Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Two pretty good arguments for atheism (courtesy of Dave Mullenix)

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Move over, Professor Richard Dawkins. Atheism has a new champion.

Dave Mullenix has recently come up with not one but two philosophical arguments for atheism. Mullenix’s arguments, unlike Dawkins’, aren’t based on inductive inference, but on the unassailable facts that (i) a certain minimal amount of information (usually several bits) is required to represent a proper name; and (ii) a very large amount of information is required to represent all of the rules we follow, when speaking a language. Any Being that knows your name must be able to keep your name in its mind. That means its mind must be able to store more than one bit, so it can’t be the simple God of classical theism. Moreover, any Being that knows all the rules of a language (as God does, being omniscient) must be extremely complex – much more so than the first cell, say. And if it’s very complex, then its own existence is inherently even more unlikely than that of the living creatures whose existence it is supposed to explain.

I believe in addressing arguments for atheism head-on, especially good ones, so here goes.

Commenting in response to a question which I had previously posed to Dr. Elizabeth Liddle, “Why does a mind require something brain-like?”, Dave Mullenix argued as follows:

I would ignore brains and say instead that any mind needs billions of bits of carefully organized information to exist because a mind is, essentially, huge amounts of information interacting with each other. That’s what thoughts are – information acting on other information.

Think of it this way: Does God know your name? Just “vjtorley” is about 56 bits, although it could probably be compressed to half that. But just to give every one of the six billion plus people alive today a unique identifying code would take over 32 bits per person or several hundred billion bits of info total.

Or think of language in general: If He can understand English, He will need millions of bits of information just to cover the words, let alone how to put them together and do all the other processing that’s associated with understanding a language and that information needs to be “on line”.

This is the single biggest weakness in ID – ID in practice treats the existence of God as a given when in fact any thinking being at all, even a human-quality thinking being, requires so many gigabits of precisely ordered information that the unlikelyhood of that being “just existing” totally overshadows the relatively small information requirements (probably only a few hundred bits) of first life. And once you have first life, evolution can account for all the rest. Just ask Rabbi M. Averick.

I’ve taken the liberty of trying to make Dave Mullenix’s arguments against theism as philosophically rigorous as possible, and this is what I’ve come up with.

Argument A. An argument against the existence of the God of Classical Theism (an absolutely simple and omniscient Being)

1. Any entity that knows someone’s name has a representation of that name within his/her mind.
2. Proper names (e.g. Sam or Meg) have a minimal representation in excess of one bit.
3. If God exists, God knows everyone’s name. (By definition, God is omniscient, according to classical theism.)
4. Therefore if God exists, God’s mind contains representations whose length exceeds one bit.
5. A representation in excess of one bit is composed of multiple (two or more) parts.
6. Therefore if God exists, God’s mind has multiple parts.
7. But if God exists, God’s mind does not have multiple parts. (By definition, God is simple, according to classical theism.)
8. Therefore God does not exist. (If P->Q and P->not Q, then it follows that not P.)

This argument will not trouble all religious believers. Some of them might be tempted to say: “We can jettison classical theism but still retain our belief in God. Maybe God is omniscient, but complex.” But Dave Mullenix’s second argument discredits even this fallback position.

Argument B. An argument against the existence of an omniscient God who created life

1. If God exists, God knows each and every human language. (True by definition of omniscience.)
2. Any entity that knows a language has a representation of all the rules of that language within his/her mind.
3. Rules have a minimal representation in excess of one bit. (A rule contains several words; hence you can’t represent a rule using only a single bit.)
4. Since the rules of a human language include not only phonologic rules, morphologic rules and syntactic rules, but also semantic rules and pragmatic rules, the total number of rules in any given language is vast.
5. Therefore any entity that knows a language is capable of holding a vast number of bits of information (let’s call it N) in his/her mind.
6. Therefore if God exists, God’s mind contains an extremely large number of bits of information. In fact, this number is much larger than N, as N is the number of bits required to specify the rules of just one language, and there are roughly 10,000 languages in existence, to the nearest order of magnitude.
7. However, the number of bits in the minimal representation of the first living cell is smaller than N. (A living cell is complex, but it cannot be as complex as the total set of rules in a human language – otherwise we would be unable to describe the workings of the cell in human language.)
8. Indeed, it is probably the case that the total number of bits required to explain the existence of all life-forms found on Earth today is smaller than N. (Many ID advocates, including Professor Behe, are prepared to assume that front-loading is true. If it is, then the number of bits in the minimal representation of the first living cell is sufficient to explain the diversity of all life-forms found on Earth today.)
9. The more bits an entity requires to specify it, the more complex it is, and hence the more antecedently unlikely its existence is.
10. Therefore God’s existence is antecedently even more unlikely than the existence of life on Earth – the difficulties of abiogenesis notwithstanding.
11. An explanation which is antecedently even more unliklely than what it tries to explain is a bad explanation.
12. Hence invoking God (an omniscient Being) to explain life is a bad explanation.

A brief comment about the wisdom of choosing names

Before I go on, let me just say that the choice of names was a very clever one on Dave Mullenix’s part. Traditionally, Scholastic philosophers have maintained that God’s mind can store a vast number of concepts, in virtual form. How does God know what a dog is, what an E. coli bacterium is, and what an atom of gold is? The Scholastic reply has been that each of these entities must possess a kind of unity, or it wouldn’t be an individual. Therefore God, who knows all things in the most perfect manner possible, must have a unified concept of each of these kinds of entities. What’s more, God doesn’t even need to have separate and distinct concepts of each of these creatures. He only needs to have a concept of Himself as the possible cause of all these creatures, since He is able to create them all. Hence, simply by knowing Himself as a perfectly simple Being, God’s mind implicitly or virtually contains the concepts of all the various kinds of creatures which He is able to create.

Now, even if you buy that solution to the question of how God can have concepts of natural kinds, it certainly won’t work for names. Names don’t belong to any natural kind; they’re a human convention. And even if you were to maintain that God implicitly knows all names by knowing all possible combinations of letters or sounds, that wouldn’t explain how God knows your name – or how God knew Samuel’s name when He called him three times: “Samuel, Samuel.”

Argument A

OK. Let’s go back to argument A. What’s wrong with it? The problem, I believe, lies in premise 1: “Any entity that knows someone’s name has a representation of that name within his/her mind.”

At first blush premise 1 seems obvious: surely all knowledge has to be in the mind of the knower. However, I’d like to challenge this assumption. Why should this be so? A clue to why this seems so obvious is contained in Dave Mullenix’s words, “that information needs to be ‘on line.'” If we picture God as having a conversation with us in real time, then of course He will need to be able to access relevant information about us – including our names – from one moment to the next. In other words, He will need to keep it in His mind. And since a name, being inherently composite, cannot be compressed to a single bit, there can be no room for it in the simple mind of God.

But God is not in real time. God is beyond space and time. This is true regardless of whether one conceives of God as atemporal (totally outside time) as classical theists do, or as being omnitemporal (present at all points in time) subsequent to the creation of the universe, as Professor William Lane Craig does. On either analysis, God is not confined to a single location in time. In that case, God does not have to store information about our names in His mind for future retrieval; it’s always immediately there for Him.

“All right,” you may answer, “but if God is talking to me, and He calls me by my name, then the information about my name must still be in His mind, mustn’t it?” Not so. I would maintain that all God needs is to have access to your name; it doesn’t need to be “in” His mind. I would suggest that God knows facts about the world (including individuals’ names) simply by having access to the states of affairs which make them true (their truthmakers, in philosophical jargon). These facts don’t need to be “in God’s mind”; He just needs to be able to access them. The fact that grounds my having the name I do is that my parents gave it to me, shortly after I was born. God, who holds all things in being, was certainly present at this event: if He had not been present, my parents and I would not have been there, for “in Him we live and move and have our being” (Acts 17:28). If God has immediate epistemic access to the occasion when I acquired my name, then He automatically knows my name. It doesn’t need to be in His mind.

God, who holds all things, past, present and future, in existence, has immediate epistemic access to all events in the past, present and future. That’s how He is able to know my name.

Argument B

Now let’s have a look at argument B. Here, the critical premise is premise 2: “Any entity that knows a language has a representation of all the rules of that language within his/her mind.” Now, this is plausibly true for a computer that can speak a language. However, it is not true for human speakers, and it is certainly not true for God.

Consider the English language. It certainly contains a vast number of rules. However, most speakers of English don’t know these rules. Many people don’t know what a preposition is, for instance. And even if a well-educated child were aware of all the phonologic rules, morphologic rules and syntactic rules of a language, he/she could not possibly articulate all of the semantic rules and pragmatic rules. Yet virtually all children manage to learn their native tongue and speak it with ease.

It may be objected that we have an implicit knowledge of the rules of a language, even if most of us seldon need to make this knowledge explicit. Moreover, it could be argued, nothing is hidden or “implicit” to God. If He knows things in the most perfect manner possible, then He must have an explicit knowledge of each and every rule of a language.

But this objection assumes that the most perfect way to know a language is to know the rules, and then to apply those rules when making sentences. That’s roughly how I speak Japanese, for instance – but then, Japanese is not my native language. To know a language properly is to be in possession of a certain set of habits, which are properly acquired from being around the native speakers of that language for a certain length of time (usually a few years). Sentences produced as a result of this natural exposure have an authenticity that can never come from reading a grammar book.

“All right,” I hear you say, “but what about God? How does God pick up the habits of a language?” The answer, once again, is that God has epistemic access to all events – past, present and future. He was present at those points in history when each human language was in the process of being created; and He is present wherever mothers pass their native language on to their children. By having access to all these events, God can legitimately be said to possess all of the habits that an authentic native speaker of any human language possesses. Indeed, God has had more linguistic exposure than any one of us could possibly hope to experience. God has seen it all. That’s why God has no difficulty in producing perfect sentences in English, Hebrew or any other human language.

Notice that these habits do not have to be “in” the mind of God. They are “out there” in the course of history, as human languages are being created, and as they evolve over time. God, who has immediate epistemic access to all events in the past, present and future, has a perfect knowledge of these habits, without them being “in” His mind.

I will conclude by saying that in order to mount a successful argument against God, an atheist would have to show that the notion of a Being who has immediate epistemic access to all events in the past, present and future is an incoherent one. This has not been done to date, and there are even atheist philosophers who contend that the notion of such a Being is defensible. David Misialowski, a self-described “agnostic atheist,” is a case in point. His articles on God’s foreknowledge (see here, here and here) are highly entertaining and well worth reading, whatever your theological perspective.

I would like to congratulate Dave Mullenix for putting forward two highly ingenious arguments against the existence of God. They are much better and more interesting than the arguments recently put forward by the New Atheists.

Comments
Elizabeth: Another way of putting it is recasting the problem so that it is actually solvable and gives a sensible answer. What Dennett does isn't to "recast" the problem so that it can be solved. It's to dismiss it and substitute a different problem that he can solve in its place. And the god we should try to be, even if we fail, is the God that is Love. That’s the only God worthy of worship. Love is real enough, so is goodness. Why can’t we worship that? That's quite an odd amount of reverence you have for increased levels of serotonin and dopamine in the brain.Deuce
July 4, 2011
July
07
Jul
4
04
2011
06:18 PM
6
06
18
PM
PDT
vjtorley: I’m going to play devil’s advocate here and defend Dave. A very complex being wouldn’t be merely unlikely to come into existence; there is also a sense in which it is unlikely to exist, period. Why? Because it is contingent. Any composite being is contingent: it is fragile, and hence liable to break into parts. And a complex being would be all the more contingent – there are 101 things that could go wrong with it. Hence if God were complex, then His existence would be antecedently unlikely. Hence God has to be simple. So you're arguing that a complex God is unlikely to exist because even if he didn't come into existence by chance, he would've fallen apart by now?! I don't believe that any of this is true. Within our universe, with its entropy, complicated physical things are especially liable to break into parts, but I don't see why this should be assumed to be true outside the universe, and indeed outside time. Consider the proposition "5 + 6 = 11". It is a necessary, non-contingent, timeless truth - true before there were people, and true in any possible reality. And yet, it's "composite" and requires multiple bits to encode. But despite that, I don't think it's in danger of "falling apart" any time soon. Nevertheless,I'd also like to ditto what Ilion has said in his first couple of replies here regarding the supposed requirement for a complex God. Bits are what we use to measure the storage requirements of information when encoding it into a physical medium for later retrieval and interpretation by a mind. It's not at all clear to me that content currently being conceived in a conscious mind consists of bits. This, as Ilion says, appears to assume eliminative materialism right off the bat.Deuce
July 4, 2011
July
07
Jul
4
04
2011
06:09 PM
6
06
09
PM
PDT
Driver: Done the homework yet? (If you have, you will know that atheism cannot properly be a default. Worldviews all inextricably embed faith points -- of various types -- and are best decided on comparative difficulties. In the case of evolutionary materialism, the relevant worldview for so-called "scientific" atheism, is is incoherent, unable to address the credibility of mind or to ground ought in any is in the system. Those are more than warrant enough to walk away from it.) GEM of TKI PS: On the original arguments, I would observe that our material cosmos is fine tuned for C-chemistry, cell based life, per the evidence. Even through a multiverse speculation [cf the already linked], that points to root cause in a necessary being that is intelligent, purposeful and powerful enough to create a cosmos. A being that is NOT made of the matter we have but is minded. And so we have good reason to infer that mind can exist independent o matter, and that mind needs not be constrained by material and temporal challenges. So the atrtempt to infer that names pose some sort of complexification challenge is at best ill instructed and distractive. In addition, were God enormously complex, what of that? If he is a necessary being, that would just be the way the cookie crumbles, But in fact we simply do not know enough to demand that the mind of God be this way or that to suit our whims, or to want to calculate the bit storage of the mind of God. And as a matter of fact the bit calculations already are conflating brains with minds, which is a big begging of worldview level questions. We don't even know the limits of our minds, much less God's. the argument, in the end, is empty speculation, a spinning of our own mental chains out of our own substance..kairosfocus
July 4, 2011
July
07
Jul
4
04
2011
05:48 PM
5
05
48
PM
PDT
And to drive the point home further, again from Strawson: Dennett has suggested that ‘there is no such thing [as] . . . phenomenology’ and that any appearance of phenomenology is, somehow, wholly the product of some cognitive faculty, the ‘judgment module’ or ‘semantic intent module’ that does not itself involve any phenomenology. ‘There seems to be phenomenology,’ he concedes, ‘but it does not follow from this undeniable, universally attested fact that there really is phenomenology’ (Dennett, 1991b, pp. 365–6). It is unclear what Dennett means by ‘phenomenology’, but whatever he means this move fails immediately if it is taken as an objection to the present claim that we can be certain both that there is experience and that we can’t be radically in error about its nature. It fails for the simple reason that for there to seem to be rich phenomenology or experience just is for there to be such phenomenology or experience. To say that its apparently sensory aspects (say) are in some sense illusory because they are not the product of sensory mechanisms in the way we suppose, but are somehow generated by merely cognitive processes, is just to put forward a surprising hypothesis about part of the mechanism of this rich seeming that we call experience or consciousness. It is in no way to put in question its existence or reality. Whatever the process by which the seeming arises, the end result of the process is, as even Dennett agrees, at least this: that it seems as if one is having phenomenally rich experience of Beethoven’s eighth quartet or an Indian wedding; and if there is this seeming, then, once again, there just is phenomenology or experience (adapted from Strawson, 1994, pp. 51–2). In denying that experience can be physical, Dennett and his kind find themselves at one with many religious believers. This seems at first ironic, but the two camps are deeply united by the fact that both have unshakable faith in something that lacks any warrant in experience. That said, the religious believers are in infinitely better shape, epistemologically, than the Dennettians. Strawson's religious crack aside, he's got Dennett and company dead to rights.nullasalus
July 4, 2011
July
07
Jul
4
04
2011
05:39 PM
5
05
39
PM
PDT
They are all attempts at describing the same thing. I don’t have faith. I’m a monist – I don’t believe in mind-brain duality, or natural/supernatural duality – I don’t think they make sense. So in that sense I’m a strong atheist. But that doesn’t mean I don’t have something that the word “God” seems pretty appropriate for, as it does all the things “God” used to do, without requiring me to jump through what I came to regard as unnecessarily philosophical and logical hoops. Yes, you do have faith. And here we're back to the warm fuzzies again. Why don't you stop for a moment and ask yourself, "If I alternately describe myself as a theist, a pantheist, an atheist, lacking faith altogether, or having no beliefs but instead orientations, am I really attempting to describe something? Or is it that my thoughts on this matter are a jumbled mess, and possibly dictated more by what sounds good to me at any given time than a coherent underlying rationale?' Yes, I know that you think you've found something that 'does everything God used to do', aka, 'gives you the warm fuzzies and makes you happy'. The fact that you're putting so much pressure on finding a belief (oops, it's an orientation now) that 'does something for you' should throw up some warning signs to you. But then again, maybe warning signs don't give you the warm fuzzies. Well, that’s one way of putting it. Another way of putting it is recasting the problem so that it is actually solvable and gives a sensible answer. I love that your response to someone pointing out that Dennett operates by changing the definitions of words as he pleases him is to say 'that's one way of putting it' and then to try the same thing in defense of Dennett. But I'll play the game. Here's a third way of putting it: Dennett starts out with materialism as his non-negotiable premise, and then redefines all the terms in question such that they only can be things that are compatible with materialism - and surprise, Dennett finds if you do that, there really is no problem for materialism. Here's another way to reason: Look in your wallet. Count up how much money you have. Now, assume a framework where everything you want can only cost as much or less than what you have in your wallet. Surprise! You don't have money problems anymore! Except that he doesn’t. I don’t know why people always say that Dennett denies the existence of experience. He doesn’t. Sure he does. Just as, if I define Bigfoot as 'an illusion that people sometimes experience under certain conditions in this general forest area', I've denied the existence of Bigfoot. You can turn around and say "But you never explicitly denied Bigfoot exists! In fact, you defined what Bigfoot was, and what you defined Bigfoot to be, does exist!" To which I'll reply, "You're pretty slow, aren't you?" Likewise with Dennett. You seem to think that so long as Dennett doesn't explicitly say "I deny the existence of experience", then Dennett hasn't denied the existence of experience. That Denentt's arguments, that his positions and metaphysics, can themselves add up to a denial of the existence of experience is something you gloss over. I did myself for a long time, then, as I would put it, the penny dropped. What really stands out to me when you roll out this particular chestnut is this: You were, by your own estimation, certain of the truth of your metaphysical beliefs. Eventually you realized you were utterly mistaken for decades. Now you're certain of your new beliefs. The idea that maybe you're pretty shoddy with reasoning on these subjects and perhaps should content yourself with 'I don't know, this is what I think but I'm not certainly committed' doesn't seem to register. But I suppose that doesn't bring out the warm fuzzies. Finally, And the god we should try to be, even if we fail, is the God that is Love. That’s the only God worthy of worship. Love is real enough, so is goodness. Why can’t we worship that? Why lumber Love with the job of making the universe as well? Why can't we worship hate? Why can't we worship power? Why can't we worship whatever we wish, whether it be death or L. Ron Hubbard? "Love is real enough"? "Goodness is"? So is evil, apparently. So is hate, and so is power. And the universe is morally neutral for you - 'goodness' is just another word for 'what we like' or 'what gives us the warm fuzzies'. There are no 'oughts' in your universe other than the ones we come up with, and can change at any time. Time to let another penny drop, Elizabeth. "Worshipping love" is just a whim, a thing that makes you feel nice at this moment, in your metaphysics. That's the extent of it. It's only 'worthy of worship' insofar as you, personally, happen to like it, or what it makes you think of. And under materialism, what you happen to like is largely a product of contingent circumstances rather than reason. Time to let it go.nullasalus
July 4, 2011
July
07
Jul
4
04
2011
05:19 PM
5
05
19
PM
PDT
Mung, I did accurately represent the argument as presented on Ilion's blog. I was summarising the problem with the argument. When Ilion questioned my interpretation, I followed up with post #57, with the relevant quotation from Ilion's blog. As the post remains unanswered, I'll repost the substance of it here for convenience, should you wish to reply:
it is not the content of, and logical relationship between, two thoughts which prompts a reasoning entity to move from the one thought to the other, but rather it is some change-of-state of some matter which determines that an entity “thinks” any particular “thought” when it does
The implicit premise here is that material sources are not capable of reason. The error is thinking that since a “change of state some matter” (actually electrical activity) determines that any entity thinks a thought therefore it cannot also be the case that the logical relationship between two thoughts prompts a thought. Not only is this assumption not necessarily true, by analogy we can see that it is probably false. For, it is very like saying that because a computer is material it cannot perform logic operations.Driver
July 4, 2011
July
07
Jul
4
04
2011
05:09 PM
5
05
09
PM
PDT
Let's see if we can get to the nub of it. The essential claim in both cases seems to be that God's mind serves as an information store, whether to store names or to store the rules of a language. God, in order to know something, must store a representation of that thing in his mind. And then, I suppose, he calls it up or accesses it, if He wants to make use of it. Information is stored in bits. Some information requires more than one bit to store. God stores information in bits. Therefore God's mind must contain more than one bit. Therefore God is not simple. Or some such. Now I would deny in the first place that God HAS a mind, as a part of God where information is stored and retrieved. That itself would mean God was composed of parts and give away the argument then and there. Everything else is just fluff to conceal the basic underlying assumption.Mung
July 4, 2011
July
07
Jul
4
04
2011
05:05 PM
5
05
05
PM
PDT
junkdnaforlife,
you can’t use laws of physics to explain the existence of the laws of physics.
Indeed, the laws of physics explain natural regularities. The existence of those natural regularities could be explained by the anthropic principle (In those universes which are irregular in behaviour, we would not be around to observe the universe) or they could be a nomological fact or they could have been programmed by a creator. That is, there is nothing in the fact that there are laws of physics that tells us whether gods exist or not.
At some point, even the multi-verse must have a beginning.
Not at all. This is not a necessity. There are, for example, cyclic as well as eternal models of the origin of the universe.Driver
July 4, 2011
July
07
Jul
4
04
2011
05:00 PM
5
05
00
PM
PDT
Ilion: if we accept as a premise that God is not, then we arrive at the conclusion that we cannot know truth and we cannot reason. Driver: You simply start from the premise that reason cannot arise from material sources and then affirm that as your conclusion! The initial premise, is that God is not. If someone states his premise, and then in response someone says no, your premise actually is something else, that doesn't make a good basis for discussion. Rule 1: Accurately represent the actual argument that you are faced with.Mung
July 4, 2011
July
07
Jul
4
04
2011
04:52 PM
4
04
52
PM
PDT
Driver: "[Hawking] smeared out over a small region" This is Hawkings I believe, first attempt to mathematically blur the beginning. And this is why, as Hawking states: "Many people do not like the idea that time has a beginning, probably because it smacks of divine intervention...there were therefore a number of attempts to avoid the conclusion that time had a beginning." About Hawking's own no-boundary idea, he writes: "I'd like to emphasize that this idea that time and space should finite "without boundary" is just a proposal, it cannot be deduced from some other principle." [emphasis Hawking] This from brief history, in his newest works, he proposes the multi-verse, and that gravity, not God or any gods is all that is needed to explain the existence of the universe. That's fine. But again, you can't use laws of physics to explain the existence of the laws of physics. At some point, even the mult-verse must have a beginning. And thus the problem is just pushed farther back. Therefore the original premise still stands.junkdnaforlife
July 4, 2011
July
07
Jul
4
04
2011
04:49 PM
4
04
49
PM
PDT
CY,
I think what should be a priori is “I don’t know.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_atheism.Driver
July 4, 2011
July
07
Jul
4
04
2011
04:44 PM
4
04
44
PM
PDT
junkdnaforlife,
But we know that instead, it was the (place holder name) in which brought our laws of nature into existence.
No, the singularity describes the fact that at t=0 the universe itself has infinite curvature and infinite density according to General Relativity. It is not that the singularity brought the universe into existence. What I have been saying to you is that the singularity is not necessarily a thing that exists. It may well only exist in the equations of General Relativity, the problem being that General Relativity is not a sufficient theory to describe the early conditions of the universe. You see, all theories have a limited scope. Here's Steven Hawking: "The General Theory of Relativity, is what is called a classical theory. That is, it does not take into account the fact that particles do not have precisely defined positions and velocities, but are smeared out over a small region by the Uncertainty Principle of quantum mechanics. This does not matter in normal situations, because the radius of curvature of spacetime, is very large compared to the uncertainty in the position of a particle. However, the singularity theorems indicate that spacetime will be highly distorted, with a small radius of curvature, at the beginning of the present expansion phase of the universe. In this situation, the uncertainty principle will be very important. Thus, General Relativity brings about its own downfall, by predicting singularities. In order to discuss the beginning of the universe, we need a theory which combines General Relativity with quantum mechanics."Driver
July 4, 2011
July
07
Jul
4
04
2011
04:31 PM
4
04
31
PM
PDT
Lizzie, "Why should theism be a priori?" It doesn't have to be a priori. I think what should be a priori is "I don't know." That's where we should start. With that we can consider evidences without assumptions; which for us is perhaps dangerous territory, because somewhere down the line, we end up making certain assumptions. But it doesn't really help if we consider a certain a priori other than "I don't know" as a default positions.CannuckianYankee
July 4, 2011
July
07
Jul
4
04
2011
04:28 PM
4
04
28
PM
PDT
Driver: "There is nothing in GR that tells you that it is a supernatural entity at the beginning." Correct, not an entity. The beginning is definable as supernatural, meaning not of nature. Our universe would be of nature if our laws of nature brought it into existence. But we know that instead, it was the (place holder name) in which brought our laws of nature into existence. Our universe is definable as supernatural not in the "Thor did it" sense, but rather "an event attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature." This is the unavoidable conclusion of cosmic microwave background radiation. To get to the what or why, purpose etc, requires a different argument.junkdnaforlife
July 4, 2011
July
07
Jul
4
04
2011
04:16 PM
4
04
16
PM
PDT
nullasalus:
I’ve sometimes described myself as a monist theist. It seems to work OK.
You described yourself as a monist theist, a pantheist, a strong atheist, someone who has no beliefs about God but only orientations… really, you seem to call yourself whatever you like, whenever it’s convenient.
They are all attempts at describing the same thing. I don't have faith. I'm a monist - I don't believe in mind-brain duality, or natural/supernatural duality - I don't think they make sense. So in that sense I'm a strong atheist. But that doesn't mean I don't have something that the word "God" seems pretty appropriate for, as it does all the things "God" used to do, without requiring me to jump through what I came to regard as unnecessarily philosophical and logical hoops.
Daniel Dennett does not assert that minds and thoughts and consciousness are illusions. Or, if he does, I’d appreciate a citation.
In the case of Dennett, what he does is take a position that adds up to the denial of these things, but he conceals it by – you should be a fan of this – changing the definitions of the words in question to make his position seem prettier.
Well, that's one way of putting it. Another way of putting it is recasting the problem so that it is actually solvable and gives a sensible answer. Often intractable questions ("how many angels can stand on the head of a pin?"; "how can an arrow have movement if at any one time it is in a single place?") turn out to be only problematic because the problem itself is ill-posed. I think that is true of the consciousness question, and I think Dennett poses it properly.
From Galen Strawson’s Realistic Monism: “Some of them — Dennett is a prime example — are so in thrall to the fundamental intuition of dualism, the intuition that the experiential and the physical are utterly and irreconcilably different, that they are prepared to deny the existence of experience, more or less (c)overtly, because they are committed to physicalism, i.e. physicSalism.”
Except that he doesn't. I don't know why people always say that Dennett denies the existence of experience. He doesn't.
And his footnote explaining this: “Dennett conceals this move by looking-glassing the word ‘consciousness’ (his term for experience) and then insisting that he does believe that consciousness exists (to lookingglass a term is to use a term in such a way that whatever one means by it, it excludes what the term means — see Strawson, 2005). As far as I can understand them, Dretske, Tye, Lycan and Rey are among those who do the same. It seems that they still dream of giving a reductive analysis of the experiential in non-experiential terms. This, however, amounts to denying the existence of experience, because the nature of (real) experience can no more be specified in wholly non experiential terms than the nature of the (real) non-experiential can be specified in wholly experiential terms. In the normal case, of course, reductive identification of X with Y is not denial of the existence of X. The reductive claim is ‘X exists, but it is really just this (Y)’. In the case of experience, however, to say that it exists but is really just something whose nature can be fully specified in wholly non-experiential, functional terms is to deny its existence. ‘But what is this supposed thing you say we’re denying?’ say the deniers. It’s the thing to which the right reply to the question ‘What is it?’ is, as ever, the (Louis) Armstrong-Block reply: ‘If you gotta ask, you ain’t never gonna get to know’ (Block, 1978). It’s the thing whose deniers say that there is no non-question-begging account of it, to which the experiential realist’s correct reply is: ‘It’s question-begging for you to say that there must be an account of it that’s non-question-begging in your terms’. Such an exchange shows that we have reached the end of argument, a point further illustrated by the fact that reductive idealists can make exactly the same ‘You have no nonquestion-begging account’ objection to reductive physicalists that reductive physicalists make to realists about experience: ‘By taking it for granted that the physical is something that can (only) be specified in non-mental terms, you (reductive physicalists) simply beg the question against reductive idealists.’ It’s striking that the realist notion of the physical that present-day physicalists appeal to was thought to be either without warrant or unintelligible by many of the leading philosophers of the twentieth century. Many were reductive idealists about the physical, and Quine famously compared belief in physical objects to belief in the gods of Homer (Quine, 1951, p. 44)” I think ‘looking-glassing’ in particular is just such a useful concept here.
Well, I can understand that. But from my side of the looking glass it looks more like a barrier than a window :) I mean, I'm aware of those criticisms of Dennett, and of his rebuttals, and as I see it, the rebuttals rebut. But it comes down to this question of whether the question itself is properly posed. If you think it isn't (and I do think that, and I think Dennett does too), but the people you are arguing with think it is, then obviously both sides are going to think the other is missing the point, or even the elephant in the room. I did myself for a long time, then, as I would put it, the penny dropped. Anyway, off for a couple of days, nice to talk to you, see you later. Cheers LizzieElizabeth Liddle
July 4, 2011
July
07
Jul
4
04
2011
04:16 PM
4
04
16
PM
PDT
vjtorley - not much time, but a few brief (cursory, not meant to be curt) thoughts:
Elizabeth Liddle, I’ve decided to address your comments first. They get right to the heart of the matter. You write:
I’d say, if we release God from the requirement of simulating the outputs of actions ahead of time, and deciding on actions in the light of those simulations (which is how I would define “intention”) then in what sense can the God we’d be left with intend anything?
You also add:
One problem, it seems to me, with discussions of this kind, is that we are not all talking about the same God.
All right. By “God” I mean a Being whose nature it is to know and love perfectly. These two attributes I regard as fundamental and necessarily inter-twined: perfect knowledge and perfect love. It is these which ground God’s other attributes, including omnipotence, and which enable God to maintain the universe in being.
I wouldn't have any problem with the first two - it's trying to tie the first two to the third that I think land us with problems. And I just don't see why the third is necessary.
Your earlier question about God’s intentions goes to the heart of what we need a mind for. Here are some things that only a being with a mind can do: 1. Make rules – including the laws of nature. There would be no laws of nature if there were no God. 2. Follow rules – including moral rules. Keeping a promise, for instance, requires a mind. 3. Select the best option out of a range, the first time round. Fine tuning is a good illustration. 4. Make something that can perform a useful function – like ATP synthase. 5. Display an ongoing commitment to promoting someone’s good – i.e. love someone. Despite the evils we encounter in this world, for reasons we are often unable to grasp, most of us are at least dimly aware that God loves us, throughout it all. 6. Explain your actions – which is something crows don’t do regarding their impressive tool-making feats. God is perfectly capable of justifying himself, if He wishes to. 7. Express yourself in a language and hold a conversation with someone. God can certainly do that. There are at least seven tasks, then, that God can do, if and only if He has a mind.
I'd go with 3, 5, 6, and 7. I don't think you need a mind for the others (although something with a mind could do them).
Now I’d like to ask: which of these tasks necessarily requires forward simulations? I can’t see any logical reason why any of them do.
I'd say 3, 5, 6 and 7 do!
You ask: how can God be said to intend anything without the need to plan ahead of time? First, even if God is outside time, God still needs to choose an appropriate means to achieve His ends. Thus there is certainly a logical order of priority in God’s actions, even if there isn’t a temporal one. And what is to prevent God from planning His actions outside time? “Forward” doesn’t have to mean “temporally forward”; it can mean “logically forward”.
OK. But it still seems an unnecessary complication to me.
Second, intention isn’t always about selecting the right means to achieve a given end. Sometimes we do make a choice of ends. Leonardo da Vinci could have chosen to devote himself entirely to art, or entirely to science, or to becoming a polymath. God could have chosen to make a very different world from ours – or no world at all. The fact that God made a world in which human beings can exist – a world which, I might add, is still fundamentally good and beautiful, shows that God loves us, evil notwithstanding. But of course, there’s more to come – much more.
Again, there's a much simpler view: That what we call God didn't make the world at all, that the world itself is morally neutral. Even pain is morally neutral - useful, but unpleasant as it has to be, or it wouldn't be useful. Except for us. We are not morally neutral because we have minds that can plan and choose and love. "Ye are gods", didn't Jesus say? And the god we should try to be, even if we fail, is the God that is Love. That's the only God worthy of worship. Love is real enough, so is goodness. Why can't we worship that? Why lumber Love with the job of making the universe as well?
I imagine you’ll have something to say in response to this, but I won’t be able to respond for a few hours. Talk to you later, Elizabeth.
Sorry to be so brief, and thanks for both your post and your concern :) I appreciate it.
By the way, have you ever spoken to Dr. Edward Feser? He’d probably be able to straighten out your metaphysical and theological doubts better than I can. He’s an ex-atheist, I might add, and a very interesting guy.
No I haven't. I'd be dishonest if I claimed to have "theological doubts" - I actually don't. The God I found myself with, after half a century of a more conventional belief, has the delightful and unexpected property of not actually requiring faith! While still having all the good bits. Well, not the music. I do miss the music. And I'm still open to being wrong. Will ponder your post further while I'm away, and thank you very much for the links. Cheers LizzieElizabeth Liddle
July 4, 2011
July
07
Jul
4
04
2011
03:56 PM
3
03
56
PM
PDT
junkdnaforlife,
Thus the (place holder name) that brought our universe into existence is definable as supernatural.
This does not follow. The maths of General Relativity leads to infinities at the earliest times of the universe. Therefore General Relativity does not give us a meaningful picture of the earliest times. General Relativity also produces singularities inside black holes. This does not mean that the centre of a black hole is definable as supernatural. What it may actually mean is that General Relativity as a theory is limited. Another theory is needed to describe extreme conditions such as at the beginning of the universe. As it stands, the conditions at the earliest times of the universe are unknown. There is nothing in GR that tells you that it is a supernatural entity at the beginning. Incidentally, this is the universe itself we are talking about. The idea that the universe is supernatural is pantheism.Driver
July 4, 2011
July
07
Jul
4
04
2011
03:50 PM
3
03
50
PM
PDT
I’ve sometimes described myself as a monist theist. It seems to work OK. You described yourself as a monist theist, a pantheist, a strong atheist, someone who has no beliefs about God but only orientations... really, you seem to call yourself whatever you like, whenever it's convenient. Daniel Dennett does not assert that minds and thoughts and consciousness are illusions. Or, if he does, I’d appreciate a citation. In the case of Dennett, what he does is take a position that adds up to the denial of these things, but he conceals it by - you should be a fan of this - changing the definitions of the words in question to make his position seem prettier. From Galen Strawson's Realistic Monism: "Some of them — Dennett is a prime example — are so in thrall to the fundamental intuition of dualism, the intuition that the experiential and the physical are utterly and irreconcilably different, that they are prepared to deny the existence of experience, more or less (c)overtly, because they are committed to physicalism, i.e. physicSalism." And his footnote explaining this: "Dennett conceals this move by looking-glassing the word ‘consciousness’ (his term for experience) and then insisting that he does believe that consciousness exists (to lookingglass a term is to use a term in such a way that whatever one means by it, it excludes what the term means — see Strawson, 2005). As far as I can understand them, Dretske, Tye, Lycan and Rey are among those who do the same. It seems that they still dream of giving a reductive analysis of the experiential in non-experiential terms. This, however, amounts to denying the existence of experience, because the nature of (real) experience can no more be specified in wholly non experiential terms than the nature of the (real) non-experiential can be specified in wholly experiential terms. In the normal case, of course, reductive identification of X with Y is not denial of the existence of X. The reductive claim is ‘X exists, but it is really just this (Y)’. In the case of experience, however, to say that it exists but is really just something whose nature can be fully specified in wholly non-experiential, functional terms is to deny its existence. ‘But what is this supposed thing you say we’re denying?’ say the deniers. It’s the thing to which the right reply to the question ‘What is it?’ is, as ever, the (Louis) Armstrong-Block reply: ‘If you gotta ask, you ain’t never gonna get to know’ (Block, 1978). It’s the thing whose deniers say that there is no non-question-begging account of it, to which the experiential realist’s correct reply is: ‘It’s question-begging for you to say that there must be an account of it that’s non-question-begging in your terms’. Such an exchange shows that we have reached the end of argument, a point further illustrated by the fact that reductive idealists can make exactly the same ‘You have no nonquestion-begging account’ objection to reductive physicalists that reductive physicalists make to realists about experience: ‘By taking it for granted that the physical is something that can (only) be specified in non-mental terms, you (reductive physicalists) simply beg the question against reductive idealists.’ It’s striking that the realist notion of the physical that present-day physicalists appeal to was thought to be either without warrant or unintelligible by many of the leading philosophers of the twentieth century. Many were reductive idealists about the physical, and Quine famously compared belief in physical objects to belief in the gods of Homer (Quine, 1951, p. 44)" I think 'looking-glassing' in particular is just such a useful concept here.nullasalus
July 4, 2011
July
07
Jul
4
04
2011
03:33 PM
3
03
33
PM
PDT
Driver: There was not necessarily a physical “singularity”. Yes. The singularity is just a place holder name. As you said, a place where the math goes to infinities. Nature is not thought of as having infinite properties. Therefore, the (place holder name) is not of nature. A supernatural event is attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature. Thus the (place holder name) that brought our universe into existence is definable as supernatural. Therefore, by definition our universe came into existence by supernatural means. Thus refuting the materialist worldview. The question of God, gods, whether there is a purpose etc, is another topic. You have to drop the materialist first premise before you can really entertain those topics with objectivity.junkdnaforlife
July 4, 2011
July
07
Jul
4
04
2011
03:27 PM
3
03
27
PM
PDT
Ilion at 86: OK, thanks for that.Elizabeth Liddle
July 4, 2011
July
07
Jul
4
04
2011
03:23 PM
3
03
23
PM
PDT
Driver you state; 'I meant that it was impossible for a being to exist outside of space and time.' But alas once again Driver, you apparently believe that absolute, unchanging, transcendent truths exists outside of space and time, thus why do you 'beg the question' by inserting your 'desired conclusion' into your premise, by stating it is impossible for infinite God to exist outside of space and time. Or do you want to remain consistent as a atheistic materialist and now deny that absolute, unchanging, transcendent truth, exists???bornagain77
July 4, 2011
July
07
Jul
4
04
2011
03:23 PM
3
03
23
PM
PDT
"Is God a proper name?" Of course not, no more than 'elohim' is.Ilion
July 4, 2011
July
07
Jul
4
04
2011
03:19 PM
3
03
19
PM
PDT
Ilion (or anyone else) Please explain what is intellectually dishonest about my post #53. I back up the point, demonstrating that I had read your article, in post #57. If you believe I am mistaken, then simply engage with post #57.Driver
July 4, 2011
July
07
Jul
4
04
2011
03:15 PM
3
03
15
PM
PDT
junkdnaforlife, Thank you for your thought provoking point. I meant that it was impossible for a being to exist outside of space and time. If you read my line again, that should be clear from the grammar I used ("It is impossible to exist..."). A note on the singularity: most physicists subscribe to the view that the singularity thrown up by the equations means that General Relativity is not sufficient physics to describe the universe at the earliest times. That is, it is the maths that goes off into infinities, not reality. There was not necessarily a physical "singularity". The hypothetical models that cosmologists have come up with to try to explain the origin of the universe all presume the existence of space and time, not least because of the difficulty of envisaging physics without them.Driver
July 4, 2011
July
07
Jul
4
04
2011
03:10 PM
3
03
10
PM
PDT
Ilion: I'll have a go at responding to this, as you have done me the courtesy of responding to my post.
EL: “In other words, there isn’t really an objective way of deciding whether mind-brain duality is true or not. So we are reduced to Occam’s Razor – or faith. Brains seem to explain minds.” This is not actually true (and was shown false centuries ago). However, your faith-testimony is surely touching … at least, to other materialists/atheists.
You've referred to this several times - can you be specific? What was shown by whom several centuries ago?
There is a reason that people like Paul and Patricia Churchland and Daniel Dennett assert that minds and thoughts and consciousness are illusions
Daniel Dennett does not assert that minds and thoughts and consciousness are illusions. Or, if he does, I'd appreciate a citation. Possibly the Churchlands do, I'm not so familiar with their work. If they do, then it seems to be a silly position to me because it would be, as you say, its own self-refutation.
(never mind, for now, that this assertion is its own refutation) — they *understand* what logically follows from materialism and God-denial, and they are simply asserting the inescapable conclusion of their premise, neverminding that the conclusion is patently absurd.
Well, as I said, Daniel Dennett, to my knowledge, does not assert any such conclusion, and, IMO, that conclusion is not inescapable at all, for reasons I gave above, namely that the properties of a whole are often different from the properties of its parts. I think it's idiotic and circular to call consciousness an "illusion". How can something that doesn't exist experience an illusion?
You, on the other hand, imagine that you can side-step the conclusion by simply denying that it follows inescapably.
No, I'm not sidestepping it, but I certainly deny that it follows inescapably. I think the reasoning that leads to that conclusion is faulty. However, I think it's faulty in a very fundamental way - I think the problem lies in the formulation of the problem itself, which is usually something like "how can material causes produce consciousness?" I think the problem lies in regarding consciousness as a phenomenon rather than as a process. We tend to think of consciousness as a continuous stream of something (I think that is, indeed, an illusion, and demonstrably so), and as as a stream it is, indeed, very difficult to account for in material terms. However, if we let go the idea that consciousness is a stream of something - indeed, that it is a something at all, and instead regard it as a process by which we "become conscious OF something" then the problem suddenly becomes tractable. Note that I am not saying that consciousness is an illusion, but that the experience of continuous flow is, just as (my favorite metaphor) we could, if we didn't know better, regard the fridge light as being on continuously. It is, effectively, because whenever we need it, it is on. I think it's a good metaphor, because there is lots of evidence that that is just how consciousness works - because we are capable of being conscious of anything we need to be conscious of, without (mostly) having to search for the light switch, as it were, we can serially process the world while maintain the illusion that we are processing it in parallel. We summon the world, as it were, "on the fly" as and when we need various bits of it, but because all bits are available to us at all times, we are never aware missing the bits that we do not actually need at the present moment. That's a bit off-topic though. I'm happy to expand elsewhere sometime.
=== IF “brains explain minds” THEN brains also explain thoughts and propositions and reasoning (*) about the same. In other terms, to assert that “brains explain minds” is to assert that physical brain states explain and cause thoughts and propositions and reasoning about thoughts and propositions.
Yes. Although I would put it differently: brains make forward models of reality, and test those models against reality.
IF “brains explain minds” THEN changes in physical brain states — and never the content/meaning of the thoughts and propositions — explain and cause one’s mental movement from ‘Thought A’ to ‘Thought B.’ That is, one does not, and cannot, “conclude” ‘Thought B’ by virtue of an understanding of the content/meaning of ‘Thought A;’ but rather, one has only imagined (another word that cannot fit into this materialistic world-view) that one has concluded ‘Thought B.’ For, as a physical brain state caused one to “think” ‘Thought A’ so too a different physical brain state caused one to “think” ‘Thought B’ — but, one might as readily have been caused to “think” ‘Thought C.’
Well, no. In any case, I don't think that "brain states cause one to think" exactly. I think the experience of thinking arises from brain processes, which is not quite the same thing. There's a sense in which, if we consider brain activity as a Markov process, that any given brain state is determined by the previous brain state plus any additional input, but that doesn't mean that the only cause of the subsequent brain state is the previous brain state plus new input. Those may be the proximal causes, but the distal causes run way way back. The reason "Thought A" leads to "Thought B" is not arbitrary. Thought A triggers Thought B for perfectly good reasons (Thought A might have been - "I wonder what time it is, and thought B might have been "yikes, I'm supposed to be somewhere else") and those thoughts follow each other because they have been connected by the passage, if you will, of previous thoughts (Hebb's Rule: What fires together, wires together). You are not the helpless passenger of your brain - you are what your brain does, and the thinking your brain produces are your thoughts, and they are yours because your brain is just as much a product of your thoughts and actions as your thoughts and actions are a product of your brain. The two things are not separate, but two aspects of the same thing - mind is what the brain does, and one of the things your brain "does" is "be you"! We even know which networks are involved in that process.
Materialism/atheism *denies* that thought, and reasoning, are even possible (**).
Well, no, it doesn't.
(*) In truth, one needs to put scare-quotes around the words ‘thoughts’ and ‘propositions’ and ‘reasoning,’ for the assertion that “brains explain minds” denies that these things even exist.
No, it doesn't.
(**) Mind you, EL, I am confident that you will not admit this truth; nor do I particularly care that you do not — I have no great objection to laughing at and mocking your self-chosen foolishness.
Well, you can laugh all you like, but it remains my view that the conclusion that you think is inescapable from the proposition that brains explain minds is not, in fact, inescapable, but only seems so if you make what I consider the unwarranted assumption that the properties of a whole reduce to the property of its parts. And, perhaps oddly, because I don't make this assumption (which seems to me self-evidently false, if we look around us), it means that I have room, in my material world for all kinds of non-material things, including love, and justice, and even God. I've sometimes described myself as a monist theist. It seems to work OK.Elizabeth Liddle
July 4, 2011
July
07
Jul
4
04
2011
03:08 PM
3
03
08
PM
PDT
... to be more precise, his behavior tips the scale from the *presumption* of being honestly mistaken to the knowledge that he is intellectually dishonest.Ilion
July 4, 2011
July
07
Jul
4
04
2011
03:05 PM
3
03
05
PM
PDT
Deuce, Ilion and Mung, This post is for you. Deuce, you perceptively spotted an extra flaw in Dave's argument (I was going to address it too, but owing to time constraints - see #85 above - I chose to focus my attack on the most critical weak point). You focused on the premise:
And if it’s very complex, then its own existence is inherently even more unlikely than that of the living creatures whose existence it is supposed to explain.
You comment:
The problem is, when we say that complex things are “unlikely” or “improbable”, what we actually mean by that is that it’s unlikely for an object possessing the complex pattern in question to have come into existence by chance. So what these arguments actually show (assuming we accept the argument that God must be complex), is that it’s very unlikely for God to come into existence by chance. I trust I don’t need to expound on why such a conclusion isn’t exactly earth-shattering.
I'm going to play devil's advocate here and defend Dave. A very complex being wouldn't be merely unlikely to come into existence; there is also a sense in which it is unlikely to exist, period. Why? Because it is contingent. Any composite being is contingent: it is fragile, and hence liable to break into parts. And a complex being would be all the more contingent - there are 101 things that could go wrong with it. Hence if God were complex, then His existence would be antecedently unlikely. Hence God has to be simple. Well, it's 7:05. Better stop now. Back in a few hours, everyone.vjtorley
July 4, 2011
July
07
Jul
4
04
2011
03:05 PM
3
03
05
PM
PDT
To the general reader: I do not explicitly put a name to someone's intellectual dishonesty *simply* because he disagrees with me; the accusation follows after certain types of behavior. For that matter, I don't even decide in my own mind that a person is intellectually dishonest absent behavior demonstrating it. Look back over this thread and examine the behavior of 'Driver' toward the "theists" and the theistic arguments they have presented. Look at has first post directed at me (#53), before I had said anything at all to or about him. It is his behavior which tips the scale from "honestly mistaken" to "intellectually dishonest."Ilion
July 4, 2011
July
07
Jul
4
04
2011
03:03 PM
3
03
03
PM
PDT
Mung, Thanks for your comments on the two arguments. I didn't list all the criticisms that could be made of Dave Mullenix's argument yesterday, for the simple reason that I ran out of time. You may have noticed that I often put my posts up at about 7:05 a.m. Japan time - which gives me just enough time to race downstairs, shave, have a shower, wolf down breakfast, and run like the wind for about 1.5 kilometers, to catch the 7:40 train. I'm pretty used to running straight after breakfast now - I've had years of practice. Let's get back to Dave's Argument A. Premise 2. Proper names (e.g. Sam or Meg) have a minimal representation in excess of one bit. You write:
So no proper name can consist of a single symbol? What is a bit? What is the proper name of a bit? Is a bit a representation? How many bits does it take to represent one bit?
I thought about this objection too. You could have a one-bit name - but you couldn't have one for each and every person on the planet. Most of us will be stuck with names of two or more bits. A bit is just the smallest possible piece of information. A bit is a representation. It doesn't have a representation. It doesn't have a proper name either, as far as I can tell. Let's continue with the argument. Premise 4. Therefore if God exists, God's mind contains representations whose length exceeds one bit. You write:
How does one measure the length of a representation? Is God a proper name? Does God know his own name(s)?
I'm not sure whether all representations can or should be measured in bits. That's an interesting question. Artistic representations don't seem to be "bitty" (the Mona Lisa, for instance) - although one could make them so, if one wished. However, names, I would say, require bits to represent them, regardless of which representational medium one chooses. There's no simple way to represent each and every person's name. Is God a proper name? Personally, I don't think so. I think it simply means a Being having a Divine nature - roughly, a necessary, omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent Being. Let's continue. Premise 5. A representation in excess of one bit is composed of multiple (two or more) parts. You ask:
What is a representation? Do representations have parts? Are representations composed of bits? ... A proper name tells us which thing is in question. Is God not sure which name applies to who? Is "Meg" or "Sam" a proper name? There are many Megs and many Sams. I say that neither Meg nor Sam is a proper name.
Concerning representations, see my comments above. Dave's argument does not require all representations to contain bits; his argument only pertains to names. And no matter what medium we use - e.g. a sound file, a pictogram, or whatever - we'll need to decompose it into bits in order to convert it into a name. Of course we could cheat and use a table - e.g. this tune stands for this name - but then we'd need bits to store the mappings in the table. Names don't have to be unique. They simply have to be suitably specific in ordinary contexts. We have a couple of Stephens on UD, but they usually distinguish themselves by adding an extra letter - Stephen A and Stephen B. God is, of course, perfectly sure of everything. As I wrote above:
If God has immediate epistemic access to the occasion when I acquired my name, then He automatically knows my name. It doesn't need to be in His mind. God, who holds all things, past, present and future, in existence, has immediate epistemic access to all events in the past, present and future. That's how He is able to know my name.
Now let's have a look at Argument B. Premise 2. Any entity that knows a language has a representation of all the rules of that language within his/her mind. Your comment:
I’d deny that premise. But what does it mean to know a language? Can I know English without a representation of all the rules of English within my mind? Any omniscient entity that knows a language has a representation of all the rules of that language within his/her mind.
I agree, Mung. I'm sure I don't know all the rules of English - there are surely some pragmatic rules that I've just never thought about. A typical speaker of a language knows the rules only by virtue of possessing the habits that speakers of that language have. However, he/she may not have drawn all the inferences that could be drawn from those habits. Often we know that something "sounds right" without knowing why. Some of us, of course, are fortunate enough to receive explicit instruction in grammar. God, of course, cannot fail to draw implications, being omniscient, and must therefore know all the rules of any language, insofar as they have been clearly defined. There are of course many "gray areas", such as the use of "they" for "he/she", and so on.vjtorley
July 4, 2011
July
07
Jul
4
04
2011
02:51 PM
2
02
51
PM
PDT
EL: "But what of those who simply, and honestly, disagree with you? " But, of course! Simple, honest disagreement falls under option #2 (as listed in post # 70) "lack of understanding" or “lack of prerequisite knowledge.” EL: "Do you consider the possibility that perhaps they may know something that you don’t, or that they may have spotted a flaw in an argument that you have missed?" But, of course! Then *my* error would fall under option #2. But simply asserting a flaw in my argument does not establish a flaw in my argument – all it establishes is the refusal of the asserter to follow the logic and find and acknowledge the truth of the matter.Ilion
July 4, 2011
July
07
Jul
4
04
2011
02:51 PM
2
02
51
PM
PDT
1 2 3 4 5 6

Leave a Reply