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UB Sets It Out Step-By-Step

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UD Editors:  No one has come close to refuting UB’s thesis after 129 comments.  We are moving this post to the top of the page to give the materialists another chance.

I take the following from an excellent comment UB made in a prior post.  UB lays out his argument step by step, precept by precept.  Then he arrives at a conclusion.  In order for his argument to be valid, the conclusion must follow from the premises.  In order for his argument to be sound, each of the premises must be true.

Now here is the challenge to our Darwinist friends.  If you disagree with UB’s conclusion, please demonstrate how his argument is either invalid (as a matter of logic the conclusion does not follow from the premises) or unsound (one or more of the premises are false).  Good luck (you’re going to need it).

Without further ado, here is UB’s argument:

1.  A representation is an arrangement of matter which evokes an effect within a system (e.g. written text, spoken words, pheromones, animal gestures, codes, sensory input, intracellular messengers, nucleotide sequences, etc, etc).

2.  It is not logically possible to transfer information (the form of a thing; a measured aspect, quality, or preference) in a material universe without using a representation instantiated in matter.

3.  If that is true, and it surely must be, then several other things must logically follow. If there is now an arrangement of matter which contains a representation of form as a consequence of its own material arrangement, then that arrangement must be necessarily arbitrary to the thing it represents. In other words, if one thing is to represent another thing within a system, then it must be separate from the thing it represents. And if it is separate from it, then it cannot be anything but materially arbitrary to it (i.e. they cannot be the same thing).

4.  If that is true, then the presence of that representation must present a material component to the system (which is reducible to physical law), while its arrangement presents an arbitrary component to the system (which is not reducible to physical law).

5.  If that is true, and again it surely must be, then there has to be something else which establishes the otherwise non-existent relationship between the representation and the effect it evokes within the system. In fact, this is the material basis of Francis Crick’s famous ‘adapter hypothesis’ in DNA, which lead to a revolution in the biological sciences. In a material universe, that something else must be a second arrangement of matter; coordinated to the first arrangement as well as to the effect it evokes.

6.  It then also follows that this second arrangement must produce its unambiguous function, not from the mere presence of the representation, but from its arrangement.  It is the arbitrary component of the representation which produces the function.

7.  And if those observations are true, then in order to actually transfer recorded information, two discrete arrangements of matter are inherently required by the process; and both of these objects must necessarily have a quality that extends beyond their mere material make-up. The first is a representation and the second is a protocol (a systematic, operational rule instantiated in matter) and together they function as a formal system. They are the irreducible complex core which is fundamentally required in order to transfer recorded information.

8.  During protein synthesis, a selected portion of DNA is first transcribed into mRNA, then matured and transported to the site of translation within the ribosome. This transcription process facilitates the input of information (the arbitrary component of the DNA sequence) into the system. The input of this arbitrary component functions to constrain the output, producing the polypeptides which demonstrate unambiguous function.

9.  From a causal standpoint, the arbitrary component of DNA is transcribed to mRNA, and those mRNA are then used to order tRNA molecules within the ribosome. Each stage of this transcription process is determined by the physical forces of pair bonding. Yet, which amino acid appears at the peptide binding site is not determined by pair bonding; it is determined  by the aaRS. In other words, which amino acid appears at the binding site is only evoked by the physical structure of the nucleic triplet, but is not determined by it. Instead, it is determined (in spatial and temporal isolation) by the physical structure of the aaRS. This is the point of translation; the point where the arbitrary component of the representation is allowed to evoke a response in a physically determined system – while preserving the arbitrary nature of the representation.

10.  This physical event, translation by a material protocol, as well as the transcription of a material representation, is ubiquitous in the transfer of recorded information.

CONCLUSION:  These two physical objects (the representation and protocol) along with the required preservation of the arbitrary component of the representation, and the production of unambiguous function from that arbitrary component, confirm that the transfer of recorded information in the genome is just like any other form of recorded information. It’s an arbitrary relationship instantiated in matter.

Comments
Upright BiPed, Should you choose the path of intellectual integrity rather than continued evasion, I am still very interested in understanding your argument. The currently open issues are: Given this definition of "information": D2. Information: a) the form of a thing b) a measured aspect c) a measured quality d) a measured preference - How exactly can information be measured? - Does information, by your definition, have standard units? - Does your definition correspond to any standard definitions? What is your precise definition of "arbitrary"? Given this statement of one of your premises from your paragraph 3: P2'. If there is an arrangement of matter that constitutes information, that arrangement is necessarily arbitrary to the thing to which the information refers. - What does "necessarily arbitrary" mean? - Please restate this premise using different wording to make your point more clear. Note that all of these questions and issues can be addressed with direct statements, not questions, clarifying your meaning.onlooker
September 8, 2012
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Upright BiPed and Mung, I strongly recommend Ray Dalio's principles as an explanation of the importance of brutal honesty and direct communication in order to root out flaws in our own opinions.onlooker
September 8, 2012
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Upright BiPed, Your 282 is completely non-responsive to the questions I raised about the definitions and logic of your argument. This is an unfortunate pattern in your communication. When Lizzie was posting here trying to get operational definitions for your terms, you blocked her every time it seemed like she was getting close enough to actually test your claims. At The Skeptical Zone you wrote copiously for months, until the other participants managed to work through your nearly impenetrable prose and ask pertinent, direct questions, at which point you ran away. Now here you are evading answering simple, equally direct questions. As keiths noted at TSZ:
When I have a good idea, I actually want other people to understand it. When they ask questions, I answer them. If I see that they misunderstand me, I clarify things. Why wouldn’t I? Why would I try to hide my good idea? You, on the other hand, seem ashamed of your argument and afraid of what might happen if you stated it clearly and explicitly. Instead of clarifying, you obfuscate. Instead of answering questions straightforwardly, you evade them. You complain that others are misrepresenting your position, but when they ask you for correction, you refuse to give it.
You are clearly not acting like someone who has the courage of his convictions and confidence in his argument. In fact, your behavior is indistinguishable from someone who wishes to obfuscate in order to hide the flaws in his argument and avoid any potential challenge to his beliefs. I can't conclude any better than to quote keiths' final paragraph. I'd like to hear your answers to his questions as well as mine.
For you, the entire exercise seems to be more about saving face than it is about communicating your ideas. In fact, you appear to be deliberately avoiding communication precisely in order to save face. Why should anyone take your argument seriously if you are so ashamed of it? Why are you afraid to communicate it in a way that your audience will actually understand?
onlooker
September 8, 2012
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onlooker, 1. What do you think information is? 2. What do you think a representation is? 3. Do you think it is possible to encode information? 4. Do you think it is possible to transmit information from a sender to receiver via a communications channel? Put another way, is it possible to communicate information, and if so, how can that be accomplished? 5. Attempt to relate the activities you are engaged in and the processes that must take place when you post here on UD to the above questions. I'm willing to grant that you may be a serious enquirer. Let's find out.Mung
September 8, 2012
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And one more, for laughs:
How did ID pass the test of knowing what was required for future functionality?
How did ID pass the strawman test? But anyway, as Dr Spetner said back in 1997- "built-in responses to environmental cues".
If as Joe says ID is not anti-evolution, how does the designer stop evolution from changing a working design into something that will not meet his design requirements 1000 years from now?
And another strawman- and a designer could just set limitations on what evolutionary processes could do- and guess what? That is what we actually observe.Joe
September 8, 2012
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What?
What I was shooting for is that ID and evolution are not peer “theories” and you have granted that is the case by not treating them as peers.
ID is not anti-evolution. Why do you equivocate?
If schools should teach the “controversy”, clearly it is NOT a choice between ID and “Darwinism”.
Darwinism is untestable nonsense and ID has withstood all tests. No choice...Joe
September 8, 2012
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I would like to clear up one bit of a confused poster- confused on how science does things:
If ID claims “evolution CANNOT therefore ID”, why can’t the evolution argument be, “ID CANNOT therefore NOT ID”?
1- ID does NOT claim “evolution CANNOT therefore ID” 2- It cannot be “ID CANNOT therefore NOT ID” because design doesn't even get considered until necessity and chance, NOT ID, have already tried and failed. THAT is the whole point of parsimony, Toronto. And your other strawmen prove that you are totally clueless wrt science. Is that what you were shooting for? Really?Joe
September 8, 2012
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onlooker:
How exactly can information be measured?
By counting the number of bits it contains. But that is irrelevant
Does it have standard units?
Yes, the bit, but again irrelevant
Does your definition correspond to any standard definitions?
Just the one used by everybody on the planet every day of their lives. The one you use in order to communicate will suffice. Ya see onlooker it was questions such as those that exposed your agenda. Just sayin'...Joe
September 8, 2012
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I’m pointing out that your first premise is a contradiction.
You need to do a better job than just saying so.
In other words, it’s not necessary for genetic to be reeducate to law for us to explain the concrete biological complexity we observe.
Where did I say it had to be?
Are you suggesting the appearance of design cannot be explained?
Where did I suggest that?
What is the appearance of design?
Something that appears designed.Joe
September 8, 2012
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UB: Maybe this from 251 will help, in light of actual on the ground comms stuff:
1. A representation is an arrangement of matter which evokes an effect within a system (e.g. written text, spoken words, pheromones, animal gestures, codes, sensory input, intracellular messengers, nucleotide sequences, etc, etc). [--> I would add, digital symbols and analogue modulation of wave forms through AM, FM, Phase Mod and pulse mod] 2. It is not logically possible to transfer information (the form of a thing; a measured aspect, quality, or preference) in a material universe without using a representation instantiated in matter. [--> Comms systems are about the imposition of modulations to represent information; which also happens to be true in the world of life. To go from transmitrer to receiver the codes, mod systems, protocols etc have to be given physical instantiation, E.G AM IS BASED ON MATHEMATICS OF MULTIPLYING SINUSOIDS AND CREATION OF SIDE BANDS AS A RESULT, BUT IS EFFECTED USING ELECTRONICS TECHNIQUES IN CIRCUITS. (And I will let the accidental caps lock stand . . . ] 3. If that is true, and it surely must be, then several other things must logically follow. If there is now an arrangement of matter which contains a representation of form as a consequence of its own material arrangement, then that arrangement must be necessarily arbitrary to the thing it represents. In other words, if one thing is to represent another thing within a system, then it must be separate from the thing it represents. [--> Without the contingency to make one thing stand for something else by analogue or code, we cannot communicate] And if it is separate from it, then it cannot be anything but materially arbitrary to it (i.e. they cannot be the same thing). 4. If that is true, then the presence of that representation must present a material component to the system (which is reducible to physical law), while its arrangement presents an arbitrary component to the system (which is not reducible to physical law). 5. If that is true, and again it surely must be, then there has to be something else which establishes the otherwise non-existent relationship between the representation and the effect it evokes within the system. [--> We design comms systems, and the protocols or conventions involved are not driven by deterministic physical forces or by chance but by intelligent choice] In fact, this is the material basis of Francis Crick’s famous ‘adapter hypothesis’ in DNA, which lead to a revolution in the biological sciences. In a material universe, that something else must be a second arrangement of matter; coordinated to the first arrangement as well as to the effect it evokes. [--> For a receiver to work, there must be a transmitter] 6. It then also follows that this second arrangement must produce its unambiguous function, not from the mere presence of the representation, but from its arrangement. It is the arbitrary component of the representation which produces the function. [--> Transmitters and receivers are planned together to match under protocols] 7. And if those observations are true, then in order to actually transfer recorded information, two discrete arrangements of matter are inherently required by the process [ --> TX and RX] ; and both of these objects must necessarily have a quality that extends beyond their mere material make-up. [--> The impressed design] The first is a representation and the second is a protocol (a systematic, operational rule instantiated in matter) and together they function as a formal system. [--> Yes] They are the irreducible complex core which is fundamentally required in order to transfer recorded information. Next time you use a PC on the web using TCP/IP (= “Transmission Control Protocol (TCP) and Internet Protocol (IP)”), think about it. Same for the Global System for Mobile Telephony (GSM) etc.
KFkairosfocus
September 8, 2012
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From 262
Onlooker: “It is not logically possible to transfer information without using an arrangement of matter which evokes an effect within a system.” UB: I now see you left the term “information” in your text after all, so I can only assume you knew what you meant when you wrote it. But if that is the wrong assumption, then you can tell me what you meant, and how you conceptualized it could be transferred by using an arrangement of matter which evokes an effect within a system. ... Armed with the proper conceptualization as you have demonstrated, the question before you remains. I assure you, answering this question will help you understand “necessarily arbitrary”.
So can the effect which will not even happen until tomorrow also be the arrangement of matter in your pocket today, even though that effect tomorrow will contain nothing that is in your pocket today? Or are these two things necessarily not the same thing?Upright BiPed
September 8, 2012
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Mung,
ok, I think I am beginning to understand the problem here. Upright BiPed needs to set it out step-by-step-by-step-by-step-by-step-by-step-by-step-by-step-by-step-by-step-by-step-by-step-by-step-by-step-by-step-by-step-by-step-by-step-by-step-by-step-by-step-by-step-by-step-by-step-by-step-by-step-by-step-by-step-by-step-by-step-by-step-by-step-by-step-by-step ….
Absolutely. I refer you to what I quoted from keiths in comment 238:
When I have a good idea, I actually want other people to understand it. When they ask questions, I answer them. If I see that they misunderstand me, I clarify things. Why wouldn’t I? Why would I try to hide my good idea?
I am interested in understanding Upright BiPed's argument detailed in the original post to this thread. I have questions that prevent me from understanding it. Why do you think it is unreasonable to ask for clarification? If you feel that the argument as stated is perfectly clear, I invite you to answer the questions I have posed to Upright BiPed. If you can add some clarity and Upright BiPed agrees with your clarifications, we might be able to make progress more quickly.onlooker
September 8, 2012
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Upright BiPed,
Ah yes, I remember now. You were confused by words like “information” and “representations”
Please re-read what I wrote. I specifically asked you to clarify what you meant by "information" because I found your definition lacking in clarity. That definition again, for your convenience, is: D2. Information: a) the form of a thing b) a measured aspect c) a measured quality d) a measured preference My outstanding questions are: - How exactly can information be measured? - Does information, by your definition, have standard units? - Does your definition correspond to any standard definitions? I removed "representation" from P1'''. It is not logically possible to transfer information without using an arrangement of matter which evokes an effect within a system. because it is an unnecessary term that has the potential to cause confusion based on the differences between your definition and standard usage. All this was clearly stated in my previous comments.
I can give you a hint Onlooker,
I would prefer direct answers to my specific questions. For example, your item 3 is:
3. If that is true, and it surely must be, then several other things must logically follow. If there is now an arrangement of matter which contains a representation of form as a consequence of its own material arrangement, then that arrangement must be necessarily arbitrary to the thing it represents. In other words, if one thing is to represent another thing within a system, then it must be separate from the thing it represents. And if it is separate from it, then it cannot be anything but materially arbitrary to it (i.e. they cannot be the same thing).
In my attempt to understand what you are saying here, I extracted premise 2:
P2. If there is now an arrangement of matter which contains a representation of form as a consequence of its own material arrangement, then that arrangement must be necessarily arbitrary to the thing it represents.
and I proposed this restatement:
P2'. If there is an arrangement of matter that constitutes information, that arrangement is necessarily arbitrary to the thing to which the information refers.
I have at least twice now noted that I'm still not clear what you mean by "necessarily arbitrary". If you are interested in making your argument understandable, please either precisely define that term or modify P2' to eliminate those words while retaining your meaning.
The representation cannot logically be the effect it evokes, and this is supported by observation.
While I still don't see what that has to do with the questions I have posed about your argument, that depends on your definitions of "representation" and "effect". If it turns out that this is important to clarifying your meaning, I'm happy to discuss this further. At the moment, though, I am unable to parse your paragraph 3 without direct answers to the open questions in my last few comments.onlooker
September 8, 2012
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Hello KF, I will have to put some thought into that. Obviously, I think it is incomplete as it relates to the material exchange of information and how that might serve to define it. Thank you for asking.Upright BiPed
September 8, 2012
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Joe, It appears a recap is necessary…
Joe: Artificial ribosomes do not function and partially artificial ribosomes barely function. That show tell us that ribosomes are not reducible to matter and energy, ie how they function is not determined by physical law. CR: Are ribosomes prohibited by the laws of physics? Joe: No, but neither is my car, house nor computer. And blind and undirected physical processes cannot produce those either. CR: My point is, If something isn’t prohibited by the laws of physics, then the only thing that could prevent us from doing it is *knowing how*. This includes adapting matter into artificial ribosomes. Joe: So what? THAT does NOT eman blind and undirected processes didit.
I'm pointing out that your first premise is a contradiction. That's what. From an earlier comment…
For example, in terms of fundamental physics, we encounter events of extreme complexity on a daily basis. If you place a pot of water on a stove, every computer working on the planet could not solve the equations to predict exactly what all those water molecules will do. Even if they could, we’d need to determine their initial state, the state of all external influences, etc., which is also an intractable task. However, if what we really care about is making tea, enough of this complexly resolves itself into hight-level simplify that allows us to do just that. We can predict how long water will take to boil with reasonable accuracy by knowing it’s overall mass, the power of the heating element, etc. If we want more accuracy, we may need additional information. However this too exists in the form of relatively high-level phenomena which is also intractable. So, some kinds of phenomena can be explained in terms of themselves alone – without direct reference to anything at the atomic level. In other words, they are quasi-autonomous (nearly self-contained). Resolution into explicably at a higher level is emergence.
In other words, it's not necessary for genetic to be reeducate to law for us to explain the concrete biological complexity we observe. Are you suggesting the appearance of design cannot be explained? What is the appearance of design?critical rationalist
September 8, 2012
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CR
Take a piece of paper and write the letters “TGCA” on it.
If I did that, would the letters I write exist as rate-dependent structures that can be explained by physcial law, or are they rate-indepedent structures that can only be explained by a relationship established within physical system?. - - - - - - - From comment #30 above: UB "I believe your perspective is made clear here. You are talking about making arbitrary choices with regard to a program you write on top of a symbol system. I am talking about the symbol system itself. The fact that the letter “A” can be represented by “1000001” is arbitrary – not inexorable law." - - - - - - - CR, you contunue to be unable to properly orient yourself to the discussion. I've lost interest in trying to orient you against your will.Upright BiPed
September 8, 2012
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UB, Take a piece of paper and write the letters "TGCA" on it. Take the PDF instructions for drawing the glyphs "TGCA" and encode them into a strand of DNA (use Craig Venter's encoding scheme if you like) . Speak the words "TGCA" and record the vibrations generated. Arrange carbon atoms in the shape of the characters "TGAC" using an electron force microscope. Now, replace the actual base pairs "TGAC" in an organism's genome with any of the above. Do you end up with the same effect?critical rationalist
September 8, 2012
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Ribosomes are constructed every time a cell divides.
So what? THAT does NOT eman blind and undirected processes didit.
Are you suggesting some intelligent designer directly intervening to construct them?
Nice strawman. Does a programmer have to intervene for Word to do spellchecking?
First ,again with the stramwan. Darwinism isn’t merely chance and necessity.
Yes it is- but what else do YOU think it is? And BTW, ID does not try to answer the "why". ID tries to answer the question "how did it come to be this way?" ie by design or not.
IOW, if you assume the designer is inexplicable, yet is actually a good explanation, then why isn’t “Zeus rules here” the best, parsimonious explanation for falling apples and orbiting planets, along with everything else?
I see you don't understand parsimony.Joe
September 8, 2012
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Joe: are you actually reading my comment before replying?
CR: Except that is the misconception I keep pointing out. Apparently, you’re confused about the underlying explanation behind Darwinism, which is that the knowledge of how to create biological adaptations is genuinely created. Joe: There isn’t such a thing- all darwinism has is someone’s imagination, not evidence.
Even if that were true, (which I'm not suggesting it is) your response is a non-sequitur - that is unless you are denying that Darwinism as a *theory* with an underlying explanation exists.
Joe: Artificial ribosomes do not function and partially artificial ribosomes barely function. That show tell us that ribosomes are not reducible to matter and energy, ie how they function is not determined by physical law. CR: Are ribosomes prohibited by the laws of physics? Joe: No, but neither is my car, house nor computer. And blind and undirected physical processes cannot produce those either.
Yet another non-sequitur. Ribosomes are constructed every time a cell divides. Are you suggesting some intelligent designer directly intervening to construct them? My point is, If something isn't prohibited by the laws of physics, then the only thing that could prevent us from doing it is *knowing how*. This includes adapting matter into artificial ribosomes. Joe: The limitation is parsimony. Meaning we only invoke a designer as required by the evidence. And that means if necessity and/ or chance cannot account for it AND it meets some criteria, we infer it was designed. First ,again with the stramwan. Darwinism isn't merely chance and necessity. That's like saying someone defeated by a chess program was defeated by electrons and silicon. Second, "That's just what a deigned must have wanted" doesn't explain why we end up with one biological adaptation rather than another. It doesn't actually explain the question at hand. Third, I'd again ask: are you actually reading my comments?
All logically conceivable transformations of matter can be classified in the following three ways: transformations that are prohibited by the laws of physics, spontaneous transformations (such as the formation of stars) or transformations which are possible when the requisite knowledge of how to perform them are present. Every conceivable transformation of matter is either impossible because of the laws of physics or achievable if the right knowledge is present. This dichotomy is entailed in the scientific world view. If there was some transformation of matter that was not possible regardless of how much knowledge was brought to bare, this would be a testable regularity in nature. That is, we would predict whenever that transformation was attempted, it would fail to occur. This itself would be a law of physics, which would be a contradiction. Furthermore, if we really do reside in a finite bubble of explicably, which exists in an island in a sea of of inexplicability, the inside of this bubble cannot be explicable either. This is because the inside is supposedly dependent what occurs in this inexplicable realm. Any assumption that the world is inexplicable leads to bad explanations. That is, no theory about what exists beyond this bubble can be any better than “Zeus rules” there. And, given the dependency above (this realm supposedly effects us), this also means there can be no better expiation that “Zeus rules” inside this bubble as well. In other words, our everyday experience in this bubble would only appear explicable if we carefully refrain from asking specific questions. Note this bares a strong resemblance to a pre-scientific perspective with its distinction between an Earth designed for human beings and a heaven that is beyond human comprehension.
IOW, if you assume the designer is inexplicable, yet is actually a good explanation, then why isn't "Zeus rules here" the best, parsimonious explanation for falling apples and orbiting planets, along with everything else? A simple, abstract designer with no limitations would be simpler "theory" than anything else we could possibly conceive of. And, according to you, such a designer is necessary for anything to exist. If we wanted to incorporate into our world view an imaginary realm of which we have no evidence and can be no evidence, then we need not have bothered do abandon the myths of antiquity. And we wouldn't have. But we did.critical rationalist
September 8, 2012
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F/N: The UD glossary defn of info: ____________ >>Information — Wikipedia, with some reorganization, is apt: “ . . that which would be communicated by a message if it were sent from a sender to a receiver capable of understanding [--> including, acting on (including per algorithmic programs such as a branch on condition, etc)] the message . . . . In terms of data, it can be defined as a collection of facts [i.e. as represented or sensed in some format] from which conclusions may be drawn [and on which decisions and actions may be taken].” >> ___________ Good enough for you UB? KFkairosfocus
September 8, 2012
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...and that is the reason for the acrimonious excuses that the argument is "just too confusing to understand", as well as the constant definition derby, obfuscation and ad hominem attacks. Materialism simply sucks for materialist.Upright BiPed
September 8, 2012
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"...understanding the consequences of your answer..." That is exactly correct. Once you allow that information is the form of a thing instantiated in an arrangement of matter, i.e. in a material medium, then you have allowed that a rate-independent representation exists, and the entire remainder of my argument falls out from that - because it physically has to.Upright BiPed
September 8, 2012
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And for those how might be interested, look what I stumbled upon: Elizabeth Liddle:
Yes, and, if you remember, I retracted my claim.
https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/science-and-freethinking/#comment-408199 my oh my what began with such a bang ended with such a whimperMung
September 7, 2012
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onlooker:
Responding to questions with questions is deliberately evasive.
Except when you do it.Mung
September 7, 2012
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onlooker:
I just explained that without more clarity around your definition of “information” the question is not well formed and hence unanswerable.
IOW, I don't wantto answer it, because I understand the consequences of my answer, therefore I will assert without any supporting argument that the question lacks sufficient clarity (I can't answer it the way I want to) and therefore it is unanswerable. Now, let's put to the test the assertion that the question is unanswerable. "Do you think an arrangement of matter that contains information (i.e. the form of a thing) as a consequence of its arrangement can also be the effect it evokes within the system?" Well, gee, no. That would be illogical.Mung
September 7, 2012
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CR:
...the knowledge of how to create biological adaptations is genuinely created.
Created by who or what? And stored where? And transmitted how? And what is a non-genuine creation? And what's required to get to the point where biological adaptations are even possible? What is an adaptation, after all? You're still not even in the same discussion, CR. No wonder there's so much confusion.Mung
September 7, 2012
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ok, I think I am beginning to understand the problem here. Upright BiPed needs to set it out step-by-step-by-step-by-step-by-step-by-step-by-step-by-step-by-step-by-step-by-step-by-step-by-step-by-step-by-step-by-step-by-step-by-step-by-step-by-step-by-step-by-step-by-step-by-step-by-step-by-step-by-step-by-step-by-step-by-step-by-step-by-step-by-step-by-step ....Mung
September 7, 2012
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Ah well... I'm out.Upright BiPed
September 7, 2012
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I can give you a hint Onlooker, The representation cannot logically be the effect it evokes, and this is supported by observation. And if they are not the same thing, then the relationship between them is necessarily arbitrary from a physical perspective (regardless of how that relationship originated). If you do not like that word, you can use whatever word you like. I have seen such described as "immaterial", or "non-material", or "physico-dynamically inert", etc, etc. You can also use the word Dr Liddle suggested - "materially dissociated". It matters not, to me.Upright BiPed
September 7, 2012
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CR: Bob was apt: "Who de cap fit, let 'im wear it." I spoke to a common phenomenon with abundant examples in point starting with the no 1 "new atheist." And I spoke in a context with excellent antecedents ranging back to Plato [since say Paul is liable to cause even louder eruptions in various fever swamps, let us start with Plato . . . ], whom I cited. KFkairosfocus
September 7, 2012
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