Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

The “Skeptical” Zone, Where You Can Be Skeptical of Anything (Except Currently Fashionable Intellectual Dogmas)

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For those of you who do not know, some months ago Elizabeth Liddle started the website known as The Skeptical Zone (TSZ). The site has a sort of symbiotic relationship with UD, because many, if not most, of the posts there key off our posts here.

Not only does TSZ have a name that invokes a skeptical turn of mind, it also has a motto apparently intended to bolster that attitude: “I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible that you may be mistaken.” The motto is taken from Oliver Cromwell’s August 5, 1650 letter to the synod of the Church of Scotland urging them to break their alliance with royalist forces.

Now with a name and a motto like that, one might think the site is home to iconoclastic non-conformists bent on disrupting the status quo. But you would be wrong. I just finished pursuing the articles that have been posted at TSZ during the last six months. Among the regular posters there I found not a single article that even mildly criticized (far less expressed skepticism toward) a single dogma one would expect to be held by the denizens of the faculty lounge at a typical university.

Atheism. It’s true

Neo-Darwinian Synthesis. Fact beyond the slightest doubt

Philosophical materialism. Check

It seems that the regular posters at TSZ are skeptical of everything but the received wisdom, accepted conventions and cherished dogmas of the academic left. Perhaps they should change the name of the site ever so slightly to The “Skeptical” Zone. The irony quotes would make the name more honest.

Here’s a clue to the TSZ posters: If you want to be a real skeptic, perhaps you should challenge the beliefs of the secular elite that dominate our universities instead of marching in lockstep with them. The true skeptics of the early twenty-first century are those willing to take on the dogmas of the academic elite, people like Bill Dembski, Michael Behe, and Jonathan Wells.

The posters at The Skeptical Zone are skeptical alright.  They are skeptical of skeptics.  As for their motto, they certainly think it is possible that someone might be mistaken – anyone who disagrees with them or questions their deeply held beliefs.

Why don’t the posters at TSZ see the glaringly obvious irony of their enterprise? I was thinking about this question when I ran across a post by Matt Emerson over at FT. Emerson writes about how the dogmas of secularism act as a type of “revelation” that boxes in thinking in a way secularist thinkers probably don’t even perceive at a conscious level.  Emerson writes:

Even among those who declare no connection with God, reason operates under what amounts to a kind of revelation. These skeptics don’t conceive of revelation in the same way that I do as a Catholic, but for many, the ultimate source of an epistemological “guide” does not matter: Certain perceived facts, or certain foundational positions, hold the same thetical value for them as the Bible does for many Christians. For these men and women, as for the medievals, it might be technically possible to reason “outside” these givens, but why would they? To ask them to reason as if those givens were not true would be akin to asking a Christian to reason apart from the Incarnation. It just doesn’t make any sense.

Comments
Joe: They have been headlined for what they have done. I infer that it is no accident that this is happening six months after the Darwin essay challenge was issued with a free shot at goal and not one serious taker. Nothing on substance multiplied by slander and the worst kind of invidious association, multiplied by enabling. Sad, and sadly telling. The marker is there, for reference. Let us see if Dr Liddle has the decency and the gumption to fix what is so seriously wrong at TSZ. KFkairosfocus
April 2, 2013
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kairosfocus, Did you really expect anything else from that bunch of equivocating losers? Really?Joe
April 2, 2013
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A tour of shame for OM, RTH and EL of TSZ. KFkairosfocus
April 2, 2013
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Incidentally, WJM, this SETI thread from a couple of years ago may be worth revisiting. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/are-we-alone-identifying-intelligence-with-seti/Eric Anderson
April 1, 2013
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WJM @250 and 260: Sounds like an interesting approach. I might have to check it out.
I mean, there used to be no way to find out there was information in a broadband signal unless you had the decoding side of the semiotic system.
I'm not sure that is strictly true. When we've stumbled across written artifacts from long-lost civilizations we've eventually been able to decode them -- if we have enough samples to work from. Same goes for any kind of code cracking. Of course in these situations, there is a specific object/string and good reason to think the object/string contains information, so a lot of effort is put into cracking the code/language. Forensics can decipher a lot of signals, even if the decoding side isn't initially known up front. I think the practical problem for SETI is that the sheer volume of transmissions they are receiving doesn't lend itself to a detailed forensic-style investigation of each and every signal. So SETI is really not in a position to do a detailed needle-in-a-haystack type of search (although technology is catching up to where that may be more feasible). Instead SETI is hoping an information-rich signal will hit them over the head, so to speak, and shout "Here I am!" Of course a signal sent with the intent of a third party deciphering it (e.g., the Contact string of primes) would be very easy to recognize as information and decipher. The harder situation would be if the alien civilization isn't trying to communicate with us and all we get are their stray reality TV and rap music signals. In that case, it may indeed be difficult to distinguish them from sheer noise. :)Eric Anderson
April 1, 2013
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petrushka:
Biological evolution is pretty much a continuous process of optimization.
Yet bw evolution is supposed to be the best explanation for suboptimal design. Talk about just saying anything...Joe
April 1, 2013
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kairosfocus- There appears to be something more recent- or perhaps something Meyer didn't cover. I don't know. All petrushka is good for are bald assertions, false accusations and equivocations. For example, just today pet sed:
When we want to solve high-dimensional problems we turn to evolutionary algorithms.
And those are examples of Intelligent Design Evolution, not blind watchmaker evolution. That said, by way of DNA Jock's hints, it could be something related to Jack Szostak's work- something we are allegedly dismissing out-of-hand.Joe
April 1, 2013
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F/N: I should note that it is a general fact of codes that some symbols will characteristically be more common and others less so. This BTW means the more common signals and those that have the sort of near 100% correlation, will convey relatively little info. In English text about 1/8 of text is an E. Hence, a very worn key on my PC. KFkairosfocus
April 1, 2013
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Joe, doesn't Signature in the Cell do just that, c. 2009 -- there being AFAIK little substantial change in t4eh situation since then? KFkairosfocus
April 1, 2013
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JWT, that depends on a critical piece of being a DESIGNER. Choice towards purpose or goals. Once A has real power of choice, the design is its own. In that sense of transitivity, J has made A directly or indirectly, and A makes B by A's decision. A is not a programmed robot. That takes us into some deep waters, with oodles of issues lurking such as the problem of good/evil. For that, I suggest Plantinga's free will defense is a watershed. Another issue is, the reality of mind with purpose. I suggest that any species of mechanical determinism [even if it allows for chance influences . . . ] ends up in self referential incoherence. Oddly, this does not obtain for a view that holds that grace is given to some to shift motives and attitudes, which frees them to ever more rise above a tendency to evil. KFkairosfocus
April 1, 2013
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petrushka wants to know:
And has anyone in the ID movement actually addressed current OOL research?
Yes, it doesn't look good for you guys. If you want a more specified answer then please ask a specific question- which research, all of it? Is there any particular research that you think looks promising for blind and undirected processes?Joe
April 1, 2013
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HOW are the numbers presented?
When I got them, they are presented on an A4 sheet in point 9 Arial.
Well, if you are involved then the whole thing is already a huge FAIL
My sheet of random numbers has now somehow got mixed up with the sheet of paper with the numbers on that SETI asked me to look at.
If SETI is asking you to do anything it would be to take out their trash.
If only there was some way to determine which sheet’s numbers, if any, were in fact intelligently designed.
Just ask SETI to resend their numbers or go there and get them- never mind. You couldn't find your butt if you had a map.Joe
April 1, 2013
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I mean, there used to be no way to find out there was information in a broadband signal unless you had the decoding side of the semiotic system. With this guy's method, you could at least find out if there was information encoded in some type of language in the signal.William J Murray
April 1, 2013
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The guy on the show had a pretty good argument why "narrow band" transmission isn't something we should be looking for because it's probably non-existent as far as extraterrestrial communication. He argued that they'd be using broad band for the same reasons we do - harder to lose an entire message, and you can put much more information into a broadband signal. SETI has been looking for "narrow band" signatures because that was the only thing they could look for, because up until this guy's discovery there was no way to find information in a broadband signal. The whole show, however, was how you could pick out the signs of intelligently ordered information from what was otherwise random broadband noise.William J Murray
April 1, 2013
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petrushka:
Actually, SETI is just looking for a narrow band transmission, something for which there is no known natural source, SETI is not looking for a message.
So if they received a message they would just discard it?
Case A: A series of numbers are receieved by SETI on a tight band.
Someone speaking the numbers? HOW are the numbers presented? If it was a tight band then I would suspoect agency involvement. Natural signals tend to bleed all over the place.Joe
April 1, 2013
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In your example: If (A is designed by B) AND (B is designed by J) does it follow that A is designed by J? That's what I mean by "transitive relation".JWTruthInLove
April 1, 2013
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And cupcake hughes chimes in:
Should we look at the CSI of CAEK again?
You would just choke on it again. So why bother?Joe
April 1, 2013
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Earth to OM- I have walked you through how IDists- well anyone actually- determine design from not. IDists have provided the parameters of what we say is designed. OTOH your position has provided absolutely NOTHING. And your ignorance "ID can be inferred from anything" (really?) is duly noted. And then OM prattles on about FSCI/O- dude, Shannon told us how to break text strings down into bits. And just because you are too dense to count doesn't mean other people cannot do so. Heck I have shown you how to measure information on my blog. How many times does this stuff have to be explained to that ilk?Joe
April 1, 2013
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JWT: Greetings on Resurrection Monday. That B designs A does not mean that B is or is not designed in turn. If B is a necessary being, B is not designed, otherwise, I have reason to hold B to be designed in turn, pointing to some J, who is an ontologically necessary -- and so eternal -- being. KFkairosfocus
April 1, 2013
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@kairosfocus: Happy Easter! Would you categorize "a IS DESIGNED BY b" as a transitive relation or a non-transitive relation?JWTruthInLove
April 1, 2013
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Never wonder why ID seems to be built on what Darwinism can’t do Barry? It isn’t. Eliminating necessity and chance are mandated by science. LOL. It has the timbre of the sovereignly-dismissive epigram about it, Joe! 'Eliminating necessity and chance are mandated by science! However, you do need to keep to words of no more than two syllables in these exchanges with protein-soup 'bitter-enders', as necessity continues to mandate that they emerge, blinking, into the sunlight.Axel
April 1, 2013
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William J Murray, there is something along that line for DNA here: Skittle: A 2-Dimensional Genome Visualization Tool - Josiah D Seaman and John C Sanford http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2105/10/452/ The first few minutes of this following video goes over Skittle Multidimensional Genome - Dr. Robert Carter http://www.metacafe.com/watch/8905048/multidimensional_genome_dr_robert_carter/bornagain77
April 1, 2013
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Joe: It seems that providing of actual examples of a phenomenon [in a context that implies or provides counter examples] should suffice to establish its reality. FSCO/I is real on billions of text strings, programs, and organised functional entities dependent on specific organisation to operate. The attempt to deny obvious and easily observed facts, is not a sign of intellectual health on the part of objectors. And if the concern is on quantification, we have ever so many cases where we measure functional bits or equivalent. Introduce the reasonable threshold and the implication of functional specificity [isolation of effective configs to target zones or islands in the config space of raw possibilities], and we have that FSCO/I is beyond 500 - 1,000 bits, and is functionally specific organisation that is in principle reducible to descriptive strings or is in the form of strings to begin with. metrics can be introduced, and the one advanced should be enough: Chi_500 = I*S - 500, bits beyond the solar system threshold. Refusal to acknowledge such is inadvertently revealing that once such is accepted, the implications are so obvious that every effort must be taken at any cost to lock out FSCO/I. So, questions are being begged through selective hyperskepticism. Game over. KFkairosfocus
April 1, 2013
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I was watching the science channel and they had a guy that formulated a means to determine whether or not a string of information was a language of some sort that conveyed information. It worked on all languages and supposedly it was used to determine that dolphins actually have a language they use to transmit information. This article: http://www.space.com/12811-dolphin-intelligence-search-extraterrestrial-life.html ... refers to it as a "-1 slope", but the show called it the 45 degree angle. Essentially, when you plotted the words, sounds, or sections of data, a flat graph (or nearly flat) indicated a random distribution of "terms" (or sounds, text, e-m noise, etc.), but when there are repeated "terms" as in a language, the graph always shows a 45 degree angle for "most repeated", "next most repeated", etc., terms. The show was about how to recognize meaningful information from extraterrestrial sources. I was wondering if this could be applied to DNA sequences.William J Murray
April 1, 2013
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We need to see what it is we are actually trying to determine is designed.
Yes, I can see that you need to see if the thing you are trying to determine is designed or not before you determine if it is designed, or not.
Yes, that is how SCIENCE works. By actually being able to study the thing we are trying to make a determination about. Do forensic scientists work absent a crime scene to put together a crime they don't even know happened? om is April's fool....Joe
April 1, 2013
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other mouth:
Yes, I can see that you need to see if the thing you are trying to determine is designed or not before you determine if it is designed, or not. So if you see one of any billions of messages on the internet and understand it, it’s designed. If you see one and you don’t understand it, it’s obviously not designed.
Yup, that sums up your strawman/ limited ability to grasp anything. You just can’t pull numbers from the sky and say “designed or not”. What do those numbers represent? Why are we even investigating in the first place?
Yes, if you know what the numbers represent you can make a determination of design.
Non-sequitur.
They can’t make a determination solely on the basis of the provided evidence for design or not.
OM thinks it just refuted archaeology, foensic science, SETI and evolutionism! Nice job.
According to Joe, if SETI received a string of numbers “from the sky” until they knew what those numbers represented they would not be able to determine design.
When all else fails start with false accusations- No, moron. It would all depend on how those numbers were received. In a tight band or bleeding on every channel. As I said CONTEXT is everything in science. And you, being scientifically illiterate, just don't get it.
What if we have no referent for what those numbers represent...
Why would anyone be investigating? There has to be a REASON- what is it?Joe
April 1, 2013
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LoL! OM thinks that a random number generator- something DESIGNED to provide random numbers = blind and undirected processes. OM, CONTEXT is important. If someone went into a cave and saw ASCII on the cave wall, would they think erosion didit? Or would they think some agency did it? other mouth:
Then there is no need to calculate FSCI/O as the mere fact a file is formatted in ASCII proves that the contents represented by those symbols is designed.
Non-sequitur. We need to see what it is we are actually trying to determine is designed. You just can't pull numbers from the sky and say "designed or not". What do those numbers represent? Why are we even investigating in the first place? IOW once again you have demonstrated that you don't know the first thing about science. And nice job "refuting" archaeology, forensic science, SETI and evolutionism.Joe
April 1, 2013
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And the other mouth proves it is clueless:
Rather it’s that any data represented in ascii format is therefore designed.
That has nothing to do with it. CONTEXT means everything in science. BTW you do realize that archaeology depends on being able to determine design from not. As does forensic science. AND even YOUR position depends on it. So please, go around the internet and see if you can any scientist from any of those venues to take up your "challenge".Joe
April 1, 2013
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other mouth:
Just like KF’s “billions of messages online” prove FSCI/O exists and is created by designers and life has FSCI/O so therefore life is designed.
Umm, wrt SCIENCE, that is called establishing cause and effect relationships. That must be what has om all in a tither. Ya see om, if we ever observe blind and undirected processes producing FSCI/O then we can no longer use it to determine design. It is that simple. But we never have. To date the only process known to give rise to FSCI/O is agency activity. 100% of the time.Joe
April 1, 2013
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PS: Dembski on limitations of NS in a context of CSI and thus FSCO/I, here. Title: Why Natural Selection can't design anything." KFkairosfocus
April 1, 2013
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