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Timaeus Exposes Larry Moran

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All that follows is from UD commenter Timaeus:

Larry Moran wrote:

“I’ve been trying to teach Denyse about evolution for almost twenty years. It’s not working.”

Perhaps teaching is not your strong point, Larry. There is some empirical evidence of that, I believe.

Or perhaps it is expertise that is the problem. Last time I checked your website for your publications on evolutionary theory, I found many popular articles on ID and creationism, and some apparently self-published biochemical data on your university website. I couldn’t find a single article on evolutionary theory in a peer-reviewed journal on the subject for over 10 years into the past. For someone who has so many opinions on evolution, and voices them so loudly in non-professionally-controlled environments such as blog sites, you are surprisingly absent from the professional discussions. Perhaps you can explain the inverse relationship between your popular involvement in debates over evolution and your visibility in the technical books and articles on the subject of evolution.

It strikes me that spending hundreds of hours every year trying to convince ID people and creationists they are wrong would not be as profitable a use of a Toronto professor’s time as actually researching evolutionary mechanisms and publishing the findings at academic conferences, in books, and in journals.

[TIME PASSES]

I’ll take Larry Moran’s silence on my request for a list of his recent peer-reviewed publications in evolutionary biology as a concession that he has no such publications. I.e., I will infer that he is a commentator on debates over evolutionary theory, not an evolutionary theorist himself.

Of course, being a commentator on something is not a bad thing in itself. For someone to say: “Gould says such-and-such about evolutionary mechanisms, and Futuyma says something different, and Coyne says something different, and here are some of the points over which these men have disagreed” — that would be pedagogically useful for many readers. But that’s not the way Larry Moran has ever written about evolution.

Larry writes in this fashion: “Evolution doesn’t happen that way; it happens this way.” That is, Larry does not merely describe what the experts think, and indicate areas of possible strength in weakness in their various views, but tells his readers which views are right and which are wrong, which evolutionary biologists know what they are talking about and which don’t. He poses as someone who can referee the conflicts, who stands above all the others and can pass judgment on their scientific competence and the correctness of their theories, and, in a pinch, when none of them is right, can tell us the way evolution really happened, on his own authority. This is pretty arrogant for a guy with no recent publications in the field, and whose work (as far as I can tell) is never or rarely cited by Shapiro, Newman, Wagner, Jablonka, or any of the other currently important evolutionary theorists.

Larry has an inflated idea of his own importance within evolutionary theory. In fact, in reality, he is just one more of 10,000 guys in the world with a Ph.D. in biology or biochemistry or genetics who is under the illusion that knowing one of those fields automatically makes one an expert on evolutionary theory and evolutionary mechanisms. But the people who actually *do* evolutionary theory seem to take little notice of Larry Moran (or his blog site) at all.

Of course, maybe I’m wrong. Maybe Larry regularly gets invited to big conferences on evolutionary theory to be the keynote speaker; maybe his judgments are revered around the world the way Ernst Mayr’s used to be. If so, I’ll be glad to be corrected, and to retract my statements. Someone here can write in with evidence of the hundreds of times Larry’s research on evolutionary mechanisms have been cited in the literature, with the details of the publications Larry hasn’t bothered to list on his web site, etc. What I can see for the moment, however, is that Larry Moran is a nobody in evolutionary theory, a biochemistry teacher at Toronto with an interest in evolutionary theory who is convinced he knows more about it than almost everyone else on the planet, but with no track record to corroborate that opinion.

That’s the problem with the internet age. Through web sites and blogs, it gives people the ability to be prominent, and many readers assume that prominence equals importance. But it doesn’t. The Kardashians and Paris Hilton are as prominent in popular culture as Tom Hanks or Meryl Streep, but they aren’t nearly as important. To be important, as opposed to prominent, one has to demonstrate ability. *Ability*, not the verbal fluency to hold forth on a subject on a blog site. And in science, ability is proved not on blog sites but at conferences, in articles, and in books. So what is needed is a list of Larry’s publications in these venues.

Comments
Zachriel #14, For one thing, from the logics point of view, their 'in contrast' is erroneous because before making that claim they need to demonstrate that design and evolution are mutually exclusive. My take on this is that evolution does happen within its limits (which are fuzzy but tangible); and yet this is perfectly compatible with the concept of design in biology. Secondly, there is no such thing as the theory of evolution. Many evolutionary biologists understand the phrase 'the theory of evolution' in different ways. In particular, it appears that the number of qualified supporters of Darwinian evolution is relatively small nowadays. Given all that, I doubt the authority of that claim.EugeneS
June 2, 2015
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Timaeus: I’ll take Larry Moran’s silence on my request for a list of his recent peer-reviewed publications in evolutionary biology as a concession that he has no such publications. I.e., I will infer that he is a commentator on debates over evolutionary theory, not an evolutionary theorist himself. Larry Moran has published many scientific papers, including a number just on the HSP70 gene family found in the journals Gene, Developmental biology, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, Molecular and Cellular Biology, ... Larry Moran has a PhD from the Department of Biochemistry at Princeton, and is currently a Professor in the Department of Biochemistry at the University of Toronto. http://biochemistry.utoronto.ca/person/laurence-a-moran/ -- If we were to make an appeal to authority, then we might want to note this:
NATIONAL ACADEMY of SCIENCES: "The theory of evolution has become the central unifying concept of biology and is a critical component of many related scientific disciplines. In contrast, the claims of creation science lack empirical support and cannot be meaningfully tested." http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=6024&page=1
Zachriel
June 2, 2015
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Dr JDD
This when the leaders and loudest members of a field are so indignant, unengaging with critique, arrogant and rude, we can guarantee that is the culture being fostered in the next generation.
Good points. The younger generations are shaped by their teachers and leaders. Coyne, Dawkins, Myers, Moran and other of the most prominent shrill-atheist types are generally older - in their 60s and 70s. They're cultural heroes to kids who are generally clueless and would normally follow rock-stars around (but there aren't any of those any more). So, the neo-atheists are the voices of cultural destruction that kids are taught to love and emulate in the revolutionary model of society. But an ID viewpoint points to order and purpose - the beauty of the universe as a given intent -- symmetries, balance, harmony, marvelous complex functionality ... all of that should help shape one's thinking and attitude. It would be very refreshing and healthy for students to be shaped by those ideas, rather than the chaos of materialistic nihilism that they are getting from the new atheists. I think we also have to be careful about being drawn into a personality conflict. The neo-atheists are agitators and attention-seekers so the bad-boy routines are all part of the circus act. Anybody who is reasonable enough to stand back and look at them dispassionately will see how insane that attitude really is -- and more importantly, that they really have very little to say. That's the great thing about nihilism (in a sense) -- it's just nothing. There's no reason even to argue about anything, except that if one didn't argue (that is, attack, insult, berate, condescend), it would be an even more lonely existence.Silver Asiatic
June 2, 2015
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Yes, nad med. It shouldn't surprise us that in ridiculing ID and its adherents, such numb-skulls are ridiculing Einstein's scientific world-view, a world-view he plainly enjoyed waxing very lyrical about - not to speak of that of his other great paradigm-changing contemporaries, and the common-sense, fortunately of the vast majority of mankind. They are nothing more than ephemeral pimples on the backside of human thought and discovery, as arrogant as they are fatuous.Axel
June 2, 2015
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Agreement aside, another point to consider is the effect this has on others. I left academia a number of years ago in favour of industry as I found the whole system quite irrelevant to translational science and filled with and fueled by egos and arrogance. Politics and who you knew determined your career more than anything. God help you if you dare challenge the consensus. One thing I have noticed about different departments and companies I have seen grow in industry is how it takes just a few strong characters of a particular type to for the dominant culture. Usually these are the ones that are loudest but those most respected can impact. That is why we are so careful to assess personality when interviewing candidates and take it into consideration just as much if not more so than their scientific CVs. This when the leaders and loudest members of a field are so indignant, unengaging with critique, arrogant and rude, we can guarantee that is the culture being fostered in the next generation. The ID camp would do well to avoid having this culture rub off on them too.Dr JDD
June 2, 2015
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Then do not forget that those atheists are really insane since if materialism is true then there is no truth , no reference line , no logic , no minds ....so in the end are we debating with mere bags of moving molecules ? Their defence of materialism destroys their existence as sane minds but they are blinded by arrogance and prejudice ......hopeless case .nad med
June 2, 2015
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Irrespective of what Larry Moran deserves or not deserves, this come across as very snobbish posts by Timaeus. His message seems to boil down to: only the certified experts in a field have the right to speak up. When pressed by Eric Anderson all he can come up with is one exception to his rule: another certified expert in a closely related field ...
Timaeus: You say that someone might not formally be an expert in a field, but make sound judgments. I concede that this sometimes happens. For example, a physicist might be able to criticize an engineering professor on some points, or even develop a new engineering principle.
Box
June 2, 2015
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Larry is truly deserving of this post. He brings it on himself with his arrogance and belligerence. He talks about critical thinking all the time, but never seems to actually display, or demonstrate, any. This is something that seems quite common among the spokespersons of the antitheist/materialist movement. Contradictions like the above are conspicuous. In addition to Larry, you have Jerry Coyne, who sees himself as a crusader bent on destroying the pernicious grip of religion. A fighter, in other words. And yet he is a fighter with an exceedingly thin skin. He cries 'atheist bashing' every time a post or article criticizes the New Atheists, no matter the reason for the criticism. Then you have Sam Harris, who claims that we have no free will, but then chides Noam Chomsky for not taking 'intent' into account when considering acts of violence. As if intent were possible in the absence of free will. Just talking out of both sides of his mouth. On this site, we have Carpathian discussing the 'immaterial' nature of human codes, seeming not to get that if he is going to claim we live in a material and mechanistic universe, he needs to explain the very existence of that which is 'immaterial'. But he doesn't. If it serves his purpose for there to be immaterial things, he posits them. Similarly, if Coyne wants to bash theism but then turn around and call foul each time his own team is criticized, he goes right ahead. If Larry wants to trumpet on and on about this critical thinking skills without actually possessing them, off he goes. If atheism was truly the liberating force (at least some of) the above men seem to think it is, we would expect to see less of such blatant gaps in their reasoning.soundburger
June 2, 2015
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Timaeus:
But that sort of intellectual caution, intellectual humility, seems alien to Larry’s personality. He just runs through the world of evolutionary theory like a crusading knight, declaring the winners and losers, in a form of presentation that is often very rhetorical and not properly expository with appropriate academic qualifications.
The shrill tone of people like Moran, Coyne and Dawkins is a sign of desperation. This culture did not exist 20 years ago. It's a sign of desperation that I think is being fueled by the advent of the internet and the easy access to vast sources of information. Many people can now cheaply and quickly conduct their own research without being told how to think by others. The barbarians are at the gates and the high and mighty are panicking. I can sense the beginning of the end for the materialist age. It will eventually all be forgotten by history but I can't wait to see how it unravels and crashes.Mapou
June 2, 2015
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Eric A, I personally see the "Moran’s holier-than-thou, everyone-who-disagrees-with-me-is-an-IDiot attitude" to be the fundamental point. Despite a lack of recent publication track record (assuming it is true), Dr. Moran surely has much more education then myself on the topics of biology and evolution. However, he has been embarrassingly quick to call people idiots. He thinks he knows far more than he demonstrates that he knows with evidence-based analysis. And generally he comes across as the wrong end of the donkey, so to speak.bFast
June 1, 2015
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Eric: I partly agree with you. Yes, Moran's condescending manner to ID folks is certainly the initial irritant. But it's even more irritating when it's not based on any accomplishment of his own within evolutionary theory. If he were Ernst Mayr or Stephen Jay Gould, I would still complain about his haughty and dismissive manner; but in the case of those people I would acknowledge that the haughtiness sprang out of their awareness of their own massive intellectual accomplishment in the field of evolutionary theory -- an accomplishment acknowledged by many others beside themselves. In Larry's case, I don't see what the basis of the haughtiness is. It seems to be merely his own private judgment that he knows more about evolutionary mechanisms than anyone else, that he thinks more clearly than anyone else, etc. How does one acquire such colossal conceit? I'm about the same age as Larry, and I have great knowledge of a few intellectual fields, and academic publications to boot; but my sense of my own knowledge is always colored by my sense of the vast amount that I don't know, and by how complex judgments in my field are, how easy it is to go wrong when one makes sweeping, unqualified, confident judgments, how wrong I have sometimes been *precisely when I was the most sure that I was being entirely logical and flawless and rigorous in my reasoning*. I can't imagine going on a blog site and, say, sweepingly dismissing Aristotle and sweepingly endorsing Kant (or, even worse, saying that neither Aristotle nor Kant nor anyone so far has really understood the issue, but I do). My instinct would always be to say: Aristotle seems to have grasped this part of the puzzle better than most, but his explanation of point A seems inadequate; Kant, on the other hand, has dealt with point A with a precision lacking in Aristotle, but is not as good at explaining the cause of B and C. But that sort of intellectual caution, intellectual humility, seems alien to Larry's personality. He just runs through the world of evolutionary theory like a crusading knight, declaring the winners and losers, in a form of presentation that is often very rhetorical and not properly expository with appropriate academic qualifications. He could not write in that style in an academic journal of evolutionary theory. Any article written in that style would be rejected. So would any book, if written for a serious academic scientific publisher. And if he went to a big conference, e.g., the Evolution conference in the USA (which I gather he rarely or never deigns to attend), and read a paper in the style of his blogs, he would be severely taken to task on the conference room floor during the question period. But on a blog owned by himself, he can write with perfect academic irresponsibility, declaring the absentee other evolutionary theorists wrong and himself correct. This is not the way natural science has ever been done. It does not belong in the arena of culture war and popular rhetoric. It belongs in the arena of sober professional discussion. And its aim should not be victory -- not the aim of crushing everyone's evolutionary theory but one's own -- but truth. And truth always, or nearly always, requires retracting some of one's points, or qualifying them, or admitting that many things aren't understood. To say "evolution doesn't work that way; it works this way" is impertinent. What should be said is that there are many different weightings of proposed evolutionary mechanisms, and that equally learned scientists disagree about such weightings, and that the judgment one is offering is offered in tentativeness and humility. But that is not the Moran style. Of course, as you point out, it also is not the Coyne style, or the Myers style, or the Ken Miller style, or the Eugenie Scott style, or the Nick Matzke style, or the style of most of the people who post on Panda's Thumb. I'm not singling out Moran alone for overconfidence and dismissiveness of contrary views. But it is interesting that often the people who are the most dismissive of the views of others are those with the least scientific accomplishment themselves -- or those who at one time had accomplishments themselves, but as they have become older have tended to "coast" and involve themselves more in popular book-writing, blogging, flashy stage debates, etc. (e.g., Dawkins, Coyne, Ken Miller). You say that someone might not formally be an expert in a field, but make sound judgments. I concede that this sometimes happens. For example, a physicist might be able to criticize an engineering professor on some points, or even develop a new engineering principle. But precisely if it is the case that Larry can make judgments in evolutionary theory as good as or better than the people who are the certified experts in it, he should have no trouble publishing his results in peer-reviewed journals of evolutionary biology. His accuracy of knowledge and acuity of reasoning would be recognized by those in the field, and rewarded by publication. Why would he limit his observations to blog posts which have absolutely no credibility within the scientific world? (You may remember when, a couple of years ago, Elizabeth Liddle went on here at great length about the process of peer-review and how peer-review greatly improves the outcome of scientific articles, catching all kinds of errors great and small before the article is published. Does Larry agree with that? Or does he think that scientists shouldn't have to write up their insights formally and submit them to technical journals for peer review, but can do science just as well by merely shooting from the hip on a blog site?) Further, if he really is as insightful as the specialists in the field, one would think that some of his remarks would be appearing in their own peer-reviewed work, e.g., "This new result, which one cannot find in the work of Futuyma or Lewontin or Ohno or Wagner, was first established by Larry Moran of Toronto in his Sandwalk column of 7/16/2012, and has proven central to our own research in this paper." Where are such references? So sure, I grant that the "outsider" -- the biochemist who is not an evolutionary theorist per se but knows his own science well and has a keen interest in evolution -- could contribute to evolutionary theory. But "contribution" in science doesn't mean a blog post, and it doesn't mean popular refutations of IDers and creationists. I'm just asking for a list of Larry's contributions to evolutionary theory. He's been a prof for what, 30 years now? -- and he talks and acts as if he is a force to be reckoned with in evolutionary theory; surely there should be some professional track record of his writings on evolutionary mechanisms. I'm just asking for that record, so I can look it up, and decide whether Larry Moran is a brilliant evolutionary theorist -- one of the best in the world, as he clearly thinks -- or a barroom debater who is good at arguing on his feet but incapable of the sort of detailed documentation and argument that is expected of a research scientist in the field of evolutionary theory.Timaeus
June 1, 2015
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Hmmm . . . Timaeus has made some excellent points over the years. And has some valid observations above as well. But I'm not sure the lack of publications or the lack of notoriety in a field is the measure of relevance or correctness or ability to analyze the issues. After all, the vast majority of people who look at issues and hold opinions on those issues are not the noted "experts" in their fields. Furthermore, there is ample evidence that some of the so-called "experts" are way off base from time to time, and it is sometimes the layman -- the "office boy" as Philip Johnson referred to -- who discovers the discrepancies and the holes in the theory, partly because he isn't steeped professionally and socially in the prevailing paradigm. My guess is that Timaeus objects not so much to (a) Moran's lack of publications and notoriety in the field as to (b) Moran's holier-than-thou, everyone-who-disagrees-with-me-is-an-IDiot attitude, in light of the lack of publications and notoriety in the field. Is that the real concern? If so, I can understand calling Moran out on that. Yet there are many others who are alleged experts in their field whose attitude is just as bad -- Jerry Coyne springs to mind, for example. I don't care a whit whether Jerry Coyne is the most well-published and most sought-after professor in his field. His unreasonable attitude and embarrassing lack of basic logical rigor when it comes to the question of design and evolution means that he has absolutely no credibility on that particular issue. Coyne is just one example. Others abound. No doubt Moran should be called on the carpet for his attitude, and it would be wonderful if he would be more civil and professional in his demeanor. But the more substantive issue is whether he is right or not. As to that question, I don't care whether he is the world's foremost acknowledged "expert" or the "office boy."Eric Anderson
June 1, 2015
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I posted something similar to this, though much less eloquent, on PZ Myers blog. Seems like a logical question to me. His readers didn't think so.beau
June 1, 2015
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Larry is delusional. Even if someone presents evidence against his beliefs on evolution, he will say to himself and then publicly:"... so, so many scientists over so many years have been wrong..." I guess Moran doesn't read much besides his regular "bible reading". He should look at some famous losers like astronomer Ptolemy. He believed for over 1500 years, and the most of science with him, that the earth was the center of the universe. Carl Sagan summed it up really well of Ptolemy: “His Earth-centered universe held sway for 1,500 years, a reminder that intellectual capacity is no guarantee against being dead wrong.” What about boneheads?KevNick
June 1, 2015
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One wonders, will that shut him up for good?Mapou
June 1, 2015
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