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The Squid and the Supernova: A Reply to Professor Egnor

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In February 1987, a supernova appeared in the Southern skies, and remained visible for several months. Giant squid, with their large, powerful eyes, must have seen it, too. But if you believe that the act of perception takes place at the object, as Professor Egnor argues in his perspicacious reply to my last post, then you will have to maintain that the squid’s perception of the stellar explosion took place at the location of the supernova itself: somewhere in the Large Magellanic Cloud, a galaxy about 168,000 light years from Earth. The problem is that the object itself ceased to exist nearly 200 millennia ago, long before the dawn of human history. Even if the squid that witnessed the explosion were capable of having perceptions which are located in intergalactic space, as Egnor contends, they are surely incapable of having perceptions which go back in time.

Before I continue, I would like to compliment Professor Egnor on his latest post, which is nothing less than a literary tour de force. I wish I could write even half as well. The author’s learning and depth of thought are abundantly evident. And although I believe he is wrong, he is at least nobly wrong, for he has succeeded in highlighting a genuine philosophical problem concerning perception: namely, the puzzle of how we can have reliable knowledge of the external world. (Egnor’s original article can be viewed here; see here for my reply.)

Briefly, Egnor contends that even if perception takes place at the location of the sensory organ (a view I defended in my previous post), and not in the subject’s brain, it is still cut off from objects located in the outside world; hence, it can afford us no sure knowledge of the outside world. Additionally, Aristotle’s insistence that perception involves the observer being made like the object she observes, and even possessing this object, only makes sense if the observer makes contact with the object. For these reasons, Egnor holds that his account of perception is the only one which is both true to the teaching of Aristotle and able to explain how we can have genuine knowledge of the external world (bold emphases mine – VJT):

The crux of Aristotle’s theory of perception is that the perceiver “is made like the object and has acquired its quality” (DA II 5)… One is made like an object and acquires its quality by encountering the object, not by watching a movie about the object…

If perception does not occur at the object — if it begins only at the sense organ or the brain — then there is no encounter between perceiver and perceived. If perception begins at the sense organ, and not at the object, then only the sensory stimulus, not the object, is perceived.

In the Aristotelian view, the perception of an object is the possession of its form. This includes its accidental forms as well as its substantial form. Location is an accidental form (Organon 1b25-2a4). Thus, in my interpretation, possession of an object entails possession of its location — perception of an object occurs at the location of the object.

There are deeper problems with the notion that perception occurs only at the sense organs and brain. Let us imagine that the Cartesian theater is real and perception occurs only in sense organs and the brain. In this scenario, we only have direct knowledge of our perceptions themselves; we never have direct knowledge of the objects perceived. And in this Cartesian theater, there can be no reliable knowledge of the external world whatsoever, because any attempt at confirmation of knowledge by correlating internal perception with external reality is rendered moot by my inability to perceive the outside world directly. We are trapped inside the theater, and we can’t get out. The Cartesian theater leaves us practically and even theoretically unable to know reality…

And locating perception in the senses, or in the brain and the senses, doesn’t solve the problem, it merely makes the Cartesian theater a little more spacious. Either your knowledge of the world is limited by your skull or it’s limited by your skin. Either way, you’re trapped in solipsism.

Although I made it quite clear in my original post that I reject the notion of a “theater in the brain” where a homunculus views the sensory data which my brain receives, I think it is fair to say that Professor Egnor has exposed a problem with the account I put forward: namely, that it fails to adequately explain how we manage to encounter objects, when we perceive them.

Responding to my objection that the notion of perception occurring at a distance from the observer was simply too bizarre to be true, Professor Egnor proceeds to turn the tables, by pointing out that the Newtonian notion of action at a distance (which scientists came to accept in the seventeenth century) is equally bizarre:

Perception at a distance is no more inconceivable than action at a distance. The notion that a perception of the moon occurs at the moon is “bizarre” (Torley’s word) only if one presumes that perception is constrained by distance and local conditions — perhaps perception would get tired if it had to go to the moon or it wouldn’t be able to go because it’s too cold there. Yet surely the view that the perception of a rose held up to my eye was located at the rose wouldn’t be deemed nearly as bizarre. At what distance does perception of an object at the object become inconceivable?

It is quite true that early theories of gravity and electromagnetism were forced to appeal to the outlandish notion of action at a distance, in order to describe how an object responds to the influence of distant objects. Newton himself had no idea how it could happen, but he famously refused to speculate, writing: “I have not as yet been able to discover the reason for these properties of gravity from phenomena, and I do not feign hypotheses.” Modern physics, however, has dispensed with the need for such a counterintuitive notion, thanks to the development of the concept of a field, which mediates interactions between objects across empty space.

What’s wrong with perception – and action – occurring at a distance from the subject?

In my reply to Egnor’s original article, I did indeed object that the notion of perception taking place at a distance from the observer was a bizarre one; but in addition to that, I put forward a philosophical argument, designed to show that the notion was not only bizarre, but nonsensical. In a nutshell, my argument was that perception is a bodily event, and that an event involving my body cannot take place at a point which is separate from my body. An event involving my body may occur inside my body, or at the surface of my body, but never separately from it. Thus it simply makes no sense to assert that I am here, at point X, but that my perceptions – or for that matter, my actions – are located at an external point Y.

Think of it this way. Suppose that an action or a perception could be spatially divorced from its subject. How could one demonstrate that the action or perception in question – call it A – should be attributed to this subject (Tom), rather than that subject (Mary), who happens to be standing nearby? How would one resolve the matter, if a dispute were to arise as to whose action (or perception) it was?

Again, if we suppose that an action or a perception is capable of being spatially divorced from its subject, then why couldn’t it be temporally divorced as well? Why couldn’t my actions and my perceptions continue, long after I am dead? For that matter, why couldn’t they have taken place before I was even conceived? Professor Egnor’s account of action and perception fails to exclude either of these absurd scenarios.

To my mind, the foregoing objections are absolutely fatal to any philosophical theory which locates the act of perception outside the observer, and at the object itself, even when it is located at some distance from the observer.

Is Professor Egnor’s argument conclusive?

I am a firm believer in the view that when formulating an argument, it is vital to put it forward in the form of a syllogism, so that its validity can be easily assessed. In the absence of a syllogism, the reader is liable to be convinced by the rhetorical force of the argument, rather than its logical force. Accordingly, I have endeavored to reconstruct Professor Egnor’s core argument in logical form, stripping it down to its bare bones:

1. If I am to have direct knowledge of an object when I perceive it, then my perceptions of that object must encounter the object itself – and not an impression, simulation or representation of it.

2. In order for my perceptions to encounter an object, my perceptions must come into immediate contact with it.

3. Some objects which I perceive are spatially distant from my body.

4. Hence, if I am to have direct knowledge of these distant objects when I perceive them, then my perceptions of these objects must (somehow) come into immediate contact with them.

5. But my body does not come into immediate contact with these distant objects, when I perceive them.

6. Hence my perceptions of distant objects cannot be located on or inside my body, but must be located outside my body, at the objects themselves.

At first sight, the argument appears unexceptionable, when couched in this form. However, some of the key terms used in the argument turn out to be rather vague and ill-defined. For instance: I know perfectly well what it means for me to encounter an object, but what does it mean for my perceptions to encounter an object (as stated in premises 1 and 2)? That strikes me as an odd way of talking.

One possible remedy for this problem would be to replace “my perceptions” with “I” in the first two premises. But if we simply say that perception simply requires me to encounter (and come into contact with) the objects I perceive, then we run into trouble in premise 3, which states the rather obvious fact that I don’t come into contact with all of the objects I perceive.

A critic of Egnor’s argument might be inclined to reject premise 2. After all, if Professor Egnor is willing to entertain the thought that the direct perception of an object can be spatially distant from the perceiving subject, then why can’t a direct perception of an object be spatially distant from the perceiving object, as well? If the former is conceivable, then why not the latter?

Or perhaps we should reject premise 1, instead. Why should it be the case that my direct perceptions of an object have to encounter the object? Surely it is I who encounter the object, via my perceptions of it.

At this point, I am reminded of Fred Dretske’s aphorism, “One man’s modus ponens is another man’s modus tollens.”

How the Krakatoa eruption undercuts the corpuscular theory of perception

However, in this Christmas season, I do not wish to be accused of being uncharitable in my reading of Professor Egnor’s argument. So I’d like to use another analogy, in order to bring out the point which Egnor wants to make. Most readers will be familiar with the volcanic eruption which took place in Indonesia in 1883, destroying most of the island of Krakatoa as well as its surrounding archipelago.

Now, suppose that I had lived about 100 kilometers from the island, at the time of the eruption. In that case, it would have been too far away for me to have actually seen the island exploding, with my own eyes. However, I would certainly have heard a loud noise – the sound of the explosion was heard even 3,000 miles away, in Alice Springs, Australia – and in addition to that, I would have been inundated with particles of volcanic ash from the eruption. Let’s put aside my perception of the sound of the explosion. The question I’d like to focus on is: does my being inundated with particles of volcanic ash count as a perception of the explosion?

The reason why I am posing this question is that it has bearing on what I’ll call the corpuscular theory of perception, which was defended by Cartesians and by atomists in the seventeenth century, and which is still upheld by modern philosophers. On this account, what happens when I perceive a distant body, such as the supernova which was seen to explode in 1987, is that particles (or corpuscles) travel from that object to my eye – rather like the way in which particles of volcanic ash traveled from the Krakatoa explosion to people living in surrounding areas. In the 21st century, we refer to these “particles” as photons of light, but the basic idea is the same as it was in the seventeenth century.

Getting back to Krakatoa: if I had been inundated with particles of ash from the Krakatoa eruption back in 1883, what could I have concluded from that fact? Nothing much, really. All that I could have said was that something had caused those particles to reach me, but I would have had absolutely no idea what it was. My being rained on with particles of ash could hardly qualify as a perception of the eruption itself: being situated at some distance from the eruption, I would have been unable to conclude that an eruption had even occurred. All I could have concluded was: “Something big happened.”

The above example, I believe, serves to illustrate the point Professor Egnor is making, in his critique of theories of perception which locate the act of perception away from the object itself, and either at or in the body of the observer. For what Egnor is arguing is that if these theories are correct, then I am in a similar quandary when I perceive distant objects: all I can say is that “something I know not what” is causing my perceptions. There is no real encounter between the observer and the observed.

An irenic proposal: it is objects which reach out to us, not we to them

At this point, I’d like to make an irenic proposal to Professor Egnor. He has indeed highlighted a genuine philosophical problem when he argues that any veridical perception of an object requires an encounter between the perceiver and the object itself, and he is also correct in saying that corpuscular theories of perception fail to do justice to this encounter. What I’d like to suggest is that instead of supposing (as Egnor does) that my act of perception of a distant object takes place at the distant object itself, which I somehow “reach out to” when I perceive its form, wouldn’t it be more sensible to suppose that it is the object which reaches out to me, when I perceive it?

In other words, what I am saying is that when I perceive a distant star by means of photons emitted from that star impinging on my eye, something is happening which is very different in character from my getting rained on by particles of volcanic ash from the Krakatoa eruption. The vital difference is that the particles of ash failed to manifest the character of the object itself to me: unless I had been a trained geologist, I would have been in no position to know that they came from a volcano, rather than (say) a meteorite. When I perceive a star, on the other hand, photons emitted by that star (many years ago) enter my eye and modify the organ itself, in a way which literally gives me a picture of their source. Looking at the star, I can determine that it is located in a certain region of the sky, that it is highly luminous, and that it is of a certain color. Looking at it through a telescope, I can further determine that it is roughly round in shape. And if the star in question is sufficiently close to Earth, I can even directly calculate its distance, using the method of parallax, and I can also compute its size.

What makes my perceptions both genuine and reliable in this case is that the star, in its act of emitting photons, does something much more than merely projecting particles: it also projects its own powers – in this case, the power to illuminate observers, in a particular way. And when I am affected by the star’s powers, I am thereby informed (literally, “in-formed”) in a manner which enables me to have a veridical perception of the star itself, and to arrive at a genuine knowledge of what it is.

We can now make sense of Aristotle’s statement that in the act of perception, the observer “is made like the object and has acquired its quality” (De Anima II 5), as well as his claim that the perception of an objection entails having a possession of its form. For when I perceive a distant star, I do indeed receive its form, by virtue of my eye’s being affected by the normal exercise of its powers: the star is the kind of object which has a tendency to emit light of a certain wavelength, which we perceive as “red.” Because the star is exercising its normal, regular powers when it affects me in this way, I am able to recognize that one of its characteristics is to appear red, and that another of its characteristics is to shine. I also perceive its position in the sky, and because “the stars in their courses” appear to follow a regular path in the night sky, I know that the star I perceive is not a phosphorescent flash caused by a random disturbance of my optic nerve, but an object, with a well-defined location, shape, color and size.

But, it will be asked, how can a distant object project its powers to an observer? The notion seems a little mysterious. I would suggest that the modern scientific concept of a field (which I mentioned above) may go some way towards dispelling this mystery. Briefly, the idea is that every material object is surrounded by a field of some sort – gravitational, electromagnetic, strong, weak, or what have you. We can never divorce an object from its surrounding field: the two go together like hand and glove. What I am saying is that the field serves to project the object itself: when the object’s field interacts with another body (such as the body of an observer), that body is then subjected to (and affected by) the powers of the object. The effect is not instantaneous; it takes a certain interval of time. But that is unimportant. What matters is that to perceive an object is to fall under its powers, in some way, and to thereby be informed by it, when one’s sensory organs are altered by the normal exercise of those powers.

The key difference between Egnor’s account of perception and mine, then, is that in his account, it is we who reach out to the object, when we perceive it; whereas on my account, it is the object which reaches out to us. And in the case of an exploding star, the object is capable of reaching out to us even after it has ceased to exist, because the photons it projects continue traveling in space, long after it is gone. Objects can thus exercise their powers in remote locations, even when they are no more.

One might ask: is this a case of the star’s actions being temporally divorced from the star itself – a notion which I rejected as absurd in my philosophical argument against the possibility of actions or perceptions being either spatially or temporally divorced from their subject? There is indeed a temporal delay between the action and its effect – just as there would be if a fiend were to plot a murder by enclosing a bomb inside his last will and testament, which was designed to detonate only when it was opened, some time after his death. But even in this case, the dastardly deed of enclosing the bomb inside the will is performed during the lifetime of the fiend – and similarly, the action of emitting light is performed during the lifetime of the star, even its effects are only felt by us much later. Thus there is no “temporal divorce” between the entity and its actions, but only between the actions and their effects.

It seems to me that the account of perception which I am defending here is a lot less odd, metaphysically speaking, than the account put forward by Professor Egnor. It also appears to accord better with common sense. But at this point, I shall lay down my pen, and let my readers judge the matter for themselves. I am also happy to let Professor Egnor have the last word in this exchange, and I would like to wish him a merry Christmas.

What do readers think?

UPDATE: Over at ENV, Professor Egnor has written a reply to my post, on which I have briefly commented below (see here).

Comments
Dr. Torley, at this point, besides the 'into the past' experiments of Zeilinger that were just referenced, I would like to re-reference the quantum zeno effect as well as Radin's six experiments. If the simple act of observation is not able to 'reach back in time' as you hold, and since it takes a finite amount of temporal time for light to travel even a few inches, (light travels approximately 1 foot in a nano-second), then there should be no effect witnessed if an observer simply observes something. Yet, the quantum Zeno effect shatters this materialistic myth.
Quantum Zeno effect “It has been experimentally confirmed,, that unstable particles will not decay, or will decay less rapidly, if they are observed. Somehow, observation changes the quantum system. We’re talking pure observation, not interacting with the system in any way.” Douglas Ell – Counting to God – pg. 189 – 2014 – Douglas Ell graduated early from MIT, where he double majored in math and physics. He then obtained a masters in theoretical mathematics from the University of Maryland.
I received a bit of blowback from a few atheists on that quote from Ell, so I looked up 'interaction-free measurement' of the quantum Zeno effect. And indeed decay of unstable atoms can be prevented without directly interacting the atoms, but the decay is prevented simply by the knowledge, (i.e. information), we gain by 'observing' the system as a whole through time.
Interaction-free measurements by quantum Zeno stabilization of ultracold atoms – 14 April 2015 Excerpt: In our experiments, we employ an ultracold gas in an unstable spin configuration, which can undergo a rapid decay. The object—realized by a laser beam—prevents this decay because of the indirect quantum Zeno effect and thus, its presence can be detected without interacting with a single atom. http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2015/150414/ncomms7811/full/ncomms7811.html?WT.ec_id=NCOMMS-20150415
We find that Interaction free measurements involve collapsing a wave function simply by the knowledge you gain about a system as you observe it through time. In fact, interaction free measurements are one of the lines of evidence that falsified decoherence as a rational explanation for wave collapse. Richard Conn Henry, Professor of Physics John Hopkins University, puts it like this:
The Mental Universe – Richard Conn Henry – Professor of Physics John Hopkins University Excerpt: The only reality is mind and observations, but observations are not of things. To see the Universe as it really is, we must abandon our tendency to conceptualize observations as things.,,, Physicists shy away from the truth because the truth is so alien to everyday physics. A common way to evade the mental universe is to invoke “decoherence” – the notion that “the physical environment” is sufficient to create reality, independent of the human mind. Yet the idea that any irreversible act of amplification is necessary to collapse the wave function is known to be wrong: in “Renninger-type” experiments, the wave function is collapsed simply by your human mind seeing nothing. The universe is entirely mental,,,, The Universe is immaterial — mental and spiritual. Live, and enjoy. http://henry.pha.jhu.edu/The.mental.universe.pdf
Here are some of those interaction free measurements:
The Renninger Negative Result Experiment – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3uzSlh_CV0 Experimental Realization of Interaction-Free Measurement – Paul G. Kwiat; H. Weinfurter, T. Herzog, A. Zeilinger, and M. Kasevich – 1994 http://www.univie.ac.at/qfp/publications3/pdffiles/1994-08.pdf Interaction-Free Measurement – Zeilinger - 1995 We show that one can ascertain the presence of an object in some sense without interacting with it. http://archive.is/AjexE Realization of an interaction-free measurement – 1996 http://bg.bilkent.edu.tr/jc/topics/Interaction%20free%20measurements/papers/realization%20of%20an%20interaction%20free%20measurement.pdf
Thus, the fact that 'observation', or what Dr. Egnor termed 'perception at a distance', does indeed have an effect on what is being observed is established by the interaction free Quantum Zeno effect I referenced as well as by the 'interaction free' experiments that preceded it. As well Dr. Torley, as much as you may think Radin is not even a 'real' scientist, since he studies what role, if any, mind may have on matter, I re-reference the results of Radin's paper. Specifically, I want to emphasize the fact that it was shown in his experiments that 'focused-attention' did indeed have an effect on the double slit experiment to a 'significant degree' by an observer sitting two meters away.
VI. FIRST FOUR EXPERIMENTS COMBINED – pg. 164 ,,,The principal hypothesis predicted that overall z would be negative, indicating a differential drop in the spectral ratio R during focused-attention periods relative to no-attention periods. A secondary hypothesis was that the differential drop would be stronger for meditators than for nonmeditators, and a tertiary hypothesis was that the effect would become more negative when lagged a few seconds. All of the hypotheses were confirmed, with the principal and secondary predictions confirmed to a significant degree. http://www.deanradin.com/papers/Physics%20Essays%20Radin%20final.pdf
As to the metaphysical prejudice of most physicist against consciousness having any role in Quantum Mechanics, Radin makes this comment on page 169 and 170 of the preceding study:
These studies in context Because it is central to interpretations of quantum mechanics, the physics literature abounds with philosophical and theoretical discussions about the QMP (Quantum Measurement Problem), including speculations about the role of consciousness. One might expect to find a correspondingly robust experimental literature testing these ideas, but it is not so, and the reason is not surprising: The notion that consciousness may be related to the formation of physical reality has come to be associated more with medieval magic and so-called New Age ideas than it is with sober science. As a result, it is safer for one’s scientific career to avoid associating with such dubious topics and subsequently rare to find experiments examining these ideas in the physics literature. Indeed, the taboo is so robust that until recently it had extended to any test of the foundations of quantum theory. For more than 50 years such studies were considered unsuitable for serious investigators. 35
Dr. Torley, I always find it interesting that 'metaphysical prejudice' in science almost always seems to pop up whenever the results of science might point to God. I would hope Dr. Torley that you could rise above that 'metaphysical prejudice' inherent in much of science and accept the results of the experiments I have cited for what they are. Namely, that consciousness/mind is not as limited as you have presupposed it to be in your debate with Dr. Egnor. And that mind, namely perception of the mind, can indeed have effects outside of our temporal/material body to 'perceive at an object' just as Dr. Egnor claimed it could.bornagain
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Dr. Torley, you hold that since a supernova no longer exists in temporal time, then you believe that Dr. Egnor must obviously be wrong in his claim that perception can be 'at the star' and not within our bodies since the star obviously cannot exist 'now'. In response, I cited these experiments in post 145.
Experimental delayed-choice entanglement swapping – Oct. 2012 Abstract: Motivated by the question, which kind of physical interactions and processes are needed for the production of quantum entanglement, Peres has put forward the radical idea of delayed-choice entanglement swapping. There, entanglement can be “produced a posteriori, after the entangled particles have been measured and may no longer exist”. In this work we report the first realization of Peres’ gedanken experiment. Using four photons, we can actively delay the choice of measurement-implemented via a high-speed tunable bipartite state analyzer and a quantum random number generator-on two of the photons into the time-like future of the registration of the other two photons. This effectively projects the two already registered photons onto one definite of two mutually exclusive quantum states in which either the photons are entangled (quantum correlations) or separable (classical correlations). This can also be viewed as “quantum steering into the past”. http://arxiv.org/abs/1203.4834 Quantum physics mimics spooky action into the past – April 23, 2012 Excerpt: The authors experimentally realized a “Gedankenexperiment” called “delayed-choice entanglement swapping”, formulated by Asher Peres in the year 2000. Two pairs of entangled photons are produced, and one photon from each pair is sent to a party called Victor. Of the two remaining photons, one photon is sent to the party Alice and one is sent to the party Bob. Victor can now choose between two kinds of measurements. If he decides to measure his two photons in a way such that they are forced to be in an entangled state, then also Alice’s and Bob’s photon pair becomes entangled. If Victor chooses to measure his particles individually, Alice’s and Bob’s photon pair ends up in a separable state. Modern quantum optics technology allowed the team to delay Victor’s choice and measurement with respect to the measurements which Alice and Bob perform on their photons. “We found that whether Alice’s and Bob’s photons are entangled and show quantum correlations or are separable and show classical correlations can be decided after they have been measured”, explains Xiao-song Ma, lead author of the study. According to the famous words of Albert Einstein, the effects of quantum entanglement appear as “spooky action at a distance”. The recent experiment has gone one remarkable step further. “Within a naïve classical world view, quantum mechanics can even mimic an influence of future actions on past events”, says Anton Zeilinger. http://phys.org/news/2012-04-quantum-physics-mimics-spooky-action.html
I would like to draw attention to three quotes in particular from the preceding papers
“produced a posteriori, after the entangled particles have been measured and may no longer exist”. Peres “quantum steering into the past”. Zeilinger “Within a naïve classical world view, quantum mechanics can even mimic an influence of future actions on past events”, Zeilinger.
Dr. Torley, those experiments are simply impossible within your naïve classical world view. In fact, those experiments specifically refute your claim that Dr. Egnor can't possibly be right because the supernova obviously does not still exist. Yet Dr. Torley, materialistic presumptions apparently die hard, and you further stated this:
I repeat: if (as professor Egnor maintains), perception involves “reaching out” and making immediate contact with what is perceived, then we are faced with an irresolvable problem: we cannot make immediate contact with the past. And from our standpoint, the supernova is past, even if from light’s standpoint (and for that matter, God’s) it is not.
To which I responded in post 144 that the speed of light is a higher dimensional framework of time, (and also referenced the 'Dr. Quantum in Flatland' video), and thus that the higher eternal dimension framework of light takes priority over the temporal framework of time that you are currently giving priority to. In further response, I also referenced the following essay in post 154.
How exactly did consciousness become a problem? by Margaret Wertheim – Dec. 1, 2015 Excerpt: Heaven and Earth were two separate yet intertwined domains of human action. Medieval cosmology was thus inherently dualistic: the physical domain of the body had a parallel in the spiritual domain of the soul; and for medieval thinkers, the latter was the primary domain of the Real.,,, But perhaps most surprisingly, just when the ‘stream of consciousness’ was entering our lexicon, physicists began to realise that consciousness might after all be critical to their own descriptions of the world. With the advent of quantum mechanics they found that, in order to make sense of what their theories were saying about the subatomic world, they had to posit that the scientist-observer was actively involved in constructing reality.,,, Such a view appalled many physicists,,, Just this April, Nature Physics reported on a set of experiments showing a similar effect using helium atoms. Andrew Truscott, the Australian scientist who spearheaded the helium work, noted in Physics Today that ‘99.999 per cent of physicists would say that the measurement… brings the observable into reality’. In other words, human subjectivity is drawing forth the world.,,, Not all physicists are willing to go down this path, however, and there is indeed now a growing backlash against subjectivity.,,, when I was a physics student the MWI (Many Worlds Interpretation was widely seen as a fringe concept. Today, it is becoming mainstream, in large part because the pesky problem of consciousness simply hasn’t gone away.,,, https://aeon.co/essays/how-and-why-exactly-did-consciousness-become-a-problem
Dr. Torley, in challenging the 'into the past papers (Zeilinger), ironically, you referenced this particular 2005 paper by Zeilinger to try to refute the 'into the past' papers I cited to refute your contention against Dr. Egnor that perception is 'at the star'
CONCLUSIONS In Peres words: “if we attempt to attribute an objective meaning to the quantum state of a single system, curious paradoxes appear: quantum effects mimic not only instantaneous action-at-a-distance but also, as seen here, influence of future actions on past events, even after these events have been irrevocably recorded”. In contrast, there is never a paradox if the quantum states is viewed as to be no more than a representative of our information. Furthermore such a view provides us with both conceptually and formally much simpler approach. This we demonstrate here for the entanglement swapping experiment by deriving a quantitative complementarity relation between the measure of information about the input state for teleportation and the amount of entanglement of the resulting swapped entangled state. http://aspelmeyer.quantum.at/docs/82/downloads/foundations-of-physics-vol.pdf
Specifically Dr. Torley, you claimed this sentence from Zeilinger refuted Peres statement (and the 'into the past' experiments'
“there is never a paradox if the quantum states is viewed as to be no more than a representative of our information.” Anton Zeilinger - Complementarity and Information in “Delayed-choice for Entanglement Swapping” - 2005
But Zeilinger was not saying that an insoluble paradox does not exist for the “naïve classical world view”, as he terms your materialistic worldview Dr. Torley, Zeilinger was instead saying that the paradox disappears if we think in terms of information. i.e. Zeilinger is on record in several places calling for an 'information theoretic' view of reality (Wheeler) so as to resolve the seemingly impossible paradoxes that come from thinking about reality in materialistic terms as you, Dr. Torley, are currently doing in your debate with Dr. Egnor:
“In conclusion, it may very well be said that information is the irreducible kernel from which everything else flows. Thence the question why nature appears quantized is simply a consequence of the fact that information itself is quantized by necessity. It might even be fair to observe that the concept that information is fundamental is very old knowledge of humanity, witness for example the beginning of gospel according to John: "In the beginning was the Word." Anton Zeilinger - Why the Quantum? It from Bit? A Participatory Universe? “Zeilinger's principle states that any elementary system carries just one bit of information. This principle was put forward by Austrian physicist Anton Zeilinger in 1999 and subsequently developed by him to derive several aspects of quantum mechanics. Some have reasoned that this principle, in certain ways, links thermodynamics with information theory.” [1] Daintith, John. (2005). Oxford Dictionary of Science (5th ed.). Oxford: Oxford University Press. “Zeilinger's principle leads to the intrinsic randomness found in the quantum world. Consider the spin of an electron. Say it is measured along a vertical axis (call it the z axis) and found to be pointing up. Because one bit of information has been used to make that statement, no more information can be carried by the electron's spin. Consequently, no information is available to predict the amounts of spin in the two horizontal directions (x and y axes), so they are of necessity entirely random. If you then measure the spin in one of these directions, there is an equal chance of its pointing right or left, forward or back. This fundamental randomness is what we call Heisenberg's uncertainty principle.” In the beginning was the bit - New Scientist Quantum physics just got less complicated - Dec. 19, 2014 Excerpt: Patrick Coles, Jedrzej Kaniewski, and Stephanie Wehner,,, found that 'wave-particle duality' is simply the quantum 'uncertainty principle' in disguise, reducing two mysteries to one.,,, "The connection between uncertainty and wave-particle duality comes out very naturally when you consider them as questions about what information you can gain about a system. Our result highlights the power of thinking about physics from the perspective of information,",,, per physorg
Zeilinger also stated this:
“From that position, the so-called measurement problem . . . is not a problem but a consequence of the more fundamental role information plays in quantum physics as compared to classical physics.” A. Zeilinger, Rev. Mod. Phys.71, S288 (1999)
Now Zeilinger, unwittingly or not, even though he thinks he has solved the measurement problem by thinking of the problem only in terms of information, has still, none-the-less, smuggled the 'observer' in the back door. Barr puts the situation like this:
That’s why, when Peierls was asked whether a machine could be an “observer,” he said no, explaining that “the quantum mechanical description is in terms of knowledge, and knowledge requires somebody who knows.” Not a purely physical thing, but a mind. Stephen M. Barr - Does Quantum Physics Make it Easier to Believe in God? - July 10, 2012
But regardless of whether or not Zeilinger made an inadvertent mistake in excluding the observer from the measurement problem, (which I hold that he did), I want to focus on the physical nature of information. Namely, I want to point out that, although information can be represented on a material substrate, information is still transcendent of any conceivable material basis. Meyer and Berliski put the situation like this:
“One of the things I do in my classes, to get this idea across to students, is I hold up two computer disks. One is loaded with software, and the other one is blank. And I ask them, ‘what is the difference in mass between these two computer disks, as a result of the difference in the information content that they posses’? And of course the answer is, ‘Zero! None! There is no difference as a result of the information. And that’s because information is a mass-less quantity. Now, if information is not a material entity, then how can any materialistic explanation account for its origin? How can any material cause explain it’s origin? And this is the real and fundamental problem that the presence of information in biology has posed. It creates a fundamental challenge to the materialistic, evolutionary scenarios because information is a different kind of entity that matter and energy cannot produce. In the nineteenth century we thought that there were two fundamental entities in science; matter, and energy. At the beginning of the twenty first century, we now recognize that there’s a third fundamental entity; and its ‘information’. It’s not reducible to matter. It’s not reducible to energy. But it’s still a very important thing that is real; we buy it, we sell it, we send it down wires. Now, what do we make of the fact, that information is present at the very root of all biological function? In biology, we have matter, we have energy, but we also have this third, very important entity; information. I think the biology of the information age, poses a fundamental challenge to any materialistic approach to the origin of life.” -Dr. Stephen C. Meyer earned his Ph.D. in the History and Philosophy of science from Cambridge University Berlinski: There is no argument against religion that is not also an argument against mathematics. Mathematicians are capable of grasping a world of objects that lies beyond space and time …. Interviewer:… Come again(?) … Berlinski: No need to come again: I got to where I was going the first time. The number four, after all, did not come into existence at a particular time, and it is not going to go out of existence at another time. It is neither here nor there. Nonetheless we are in some sense able to grasp the number by a faculty of our minds. Mathematical intuition is utterly mysterious. So for that matter is the fact that mathematical objects such as a Lie Group or a differentiable manifold have the power to interact with elementary particles or accelerating forces. But these are precisely the claims that theologians have always made as well – that human beings are capable by an exercise of their devotional abilities to come to some understanding of the deity; and the deity, although beyond space and time, is capable of interacting with material objects. - Jonathan Witt - An Interview with David Berlinski
To put this in perspective, as pointed out before, hypothetically travelling at the speed of light in this universe would be instantaneous travel for the person going at the speed of light. This is because time does not pass for them, yet, and this is a very big ‘yet’ to take note of; this ‘timeless’ travel is still not instantaneous and transcendent to our temporal framework of time (as quantum teleportation is), i.e. Speed of light travel, to our temporal frame of reference, is still not completely transcendent of our framework since light appears to take time to travel from our temporal perspective. Yet, in quantum teleportation of information, the ‘time not passing’, i.e. ‘eternal’, framework is not only achieved in the speed of light framework/dimension, but is also ‘instantaneously’ achieved in our temporal framework. That is to say, the instantaneous teleportation/travel of quantum information is instantaneous to both the temporal and speed of light frameworks, not just the speed of light framework. Information entanglement/travel is not limited by time, nor space, in any way, shape or form, in any frame of reference, as light is seemingly limited to us in this temporal framework.
Looking beyond space and time to cope with quantum theory – 29 October 2012 Excerpt: “Our result gives weight to the idea that quantum correlations somehow arise from outside spacetime, in the sense that no story in space and time can describe them,” http://www.quantumlah.org/highlight/121029_hidden_influences.php
Thus ‘pure transcendent information’ (in quantum teleportaion experiments) is shown to be timeless (eternal) and completely transcendent of all material frameworks. Moreover, concluding from all lines of evidence we now have (many of which I have not specifically listed here); transcendent, eternal, infinite information is indeed real and the framework in which ‘It’ resides is the primary reality (highest dimension) that can exist, (in so far as our limited perception of a primary reality, highest dimension, can be discerned). Thus Dr. Torley, I think, as far as empirical science in concerned, that the 'spiritual domain of the soul'; i.e. “the primary domain of the 'Real' for medieval thinkers” as Margaret Wertheim put it in her essay, has certainly returned full force to reclaim its rightful place as 'the primary domain of the 'Real''. And that the materialistic philosophy, i.e. space-time matter-energy, that you are trying to give precedence in your debate with Dr. Egnor is of secondary or lesser concern.
"An illusion can never go faster than the speed limit of reality" Akiane Kramarik - Child Prodigy -
I also reiterate that, besides reality being 'information theoretic' in its foundational basis and taking precedence over past events in time (Zeilinger), that quantum entanglement is also found in biology on a massive scale. Thus, giving Libet's 'instantaneous perception' findings a plausible mechanism all the way into the brain. And thus also providing a continuous 'instantaneous' chain to support Dr. Egnor's claim for 'perception at the star' even though on the temporal perspective the star may no longer exist. Verse and Music:
Titus 1:2 in the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time, [Official Video] Mary, Did You Know? - Pentatonix https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifCWN5pJGIE&index=4&list=RDrgGaQWCCjR0
bornagain
December 15, 2015
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Dr. Torley, Thank you again for your thought provoking posts. I really enjoy them. I have been thinking about what you've written @133 and I have to say, I have my doubts that God can be omniscient and not really know everything beforehand. Here is your explanation of your views which are quite interesting: "I’d like to return to J-Mac’s question: “So, did God know that Adam and Eve would sin?” Vy answers “Yes.” I would answer “No,” even though I maintain that God is omniscient. How can this be? The short answer is that I hold to a Boethian view of Divine foreknowledge: God is like a watcher on a high hill Who timelessly views the past, present and future. God is a spectator of human events; this means that He does not make them happen, but is made aware that they happen. Because God is outside time and space, there is no temporal “before” and “after” with God: all things are present. But in the order of causality, it is our choices that determine God’s awareness of them, and not the other way round (as predestinationists think). Hence God’s awareness of Adam and Eve’s choice is logically posterior to, and not prior to, the choice itself. Insofar as Adam and Eve’s choice was contrary to God’s wishes, we may speak of God as being disappointed and even as having regrets, regarding their choice. The same goes for any other bad choice that people make. However, it would be wrong to speak of God as being surprised by our choices, because surprise can only occur in time, and there never is any time at which God does not know what we have done, are doing and will do. God timelessly knows the totality of our choices, past, present and future, but His knowledge of these choices is passive. That’s why foreknowledge and freedom don’t conflict.". Here is why I tend to disagree: We both believe and know that God must be outside of time and space. This is really easy and I'm not going to get into details so as not to distract you and others from the point I'm trying to make. My brother who is very well versed in scriptures and this issue is not responding to my emails and text messages, which can only mean one thing; he is somewhere down-under where there is no signal. So, I'm going to try to reconstruct what he had told me more than once. God is outside of time and space. My brother explained it to me this way, which seems to synchronize with what you have written Dr. Torley. I will be paraphrasing ig since I can't recall the exact details: Imagine God creating the universe, time and space but he is the outside spectator. He is not affected by the progression of time and the expansion of the universe. Example for all those (including myself) to understand it better. I think more in pictures therefore my brother produced something like that: Imagine that God, just like Dr.Torley suggested, is able to watch a movie with all of the events of that movie at the same time. He is able to watch every second of the movie at the same time. Now imagine, that the movie God is watching is the movie/history of the universe and all the history of mankind beginning from the first creation of the Earth, Adam and Eve, and all the way to the ends of the universe. If God can watch this movie with all the bits and pieces at the same time, because he is omniscient, how is that not making Him responsible for Adam and Eve's sin? According to this belief God is watching the movie of the history of the universe "past, present and future of his creation at the same time and even before He had even started the creation. This means that Gad had already known that Adam and Eve would sin, because he was able to watch the "universe expansion movie" in the past, present and future at the same time and be able to know all the details of that movie at an instance the time. My problem is this; if I were God, Why would I go to all the trouble and create the wonderful universe and all the beauty of it plus mankind if I were already "watching" the outcome of it at the same time? This reasoning does't stand the logic and more-God's high moral principles that He had wanted man to imitate.J-Mac
December 15, 2015
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semi related to my response to Torley in 144:
How exactly did consciousness become a problem? by Margaret Wertheim - Dec. 1, 2015 Excerpt: Heaven and Earth were two separate yet intertwined domains of human action. Medieval cosmology was thus inherently dualistic: the physical domain of the body had a parallel in the spiritual domain of the soul; and for medieval thinkers, the latter was the primary domain of the Real.,,, But perhaps most surprisingly, just when the ‘stream of consciousness’ was entering our lexicon, physicists began to realise that consciousness might after all be critical to their own descriptions of the world. With the advent of quantum mechanics they found that, in order to make sense of what their theories were saying about the subatomic world, they had to posit that the scientist-observer was actively involved in constructing reality.,,, Such a view appalled many physicists,,, Just this April, Nature Physics reported on a set of experiments showing a similar effect using helium atoms. Andrew Truscott, the Australian scientist who spearheaded the helium work, noted in Physics Today that ‘99.999 per cent of physicists would say that the measurement… brings the observable into reality’. In other words, human subjectivity is drawing forth the world.,,, Not all physicists are willing to go down this path, however, and there is indeed now a growing backlash against subjectivity.,,, when I was a physics student the MWI (Many Worlds Interpretation was widely seen as a fringe concept. Today, it is becoming mainstream, in large part because the pesky problem of consciousness simply hasn’t gone away.,,, https://aeon.co/essays/how-and-why-exactly-did-consciousness-become-a-problem
bornagain
December 15, 2015
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J-Mac:
Mapou, I like you because you are much more than average an insightful being. Can you kindly elaborate why “infinity” is a nonsense to you? I’m curious and not attempting to criticize your views….
Well, thank you. But my insight comes from my being a bona fide nut and not being afraid to say what I believe. It's not easy. I figured out it's more about guts than brains. I also figured out that, after all is said and done, every widespread crackpottery is nonsense for a very simple reason. Infinity is no exception. Here goes. If infinity existed, any finite quantity would be infinitely smaller than an infinitely large quantity while being finite at the same time. It's a logical contradiction because a finite quantity cannot be infinitely smaller than anything. Why? Because it cannot be both finite and infinitely small at the same time. The inverse also applies. If infinity were true, any finite quantity would be infinitely bigger than an infinitely small quantity. Same fallacy. IOW, we cannot compare any finite number to infinity without being stopped by a contradiction.Mapou
December 14, 2015
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Dr. Torley, Coldplay – Yellow (The Stars Shine For you) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RH3X-LLY66Ybornagain
December 14, 2015
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Jack Jones, Having the ability to access the future and always using the ability is not the same thing. I can agree with you on this. The only "issue" I might have is ""why". Any thoughts?J-Mac
December 14, 2015
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Dr. Torley, Thank you very much for your very insightful comments. I very well know that you are truly and sincerely looking for the truth, and promote what you believe is the truth. Your sincerity and tireless effort will be awarded soon... thank you again.J-Mac
December 14, 2015
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Mapou, I like you because you are much more than average an insightful being. Can you kindly elaborate why "infinity" is a nonsense to you? I'm curious and not attempting to criticize your views....J-Mac
December 14, 2015
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Fundamentalist Christians and materialists have at least one crackpottery in common: they both believe in the nonsense of infinity. It would be funny if it weren't so pathetically wrong. It's an evil doctrine, IMO, the work of the devil. LOLMapou
December 14, 2015
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Dr. Torley you then state:
2. You question my assertion that Dean Radin believes that perception can occur even in the absence of a physical encounter with the perceived object, arguing that the six experiments he describes don’t involve any such thing. Never mind those. Have a look at his Webpage, titled, Selected Peer-Reviewed Publications on Psi Research. You’ll see that several links refer to “extra-sensory perception” and “remote viewing.” See also this blog post here. I rest my case.
You are the one who said that you wanted to talk specifically about Radin's 2012 paper that I had referenced to refute your point. Not I. You then went on rambling about Radin's Psi research in which that particular experiment was not even a part of. i.e. The participants in the primary experiments of the 2012 paper were looking directly at the double slit, (which were the exact experiments that had the strongest results by the way). The results are consistent with Egnor's contention and dis-confirm your contention. It is you that has egg on your face for trying to discredit a paper you did not even bother to read and understand. And then, now, trying to point to his other research to try to discredit this 2012 paper by negative association just adds to the disingenuous nature of your response. Moreover, The empirical evidence of this 2012 paper is above board and stands on its own merit. Despite attempts by atheistic/materialistic sceptics to smear Radin's other research. Moreover, even though you try to discredit Radin's other Psi research, that research, none-the-less, stands up to scrutiny. Radin is certainly no snake oil salesman, and I find him, unlike Darwinists, to be extremely above board and honest in his inquiry and research.,,, Readily admitting when results fail to live up to expectations and faithfully recording exactly how and when they hold up. I find that Dr. Radin is a man of integrity in his research, whatever atheists/materialists may say about him! You then go on about remote viewing in point 3, which is not even a point I was defending in the first place. Switching the topic to protect your position from falsifying evidence does not reflect well on you at all Dr. Torley. I'll skip to point 5 for now where you try to attack Radin's other Psi research again. Dean Radin defends the ‘mathematical’ integrity of his work here.
Dr. Dean Radin And Dr. Roger Nelson Respond to Global Consciousness Project Criticisms http://www.skeptiko.com/74-radin-nelson-global-consciousness/
In point 4 Dr. Torley you try to say, (without even batting an eye about the massive 'non-local' quantum entanglement found in every protein and DNA molecule that I referenced), that Libet's research for 'instantaneous perception' is merely “‘subjective back-referral of sensations in time’. Egnor acknowledged that Libet tried to rationalize away his findings in such a fashion too. Dr. Egnor, a brain surgeon, as well as I, a layman, reject that pathetic 'explain away' hypothesis.
Libet was flabbergasted by this result and hypothesized that “the subjective timing of the experience is (automatically) referred backwards in time.” Yet Aristotle offered a much simpler and logically coherent explanation — the stimulus on the skin is perceived on the skin, not in the brain. Perception occurs at the location of the stimulus, not in the brain. - Michael Egnor
In point 6 you try to defend your imputing causal power, i.e. agent causality, to inanimate objects (i.e. secondary cause). In that regards, I hold you to be part of the problem in modern science, not the solution. Note what Dr. Stephen Meyer, who has a Ph.D. in the philosophy of science from the University of Cambridge, disparagingly said about these secondary causes that you are so enamoured with
But Bishop and O’Connor seem entirely unmoved by discoveries showing the existence of such informational and integrated complexity in living organisms, not because the existence of functional digital code or the nanotechnology in life is in any way in doubt, but because they have committed themselves to viewing the world as if it were the product of materialistic or naturalistic processes regardless of the evidence. (Of course, they conceptualize those processes as modes of divine action, that is, “secondary causes” in theological parlance, even when those same processes clearly lack the creative capacity necessary to explain the origin of the features of life that are attributed to them.) https://uncommondescent.com/christian-darwinism/methodological-naturalism-darwins-sucker-punch/
Dr. Torley, I sense you are too deeply wedded to your materialistic philosophy and that we will always be divided on these issues of science and philosophy. Yet, I am, none-the-less, as a fellow Christian, comforted that we are always united in Christ. Our Lord and Saviour! Amen! Verse and Music
1 Corinthians 1:10-13 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?" In Christ Alone - Live – HD http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mPrqltkJyw
bornagain
December 14, 2015
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vjytorley:
Thank you for your comments. You write: “I have never seen any scripture that claims that Yahweh is omniscient or that Yahweh knows all past present and future. The link you provided is no exception.” OK, what about Psalm 139:4? “Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O LORD, you know it altogether.” Or what about Isaiah 46:9? “I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things not yet done.” I’d say that’s pretty clear, wouldn’t you?
Not at all. Yahweh can make things happen in the same way that you and I can make things happen. The difference is that Yahweh is much more powerful. Yahweh has the means to look into our brains and see what we are thinking about before we open our mouths. Heck, even with our limited powers, we, humans, now have machines that can pinpoint certain thoughts in the brain. It's a primitive form of mind reading. But we'll get much better at it as we get more knowledgeable. As Paul once wrote, knowledge is power.
You add: “A being that knows all past, present and future is a being that is impotent, i.e., a being that can never change its mind.” Such a Being would have no need to change its Mind. Knowing everything makes it omnipotent, rather than impotent, for God’s power derives from what He knows and understands.
This makes no sense, IMO. If God can't change his mind about anything, he is not only impotent (humans can do something that God cannot do), he is also undeserving of any praise whatsoever. Why? Because he cannot learn anything (here, too, we can do something that God cannot do). I worship a powerful, self-made God who toiled at creation for eons.
You object to the notion of God’s omniscience on two grounds: “First off, since only the present exists, the claim is self-refuting. Second, omniscience and omnipotence assumes that infinity is a logical concept. It is not. It is a cretinous concept. Infinity leads to an infinite regress by definition. Parmenides of Elea proved it: either infinity exists and motion/change does not, or infinity is bogus and we have motion. Take your pick.” Parmenides’ mathematical fallacy was to assume that an infinite number of distances cannot be traversed in a finite time. That’s not true. Parmenides’ argument would work, if all of these distances were greater than some number N, which is greater than 0. but they’re not. Putting it very simply: 1+0.5+0.25+0.125+0.0625+….=2.
The "..." is what kills this false "equation". It is not an equation unless and until you can write all of it down. That is impossible. Don't even try a refutation. I will shoot it down.
Your claim that “only the present exists” is question-begging. It invites the obvious response: “Exists when?” The answer is, of course, “Now.” The past did exist, but does not now exist; neither does the future, although it will exist. So your statement really amounts to the trivial claim: “Only what now exists, exists now.” True, but irrelevant. God is a timeless being. There’s no reason why past, present and future events could not all co-exist from a timeless perspective.
I'm sorry but this is all nonsense. If time existed, we would have an infinity of changeless moments, i.e., a block universe. This is the reason that Karl Popper compared Einstein's spacetime to a block universe in which nothing happens. Source: Conjectures and Refutations. Why is the time dimension nonsense? Simply because it makes change impossible. Why? Because a change in time is self-referential. But I take it that you are comfortable with self-reference. Good luck with that.Mapou
December 14, 2015
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Of related note: Here’s a recent variation of Wheeler’s Delayed Choice experiment, which highlights the ability of the conscious observer to effect 'spooky action into the past', thus further solidifying consciousness's centrality in reality. Furthermore in the following experiment, the claim that past material states determine future conscious choices (determinism) is directly falsified by the fact that present conscious choices effect past material states:
Experimental delayed-choice entanglement swapping - Oct. 2012 Abstract: Motivated by the question, which kind of physical interactions and processes are needed for the production of quantum entanglement, Peres has put forward the radical idea of delayed-choice entanglement swapping. There, entanglement can be "produced a posteriori, after the entangled particles have been measured and may no longer exist". In this work we report the first realization of Peres' gedanken experiment. Using four photons, we can actively delay the choice of measurement-implemented via a high-speed tunable bipartite state analyzer and a quantum random number generator-on two of the photons into the time-like future of the registration of the other two photons. This effectively projects the two already registered photons onto one definite of two mutually exclusive quantum states in which either the photons are entangled (quantum correlations) or separable (classical correlations). This can also be viewed as "quantum steering into the past". http://arxiv.org/abs/1203.4834
along that line
Quantum physics mimics spooky action into the past - April 23, 2012 Excerpt: The authors experimentally realized a "Gedankenexperiment" called "delayed-choice entanglement swapping", formulated by Asher Peres in the year 2000. Two pairs of entangled photons are produced, and one photon from each pair is sent to a party called Victor. Of the two remaining photons, one photon is sent to the party Alice and one is sent to the party Bob. Victor can now choose between two kinds of measurements. If he decides to measure his two photons in a way such that they are forced to be in an entangled state, then also Alice's and Bob's photon pair becomes entangled. If Victor chooses to measure his particles individually, Alice's and Bob's photon pair ends up in a separable state. Modern quantum optics technology allowed the team to delay Victor's choice and measurement with respect to the measurements which Alice and Bob perform on their photons. "We found that whether Alice's and Bob's photons are entangled and show quantum correlations or are separable and show classical correlations can be decided after they have been measured", explains Xiao-song Ma, lead author of the study. According to the famous words of Albert Einstein, the effects of quantum entanglement appear as "spooky action at a distance". The recent experiment has gone one remarkable step further. "Within a naïve classical world view, quantum mechanics can even mimic an influence of future actions on past events", says Anton Zeilinger. http://phys.org/news/2012-04-quantum-physics-mimics-spooky-action.html
Quantum Mechanics imitating Laplace’s French accent, quipping, “Space-Time? I have no need for that hypothesis!”bornagain
December 14, 2015
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Dr. Torley, you state: Hi bornagain,
I’d just like to make a few brief remarks in response to your posts, before you sum up your case.
Brief and Dr. Torley are not two terms I usually use in the same breath. :) But anyways, Your first point is:
1. You invoke relativistic time dilation as a solution to how we can perceive past events, such as supernova explosions. You argue that from the viewpoint of a photon emitted by the dying star, no time elapses between the photon’s emission and the photon’s hitting our retinas, when we perceive the explosion. I’m afraid that won’t help. For what matters here is not the photon’s point of view, but the human percipient’s, and from the percipient’s point of view, time is all too real. percipient: noun (especially in philosophy or with reference to psychic phenomena) a person who is able to perceive things.
Really Dr. Torley??? That is interesting remark for you, a philosopher, to make. Einstein was once asked (by a philosopher):
"Can physics demonstrate the existence of 'the now' in order to make the notion of 'now' into a scientifically valid term?"
Einstein's answer was categorical, he said:
"The experience of 'the now' cannot be turned into an object of physical measurement, it can never be a part of physics."
Quote was taken from the last few minutes of this following video. The meaning of the question can be read in full context in the article following the video:
Stanley L. Jaki: "The Mind and Its Now" https://vimeo.com/10588094 The Mind and Its Now - Stanley L. Jaki, July 2008 Excerpts: There can be no active mind without its sensing its existence in the moment called now.,,, Three quarters of a century ago Charles Sherrington, the greatest modern student of the brain, spoke memorably on the mind's baffling independence of the brain. The mind lives in a self-continued now or rather in the now continued in the self. This life involves the entire brain, some parts of which overlap, others do not. ,,,There is no physical parallel to the mind's ability to extend from its position in the momentary present to its past moments, or in its ability to imagine its future. The mind remains identical with itself while it lives through its momentary nows. ,,, the now is immensely richer an experience than any marvelous set of numbers, even if science could give an account of the set of numbers, in terms of energy levels. The now is not a number. It is rather a word, the most decisive of all words. It is through experiencing that word that the mind comes alive and registers all existence around and well beyond. ,,, All our moments, all our nows, flow into a personal continuum, of which the supreme form is the NOW which is uncreated, because it simply IS. http://www.saintcd.com/science-and-faith/277-the-mind-and-its-now.html?showall=1&limitstart=
The statement, 'the now' cannot be turned into an object of physical measurement’, was an interesting statement for Einstein to make since 'the now of the mind' has, from many recent experiments in quantum mechanics, undermined the space-time of Einstein's General Relativity as to being the absolute frame of reference for reality. Indeed, I humorously imagine Quantum Mechanics imitating Laplace's French accent, quipping, “Space-Time? I have no need for that hypothesis!”
Einstein vs quantum mechanics, and why he'd be a convert today - June 13, 2014 Excerpt: In a nutshell, experimentalists John Clauser, Alain Aspect, Anton Zeilinger, Paul Kwiat and colleagues have performed the Bell proposal for a test of Einstein's hidden variable theories. All results so far support quantum mechanics. It seems that when two particles undergo entanglement, whatever happens to one of the particles can instantly affect the other, even if the particles are separated! http://phys.org/news/2014-06-einstein-quantum-mechanics-hed-today.html LIVING IN A QUANTUM WORLD - Vlatko Vedral - 2011 Excerpt: Thus, the fact that quantum mechanics applies on all scales forces us to confront the theory’s deepest mysteries. We cannot simply write them off as mere details that matter only on the very smallest scales. For instance, space and time are two of the most fundamental classical concepts, but according to quantum mechanics they are secondary. The entanglements are primary. They interconnect quantum systems without reference to space and time. If there were a dividing line between the quantum and the classical worlds, we could use the space and time of the classical world to provide a framework for describing quantum processes. But without such a dividing line—and, indeed, with­out a truly classical world—we lose this framework. We must explain space and time (4D space-time) as somehow emerging from fundamentally spaceless and timeless physics. http://phy.ntnu.edu.tw/~chchang/Notes10b/0611038.pdf
i.e. 'the now of the mind', contrary to what Einstein thought possible for experimental physics, and according to advances in quantum mechanics, takes precedence over past events in time. Moreover, due to advances in quantum mechanics, it would now be much more appropriate to phrase Einstein's answer to the philosopher in this way:
"It is impossible for the experience of 'the now of the mind' to ever be divorced from physical measurement, it will always be a part of physics." Reality doesn’t exist until we measure it, (Delayed Choice) quantum experiment confirms - Mind = blown. - FIONA MACDONALD - 1 JUN 2015 Excerpt: "It proves that measurement is everything. At the quantum level, reality does not exist if you are not looking at it," lead researcher and physicist Andrew Truscott said in a press release. http://www.sciencealert.com/reality-doesn-t-exist-until-we-measure-it-quantum-experiment-confirms
You then state Dr. Torely
I repeat: if (as professor Egnor maintains), perception involves “reaching out” and making immediate contact with what is perceived, then we are faced with an irresoluble problem: we cannot make immediate contact with the past. And from our standpoint, the supernova is past, even if from light’s standpoint (and for that matter, God’s) it is not.
From our current standpoint of perceptive knowledge (Egnor), and energy's standpoint of physical knowledge, the supernova is “Now”. And since those points of reference are of a 'higher dimensional' value than temporal time is then they take primary priority over the lower dimensional value of temporal time which you are trying to give primary priority to in this debate. To help get this 'higher dimension' point across to you. Please note, at the 3:22 minute mark of the following video, when the 3-Dimensional world ‘folds and collapses’ into a tunnel shape as a ‘hypothetical’ observer moves towards the ‘higher dimension’ of the speed of light, (Of note: This following video was made by two Australian University Physics Professors with a supercomputer.).
Approaching The Speed Of Light - Optical Effects – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQnHTKZBTI4
Of related interest, the “Flatland” video, which clearly illustrates this principle of higher dimensions, is on the Vienna Quantum Science Group’s outreach page, (i.e. Anton Zeilinger’s home group):
Vienna Group Video Outreach page http://vcq.quantum.at/outreach/multimedia/page-4.html Dr. Quantum in Flatland – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=takn4FPkId4
Thus Dr. Torley, since you are the one arguing that the mind is constrained by time and space, and Dr. Egnor is instead arguing that it is not, then, since mind clearly is not constrained by time and space in our daily subjective experience, then, as far as the empirical evidence itself is concerned, Dr. Egnor literally has the high ground in this debate since light is shown to have this higher dimensional 'timeless' property to it that is coterminous with the 'timeless' property we also perceive for our mind. Of related note:
The Puzzling Role Of Biophotons In The Brain - Dec. 17, 2010 Excerpt: In recent years, a growing body of evidence shows that photons play an important role in the basic functioning of cells. Most of this evidence comes from turning the lights off and counting the number of photons that cells produce. It turns out, much to many people’s surprise, that many cells, perhaps even most, emit light as they work. In fact, it looks very much as if many cells use light to communicate. There’s certainly evidence that bacteria, plants and even kidney cells communicate in this way. Various groups have even shown that rats brains are literally alight thanks to the photons produced by neurons as they work.,,, ,,, earlier this year, one group showed that spinal neurons in rats can actually conduct light. ,, Rahnama and co point out that neurons contain many light sensitive molecules, such as porphyrin rings, flavinic, pyridinic rings, lipid chromophores and aromatic amino acids. In particular, mitochondria, the machines inside cells which produce energy, contain several prominent chromophores. The presence of light sensitive molecules makes it hard to imagine how they might not be not influenced by biophotons.,,, They go on to suggest that the light channelled by microtubules can help to co-ordinate activities in different parts of the brain. It’s certainly true that electrical activity in the brain is synchronised over distances that cannot be easily explained. Electrical signals travel too slowly to do this job, so something else must be at work.,,, (So) It’s a big jump to assume that photons do this job. http://www.technologyreview.com/view/422069/the-puzzling-role-of-biophotons-in-the-brain/
bornagain
December 14, 2015
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vjtorley:
My main reason for rejecting this solution and positing that thoughts and choices occur in an immaterial soul is that there appear to be several weighty philosophical arguments against materialism. In particular: free choices presuppose a capacity for abstract thinking; but a process taking place at a particular point in space and time is incapable of embodying a universal, abstract concept. Additionally, free choices and the thoughts that accompany them have an inherent meaning in their own right, but bodily processes such as neuronal firings are not inherently meaningful; hence a bodily process is incapable of embodying a free choice. The Thomist philosopher Professor Feser has handily summarized some of the best philosophical arguments against materialism here, here, here, here and here.
But I am not a Christian materialist. I am a Yin-Yang dualist through and through. I believe that both matter (brain) and spirit are necessary for consciousness. It requires BOTH a knower (spirit) and a known (one or more physical representation in the brain).
Looking at Scripture, I am also aware that a very powerful Biblical case can be made for the view that consciousness ceases at death, and that the dead sleep in the dust of the earth until they are raised again. If I had nothing but the Old Testament to go on, that would be my view, too. However, I believe that there are several New Testament verses that swing the evidence decisively the other way: Luke 23:43 (“Jesus answered him, ‘Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise'”), Philippians 1:23 (“I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far”) and 2 Corinthians 5:8 (“We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord”), especially.
First, while I admire Paul and his teachings, I do not worship him or any other Biblical writer as some infallible God. The man was obviously wrong about many things, not the least of which is that he believed that Jesus would return during his lifetime and that many in his day would not experience death. Second, I disagree with the interpretation of "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise." The original Greek did not have the comma. The verse should have been translated thus: "Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise." Besides, Jesus did not go to paradise after his death. He was placed in a grave and was dead for 3 days.
I think that Christian materialists are wrong, but my faith in Christianity would not be shattered were someone to prove to me that a materialist account of human nature is true, so long as such an account left open the possibility of genuine libertarian freedom. For that reason, I think that Mapou and others who think like him should be given a respectful hearing.
Thank you. But, again, I am not a materialist. I am a true-blue dualist.Mapou
December 14, 2015
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Hi Mapou, Thank you for your comments. You write: "I have never seen any scripture that claims that Yahweh is omniscient or that Yahweh knows all past present and future. The link you provided is no exception." OK, what about Psalm 139:4? "Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O LORD, you know it altogether." Or what about Isaiah 46:9? "I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things not yet done." I'd say that's pretty clear, wouldn't you? You add: "A being that knows all past, present and future is a being that is impotent, i.e., a being that can never change its mind." Such a Being would have no need to change its Mind. Knowing everything makes it omnipotent, rather than impotent, for God's power derives from what He knows and understands. You object to the notion of God's omniscience on two grounds: "First off, since only the present exists, the claim is self-refuting. Second, omniscience and omnipotence assumes that infinity is a logical concept. It is not. It is a cretinous concept. Infinity leads to an infinite regress by definition. Parmenides of Elea proved it: either infinity exists and motion/change does not, or infinity is bogus and we have motion. Take your pick." Parmenides' mathematical fallacy was to assume that an infinite number of distances cannot be traversed in a finite time. That's not true. Parmenides' argument would work, if all of these distances were greater than some number N, which is greater than 0. but they're not. Putting it very simply: 1+0.5+0.25+0.125+0.0625+....=2. Your claim that "only the present exists" is question-begging. It invites the obvious response: "Exists when?" The answer is, of course, "Now." The past did exist, but does not now exist; neither does the future, although it will exist. So your statement really amounts to the trivial claim: "Only what now exists, exists now." True, but irrelevant. God is a timeless being. There's no reason why past, present and future events could not all co-exist from a timeless perspective.vjtorley
December 14, 2015
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Man, I ain’t talking to you.
I know. :D Still, welcome to CrackpotVille! Hmm, I'm wondering what J-Mac's version of reality is.Vy
December 14, 2015
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Vy, Man, I ain't talking to you.Mapou
December 14, 2015
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Oh, by the way. A being that knows all past, present and future is a being that is impotent, i.e., a being that can never change its mind. Think about it. This whole infinity thing is pure unmitigated, superstitious bogosity. But don't feel bad. The materialists, too, believe in the same infinity crackpottery. And they, too, are 100% wrong.Mapou
December 14, 2015
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Wait, is that the same guy that keeps yapping about "crackpottery"? Shocka!
My view is that Yahweh is an ancient, highly advanced and perfectly united civilization consisting of billions of individuals.
I can't LOOOOOOOO...L enough. According to your buddy J-Mac, that's crackpottery. Welcome to the club! You might wanna stop making comments like this:
Every argument for omni-anything is refuted by the above. Any belief in infinity is not only bogus, it is a sign of a serious mental dysfunction, IMO.
In light of your never observed supposedly "perfect united civilization of billions of aliens" assertion, it holds as much weight as a Darwinist saying "your mind is not open", NONE. As you said, "I['m] tell[ing] it like I see it." :D LOL!Vy
December 14, 2015
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Torley @133, I have never seen any scripture that claims that Yahweh is omniscient or that Yahweh knows all past present and future. The link you provided is no exception. First off, since only the present exists, the claim is self-refuting. Second, omniscience and omnipotence assumes that infinity is a logical concept. It is not. It is a cretinous concept. Infinity leads to an infinite regress by definition. Parmenides of Elea proved it: either infinity exists and motion/change does not, or infinity is bogus and we have motion. Take your pick. Every argument for omni-anything is refuted by the above. Any belief in infinity is not only bogus, it is a sign of a serious mental dysfunction, IMO. Humans were designed and constructed in the image of the Elohim (lords). We are just like the Gods. We, too, are Gods. The only difference is that we are made of ordinary matter whereas the Gods are made of something else. My view is that Yahweh is an ancient, highly advanced and perfectly united civilization consisting of billions of individuals. They got lonely and decided they needed a companion civilization. So they created humanity. It's a grand and wonderful experiment. As always, I tell it like I see it.Mapou
December 14, 2015
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Thanks for your comment @133 Mr Torley, it is something to mull over.Jack Jones
December 14, 2015
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Hi bornagain, I'd just like to make a few brief remarks in response to your posts, before you sum up your case. 1. You invoke relativistic time dilation as a solution to how we can perceive past events, such as supernova explosions. You argue that from the viewpoint of a photon emitted by the dying star, no time elapses between the photon's emission and the photon's hitting our retinas, when we perceive the explosion. I'm afraid that won't help. For what matters here is not the photon's point of view, but the human percipient's, and from the percipient's point of view, time is all too real. I repeat: if (as professor Egnor maintains), perception involves "reaching out" and making immediate contact with what is perceived, then we are faced with an irresoluble problem: we cannot make immediate contact with the past. And from our standpoint, the supernova is past, even if from light's standpoint (and for that matter, God's) it is not. 2. You question my assertion that Dean Radin believes that perception can occur even in the absence of a physical encounter with the perceived object, arguing that the six experiments he describes don't involve any such thing. Never mind those. Have a look at his Webpage, titled, Selected Peer-Reviewed Publications on Psi Research. You'll see that several links refer to "extra-sensory perception" and "remote viewing." See also this blog post here. I rest my case. 3. As for Professor Egnor's views on the subject, it is enough to know that he is a self-described Aristotelian-Thomist. Look. I've been reading Aristotle all my adult life, and I know that he wouldn't have had a bar of Dr. Radin's "psi": he describes perception as a bodily process in his De Anima, and for him, the notion of someone's seeing without using their eyes or of viewing events from a perspective outside their body (as is supposed to happen in remote viewing) would have made no sense at all. St. Thomas Aquinas followed Aristotle's views on perception. Egnor himself acknowledges: "Perception is a wholly material thing — it does have location." He also remarks that "a subject perceives a sensory stimulus" - which implies that perception must involve the subject's body. Additionally, he writes: "There is no question that perceptions occur via the object, the sense organs, and the brain." Thus I'd be very surprised if Professor Egnor (who is a Thomist) believes in remote viewing. 4. You cite Libet's finding that "subject perceives a sensory stimulus on the skin at the moment the skin is touched, before the stimulus reaches the brain and before full deliberative consciousness occurs." However, physicist S. Pockett, who analyzed Libet's experiments in detail (see here) concluded that "'subjective back-referral of sensations in time' to the time of the stimulus does not occur." You then add that the "mind also has the power to reach all the way down to the molecular level of our bodies and have pronounced effects on the gene expression of our bodies." Fine, but there's no evidence that such power is exercised instantaneously. The brain's ability to influence the body is limited by the speed of transmission of nerve impulses, and there's no evidence that the mind can bypass this avenue, when controlling the body. 5. I should warn you, by the way, that Dean Radin's methodology for assessing the credibility of parapsychology claims is very poor. It has been roundly debunked here. I have studied statistics at university, and I know enough to recognize egregious errors in methodology when I see them. Dale DeBakcsy's debunking is pretty devastating. Commenting on Radin's recent book, Supernormal, DeBakscy writes:
It is one of the deep ironies of this book that it begins with such extended flights of frustration about skeptics’ responses to parapsychological data, and then spends its middle section doing everything that one can possibly do to rouse a skeptical response — misrepresenting report data, lowering success criteria, and playing a somewhat loose game with how rigorously confidence information is presented. I find it all immensely irritating. I very much want to know what the data is, and how trustworthy it is... Radin is ever in this book his own worst enemy.
6. Finally, I don't know why you think that imputing causal powers to natural objects is at odds with theism. The vast majority of medieval philosophers (and Christian philosophers down to the 18th century) accepted the Aristotelian view that natural objects have causal powers, imparted to them by God. That does not make them intentional agents, as they don't know what they are doing or why they're doing it. But they are agents nonetheless. It would be ridiculous to deny that when opposite charges attract, they act on each other; it is not just God Who is doing the acting here. To deny that objects act is tantamount to denying that they are real; for if action is denied to them, what else remains? In "obeying" the laws of Nature, objects are simply exercising their powers, in accordance with their natures, but because the exercise of these powers is rule-governed, this means that God's continual and active support is required, in order for them to act at all. Nevertheless, they do act. There's nothing pagan or un-Christian about this view of secondary causality; I'm amazed that you take exception to it. I repeat: please read Freddoso's short article on the subject, if you read nothing else. I await your final summation, and I would urge you to use your own words, and nothing else. We've seen enough links to what other writers think; I'd like to know what you think. Over to you, and good luck.vjtorley
December 14, 2015
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Hi everyone, I'd like to address Mapou's contention that not only perceptions, but also abstract thoughts and choices, take place in the human brain, and not in any immaterial soul. It so happens that I reject this view, but my main grounds for doing so are philosophical, and they relate to the nature of thought itself. I don't think that free will conflicts with materialism, provided that one believes in a top-down materialism, in which higher-level "macro" processes in the brain (which correspond to our free choices) can bring about lower-level "micro" processes in the brain, as well as initiating bodily movements. This would be a satisfactory solution, provided that the higher-level "macro" processes in the brain are not determined by any lower-level processes occurring at an earlier time. In other words, higher-level brain processes need to be ontologically fundamental: they do not supervene on our lower-level brain states. I discussed this view in a 2011 post titled, Why I think the interaction problem is real (in which I also proposed a solution to the problem). My main reason for rejecting this solution and positing that thoughts and choices occur in an immaterial soul is that there appear to be several weighty philosophical arguments against materialism. In particular: free choices presuppose a capacity for abstract thinking; but a process taking place at a particular point in space and time is incapable of embodying a universal, abstract concept. Additionally, free choices and the thoughts that accompany them have an inherent meaning in their own right, but bodily processes such as neuronal firings are not inherently meaningful; hence a bodily process is incapable of embodying a free choice. The Thomist philosopher Professor Feser has handily summarized some of the best philosophical arguments against materialism here, here, here, here and here. Looking at Scripture, I am also aware that a very powerful Biblical case can be made for the view that consciousness ceases at death, and that the dead sleep in the dust of the earth until they are raised again. If I had nothing but the Old Testament to go on, that would be my view, too. However, I believe that there are several New Testament verses that swing the evidence decisively the other way: Luke 23:43 ("Jesus answered him, 'Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise'"), Philippians 1:23 ("I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far") and 2 Corinthians 5:8 ("We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord"), especially. I think that Christian materialists are wrong, but my faith in Christianity would not be shattered were someone to prove to me that a materialist account of human nature is true, so long as such an account left open the possibility of genuine libertarian freedom. For that reason, I think that Mapou and others who think like him should be given a respectful hearing.vjtorley
December 14, 2015
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Hi Mapou, mike1962, J-Mac, Vy and Jack Jones, I'd like to answer Mapou's question: "How can God be called omniscient, if He has regrets?" It's a reasonable question. Genesis 6:6 states that God has regrets, as mike1962 points out. In a similar vein, J-Mac asks: "So, did God know that Adam and Eve would sin?" Vy answers "Yes," and argues that there is no contradiction between God's knowing what I will do and my doing it freely: God foreknows but does not foreordain my choices. Jack Jones advances the interesting theory that God has the ability to access the future, but does not always exercise this ability; hence, He is capable of being surprised. I'd like to offer my own take on the subject. First, there are numerous Bible verses, in the Old Testament as well as the New, which affirm that God is omniscient, and that He knows things before they take place. Accordingly, many Christians tend to downplay the significance of Genesis 6:6, arguing that the Holy Spirit was speaking in simple, anthropomorphic language to a rude and simple people - in other words, God was talking down to Moses and the Israelites. These Christians also contend that the intention of the author of Genesis 6:6 was not to teach us about the limits of God's knowledge; rather, it was to teach us about the enormity of human wickedness, prior to the Deluge. However, I think that this attempt at minimization goes too far, and that there is a sense in which God can be said to have regrets. I'd like to return to J-Mac's question: "So, did God know that Adam and Eve would sin?" Vy answers "Yes." I would answer "No," even though I maintain that God is omniscient. How can this be? The short answer is that I hold to a Boethian view of Divine foreknowledge: God is like a watcher on a high hill Who timelessly views the past, present and future. God is a spectator of human events; this means that He does not make them happen, but is made aware that they happen. Because God is outside time and space, there is no temporal "before" and "after" with God: all things are present. But in the order of causality, it is our choices that determine God's awareness of them, and not the other way round (as predestinationists think). Hence God's awareness of Adam and Eve's choice is logically posterior to, and not prior to, the choice itself. Insofar as Adam and Eve's choice was contrary to God's wishes, we may speak of God as being disappointed and even as having regrets, regarding their choice. The same goes for any other bad choice that people make. However, it would be wrong to speak of God as being surprised by our choices, because surprise can only occur in time, and there never is any time at which God does not know what we have done, are doing and will do. God timelessly knows the totality of our choices, past, present and future, but His knowledge of these choices is passive. That's why foreknowledge and freedom don't conflict. God's knowing that Adam and Eve would sin, prior to His decision to make them, would mean that His knowledge is causally prior to their choice - which makes Him responsible for that choice. However, God's knowing (timelessly) that Adam and Eve did sin, at the dawn of human history, is quite compatible with God's knowledge of their choice being caused by (and hence, causally posterior to) Adam and Eve's making the choice they did, which preserves Adam and Eve's freedom and in no way makes God responsible. So, to sum up: God doesn't know what I would do, but He does know everything I have done, am now doing and will do, as a timeless spectator of human events. There are of course times when God actively intervenes in human history, as well. That's my take on the subject, for what it's worth.vjtorley
December 14, 2015
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@115 "So either the Hebrew/Christian God can have regrets. and therefore limited knowledge of the future. Or else Genesis is fiction. Take your pick." Having the ability to access the future and always using the ability is not the same thing.Jack Jones
December 13, 2015
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I beg your pardon? What choice are you talking about?
It's called freewill, ever heard of it?
You seem to have forgotten that you said that God had already known in advance that Adam and Eve would sin but for some reason he didn’t know whether they are going to tell the truth or lie?
False. I said He gave them a choice. The fact that He gave them the choice doesn't change the fact that He knew they were going to deflect.
You also seem to have forgotten that according to your belief God was just staging a rerun of what he had already known in advance. The scripts had already been written and read, which God had already known.
That's absolute crap. God did NOT cause anyone to do anything. He knew it, yes. He didn't cause it. Just because I know what exactly what will happen when Jay is done drinking those bottle of Vodkas, enters the Lamborghini and drives off doesn't mean I made him do anything or that I staged it, especially when I warned him.
So, what choice could Adam and Eve have possibly had? Could they have changed what God had already known what they were going to say?
Could they have? Yes. Did they? No. Did God know they wouldn't? Yes.
I’m sure that your numerous contradictions are carrying a lot of weight.
Yet another baseless assertion. Show me evidence of just ONE contradiction. Your post amounts to nothing more than a confused blob of assertions. You somehow think that because God knows something will happen means that He either causes it or that we've been programmed to do exactly that. Here's a good analogy from CMI:
Imagine a man in a car driving along a narrow country road. He passes a cow and is approaching a bend. On the other side of the bend is a large semi-trailer travelling at high speed on the wrong side of the road. A crash is inevitable. To the driver, approaching the bend, the cow is now in the past, he is experiencing the present, and his hitting the semi-trailer is in the future. Now imagine a pilot in a helicopter above the scene. The pilot can see the cow, the car, and the semi-trailer all at once, so in a sense, what is past, present and future to the driver is all one to the pilot. Furthermore the pilot can see that a crash is inevitable, even though the driver does not know it is going to happen. Does the pilot cause the crash just because he knows it is going to happen?
According to what you're saying, that would be a "YES"Vy
December 13, 2015
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One more thing I would like to further reflect on Dr. Torley. In post 113, I stated
I think it is good to reiterate what is actually going on physically
I then gave a brief overview of what was actually going on physically as far as special relativity and Quantum Mechanics were concerned:
due to special relativity, from the photons point of view, there is ZERO time delay between emission from the star’s surface and perception by a retina.,,, As far as the photon itself is concerned, it arrived instantly. As far as quantum mechanics is concerned, it is impossible for us to say exactly what the photon was doing between the time it was emitted from the star and was observed by us.
So far, so good. But, Dr. Torley now, since you are literally soaking in materialistic premises, you might be inclined to think that once the photon hits the retina there would still be a time delay before we, i.e. our conscious mind, could perceive it. In other words, you might be inclined to think you still have a materialistic defeater for Egnor's argument. In response to that potential defeater, I would first like to point out that we do have evidence that the mind does indeed have causal power not only within the brain, as you would hold Dr. Torley, but also within body. First off, 'Brain Plasticity' to a person's focused intention has now been established by Jeffrey Schwartz's work, as well as among other researchers.
The Case for the Soul - InspiringPhilosophy - (4:03 minute mark, Brain Plasticity including Schwartz's work) - Oct. 2014 - video The Mind is able to modify the brain (brain plasticity). Moreover, Idealism explains all anomalous evidence of personality changes due to brain injury, whereas physicalism cannot explain mind. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBsI_ay8K70
Also of related note to the mind having causal power in the brain:
,,, zero time lag neuronal synchrony despite long conduction delays - 2008 Excerpt: Multielectrode recordings have revealed zero time lag synchronization among remote cerebral cortical areas. However, the axonal conduction delays among such distant regions can amount to several tens of milliseconds. It is still unclear which mechanism is giving rise to isochronous discharge of widely distributed neurons, despite such latencies,,, Remarkably, synchrony of neuronal activity is not limited to short-range interactions within a cortical patch. Interareal synchronization across cortical regions including interhemispheric areas has been observed in several tasks (7, 9, 11–14).,,, Beyond its functional relevance, the zero time lag synchrony among such distant neuronal ensembles must be established by mechanisms that are able to compensate for the delays involved in the neuronal communication. Latencies in conducting nerve impulses down axonal processes can amount to delays of several tens of milliseconds between the generation of a spike in a presynaptic cell and the elicitation of a postsynaptic potential (16). The question is how, despite such temporal delays, the reciprocal interactions between two brain regions can lead to the associated neural populations to fire in unison (i.e. zero time lag).,,, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2575223/ The following paper appeals to a ‘non-local’, (i.e. beyond space and time), cause to try to explain the zero lag synchronization in neural circuits,,, Nonlocal mechanism for cluster synchronization in neural circuits – 2011 Excerpt: The findings,,, call for reexamining sources of correlated activity in cortex,,, per - arxiv
Of course, for those of us not wedded to the materialistic philosophy, and who believe that we have a mind that is not reducible to materialistic explanations, this type of instantaneous 'non-local' activity is expected to be found in the brain But Dr. Torley, in a finding that would directly challenge the materialistic belief that human consciousness is limited solely to the brain in its effects, (a point that you are currently defending), it is also now found, completely contrary to materialistic thought, that mind also has the power to reach all the way down to the molecular level of our bodies and have pronounced effects on the gene expression of our bodies:
Scientists Finally Show How Your Thoughts Can Cause Specific Molecular Changes To Your Genes, - December 10, 2013 Excerpt: “To the best of our knowledge, this is the first paper that shows rapid alterations in gene expression within subjects associated with mindfulness meditation practice,” says study author Richard J. Davidson, founder of the Center for Investigating Healthy Minds and the William James and Vilas Professor of Psychology and Psychiatry at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. “Most interestingly, the changes were observed in genes that are the current targets of anti-inflammatory and analgesic drugs,” says Perla Kaliman, first author of the article and a researcher at the Institute of Biomedical Research of Barcelona, Spain (IIBB-CSIC-IDIBAPS), where the molecular analyses were conducted.,,, the researchers say, there was no difference in the tested genes between the two groups of people at the start of the study. The observed effects were seen only in the meditators following mindfulness practice. In addition, several other DNA-modifying genes showed no differences between groups, suggesting that the mindfulness practice specifically affected certain regulatory pathways. http://www.tunedbody.com/scientists-finally-show-thoughts-can-cause-specific-molecular-changes-genes/
This finding, besides challenging the belief, that you are defending Dr. Torley, that mind is strictly limited to the brain in its effects, also certainly challenges the materialistic belief that we are merely helpless victims of our genes. But to continue on, Dr. Egnor accompanied his first post with this following surprising fact that I was not aware of:
Do Perceptions Happen in Your Brain? - Michael Egnor - December 1, 2015 Excerpt: He (Aristotle) commented that the mind is not a passive recipient of perceptions -- it actively grasps the sensible properties of objects and it does so externally -- at the objects perceived. Remarkably, Aristotle's simple rule of perception is consistent with experiment. The sensory experiments of Benjamin Libet, a neuroscientist at U.C. San Francisco in the mid 20th century, demonstrated that a subject perceives a sensory stimulus on the skin at the moment the skin is touched, before the stimulus reaches the brain and before full deliberative consciousness occurs. Libet was flabbergasted by this result and hypothesized that "the subjective timing of the experience is (automatically) referred backwards in time." Yet Aristotle offered a much simpler and logically coherent explanation -- the stimulus on the skin is perceived on the skin, not in the brain. Perception occurs at the location of the stimulus, not in the brain. Only your perception of your brain would genuinely be "in your brain," just as your perception of the pain in your finger is in your finger, and the perception of the tree in your yard is in your yard. Your mind is not bound by location. Wherever the object is that you perceive, the location of the object is where you perceive it. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/12/do_perceptions101261.html
Dr. Torley, I think you may have touched briefly on this experiment by Libet in your first response to Dr. Egnor but, regardless of whether you accepted the result or not, (if I remember correctly, I believe you tried to refute it), the fact that I want to now point out is that, as far as empirical evidence itself is concerned, Dr. Egnor's contention, and Libet's results, actually do have a plausible 'mechanism' to explain instantaneous perception. Although the following meta-study is not directly related to the current issue we are talking about, since it strongly implies some level of extra-sensory perception, I would, none-the-less, like to highlight one quote in particular from the following meta-study:
Can Your Body Sense Future Events Without Any External Clue? (meta-analysis of 26 reports published between 1978 and 2010) - (Oct. 22, 2012) Excerpt: "But our analysis suggests that if you were tuned into your body, you might be able to detect these anticipatory changes between two and 10 seconds beforehand,,, This phenomenon is sometimes called "presentiment," as in "sensing the future," but Mossbridge said she and other researchers are not sure whether people are really sensing the future. "I like to call the phenomenon 'anomalous anticipatory activity,'" she said. "The phenomenon is anomalous, some scientists argue, because we can't explain it using present-day understanding about how biology works; though explanations related to recent quantum biological findings could potentially make sense. It's anticipatory because it seems to predict future physiological changes in response to an important event without any known clues, and it's an activity because it consists of changes in the cardiopulmonary, skin and nervous systems." http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/10/121022145342.htm
And just as “explanations related to recent quantum biological findings could potentially make sense” of the preceding meta-study on 'sensing the future', so too could “explanations related to recent quantum biological findings could potentially make sense” of why, as Libet found, the 'subject perceives a sensory stimulus on the skin at the moment the skin is touched, before the stimulus reaches the brain and before full deliberative consciousness occurs.' Specifically, non-local, beyond space and time, quantum entanglement/information is now found in every protein and DNA molecule of our body:
Classical and Quantum Information Channels in Protein Chain -  Dj. Koruga, A. Tomi?, Z. Ratkaj, L. Matija - 2006 Abstract: Investigation of the properties of peptide plane in protein chain from both classical and quantum approach is presented. We calculated interatomic force constants for peptide plane and hydrogen bonds between peptide planes in protein chain. On the basis of force constants, displacements of each atom in peptide plane, and time of action we found that the value of the peptide plane action is close to the Planck constant. This indicates that peptide plane from the energy viewpoint possesses synergetic classical/quantum properties. Consideration of peptide planes in protein chain from information viewpoint also shows that protein chain possesses classical and quantum properties. So, it appears that protein chain behaves as a triple dual system: (1) structural - amino acids and peptide planes, (2) energy - classical and quantum state, and (3) information - classical and quantum coding. Based on experimental facts of protein chain, we proposed from the structure-energy-information viewpoint its synergetic code system. http://www.scientific.net/MSF.518.491 Quantum coherent-like state observed in a biological protein for the first time - October 13, 2015 Excerpt: If you take certain atoms and make them almost as cold as they possibly can be, the atoms will fuse into a collective low-energy quantum state called a Bose-Einstein condensate. In 1968 physicist Herbert Fröhlich predicted that a similar process at a much higher temperature could concentrate all of the vibrational energy in a biological protein into its lowest-frequency vibrational mode. Now scientists in Sweden and Germany have the first experimental evidence of such so-called Fröhlich condensation (in proteins).,,, The real-world support for Fröhlich's theory (for proteins) took so long to obtain because of the technical challenges of the experiment, Katona said. http://phys.org/news/2015-10-quantum-coherent-like-state-biological-protein.html Classical and Quantum Information in DNA – Elisabeth Rieper – video (Longitudinal Quantum Information along the entire length of DNA discussed at the 19:30 minute mark; at 24:00 minute mark Dr Rieper remarks that practically the whole DNA molecule can be viewed as quantum information with classical information embedded within it) https://youtu.be/2nqHOnVTxJE?t=1176
Dr. Torley, finding non-local, beyond space and time quantum entanglement in every protein and DNA molecule in our body certainly provides an adequate mechanism for explaining how Libet's 'instantaneous perception' results, which Dr. Egnor referenced, are possible.
Looking beyond space and time to cope with quantum theory – 29 October 2012 Excerpt: “Our result gives weight to the idea that quantum correlations somehow arise from outside spacetime, in the sense that no story in space and time can describe them,” http://www.quantumlah.org/highlight/121029_hidden_influences.php
bornagain
December 13, 2015
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Vy, "He was giving them a choice to lie or tell the truth“ isn’t direct enough for you? I beg your pardon? What choice are you talking about? You seem to have forgotten that you said that God had already known in advance that Adam and Eve would sin but for some reason he didn't know whether they are going to tell the truth or lie? You also seem to have forgotten that according to your belief God was just staging a rerun of what he had already known in advance. The scripts had already been written and read, which God had already known. So, what choice could Adam and Eve have possibly had? Could they have changed what God had already known what they were going to say? I'm sure that your numerous contradictions are carrying a lot of weight.J-Mac
December 13, 2015
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Congratulation Vy! I didn’t know your beliefs were as blinded as they actually are.
What a baseless claim. Before you post anymore rants, would you be willing to point out what your absolutely proven non-crackpot beliefs are?
Maybe UD can do an entire post on this issue, so that both religious and others can comment on as to what your crackpot belief implies?
What my crackpot belief implies? You seem to think baseless assertions about what my beliefs are hold any weight.Vy
December 13, 2015
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