept that there may be things in reality which are not yet understood by our present world view (call it physicalism, materialism, or just naturalism, methodological or else) is important: science is a search for what is real, not for what satisfies our present convictions.gpuccio
July 25, 2016
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dazz (at TSZ): "I really, really want to know what the mechanism is that this unknown designer used to “introduce functional information” I want to know that too! The hypothesis that I have proposed many times is that, whatever the mechanism may be, it must be similar to the mechanism used by our human consciousness to interact with our brain. IOWs, a consciousness - matter interface. OMagain proposes "quantum handwaving". I have suggested many times that a quantum interface is the most likely solution. Eccles and others have proposed a similar solution for the consciousness - brain interface. More "downstream", possible models for the implementation of functional information are: - guided variation - intelligent selection of random variation Moreover, I have proposed many time an important role for transposons. Many empirical data suggest that. So, I am a great fan of transposons as "tools of design".gpuccio
July 25, 2016
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bill (and OMagain at TSZ): OK, OMagain essentially asks: what is the plan? That comes from my statement: "why was this functional information introduced at this stage? what is the plan? what functions (even completely unrelated to sheer survival and reproduction) are being engineered here?" So, in a sense, a partial answer is already in my statement. The point is, here I am not speaking of a very general plan, like: why were living beings designed at all. It should be clear that I am speaking very empirically. My point is: by a functional information analysis. we can recognize the new functional information added at definite times and in definite places. For example, my brief ans very simple analysis shows that lot of functional information has been added in those six proteins involved in neuronal migration. Now the ID point of view is: functional information is added to express new functions. This is a very important point where ID is different from neo darwinism. I have highlighted that many times. For neo darwinism, the only "purpose" in biological beings (if a purpose can be described at all) is reproductive fitness. That's the only function that has a role in their theory. That's also the main difference between NS and design, or even between NS and intelligent selection, as I have discussed some time ago here: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/natural-selection-vs-artificial-selection/ So, neo darwinism can only reason in terms of chance and/or reproductive advantage. That is a very serious limitation. The point of view of ID is completely different. In ID, the center of all is function: any function. A designer can implement any function, not just reproductive fitness. So, when we recognize an input of functional information, like for example in the proteins of my OP, the natural questino is: why? IOWs, what is the function that requires this sudden increase of functional information? Neo darwinism can only answer: there must be some way that those new sequences gave a reproductive advantage. Unfortunately, that answer is usually wrong, and therefore remains only wishful thinking. Those "reproductive advantages", which should evoke NS, remain in the realm of myth, just like the famous intermediates which have all gone extinct. But ID does not suffer from that kind of error. ID can recognize functions for what they are. So, we know that six proteins implied in neuronal migration in vertebrates exhibit a definite, huge jump in functional information. Now, we know two things: those 6000+ bits of functional information must be functional (we infer that from their high conservation for more than 400 million years). At the same time, we don't know what they do. We can reasonably infer that they confer specificity to neuronal migration in vertebrates, but that is almost all we can say at present. Of course, I am not saying that I can answer those questions. I am saying that they are very good questions, and that ID is the correct paradigm to make those questions, and that biological research should look for answers starting from an ID approach. It's always much easier to find the right answers, when you have the right questions. So, the answer could be: what is so special in the process of neuronal migration in vertebrates? What is the role of those new specific sequences in so many important proteins? How do they work? Do they implement new cell interactions? Do they have any relationship with the vertebrate body plan? With brain development? And so on. So, OMagain, as you can see, I am absolutely ready to discuss my point of view in as much detail as it is possible. You are cordially invited to join us here, if you can.gpuccio
July 25, 2016
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bill: Thank you for referencing that. I have gone and given a look to the post and to some of the comments. I must confess that I had not been at TSZ for a while. The author of the OP goes under the ID of OMagain. I don't know him, at least not with this name. However, I find his post balanced and interesting. He asks, more or less, if:
the ID project is now ready to move from simply determining design to answering the questions he posed:
Well, I do hope it is. Indeed, I am not really aware of an "ID project". For me, ID is a scientific paradigm, open to all, a way of interpreting biological reality according to reasonable inferences. I am not sure that there is an "ID project", probably not even an "ID movement", or party, or team. There are certainly people, of different kinds and with different approaches, who accept ID as a basic paradigm for biology. That's what I would simply call "the ID field". And there are (very few) people who work in the biological field trying to apply the ID paradigm, like Durston, Axe, Gauger, and others. To them I am very greatful. They are doing a great job, but obviously their resources are very limited. As for me, I am certainly available to discuss, at the level which I can afford, in this blof the questions I have made. But I would like to remind OMagain, and others at TSZ, that ID is not at all accepted by the biological academy as something which should be at least considered, and therefore the work to make others aware that "simply determining design" is possible and must be considered is still a great work that remains to be done. That said, I am ready to comment briefly on OMagain questions, and on some of the other comments in that thread. But I will do it in the next posts, as soon as I have a moment. Of course, if any of the TSZ commenters who seem to have read my OP and be interested enough to comment on it at TSZ are available to comment here (and if they have not been banned! :) I would really welcome them.gpuccio
July 25, 2016
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Hi Gpuccio There is a new article at TSZ that uses your article as a basis to discuss ID. From the TMZ article: You stated biology was going to move from.
how did this sequence evolve by some non existent neo darwinian mechanism giving reproductive advantage? but rather: why was this functional information introduced at this stage? what is the plan? what functions (even completely unrelated to sheer survival and reproduction) are being engineered here?
The author goes on to claim what you are trying to establish:
Gpuccio references actual biology in his writings and is one of the few at UD that do, and as such I’m prepared to take him at his word that the ID project is now ready to move from simply determining design to answering the questions he posed: why was this functional information introduced at this stage? what is the plan? what functions (even completely unrelated to sheer survival and reproduction) are being engineered here? If any ID supporter would like to provide a specific example with answers for those 3 points for discussion that would be perfect. Gpuccio’s OP concludes: The transition to vertebrates was a highly engineered process. The necessary functional information was added by design. In response I simply repeat back the question what is the plan?
It appears that the author does not understand your original statement and thus is creating a straw-man argument. You and I have had enough discussions that I think I understand what you meant by your original statement but I would be interested to how you would respond to the TSZ comment.bill cole
July 25, 2016
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gpuccio: in the first lecture of the 2014 Systems Biology course by professor Uri Alon, around time mark 34:50 Dr. Alon talked about the remarkable genetic machinery and asked how it came to be? Please note this isn't a transcript, but just an approximate interpretation of what I heard in the video. Anyone interested in hearing exactly what the professor said may want to watch the video. Apparently he said that supposedly it was not an engineer who designed it so beautifully like this. Then adding another sense of wonder, he said that this machinery is almost universal. For example genes in E-coli bacteria and human beings look very similar, same genetic code. Take a gene that encodes for a protein that turns jellyfish green (green fluorescent protein) and using molecular biology tools add that piece of DNA code from the jellyfish to the E-coli DNA promoter activated by the TF associated with sugar level and the bacteria will turn green depending on the concentration level of sugar. @35:50 Amazing modularity! That's a big experimental tool used to study the dynamics of gene regulatory circuits playing with this modularity. @36:30 BTW, it doesn't work the other way, i.e. take the corresponding promoter from the jellyfish DNA to the E-coli and it won't work inside the E-coli because E-coli doesn't make the transcription factor that activates the promoter copied from the jellyfish. That's an interesting asymmetry of the modularity. The way this came about... this thing... the process we think, believe it or not, is by [through?] a framework they call natural selection: every time DNA replicates there's a probability to make a one-letter error called [random?] "mutation". Due to these mutations in the genes the proteins could malfunction, i.e. the bacteria will have less than a fighting chance vs. other bacteria that could affect the bacteria reproduction hence the mutation will vanish, but sometimes that mutation may turn into an advantage for reproduction and then that mutated DNA is passed along through the bacteria population. So that's the process they believe -believe it or not- brought about all this kind of machinery. That's a big challenge right now in biology. Understand this possibility of the story of natural selection in details to make this modularity for example. A major difference between species is in the regulatory networks. Repeating the phrase 'believe it or not' in a serious course like this gives a bad impression because it seems kind of wobbling, doesn't it? It almost seemed like it was a required thing he must say or else... well, you know... The lecture quality would have improved had the professor completely avoided all that digressing talk about origin and focused on the stuff that is known with certainty, which is related only to how it works and what it does. PS. I definitely recommend taking this course if you're interested in the subject. The lectures are very well structured and the video format makes it easier to understand because the autodidact student can repeat any parts, pause to search for terms, etch, which couldn't be done sitting in the classroom in real time (in vivo). Professor Uri Alon's book on systems biology is the main textbook suggested for the 2014 course on systems biology by professor Jeff Gore at MIT.Dionisio
July 24, 2016
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gpuccio: I simply Binged*: gpuccio epigenetic and Bingo! BTW, the resulting list included other blogs where they quoted or referred to you. I can tell you're popular among the polite dissenters out there. Apparently they like your comments as much as we do here. :) Here I quoted your comments, but apparently forgot to provide a link to the source: https://uncommondescent.com/epigenetics/epigenetics-explains-darwins-finches/#comment-528378 I use Bing in my Surface tablet. It's the default search engine and it works for me, as you can see. :) The interactive animation software development project I've worked on is mostly based on MSFT / Xamarin platforms, hence I'm sold to them. :) BTW, Xamarin main conference is titled 'Evolve' which confirms that highly controversial term is context-dependent. In their case it refers to intelligent guided evolution. :)Dionisio
July 24, 2016
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Dionisio: Yes, that's it! How did you do it? I copy it here, in case someone is interested (ah, ah!): "Indiana Effigy: It’s not that simple. Epigenetics is a constant interaction between a static form of information (the nucleotide sequence stored in DNA, both protein coding and non coding) and its dynamic expression as transcriptomes and proteomes in each different cell state. In that sense, there is no condition in the cell life which is not at the same time genetic and epigenetic. For example, the zygote which originates multicellular beings hai its own distinctive epigenetic state: the DNA is expressed in the zygote in different ways than it will be expressed in different states of the embryo, or in different specific tissue cells, both stem cells and differentiated cells. The epigenetic state of the zygote, in turn, is derived mainly from the cytoplasm of the oocyte, but also from epigenetic messages in the sperm cell. So, at each moment of the life of a cell, or even more of a multicellular being, the total information which is being expressed is a sum of genetic and epigenetic information. And, whatever you may think, any theory about the origin of biological information must explain how the total information content which is expressed during the life span of some biological being came into existence." And: "Indiana Effigy: “But if I am reading you correctly, the actual “information” still relies on the DNA.” Not all of it, certainly. The cytoplasm, as I said, bears information too. And so does the state in which DNA is when it is transmitted in cell division. There is never a moment where DNA is in some “absolute” state. It is always in some epigenetic state. And the cytoplasm, or the nucleus itself as a whole, have specific information content at each state. The sum total of proteins and RNAs expressed, for example. As “life always comes from life”, life is always a continuous dynamic expression of genetic and epigenetic information. When Venter builds his “artificial” genomes, copying and modifying natural genomes, he has to put them into a living cell. IOWs, he is introducing a modified genetic component into a specific existing epigenetic condition. Remember, life is a dynamic, far from equilibrium condition, not a static storage of information."gpuccio
July 24, 2016
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gpuccio Check this out: Note you posted several comments in that same thread. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/name-it-claim-it-epigenetics-now-just-another-evolutionary-mechanism/#comment-603834Dionisio
July 24, 2016
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Mung: Ah, yes, my personal fight with the missing intermediates has been around for a very long time. It has even been debated in great detail in enemy field (at Mark Frank's blog, and probably also at TSZ). So, it's an old story (but always stimulating). I don't know if Alicia is busy elsewhere, or what else. I really miss the old good interlocutors: Mark Frank, Zachriel, and many others. Intellectual confrontation is a value in itself: the merit ( if there is any! :) ) for my personal ideas about ID can be given, for the best part, to my interlocutors.gpuccio
July 24, 2016
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Dionisio: I fixed the blockquote error. Thank you. You are right, the silence of the other side is specially evident in this thread. And yet, we have tried to touch many topics, apparently interesting and intriguing. I wonder, as you do, what's happened. I hope they are well, anyway. :) Regarding my statement about the genetic - epigenetic system, I think it was a comment, recent but not too recent, and I really don't know how to retrieve it. A stupid question: is there a way to see a list of all my comments (not just the posts) in my author's page? That would help.gpuccio
July 24, 2016
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Ok, enough joking here, let's get serious now. I appreciate Mung's very creative (and funny) comments to make gpuccio happy by providing some missing confrontation. But, besides the one Mung mentioned, why don't we see the other 'polite dissenters' here? Where did they go? Have they been banned from this site? Do they need a GPS to find this thread? :) Would anyone dare to argue against gpuccio's OP and follow-up comments in this thread? Where are professors M, S, etc. when we need them most? :) Hello! Anybody out there? :)Dionisio
July 24, 2016
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Mung @125
The reason we haven’t heard from Alicia is because she is off compiling that list of missing intermediates that we have no evidence for, and it’s a very long list, and Alicia’s imagination has limits too.
Ok, that explains one missing 'polite dissenter' but what about the professors? :)Dionisio
July 24, 2016
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Mung @125
As usual gpuccio ignores all the missing intermediates. An astounding display of a lack of imagination.
Yes, he seems to have serious intellectual problems accepting what is so obvious to everyone and their cousins out there: that the neo-Darwinian theory (+extensions) can answer all his questions and many more, including why aunt Matilda baked that yummy cake for her nephew Johnny and not for me. :)Dionisio
July 24, 2016
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gpuccio @121
Tons of evidence demonstrate that huge numbers of new functional information are needed for the transition from one species to another one, and much more when sudden jumps. like the emergence of a new clade or subphylum, like vertebrates, are implied. Just think how different are the genomes of C. elegans and C. briggsae, two small nematodes which appear almost identical phenotypically, and are separated by “only” 80 – 120 million years. From the “wormbook” site:
One way C. briggsae and C. elegans orthologs were identified was by searching for C. briggsae/C. elegans pairs that were each other’s best BLASTP (Altschul et al., 1997) match in the opposite species. Synteny was subsequently used as a criterion to search for more orthologous pairs. These combined approaches produced altogether 12,155 ortholog pairs, or 62% of the C. briggsae gene set or 65% of the C. elegans gene set (Stein et al., 2003). After the publication of the initial C. briggsae genome analysis paper, a recently developed program InParanoid (O’Brien et al., 2005) was applied to identify orthologs between C. briggsae and C. elegans. The InParanoid database (April 2005 release), using a recent C. elegans gene set, lists 12,858 C. briggsae and C. elegans ortholog pairs. Therefore the numbers of orthologs obtained by these two different approaches agree well with each other. However, the number of identified orthologs will change over time as the genome assembly and gene annotation, especially for C. briggsae, improve.
So, only 62-65% of ortholog genes in two almost identical organisms! Of course, the emergence of vertebrates required probably an unimaginable quantity of original functional information, if we consider that my 6000+ well defined bits come from a really tiny sample of specific proteins. So, what’s the problem with the transition to humans? In my OP, I have said:
Of course, another fundamental transition is the one to homo sapiens, but I will not deal with it here: I fully agree with Bill Cole that it is an amazing event under all points of view, but it is also true that it presents some very specific problems, which make it a little bit different from all the other transitions we have considered above.
There are reason for that statement. The problem is that the transition from primates to humans, a very recent one, shows the apparent paradox of a huge phenotypic and functional difference with, apparently, a rather small genomic difference. Now, there could be various explanations for that. The one preferred by Neo-Darwinists is that even a small difference can be enough to explain the different results in humans. I absolutely refute that explanation, which has the only purpose to “salvage” the foolish theory of Neo-Darwinism. It is refuted also by the whole corpus of information in the existing proteomes and genome, where huge differences in functional information are required to achieve new complex phenotypic functions, as showed by this OP and by the following discussion. Moreover, Neo-Darwinists also state that those small difference between, say, human and chimp, are exactly what is expected by the neutral theory. So, if you sum the two statements, you have the amazing paradox that the huge phenotypic and functional differences between chimp and humans are due essentially to a bunch of neutral variations! OK, let’s leave that kind of belief to our kind neo darwinist friends: after all, they are well accustomed to believe in myths! :) What other explanations are possible? First of all, we have to consider that, the more we go upward in the evolution/design process, the more functional differences are mainly achieved by changes in regulation networks, rather than in brute effectors. Regulation networks are much more elusive that gross biochemical functions, and we certainly understand much less about them. Moreover, a great part of those regulation networks is probably implemented at the level of non coding DNA, and we understand even less of that. There is also the epigenetic level that we have to consider: epigenetic differences can certainly have a great role. Although many, especially in the neo darwinist field, tend to believe that all epigenetic information derives essentially from the genome, that is in no way an established fact. I have proposed in another thread to consider the genetic-epigenetic system as a whole, where information is continually exchanged dynamically between the two parts of the system. Finally, there is another consideration, which IMO is very important: even with all that we know of genetic and epigenetic organization, the fact remains that the true procedures which govern the whole process of cell differentiation remain elusive. Now, neo darwinists tend to suggest that the information for those governing procedures simply does not exist, and that everything happens because a great number of lucky independent cascades of complex events just happen, and nothing really controls them. OK, let’s leave that belief to them (see above). Others, like me (and certainly my friend Dionisio) firmly believe that there must be a lot of specific and complex information there, in some form, in some place, which governs those complex development of different complex procedures which generate so many different cell types and body forms and functions. Why do we believe that? Because that’s the way, the only way, that complex information systems work. But there is no doubt that the information about those governing procedures remains really elusive. What is the most reasonable conclusion? I will state it, and then let my darwinist friends free to consider it a “God of the gaps” argument! :) There is still “a lot” that we don’t understand and cannot even vaguely figure out, in how cell development works. The differences that make humans human will probably be found in that “a lot”.
I assumed the "wormbook" quote ends right before this statement:
So, only 62-65% of ortholog genes in two almost identical organisms!
Here's a request: In the following statement, can you provide the link to the referred thread? Thank you.
I have proposed in another thread to consider the genetic-epigenetic system as a whole, where information is continually exchanged dynamically between the two parts of the system.
Would anyone dare to argue against the comments posted @121? Where are the professors when we need them most? :) Hello! Anybody out there? :)Dionisio
July 24, 2016
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As usual gpuccio ignores all the missing intermediates. An astounding display of a lack of imagination. The reason we haven't heard from Alicia is because she is off compiling that list of missing intermediates that we have no evidence for, and it's a very long list, and Alicia's imagination has limits too. It's just not as limited as gpuccio's.Mung
July 24, 2016
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gpuccio @105
Co-option? In my world, this is heavy and brilliant engineering! [...] what usually is labeled as co-option, or simply as re-use of the same domain, is really a process characterized in many cases by a whole re-formulation of the information in that sequence and structure. A design process, under all points of view.
Would anyone dare to argue against that statement within the context @105? Where are the professors when we need them? :)Dionisio
July 24, 2016
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gpuccio @109
[...] it is in itself an isolated island of function!
Would anyone out there dare to argue against that statement within the context @109? Where are the professors when we need them? :)Dionisio
July 24, 2016
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gpuccio @119
[...] the six proteins I have considered are just a tiny sample of an interacting regulation network that includes a lot of other “agents”, all strictly integrated to allow and tightly control one of the most important functions for the ordered development of nervous system.
You've said it all. Additional comments are not required. Would anyone out there dare to argue against that statement within the context @119? Where are the professors when we need them? :)Dionisio
July 24, 2016
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Origenes: I agree with you: I definitely disagree with VJ on that point. Tons of evidence demonstrate that huge numbers of new functional information are needed for the transition from one species to another one, and much more when sudden jumps. like the emergence of a new clade or subphylum, like vertebrates, are implied. Just think how different are the genomes of C. elegans and C. briggsae, two small nematodes which appear almost identical phenotypically, and are separated by "only" 80 - 120 million years. From the "wormbook" site:
One way C. briggsae and C. elegans orthologs were identified was by searching for C. briggsae/C. elegans pairs that were each other's best BLASTP (Altschul et al., 1997) match in the opposite species. Synteny was subsequently used as a criterion to search for more orthologous pairs. These combined approaches produced altogether 12,155 ortholog pairs, or 62% of the C. briggsae gene set or 65% of the C. elegans gene set (Stein et al., 2003). After the publication of the initial C. briggsae genome analysis paper, a recently developed program InParanoid (O'Brien et al., 2005) was applied to identify orthologs between C. briggsae and C. elegans. The InParanoid database (April 2005 release), using a recent C. elegans gene set, lists 12,858 C. briggsae and C. elegans ortholog pairs. Therefore the numbers of orthologs obtained by these two different approaches agree well with each other. However, the number of identified orthologs will change over time as the genome assembly and gene annotation, especially for C. briggsae, improve.
So, only 62-65% of ortholog genes in two almost identical organisms! Of course, the emergence of vertebrates required probably an unimaginable quantity of original functional information, if we consider that my 6000+ well defined bits come from a really tiny sample of specific proteins. So, what's the problem with the transition to humans? In my OP, I have said:
Of course, another fundamental transition is the one to homo sapiens, but I will not deal with it here: I fully agree with Bill Cole that it is an amazing event under all points of view, but it is also true that it presents some very specific problems, which make it a little bit different from all the other transitions we have considered above.
There are reason for that statement. The problem is that the transition form primates to humans, a very recent one, shows the apparent paradix of a huge phenotypic and functional difference with, apparently, a rather small genomic difference. Now, there could be various explanations for that. The one preferred by neo-darwinists is that even a small difference can be enough to explain the different results in humans. I absolutely refute that explanation, which has the only purpose to "salvage" the foolish theory of neo-darwinism. It is refuted also by the whole corpus of information in the existing proteomes and genome, where huge differences in functional information are required to achieve new complex phenotypic functions, as showed by this OP and by the following discussion. Moreover, neo-darwinists also state that those small difference between, say, human and chimp, are exactly what is expected by the neutral theory. So, if you sum the two statements, you have the amazing paradox that the huge phenotypic and functional differences between chimp and humans are due essentially to a bunch of neutral variations! OK, let's leave that kind of belief to our kind neo darwinist friends: after all, they are well accustomed to believe in myths! :) What other explanations are possible? First of all, we have to consider that, the more we go upward in the evolution/design process, the more functional differences are mainly achieved by changes in regulation networks, rather than in brute effectors. Regulation networks are much more elusive that gross biochemical functions, and we certainly understand much less about them. Moreover, a great part of those regulation networks is probably implemented at the level of non coding DNA, and we understand even less of that. There is also the epigenetic level that we have to consider: epigenetic differences can certainly have a great role. Although many, especially in the neo darwinist field, tend to believe that all epigenetic information derives essentially from the genome, that is in no way an established fact. I have proposed in another thread to consider the genectic-epigenetic system as a whole, where information is continually exchanged dynamically between the two parts of the system. Finally, there is another consideration, which IMO is very important: even with all that we know of genetic and epigenetic organization, the fact remains that the true procedures which govern the whole process of cell differentiation remain elusive. Now, neo darwinists tend to suggest that the information for those governing procedures simply does not exist, and that everything happens because a great number of lucky independent cascades of complex events just happen, and nothing really controls them. OK, let's leave that belief to them (see above). Others, like me (and certainly my friend Dionisio) firmly believe that there must be a lot of specific and complex information there, in some form, in some place, which governs those complex development of different complex procedures which generate so many different cell types and body forms and functions. Why do we believe that? Because that's the way, the only way, that complex information systems work. But there is no doubt that the information about those governing procedures remains really elusive. What is the most reasonable conclusion? I will state it, and then let my darwinist friends free to consider it a "God of the gaps" argument! :) There is still "a lot" that we don't understand and cannot even vaguely figure out, in how cell development works. The differences that make humans human will probably be found in that "a lot".gpuccio
July 24, 2016
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Gpuccio: The most striking example is probably Astrotactin 2, which presents the biggest jump from cephalochordata (329 bits) to cartilaginous fishes (1860 bits), for a great total of 1531 bits of jump!
1531 bits in just one protein … and we know that Astrotactin 2 is just one of the many influencers of the development of the nervous system. In the light of these huge numbers what to think of the “340” number, recently used by Swamidass and Torley wrt ape human transition:
VJTorley: You [Eric Anderson] ask: “Do you seriously think 340 beneficial mutations in DNA could turn an ape-like creature into a human, and 3000 beneficial mutations in DNA could turn a land animal into a whale?” I have to say (reluctantly) that I haven’t seen any rigorous quantitative argument yet as to why this could not be the case. … For human evolution, I’m guessing that 30 to 50 separate organs (or systems) underwent transformation, and that there were 10 mutations per organ, with these mutations occurring more or less in sync (due to intelligent guidance), making 300 to 500 mutations. ~ source ~
Origenes
July 24, 2016
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Dionisio: Thank you for linking, in your ever zealous search for new and interesting material, the following paper: "Cellullar insights into cerebral cortical development: focusing on the locomotion mode of neuronal migration" Takeshi Kawauchi1 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4595654/pdf/fncel-09-00394.pdf which adds a lot of details to this extremely fascinating topic. It is particularly obvious, reading the paper, that the six proteins I have considered are just a tiny sample of an interacting regulation network that includes a lot of other "agents", all strictly integrated to allow and tightly control one of the most important functions for the ordered development of nervous system. Thank you again.gpuccio
July 24, 2016
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bill: Thank you for the very interesting links.gpuccio
July 23, 2016
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