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The New Atheists Are Simpering Cowards

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Nietzsche was wrong and tragic and, in the end, insane. But at least he was brave and honest. Brave enough to stare into the abyss and honest enough to report back what he saw there. He would be disgusted by the puerile, simpering cowardice that characterizes atheism in the 21st century.

In Beyond Good and Evil Nietzsche writes of those who have cast off the restraints and bonds of the past: “Need I say expressly after all this that they will be free, VERY free spirit . . .” And from their vantage point of freedom these new philosophers will look down with contempt on those who espouse the ideals of Christianity and liberal democracy:

What [those espousing love and the equality of man] would fain attain with all their strength, is the universal, green-meadow happiness of the herd, together with security, safety, comfort, and alleviation of life for everyone, their two most frequently chanted songs and doctrines are called “Equality of Rights” and “Sympathy with All Sufferers”—and suffering itself is looked upon by them as something which must be done away with. We opposite ones, however, who have opened our eye and conscience to the question how and where the plant “man” has hitherto grown most vigorously, believe that this has always taken place under the opposite conditions, that for this end the dangerousness of his situation had to be increased enormously, his inventive faculty and dissembling power (his “spirit”) had to develop into subtlety and daring under long oppression and compulsion, and his Will to Life had to be increased to the unconditioned Will to Power—we believe that severity, violence, slavery, danger in the street and in the heart, secrecy, stoicism, tempter’s art and devilry of every kind,—that everything wicked, terrible, tyrannical, predatory, and serpentine in man, serves as well for the elevation of the human species as its opposite . . . such kind of men are we, we free spirits!

Nietzsche identifies two types of moralities: The Master-Morality, which he advances as superior, and the Slave-Morality, which he despises. To understand what Nietzsche is saying it is important to keep in mind what he means be the words “master” and “slave.” He is not talking about institutional slavery. When he uses the word master, he means the natural aristocrat, the strong man, the one who has the ability to impose his will. When he uses the word “slave,” he means simply the opposite of master, the natural servant, the weak man, the one who if nature were to take her course would serve the master. He describes the Master-Morality as follows:

The noble type of man regards HIMSELF as a determiner of values; he does not require to be approved of; he passes the judgment: “What is injurious to me is injurious in itself;” he knows that it is he himself only who confers honour on things; he is a CREATOR OF VALUES. He honours whatever he recognizes in himself: such morality equals self-glorification. . . . one may act towards beings of a lower rank, towards all that is foreign, just as seems good to one, or “as the heart desires,” and in any case “beyond good and evil”

In contrast to master-morality, slaves attempt to alleviate their condition by inducing the natural aristocracy voluntarily to cede their birthright, their right to impose their will on those who are too weak to resist:

It is otherwise with the second type of morality, SLAVE-MORALITY. Supposing that the abused, the oppressed, the suffering, the unemancipated, the weary, and those uncertain of themselves should moralize, what will be the common element in their moral estimates? Probably a pessimistic suspicion with regard to the entire situation of man will find expression, perhaps a condemnation of man, together with his situation. The slave has an unfavourable eye for the virtues of the powerful; . . . THOSE qualities which serve to alleviate the existence of sufferers are brought into prominence and flooded with light; it is here that sympathy, the kind, helping hand, the warm heart, patience, diligence, humility, and friendliness attain to honour; for here these are the most useful qualities, and almost the only means of supporting the burden of existence.

Nietzsche is especially contemptuous of democracy, which is the political expression of slave morality, and Christianity, the religion by which slaves conquered their masters. For Nietzsche nature is cruel and indifferent to suffering, and that cruel indifference is a good thing. The strong rule the weak and that is as it should be. And why should the strong rule the weak? Because that is the natural order of things of course. In a world where God is dead, objective morality is merely an illusion slaves have foisted on masters as a sort of self-defense mechanism.

When Nietzsche urges us to go beyond good and evil, he is urging us to recognize the implications of God’s death for morality. God is the only possible source of transcendent objective moral norms. If God does not exist then neither do transcendent objective moral norms. And if transcendent objective moral norms do not exist, neither do “good” and “evil” in the traditional senses of those words. There is only a perpetual battle of all against all, and “good” is a synonym for prevailing in that battle, and “evil” is a synonym for losing. In the story of the madman Nietzsche explored the profound loss felt at the demise of our comforting God-myth:

Have you not heard of that madman who lit a lantern in the bright morning hours, ran to the market place, and cried incessantly: “I seek God! I seek God!” — As many of those who did not believe in God were standing around just then, he provoked much laughter. Has he got lost? asked one. Did he lose his way like a child? asked another. Or is he hiding? Is he afraid of us? Has he gone on a voyage? emigrated? — Thus they yelled and laughed.

The madman jumped into their midst and pierced them with his eyes. “Whither is God?” he cried; “I will tell you. We have killed him — you and I. All of us are his murderers. But how did we do this? How could we drink up the sea? Who gave us the sponge to wipe away the entire horizon? What were we doing when we unchained this earth from its sun? Whither is it moving now? Whither are we moving? Away from all suns? Are we not plunging continually? Backward, sideward, forward, in all directions? Is there still any up or down? Are we not straying, as through an infinite nothing? Do we not feel the breath of empty space? Has it not become colder? Is not night continually closing in on us? Do we not need to light lanterns in the morning? Do we hear nothing as yet of the noise of the gravediggers who are burying God? Do we smell nothing as yet of the divine decomposition? Gods, too, decompose. God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him.

“How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it? There has never been a greater deed; and whoever is born after us — for the sake of this deed he will belong to a higher history than all history hitherto.”

Here the madman fell silent and looked again at his listeners; and they, too, were silent and stared at him in astonishment. At last he threw his lantern on the ground, and it broke into pieces and went out.

I feel like my ears are going to bleed at the bleating of the new atheists who write in these pages. They go on and on and on and on about how morality is rooted in empathy and the avoidance of suffering. Nietzsche would have spit his contempt on them, for they are espousing the “herd animal” Christian slave-morality he disdained and which, ironically, they claim to have risen above. How many times have the atheists insisted, “we are just as ‘good’ as you”? Why have they failed to learn from Nietzsche that “good” means nothing. Why do they insist that they conform to a standard that they also insist does not exist?

The answer to these questions is the same: They refuse to acknowledge the conclusions that are logically compelled by their premises. And why do they refuse? Because they are simpering cowards.

I can respect while disagreeing with a man like Nietzsche, a man who follows his premises where they lead, even if they lead to asking questions such as “Is there still any up or down? Are we not straying, as through an infinite nothing? Do we not feel the breath of empty space? Has it not become colder? Is not night continually closing in on us?” I have nothing but contempt for smiley-faced, weak-kneed, milquetoast atheism that insists that God is dead and all is well because we are just as nice as you.

Comments
Phinehas, This is your claim:
The very nature of a moral position is that we insist that others adhere to that position, most often on pain of consequences.
It seems that you feel the need to impose your moral views upon others and take that to be a universal truth. Perhaps that's because you think that your moral views are transcendentally correct and therefore must be accepted by everyone on the planet. I can think of moral positions that a subjectivist might have about her own behavior that don't require others to take those positions. For example, she might consider infidelity immoral for herself, but be complacent about the fidelity of strangers to each other. Or she might consider contraception a morally acceptable practice, but be tolerant of Roman Catholics who view it as immoral - as long as they don't insist upon making it illegal. Or she might consider it dishonorable to suppress criticism of her friend's tobacco habit, but understand that other persons might think it wiser to hold their tongues.Daniel King
February 11, 2015
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DK:
I see your point.
Perhaps, though you are showing no indication that you do. I suppose this could be willful ignorance on your part though. Either way, I'm happy to walk you through it. The very nature of a law is that it insists that others must comply with a particular view on what OUGHT to happen. A particular view on what OUGHT to happen is a moral position. Laws typically have enforced consequences for not complying. They are constructed this way in order to make people CARE about what they OUGHT to do. As such, working to implement a law is obviously a very poor example when trying to assert that:
DK: ...a person can have a moral position without insisting that it be inflicted upon others...
Which is what you offered as a response to my statement:
Phin: What I don’t get is why they think anyone else ought to care about what they subjectively feel is WRONG any more than about what they subjectively feel about ice cream.
The very nature of a moral position is that we insist that others adhere to that position, most often on pain of consequences. Your example of a law supports this notion. It does not support your assertion that, "a person can have a moral position without insisting that it be inflicted upon others." Though unsupported, your assertion may yet be true. So, I say again:
Phin: Show me someone who actually treats morality like that, and I’ll gladly admit that there is at least one subjectivist that isn’t logically inconsistent.
But all of this is very different to how we typically treat subjective feelings. Why don't we have laws about consuming chocolate ice cream? Because we typically don't CARE about the subjective feelings that others possess, and certainly not enough to impose laws restricting their freedom. Why should we suppose others suddenly ought to care about our subjective feelings simply because we attach a "morality" label to them?Phinehas
February 11, 2015
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Diogenes
Why should we believe that only gods could be sources of values? We humans create values, so we should take responsibility for what we create.
A couple of things ... First, you state that 'we should take responsibility'. But that's an assumption based on a value. We could create a value that says 'there's no need to take responsiblity for things we create'. That's the problem with human-created values. They're arbitrary and subjective. They don't even need to be logical, rational or consistent. They don't need to exist at all. The second problem is that values require some assessment. Is it the right value or not? Did we act according to the value or not? Who judges such things? As in your value: "we should take responsibility for what we create". Ok, who judges whether we did take responsiblity or not? What happens if we don't take responsibility for the values we create? How do we know we created the right values? If they're the wrong values, should we change them? All of this points to assessment - or judgement. Someone needs to judge. But without 'a god', we only have humans to judge. Humans would be: The lawgivers, creating values that bind the person The person bound by the values The judge, determining whether the person did right or wrong In any case like that, there's a defendant and prosecutor. The defense looks for reasons of innocence. The prosecutor looks for reasons of guilt. The judge makes the final decision. Without 'a god' to create and judge the values - the lawgiver, judge, prosecutor, defense attorney and actor are all the same person. Laws can be changed, loopholes can be established, confusing arguments can remain unsolved, and debates can end with no conclusion. Where there is 'a god' that created and judges the values, there is a reference point for judgement.Silver Asiatic
February 11, 2015
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Me: I’m guessing that you have an active dislike for cruelty, unfairness, and have a positive view of kindness, honesty, that sort of thing. You: I would like to think so. But I imagine Islamic terrorists and and Nazis think the same things about themselves, Left to my own facilities I can’t see anything to insure that my moral opinions are any less twisted than theirs. Can you?
Nothing absolute of course. Just the courage of your convictions! But then, how does calling on objectivity help? How can you be sure you are following the ‘right’ religion, interpreting its strictures correctly, or that its strictures are actually derived from that which is objectively right? If one’s fundamental morality involves principles of kindness and honesty, and deplores cruelty and harm, I really don’t think there’s any point in fretting whether these are ‘twisted’ moral views! We learn, growing up, which actions and behaviours are appropriately termed ‘right’ and ’wrong’, ‘nice’ and ‘naughty’, ‘good’ and ‘evil’. We have a semantic understanding of these concepts. But they don’t readily reduce to a lower definition, nor really a straightforward rationalisation of why one ‘should’ move to the left side of the pairings. But they have certain qualities in common. According to my understanding of the term ‘good’, gassing Jews is clearly not. If a guard were to insist it was, he must have a different semantic understanding than I. John Stuart Mill put it best.
Me: Imagine how you would behave if you were in a ‘God-Proof Box’ You: I expect I would be paralyzed with indecision or worse I would become callous to the effects of my actions upon others.
Best stick with objective morality then! But I don’t see how. Do you only do ‘the right thing’ because you think you are being watched?
Me: Whether my current self is doing something I will later come to consider wrong is certainly possible, but it’s no more a worry than (say) a scientific viewpoint I currently hold becoming untenable. You: Suppose you discover your current behavior to be the equivalent of the guards at Auschwitz would that really be the same as learning that plate tectonics is incorrect? I must say. This laze-fair attitude about something so important to be mystifying and a just a little disturbing to me.
This is the hyperbolic way these discussions always turn! Not every moral question involves genocide or extreme horror, and I seriously doubt anything I’m currently up to is of that order! But the ‘guards at Auschwitz’ thing can be reversed. People are demonstrably susceptible to authority, to brainwashing, to herd mentality. If one surrenders to an external authority in moral matters – an influential pastor, a strong conviction among your co-religionists, a particular holy book – then one is in a different danger, that of mistaking such an influence for the real deal. Exhibit A: ISIS.Hangonasec
February 11, 2015
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DillyGill: Zachriel @ 138 Please feel free to show me where it says in the Bible that in the event of a breakdown of law and order that it is okay to go and gang rape your neighbours family. There's all sorts of examples of approved genocide and enslavement of women throughout the Bible. Typically, the Israelites would attack a town, then kill everyone except for the virgin girls, which they would take as 'wives'. See Numbers 31, Deuteronomy 20, Judges 21, etc. etc. etc. Generally, women are considered spoils of war to be divided up, along with the cattle and dyed cloth. For a theological argument, you might want to read Martin Luther's "On the Jews and their Lies" for a justification for persecution. Luther's arguments were commonly cited well into the twentieth century, such as by Southern Baptists in the U.S. This does not mean we agree with the arguments, only that among the greatest Christian theologians have found these arguments persuasive.Zachriel
February 11, 2015
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diorgenes @141 Let me defend the God of the Bible as though the Bible were true, given that you are attacking Him using his own word, as though it were true. There will be two Holy wars according to the Bible. One has been and gone and the other is yet to come. There was and will be a lot of blood shed at each. Now a Holy war is a scary prospect for a non believer but then we do not need God to have murder and misery on the planet, man does not need that justification, all he needs is support from his fellow man. So while there may have been religious wars fought in the name of Christianity, none of them were sanctioned by God. I understand you finding the blood shed in the OT scary, I do even as a Christian. I think you need to loose the idea that if we could get rid of the concept of God then man would live in peace. It is nieve at best and insane at worst. (john Lennon 'imagine all the people living in harmony' oh please!!!!) It would seem like madness to call God good in one breath and then read about him killing people in the Bible. So what gives? Well be sure not to put God in the 'damned if he does, damned if he doesn't' position because that would be most unfair. So the common complaint from the atheist community is 'wow look at all the suffering in the world, what an evil God the Christians worship' and then when God does act against the wicked of the world to establish a kingdom of his own where his ways can be seen and decides to act against some of the most un-godly people in history the atheist immediately says 'wow what an evil God the Christians worship, look he is killing innocent people. ' Well here is the thing. These were no innocent people that were getting killed. 400 years earlier when Abraham asked why he could not go straight to the promised land (Israel) Gods response was (of the people living there at the time) 'their sins have not piled up to heaven yet' Now did God give them warning and chances? Most likely it does not say though in the Bible. From Gods perspective he equipped us with the knowledge of good and evil (at the fall) and gave us a conscience and so we (they) are with out excuse. The broad outline of the sins that enrage God the most are baby sacrifice, human sacrifice, murder, false God worship, temple prostitution and general sexual immorality including male on male gang rape, rape, general homosexuality and sex with animals (it all goes against the design and purpose of life) So these are the types of people that God demanded be wiped of the face of the earth, think ISIS/ISIL only worse and you start to get the picture. Was it fair that he had them all killed, women and children too? You would have to understand that at the time such an act would require a response from the children (revenge killings) it was the social norm at the time. Also leaving them there in the desert with no men to defend them would have meant either a slow painful death or assimilation into slavery (a truly miserable experience for them) of another nation and that would present problems later on (revenge killings). There were no rehabilitation centres/ mass prisons in those days and some people once they had 'seared their conscience' (the men of these nations commanded to be wiped off the face of the earth) they are unable to come back from it All this so God could have a ground camp and a people to launch the ten commandments and the sending of Jesus Christ. I will get onto the accusation of rape in the Bible shortly, maybe tomorrow. Just remember that God loves righteousness more than his creation. The universe was made for His purposes. We can be the beneficiaries of that or not. The choice is ours https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-SzIJngWqEDillyGill
February 11, 2015
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So, Arrington presupposes that if you disagree with Nietzsche, specifically on the topic of whether only gods can be the basis of values, then you are a "simpering coward" or "sniveling" or whatever is his ad hominem today. From this it logically follows that if Arrington disagrees with Nietzsche on the topic of whether only gods can be the basis of values, then Arrington is a "simpering coward" and "sniveling" and yadda yadda, ad hom ad hom. Arrington really thinks ad hom is evidence for God's existence. So it's syllogistic logic. 1. If anyone disagrees with Nietzsche about atheism, on the topic of whether only gods can be the basis of values, then that person is a sniveling coward. 2. Nietzsche actually says gods NEED NOT be the only basis of values. 3. Arrington believes gods MUST be the only basis of values. 4. (From 2 and 3) Arrington disagrees with Nietzche. (Though he doesn't know that, because Arrington is pig-ignorant of what Nietzsche wrote and gets all his philosophy, like his science, second-hand from fundamentalist ignoramuses.) 5. Therefore, Arrington is a snivelling coward. This follows from 1 and 4. Nietzsche's atheism was the exact opposite of what creationists/fundamentalists say it was: in fact, by accusing Nietzsche of nihilism or relativism, they are falsely ascribing to him beliefs he opposed, indeed, what Nietzsche would call an ungenuine or inauthentic atheism-- they're accusing him of believing exactly that which he considered a "brainwashing" by religion. The irony is extreme. For Nietzsche, the belief that atheism naturally leads to nihilism, and only gods could be the basis of values, was anathema and inauthentic. Religious people conclude that atheism leads to nihilism, because religious people are brainwashed to think that only God can be the basis of values, so if an atheist agrees with that and says, "Oh yeah, I'm an atheist, so I better be a nihilist," then that kind of atheist has actually been brainwashed by religious people. That kind of person is like an escaped hostage with Stockholm syndrome who's been brainwashed by and sympathizes with his/her captors. That is not an authentic atheist. The despicable talking head pundit S. E. "I so wish I weren't an atheist" Cupp comes to mind. For Nietzsche, authentic atheism meant rejecting the belief that only gods could be sources of values, which entailed the rejection of nihilism. Of course this is the exact opposite of what Barry said he said, but that's our Barry. Why should we believe that only gods could be sources of values? We humans create values, so we should take responsibility for what we create. Even in the passage Arrington quotes, Nietzsche says
"The noble type of man regards HIMSELF as a determiner of values; he does not require to be approved of; he passes the judgment"
Arrington, like other creationists/fundamentalists, ignorantly reverses Nietzsche's position. He cites Nietzsche as his authority agreeing with Christians that atheism leads logically to nihilism, since Arrington is trying to prop up the ridiculous Christian belief that only gods can be the basis of morality-- exactly the presupposition that Nietzsche loathed as mere religious brainwashing!
"Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it? There has never been a greater deed; and whoever is born after us — for the sake of this deed he will belong to a higher history than all history hitherto.”
If you want to prop up your absurd belief that only gods can be the basis of morality, do it yourself, but don't cite Nietzsche as your authority on that, because it was the very thing he recognized as religious brainwashing. If you want to brainwash other people into Christian nonsense hate/morality, fine, but Nietzsche recognized this trickery and saw through you frauds. Anyway, there's no positive evidence for the absurd claim that objective morality can be based on the opinions of genocidal Middle Eastern war deities. Opinion is opinion. So all fundies have left is argument from authority, which is bad, but argument from made up authority is worse. But if you're citing an authority you should at least know a little about what they actually SAID, instead of attributing to him beliefs that he dismissed and perceptively recognized as merely religious people's sneaky brainwashing tricks and nothing else. No Christian has ever been able to LOGICALLY prove that gods can be the source of ANY objective morality or value (must less the only source), and philosophers have trashed the idea, so it's DEAD. A moral system equated to the inscrutable opinions of genocidal baby-murdering gods is no more "objective" than a moral system equated to the inscrutable opinions of genocidal baby-murdering human tyrants. No Christian has ever proven the moral perfection of their genocidal baby-murdering war deity (the ontological argument is based on equivocation), so Christians just invoke circular logic, "Whatever a genocidal baby-murdering war deity does we will define to be perfect", DUH. The God of the Bible orders genocide and infanticide and sanctions slavery and the rape of war captives, so no Christian can ever claim that values based on the Christian god's will are "objective morality" until the day a Christian can prove the moral perfection of genocide, infanticide, slavery and the rape of war captives. That day is not today. Thus no objective morality can be logically derived from theism, except possibly where it shares premises with atheism. It is the Christian who is stuck with nihilism, left conceiving of himself as (to paraphrase Rushdoony) a mere gibbering baboon strapped to an electric chair, with no agency and no options in a universe of brute "facts" that make no sense and can never be explained, and threatened eternally by an overwhelming, inscrutable, irrational, hostile, violent, psychopathic power. The Christian is left with nihilism shoved down his throat. Any Christian who does not recognize this irrefutable fact is a simpering, sniveling, castrated, sundress wearing, tea party with stuffed animals pretending, girly man coward. Yes I mean you, Barry.Diogenes
February 11, 2015
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Zachriel @ 138 Please feel free to show me where it says in the Bible that in the event of a breakdown of law and order that it is okay to go and gang rape your neighbours family. Or name any theologian that says that You are right that people can find justifications for their actions and it does not have to be consistent with what they believe, but then it is just a justification and you would have to wonder if they really believed it in the first place. That said I would prefer my neighbours to all be God fearing Christians in the example I gave and the society at large to be God fearing Christians than what we have right now (and marching further away from being God fearing) The odd thing about the ten commandments I have found by trying my best to live by them is they bring the very thing we all (most people) crave, freedom! Who would have thought it, following certain rules brings freedom. I know in my hedonistic days I thought the path to freedom was shaking off my responsibilities, I can now see I was wrong. God exists, the evidence from science tells us so. You can dismiss that on a technicality if you want and call it 'not science' (the philosophical commitment to materialism prior to the evidence being handed in) however that does not make you right and adds to the problem of dealing with reality. Stare into the abyss because that is where we are marching!DillyGill
February 10, 2015
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Hangonasec says, Probably not. They aren’t all that fickle, and I have no particular reason to see them as ‘broken’. I say, Well that is apparently a difference between us. What I see often is the following scenario played out quote: Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. (Rom 2:1) end quote: doesn't that sort of thing ever happen to you? You say, If I realise I’m wrong, I change – or at least, apologise! I say, To apologize is admirable but often insufficient don't you agree? As for changing I often find that I make a commitment to change a behavior only to find myself back at it again when my guard is down. Don't you? You say, But, I cannot anticipate every consequence or control every variable. I say, Agreed the problem I have is with things I can control yet don't. Of course at the time I don't have any problem justifying my actions to myself. you say, I’m guessing that you have an active dislike for cruelty, unfairness, and have a positive view of kindness, honesty, that sort of thing. I say, I would like to think so. But I imagine Islamic terrorists and and Nazis think the same things about themselves, Left to my own facilities I can't see anything to insure that my moral opinions are any less twisted than theirs. Can you? You say, Imagine how you would behave if you were in a ‘God-Proof Box’ I say, I expect I would be paralyzed with indecision or worse I would become callous to the effects of my actions upon others. I know that I would not have any confidence in the rightness of my actions. you say, Whether my current self is doing something I will later come to consider wrong is certainly possible, but it’s no more a worry than (say) a scientific viewpoint I currently hold becoming untenable. I say, Suppose you discover your current behavior to be the equivalent of the guards at Auschwitz would that really be the same as learning that plate tectonics is incorrect? I must say. This laze-fair attitude about something so important to be mystifying and a just a little disturbing to me. peacefifthmonarchyman
February 10, 2015
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DillyGill: Mostly true, however a justification for that in the Bible does not exist. And yet some of history's greatest theologians disagree with your assessment.Zachriel
February 10, 2015
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Thanks for the answer Zachriel I was a bit worried it might have been too extreme! Zachriel 'People find justification for their actions, and that they might hold a Bible or Koran in their hands doesn’t change this.' Mostly true, however a justification for that in the Bible does not exist. So true faith in the Bible does change it. There is a difference between strong faith in the Bible and proffesing Christianity. I would like to think it is just time but it is not always. Zachriel 'There is no evidence of that. Rather, it appears that humans love some and hate some, then they find justification for their actions.' In fact there is evidence of that. In the UK when they had the Mark Dugan riots (or what ever his name was) a whole bunch of people with everyday moral standards got caught up in the looting because they thought they were going to get away with it. If they had truly feared the Lord, they would not have done it. Zachriel 'Social stability appears to be more important than some philosophical distinction' Social stability is not assured, what we teach our children will have an impact on their lives and the type of society they find themselves in. We are headed to a totalitarian police state, and then who will watch the watchers? You know, the ones with all the power and subjective morality! Have you seen the film 'The purge' ? And part 2? any thoughts?DillyGill
February 10, 2015
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DillyGill: Do you think that if as a nation we had taught the truth about what the evidence from science really says about God, that morality is an objective truth and there are eternal consequences for actions and rebellion against God, would you think it more likely or less likely that you would find this gang of people at your door? People find justification for their actions, and that they might hold a Bible or Koran in their hands doesn't change this. DillyGill: It is all very well playing fast and loose with words while the majority share some waning principles about what is right and wrong but it if you teach people morality is subjective they will behave like it when they have the chance, if you teach people they are nothing more than highly evolved animals they will behave like it eventually There is no evidence of that. Rather, it appears that humans love some and hate some, then they find justification for their actions. DillyGill: law and order Social stability appears to be more important than some philosophical distinction.Zachriel
February 10, 2015
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Zachriel @ 132 Indulge me a little, lets say there is a total break down in law and order (not to hard to imagine) and an armed gang turn up at your door saying they want to share their value of gang rape with your family. Do you think that if as a nation we had taught the truth about what the evidence from science really says about God, that morality is an objective truth and there are eternal consequences for actions and rebellion against God, would you think it more likely or less likely that you would find this gang of people at your door? and more or less likely that your neighbors would be willing to help you out of your predicament? It is all very well playing fast and loose with words while the majority share some waning principles about what is right and wrong but it if you teach people morality is subjective they will behave like it when they have the chance, if you teach people they are nothing more than highly evolved animals they will behave like it eventually You might be very surprised at what lurks in your neighbors heart. Dont forget it is much easier to be good when things are good and there is law and order and your needs are being met.DillyGill
February 10, 2015
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Phinehas, I see your point. It is indeed inconsiderate of civil rights advocates to work for equal justice when the legal consequences of their actions offend some who oppose such actions. However, nobody is threatening those persons with imprisonment or torture unless they recant.Daniel King
February 10, 2015
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Wait. Are you saying that this is an example of NOT insisting that your moral position be inflicted on others? Seriously?
Indeed. I couldn't care less about what you think is moral. As long as it is legal I don't mind at all what you think.hrun0815
February 10, 2015
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Florabama: Zachriel @124 when the relativists make statements like, “we are trying to live ‘rationally, morally and ethically,’ ” and “we don’t murder and rape,” or even when they say, “it is wrong,” they reveal that they believe in an absolute standard that they profess to reject. No, it just means they are using the English language in a conventional manner while referring to widely shared moral sensibilities. Florabama: There is no such thing as “shared values.” Not everyone shares every value, but some people share some values. When people share values, they can then reason as to how to apply those values in various situations.Zachriel
February 10, 2015
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DK:
Are you so obtuse that you don’t understand that a person can have a moral position without insisting that it be inflicted upon others? Take gay marriage. A person can believe that it’s moral and work to change laws to allow it on constitutional grounds.
Wait. Are you saying that this is an example of NOT insisting that your moral position be inflicted on others? Seriously?Phinehas
February 10, 2015
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DK:
Phin: What I don’t get is why they think anyone else ought to care about what they subjectively feel is WRONG any more than about what they subjectively feel about ice cream. DK: Nobody asked anyone to CARE. Are you so obtuse that you don’t understand that a person can have a moral position without insisting that it be inflicted upon others?
Right. So, you weren't asking anyone to care when you wrote this?
You can’t be that thick, Murray. By their own subjective moral standards, being banned for disagreement is WRONG. And that’s what they’ve been saying all along.
Are you certain you weren't trying to inflict any sort of moral position at all on others? You weren't carrying any greater expectation than had you declared your favorite ice cream flavor? Do you often find yourself calling others "thick" or "obtuse" when discussing ice cream flavors? Face it: you are practically begging for someone to care about your point of view. Well, here's your chance. I'd love to hear more about moral positions that are never inflicted on others. How does that work exactly? Show me someone who actually treats morality like that, and I'll gladly admit that there is at least one subjectivist that isn't logically inconsistent.Phinehas
February 10, 2015
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Zachriel @124 when the relativists make statements like, "we are trying to live 'rationally, morally and ethically,' ” and "we don't murder and rape," or even when they say, "it is wrong," they reveal that they believe in an absolute standard that they profess to reject. What is moral and ethical? Where does the standard come from that against which we may measure our actions to see if we are indeed behaving, rationally, morally and ethically? There is no such thing as "shared values." Nietzsche didn't share those values. Marquis de Sade didn't share those values. Slave owners didn't share those values. The Supreme Court when it ruled that Blacks were subhuman or that babies in the womb could be killed for convenience sake, didn't share those values. Hitler, Marx, Lenin, Mao and Stalin didn't share those values. The KKK didn't share those values. Islamic terrorists don't share those values. Peter Singer (humans should die for the sake of animals) doesn't share those values. The rapist and the pedophile don't share those values. The serial killer doesn't share those values. Why are they wrong? Why should they adopt your "shared values?" Why are your values better than theirs?Florabama
February 10, 2015
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Barry Arrington- This is off-topic but you may like it as it proves keith s was wrong when it comes to nested hierarchies- and for the reasons I stated:
The goals of scientists like Linnaeus and Cuvier- to organize the chaos of life’s diversity- are much easier to achieve if each species has a Platonic essence that distinguishes it from all others, in the same way that the absence of legs and eyelids is essential to snakes and distinguishes it from other reptiles. In this Platonic worldview, the task of naturalists is to find the essence of each species. Actually, that understates the case: In an essentialist world, the essence really [I]is[/I] the species. Contrast this with an ever-changing evolving world, where species incessantly spew forth new species that can blend with each other. The snake [I]Eupodophis[/I] from the late Cretaceous period, which had rudimentary legs, and the glass lizard, which is alive today and lacks legs, are just two of many witnesses to the blurry boundaries of species. Evolution’s messy world is anathema to the clear, pristine order essentialism craves. It is thus no accident that Plato and his essentialism became the “great antihero of evolutionism,” as the twentieth century zoologist Ernst Mayr called it.- Andreas Wagner, “Arrival of the Fittest”, pages 9-10
Anathema and the great anti-hero- nested hierarchy and evolutionism do not mixJoe
February 10, 2015
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fmm @118
I say, Ok so what?
So you asked a question and I answered. I didn’t expect the Spanish Inquisition! :D
I know that my moral sensibilities change often and not always for the best reasons I assume that is the experience of the subjectivist as well.
I’m not convinced yours change that often, at least not in fundamentals. I’m guessing that you have an active dislike for cruelty, unfairness, and have a positive view of kindness, honesty, that sort of thing. How we interpret specific moral questions in light of those things may vary. But in these discussions we rarely get onto specific moral questions, apart from ‘the obvious’ – the ones on which we agree anyway.
What I want to know is once you know that your personal moral sensibilities are fickle and broken what do you as a subjectivist do? Perhaps you have never been faced with this reality.
Probably not. They aren’t all that fickle, and I have no particular reason to see them as ‘broken’. If I realise I'm wrong, I change - or at least, apologise!
You say, [...] I’m asking what you do now that you know that what you think is morally OK today has a good chance of causing others pain and you terrible regret tomorrow.
If I really think something I do today has a good chance of causing others pain and me terrible regret tomorrow, then it’s not going to be something I consider morally OK today! But, I cannot anticipate every consequence or control every variable. In the instance in question, my assessment was incorrect, as adjudicated by my later self. Whether my current self is doing something I will later come to consider wrong is certainly possible, but it's no more a worry than (say) a scientific viewpoint I currently hold becoming untenable.
[...] That is why I despair of ever knowing what the moral thing is unless it is revealed to me. I’m an objectivist not because I’m sure of myself but because I doubt myself. I just don’t have enough confidence in my own opinions to be a subjectivist. Apparently self doubt is not something you struggle with.
Well, I’d beware of making too much of a snap judgement based on a few words on the internet! But I guess it boils down to the fundamental question of why do we want to be moral in the first place? It appears to me to be a fundamental part of human nature, to ascribe these labels ‘good’ and ‘bad’ to our behaviours, mostly relating to behaviour affecting other people in some way. We attach them to our own behaviour, and to that of others, almost instinctively. But also, we learn. We are taught what is ‘naughty’ and what is ‘nice’ as children. We have role models (and Jesus certainly ain’t a bad one)! But that lump in your throat when you see an act of kindness, or that sense of anger when you see injustice – we nearly all ‘feel’ it. It’s fundamentally human. We seek good feelings and avoid bad ones. That creates inevitable tension with our desires, and is not the same as saying we 'should' all just pursue hedonism. Imagine how you would behave if you were in a ‘God-Proof Box’ (hey, I’ve found the title of my next album!). I don't think it would change fundamentally. I grew up in the 'other camp', but I still had good role models and learnt values. I simply look to those qualities that I admire in others and aim, to some degree, to emulate them. Simply because ‘it’s nice to be nice’, even if that does earn one the contempt of certain blog owners. If nihilism is simply the antonym of objective morality, then I’m a nihilist by definition, but that doesn’t mean I don’t value these things.Hangonasec
February 10, 2015
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DK:
A person can believe that it’s moral and work to change laws to allow it on constitutional grounds.
LoL! Gay marriage even goes against natural selection. Go figure... Perhaps we should cave in to all minority positions.Joe
February 10, 2015
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Florabama - Subjectivism /= Relativism.Hangonasec
February 10, 2015
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Florabama: How else to explain their appeal to absolute morality, not just on things like rape and murder but even down to how the owner of this site might treat them. The general thrust is to argue to shared values, not "absolute morality".Zachriel
February 10, 2015
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I honestly think this may be the dumbest thing I’ve ever read. I thought you should know.
Would you care to elaborate which aspect of that post warrants that scorn? What do you actually disagree with? Is it that somebody can have a moral position without insisting it be inflicted on others? That seems pretty uncontroversial. Is it that somebody can have a moral position they believe in to the point that they want to change the law of the land but do not actually want to convince others that it is moral? Again, that is just obviously true. Or do you disagree that morality and civil rights are not necessarily congruent. You seriously can't disagree with that, right?hrun0815
February 9, 2015
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I've come to believe that the materialists in this thread don't understand words. They believe in subjective, objective morals. They believe in non-transcendent transcendence. How else to explain their appeal to absolute morality, not just on things like rape and murder but even down to how the owner of this site might treat them. They just can't face the fact that in the world they say they believe in, one person's opinion on how to behave is just as morally valid as the next persons hence there is no right and wrong -- there is only opinion.Florabama
February 9, 2015
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I’m an objectivist not because I’m sure of myself but because I doubt myself. I just don’t have enough confidence in my own opinions to be a subjectivist.
Brilliantly put. Spot on.
Apparently self doubt is not something you struggle with.
As well as other materialists. Pure fact, paraded around here daily.Brent
February 9, 2015
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Sorry Daniel, but . . .
Nobody asked anyone to CARE. Are you so obtuse that you don’t understand that a person can have a moral position without insisting that it be inflicted upon others? Take gay marriage. A person can believe that it’s moral and work to change laws to allow it on constitutional grounds. That does not entail convincing anyone else that it is moral. Morality and civil rights are not necessarily congruent.
I honestly think this may be the dumbest thing I've ever read. I thought you should know.Brent
February 9, 2015
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Youtube: Why is modern art so bad ? Keywords: "aesthetic relativism", "decline of artistic standards", "no standards", "only personal expression", "no universal standard of quality" and so forth.Box
February 9, 2015
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Hangonasec said, To a subjectivist, ‘the right thing’ comes from a complex mix of self-esteem, empathy and standing among peers. To the objectivist, it is an eternal matter. To take a caricatured view, ‘getting it wrong’ involves fire and brimstone and eternal torment. I say, Ok so what? My concern was not about eternal torment it was about what you do practically in the here and now when you realize your moral sensibilities can't be trusted. I want to do the right thing I would assume that the subjectivist wants that as well. I know that my moral sensibilities change often and not always for the best reasons I assume that is the experience of the subjectivist as well. What I want to know is once you know that your personal moral sensibilities are fickle and broken what do you as a subjectivist do? Perhaps you have never been faced with this reality. You say, Should I feel angst because my moral view on the matter changed? I say, I'm not only talking about the guilt you feel for what you did to your child. I'm asking what you do now that you know that what you think is morally OK today has a good chance of causing others pain and you terrible regret tomorrow. You say, Would I have a different, less malleable view if I were an objective moralist? I say, Again I agree that my moral sensibilities are malleable. That is my whole point That is why I despair of ever knowing what the moral thing is unless it is revealed to me. I'm an objectivist not because I'm sure of myself but because I doubt myself. I just don't have enough confidence in my own opinions to be a subjectivist. Apparently self doubt is not something you struggle with. Peacefifthmonarchyman
February 9, 2015
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