Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

UB Sets It Out Step-By-Step

Categories
Intelligent Design
Share
Facebook
Twitter/X
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

UD Editors:  No one has come close to refuting UB’s thesis after 129 comments.  We are moving this post to the top of the page to give the materialists another chance.

I take the following from an excellent comment UB made in a prior post.  UB lays out his argument step by step, precept by precept.  Then he arrives at a conclusion.  In order for his argument to be valid, the conclusion must follow from the premises.  In order for his argument to be sound, each of the premises must be true.

Now here is the challenge to our Darwinist friends.  If you disagree with UB’s conclusion, please demonstrate how his argument is either invalid (as a matter of logic the conclusion does not follow from the premises) or unsound (one or more of the premises are false).  Good luck (you’re going to need it).

Without further ado, here is UB’s argument:

1.  A representation is an arrangement of matter which evokes an effect within a system (e.g. written text, spoken words, pheromones, animal gestures, codes, sensory input, intracellular messengers, nucleotide sequences, etc, etc).

2.  It is not logically possible to transfer information (the form of a thing; a measured aspect, quality, or preference) in a material universe without using a representation instantiated in matter.

3.  If that is true, and it surely must be, then several other things must logically follow. If there is now an arrangement of matter which contains a representation of form as a consequence of its own material arrangement, then that arrangement must be necessarily arbitrary to the thing it represents. In other words, if one thing is to represent another thing within a system, then it must be separate from the thing it represents. And if it is separate from it, then it cannot be anything but materially arbitrary to it (i.e. they cannot be the same thing).

4.  If that is true, then the presence of that representation must present a material component to the system (which is reducible to physical law), while its arrangement presents an arbitrary component to the system (which is not reducible to physical law).

5.  If that is true, and again it surely must be, then there has to be something else which establishes the otherwise non-existent relationship between the representation and the effect it evokes within the system. In fact, this is the material basis of Francis Crick’s famous ‘adapter hypothesis’ in DNA, which lead to a revolution in the biological sciences. In a material universe, that something else must be a second arrangement of matter; coordinated to the first arrangement as well as to the effect it evokes.

6.  It then also follows that this second arrangement must produce its unambiguous function, not from the mere presence of the representation, but from its arrangement.  It is the arbitrary component of the representation which produces the function.

7.  And if those observations are true, then in order to actually transfer recorded information, two discrete arrangements of matter are inherently required by the process; and both of these objects must necessarily have a quality that extends beyond their mere material make-up. The first is a representation and the second is a protocol (a systematic, operational rule instantiated in matter) and together they function as a formal system. They are the irreducible complex core which is fundamentally required in order to transfer recorded information.

8.  During protein synthesis, a selected portion of DNA is first transcribed into mRNA, then matured and transported to the site of translation within the ribosome. This transcription process facilitates the input of information (the arbitrary component of the DNA sequence) into the system. The input of this arbitrary component functions to constrain the output, producing the polypeptides which demonstrate unambiguous function.

9.  From a causal standpoint, the arbitrary component of DNA is transcribed to mRNA, and those mRNA are then used to order tRNA molecules within the ribosome. Each stage of this transcription process is determined by the physical forces of pair bonding. Yet, which amino acid appears at the peptide binding site is not determined by pair bonding; it is determined  by the aaRS. In other words, which amino acid appears at the binding site is only evoked by the physical structure of the nucleic triplet, but is not determined by it. Instead, it is determined (in spatial and temporal isolation) by the physical structure of the aaRS. This is the point of translation; the point where the arbitrary component of the representation is allowed to evoke a response in a physically determined system – while preserving the arbitrary nature of the representation.

10.  This physical event, translation by a material protocol, as well as the transcription of a material representation, is ubiquitous in the transfer of recorded information.

CONCLUSION:  These two physical objects (the representation and protocol) along with the required preservation of the arbitrary component of the representation, and the production of unambiguous function from that arbitrary component, confirm that the transfer of recorded information in the genome is just like any other form of recorded information. It’s an arbitrary relationship instantiated in matter.

Comments
It is has been quite an eye-opener to be arguing with “Darwinian” materialists over the observed mechanism of Darwinian evolution. I noticed a passage from a link in regard to Darwinian mechanisms (replicators, the onset of information, etc) regarding the origin of life (an exchange between OoL philanthropist Harry Lonsdale and science writer Susan Mathur):
Harry Lonsdale: Can I back up before I answer that question. That sentence you read to me over the phone as to what I hoped it was people would give me in terms of their proposals, I must say I was very much underwhelmed by the breadth of their proposals. Even the experts I drew together in San Diego a month or so ago, even they don't have a single clear model of how life began. There's no universal agreement. We don't have a theory. We're a long way from home base. Probably 10 or 20 years away before we have a plausible model and even further out into the future before we can say we know how life began. I'll be dead before people can make that statement. Suzan Mazur: Is it because your background is in chemistry that you were more interested in proposals based on chemical approaches to origin of life? Harry Lonsdale: I would say that of the eight people on my panel, three at most were trained in chemistry, some were biochemists, there was one physicist, a space scientist and two biologists -- it was a pretty broad range of expertise. No engineers. I guess we underplayed the physical processes, but not intentionally. Suzan Mazur: But did you get proposals along those lines? Harry Lonsdale: A few. We had proposals that came in from every direction. Suzan Mazur: Chris McKay once told me the following: "The Darwinian paradigm breaks down in two obvious ways. First, and most clear, Darwinian selection cannot be responsible for the origin of life. Secondly, there is some thought that Darwinian selection cannot fully explain the rise of complexity at the molecular level. . . . It can't be Darwinian all the way down. . . . Darwinian selection only works when there's software. And everything that's prebiotic is hardware." Again, "life" has been defined on the Origin of Life Challenge website as "a self-sustaining chemical system capable of undergoing Darwinian evolution." My question is that by steering your prizewinning search for the origin of life in the direction of Darwinian science, which is now being seriously marginalized in light of the "evo-devo revolution" -- as Noam Chomsky put it -- and the evolution paradigm shift, with some of our most esteemed scientists declaring neo-Darwinism dead -- the accumulation of genetic mutations being enough to change one species to another having not been validated in the literature -- are you concerned that you and your panel may have angled the prize in the direction of false hypotheses? Harry Lonsdale: I think that first life was capable of evolution and that evolution began on that day that first life came into being. Was there evolution before that first life? I don't think that. Evolution is what brought that first life to you and me -- a long, long tedious process that took billions of years. We were hoping people might submit proposals covering the gamut, from first life to modern life. No proposals attempted to do that. It's too big a question right now. It's 2012 -- let's wait until 2025. Maybe by then people will have put the whole puzzle together, but right now we're looking at pieces, or pieces of pieces, of this puzzle. Suzan Mazur: What I'm questioning is the angling of the prize to Darwinian science which is now being marginalized. Harry Lonsdale: When you say angling toward. It's true. First life was angling toward but not yet there. Evolution came after the first life. Suzan Mazur: I asked Dave Deamer if life had a beginning or is it just part of a process inherent to the Universe. And he said, "It's part of a process." I also asked him if evolution started when the Universe was born. His response was "It depends on what you want to call evolution." Harry Lonsdale: Evolution is a process once life exists, is how I would put it.
“Darwinian evolution only works when there’s software”??? It sure sounds like these crazy researchers recognize that it's the existence of recorded information which facilitates the Darwinian mechanism. :) Don’t tell the fine folks at TSZ, as dogmatically as they fight for Darwin to have a seat at the information table, they’ll be so disappointed.Upright BiPed
December 10, 2012
December
12
Dec
10
10
2012
10:35 AM
10
10
35
AM
PDT
RB at 1275, Was that your summation, counselor? Of all your posts here, which have included some real Deusies, your last was your weakest. You took all your previous attacks and positioning ploys (which each failed under examination) and simply ran them again in bulk, with plenty of “therefores” and “neverthelesses” tossed in for good measure. Perhaps you intended to imply the very thing you failed to demonstrate. Let’s look:
We learned that you believe that “massive organization” in the form of living agents is responsible for the origin of the translation of DNA into proteins on earth 3.5. billion years ago.
My statement is empirically-based, and is parsimonious with the universal observation that all instances of semiosis are produced from “massive pre-existing organization”. What we’ve learned is that your position turns on a personal metaphysic belief that agency was an impossibility prior to life on earth. Whereas my position acknowledges the material evidence (presented in my argument) remains unaltered by anyone's prior assumptions.
But we also learned that the inference that compels that conclusion isn’t applicable to those agents themselves, or the origin of ‘the entailments’/the TRI/a semiotic state anywhere else.
Yet again, this does nothing whatsoever to alter the material evidence. Our lack of knowledge being what it is; on one side of a rational line of inquiry appears an infinite regress (which informs us of nothing), and on the other side is the valid logic that if everything is contingent, then there must be something that is necessary. We can choose which side of that line satisfies us and we can contemplate why we choose among them. For generations materialists happily (and selectively) believed the universe was eternal and needed no explanation from where it came. You have chosen to not be agnostic on the matter, so throwing stones at the infinite regress (without having a solution) is hardly substantive.
We learned that semiotic theory per se does not assert that a particular class or classes of mechanism is required to create (result in, cause) the entailments/the TRI/a semiotic state. It therefore does not compel the conclusion that design is required. We learned that semiotic theory per se does not assert that a particular class or classes of mechanism cannot create (result in, cause) the entailments/the TRI/a semiotic state. Therefore unguided processes are not excluded by semiotic theory.
Correct, an inventory of the necessary material conditions for the transfer of recorded information should not assume any conclusions as to the source of the transfer (i.e methodological discipline).
We therefore learned that claims such as “the observed physical entailments of information transfer is beyond even a conceptual unguided process” do not follow from semiotic theory, after all.
That comment was perfectly suited to the person it was made to; as evidence by the fact that she could not provide one. I have since invited you to provide one, which you failed to do.
We learned that, nevertheless, that construing a system as “semiotic” adds great value to the contemporary physicochemical (Thank you Allan)** description of the translation of DNA into proteins.
You have explicitly agreed; an accurate description of a system is essential to understanding it.
We also learned, however, that construing a system as “semiotic” yields no entailments beyond those that already follow from that physicochemical description. To ask for the same is “to impose on it questions that it does not answer.”
If that physicochemical description does not account for the arbitrary relationship which is universally observed in such systems (including the system under question) then that description cannot help but be incomplete. You are not arguing with the more comprehensive description because it adds nothing. Why the pretense otherwise, if not to mount a rhetorical defense?
When I asked for just one example, analogous to your arson tale, that illustrates that value, we learned that OoL researchers (and hordes of onlookers) can know with complete certainty that a physiochemically-arbitrary relationship instantiated in a physical system must be accounted for in order to explain the origin of life. But that’s not really very specific, is it.
lol. Other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?
So I asked again for just one specific example illustrating how that ‘certain knowledge’ can in fact guide specific empirical research. We learned that we don’t get to learn that.
You want a specific example of how knowing ‘an arbitrary relationship must be instantiated in the system’ can assist those who are trying to replicate the system. You’re not that dumb, perhaps that obtuse.
We learned not only that contemporary Darwinian systems display ‘the entailments’/the TRI/a semiotic state, but that all Darwinian systems MUST display those entailments.
Correct, the Darwinian mechanism operates on the existence of recorded information. If there is recorded information, then the material conditions required for it will be present.
Simpler Darwinian systems aren’t possible. Not that you said they aren’t possible. But they aren’t, because you said so.
As already stated, a simpler system may or may not be possible. This does not change what universal observation and logical necessity demonstrates as necessary.
We should be grateful. You’ve spared researchers interested in, for example, the RNA world hypothesis (which postulates a replicating Darwinian system devoid of a distinction between genotype and phenotype) a great deal of work, because you have certain knowledge that such hypotheses must be wrong. These researchers should defer to your armchair and expend their efforts on something else.
Based on your own understanding of the issues, I don’t think you need to worry overmuch about OoL researchers. They are attempting to resolve the genotype/phenotype distinction, not ignore it or pretend it adds nothing to the conversation. You should try reading their work.
Oh, and we learned that when you make flatly, abjectly contradictory statements, to point that out is “obfuscation” and “word smithing.”
People who obfuscate issues for the express purpose of gaining a rhetorical benefit, never enjoy being called out for it. You are no different.
Oh yeah, we learned that you’re very concerned about my horse.
What you’ve demonstrated is that your personal metaphysical assumptions trump material evidence, universal observation and logical necessity – violating the first rule of science. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ** I was forced to return to TSZ in order to understand the reference to Allan Miller’s correction of the term “physiochemical”. I should thank Allan as well. Oddly enough, an OoL researcher I have read in the past typically referred to these relationships as “physicochemically inert”, which is a term I picked up and used for quite some time - only to face the same style of pointless questioning that Onlooker has made famous on this thread. So I simply went back to “materially arbitrary”. Not until Bill used the term “physiochemically arbitrary” on this thread did I return to that phrase (not noticing the slight distinction in spelling and hence meaning). Even more odd; my word processing software has no problem with “physiochemical” but always rejected “physicochemical”. In any case, it is good that we understood the each other without the fabricated misinterpretation which has been demonstrated elsewhere on this thread.Upright BiPed
December 10, 2012
December
12
Dec
10
10
2012
10:18 AM
10
10
18
AM
PDT
McKay explained that Darwinian evolution, the dominant process on the planet, involves self-replication, a process only found in living things, and thus can't be responsible for the original creation of life.
http://www.astrobio.net/exclusive/4835/the-origin-of-life-challenge-searching-for-how-life-beganMung
December 9, 2012
December
12
Dec
9
09
2012
09:56 AM
9
09
56
AM
PDT
The Genotype/Phenotype DistinctionMung
December 9, 2012
December
12
Dec
9
09
2012
09:42 AM
9
09
42
AM
PDT
Reciprocating Bill:
...the RNA world hypothesis...postulates a replicating Darwinian system devoid of a distinction between genotype and phenotype...
Again, an assertion for which not a single shred of evidence is offered. Bill, we're skeptics here. We require strong evidence in support of such claims.Mung
December 8, 2012
December
12
Dec
8
08
2012
07:42 PM
7
07
42
PM
PDT
Oh yeah, we learned that you’re very concerned about my horse.
Your horse is dead Bill. You want us to be concerned over it's burial?Mung
December 8, 2012
December
12
Dec
8
08
2012
07:33 PM
7
07
33
PM
PDT
Reciprocating Bill:
- We learned that semiotic theory per se does not assert that a particular class or classes of mechanism is required to create (result in, cause) the entailments/the TRI/a semiotic state. It therefore does not compel the conclusion that design is required.
That's right Bill. Design is not a conclusion, it's an inference. How many times do we have to say this before you stop crowing over each instance where it's demonstrated to be true? Reciprocating Bill seems to think that design should be rejected since it does not follow as a logical deduction. RB:
But we also learned that the inference that compels that conclusion isn’t applicable to those agents themselves, or the origin of ‘the entailments’/the TRI/a semiotic state anywhere else.
An inference that compels a conclusion? That's what you are looking for? It's no surprise to me that "an inference that compels a conclusion" isn't applicable to whatever it is that you want to apply it to. What does that even mean? An inference that compels a conclusion. I don't even know what language that is. Bill, are you just making stuff up now?
- We also learned, however, that construing a system as “semiotic” yields no entailments beyond those that already follow from that physicochemical description.
Yet another unsubstantiated assertion from that paragon of skepticism, Reciprocating Bill. Nothing follows from a description. Fail at logic! sigh Are you the best that TSZ has to offer?Mung
December 8, 2012
December
12
Dec
8
08
2012
07:30 PM
7
07
30
PM
PDT
UB:
Entirely gone are the smug claims of a complete and utter refutation of the argument in the OP
But we've learned so much. - We learned that you believe that "massive organization" in the form of living agents is responsible for the origin of the translation of DNA into proteins on earth 3.5. billion years ago. - But we also learned that the inference that compels that conclusion isn't applicable to those agents themselves, or the origin of 'the entailments'/the TRI/a semiotic state anywhere else. - We learned that semiotic theory per se does not assert that a particular class or classes of mechanism is required to create (result in, cause) the entailments/the TRI/a semiotic state. It therefore does not compel the conclusion that design is required. - We learned that semiotic theory per se does not assert that a particular class or classes of mechanism cannot create (result in, cause) the entailments/the TRI/a semiotic state. Therefore unguided processes are not excluded by semiotic theory. - We therefore learned that claims such as "the observed physical entailments of information transfer is beyond even a conceptual unguided process" do not follow from semiotic theory, after all. - We learned that, nevertheless, that construing a system as "semiotic" adds great value to the contemporary physicochemical (Thank you Allan) description of the translation of DNA into proteins. - We also learned, however, that construing a system as "semiotic" yields no entailments beyond those that already follow from that physicochemical description. To ask for the same is "to impose on it questions that it does not answer." - Nevertheless, we learned that construing a system as "semiotic" can still be very valuable. - When I asked for just one example, analogous to your arson tale, that illustrates that value, we learned that OoL researchers (and hordes of onlookers) can know with complete certainty that a physiochemically-arbitrary relationship instantiated in a physical system must be accounted for in order to explain the origin of life. - But that's not really very specific, is it. Not as specific as a one paragraph fire tetrahedron fable in which you imagine putting me on trial for arson. (Freud smiles somewhere). - So I asked again for just one specific example illustrating how that ‘certain knowledge’ can in fact guide specific empirical research. - We learned that we don't get to learn that. - We learned not only that contemporary Darwinian systems display 'the entailments'/the TRI/a semiotic state, but that all Darwinian systems MUST display those entailments. Simpler Darwinian systems aren't possible. Not that you said they aren't possible. But they aren't, because you said so. We should be grateful. You've spared researchers interested in, for example, the RNA world hypothesis (which postulates a replicating Darwinian system devoid of a distinction between genotype and phenotype) a great deal of work, because you have certain knowledge that such hypotheses must be wrong. These researchers should defer to your armchair and expend their efforts on something else. - Oh, and we learned that when you make flatly, abjectly contradictory statements, to point that out is "obfuscation" and "word smithing." - Oh yeah, we learned that you're very concerned about my horse.Reciprocating Bill
December 8, 2012
December
12
Dec
8
08
2012
06:47 PM
6
06
47
PM
PDT
keiths:
Darwinian evolution doesn’t require a genotype/phenotype distinction. If you have replication with heritable variation and differential reproductive success, then you have Darwinian evolution.
All assertion. No evidence. In true "skeptical" (read TSZ) style.
Evolution is the change in the inherited characteristics of biological populations over successive generations.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution
A trait is a distinct variant of a phenotypic character of an organism that may be inherited, be environmentally determined or be a combination of the two.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenotypic_trait
Darwinism originally included broad concepts of transmutation of species or of evolution which gained general scientific acceptance when Charles Darwin published On the Origin of Species, including concepts which predated Darwin's theories, but subsequently referred to specific concepts of natural selection, the Weismann barrier or in genetics the central dogma of molecular biology.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwinism
The central dogma of molecular biology describes the flow of genetic information within a biological system. It was first stated by Francis Crick in 1958[1] and re-stated in a Nature paper published in 1970:[2] Information flow in biological systems The central dogma of molecular biology deals with the detailed residue-by-residue transfer of sequential information. It states that such information cannot be transferred back from protein to either protein or nucleic acid. Or, as Marshall Nirenberg said, "DNA makes RNA makes protein."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_dogma_of_molecular_biology Why are we teaching these people about Darwinian evolution? Shouldn't they know this already?Mung
December 8, 2012
December
12
Dec
8
08
2012
05:42 PM
5
05
42
PM
PDT
Can you at least attempt to demonstrate that the observations in the argument are false, or that the conclusions do not logically follow from those observations?Mung
December 8, 2012
December
12
Dec
8
08
2012
02:57 PM
2
02
57
PM
PDT
RB at 1269,
we can know with complete certainty* that a physiochemically-arbitrary relationship instantiated in a physical system must be accounted for in order to explain the Origin of Life.**
*(With “complete certainty,” eh? Modest, much?) **(Which again assumes the conclusion that simpler precursor replicators lacking some or all of your “entailments” are impossible.)
* I am also certain that a fire requires a heat source, fuel, and oxydizer. ** The argument in the OP is not about whether or not a simpler precursor replicates while lacking some or all of the entailments described in my argument. Its about what is materially necessary to transfer and translate recorded information, including that within the genome. Can you demonstrate that the observations in the argument are false, or that the conclusions do not logically follow from those obsverations?Upright BiPed
December 8, 2012
December
12
Dec
8
08
2012
02:48 PM
2
02
48
PM
PDT
RB at 1268, Entirely gone are the smug claims of a complete and utter refutation of the argument in the OP, now you've atrophied to the point of wordsmithing a side exchange which does nothing whatsoever to refute the observations or logic in the argument.
There is only one possible referent of “you say that a simpler system is possible,” namely my recent statements referring to hypothesized simpler Darwinian precursors
Then I needn't waste any more time trying to get you to acknowledge the distinction between a merely simpler system versus one that does not require recorded information, such as the Darwinian mechanism. If the entire planet's inventory of biology textbooks and research papers are not enough for you grasp this distinction, then what hope do I have? By the way... the immediate referent of my comment was your claim: “Darwinian evolution is not dependent upon the presence of the entailments/the TRI/a semiotic state in order to function. That claim inaccurately conveys the essential elements upon which the Darwinian process depends.” ...which is demonstrably false. Darwinian evolution is a material process which is wholly depedent upon information materially recorded in the genome. And as far as the transfer of genetic information not exemplifying a semiotic state, that is the claim which you have been so clearly unable to refute. So in one hand you'd like to make statements completely contrary to the universal observations of biology, and in the other you'd like to simply assume your conclusion (which you admit is a purely hypothetical belief to begin with). Very convincing.Upright BiPed
December 8, 2012
December
12
Dec
8
08
2012
02:28 PM
2
02
28
PM
PDT
Reciprocating Bill:
How would someone with your views, skills, interests and intuitions put that knowledge to empirical work?
Red herring. How is your hypothetical simpler system for which you have no actual empirical evidence distinguishable from the system set out in the OP? CroakMung
December 8, 2012
December
12
Dec
8
08
2012
12:40 PM
12
12
40
PM
PDT
UB:
we can know with complete certainty* that a physiochemically-arbitrary relationship instantiated in a physical system must be accounted for in order to explain the Origin of Life.**
What I am asking for is an illustration of how that 'certain knowledge' can guide specific empirical research. You say that it can guide researchers (and hordes of onlookers) in many ways, depending upon their views, skills, interests, and intuitions. Will you please provide an example (there should be many) at the level of specificity present in your fantasy of putting me on trial for arson? An example of that certain knowledge making a difference to empirical research. How would someone with your views, skills, interests and intuitions put that knowledge to empirical work? *(With "complete certainty," eh? Modest, much?) **(Which again assumes the conclusion that simpler precursor replicators lacking some or all of your "entailments" are impossible.)Reciprocating Bill
December 8, 2012
December
12
Dec
8
08
2012
12:00 PM
12
12
00
PM
PDT
UB:
Your obfuscation is deliberate.
Now now. UB at 1256:
You say that a simpler system is capable. I have not claimed it impossible.
There is only one possible referent of "you say that a simpler system is possible," namely my recent statements referring to hypothesized simpler Darwinian precursors:
The conclusion assumed is that the current system cannot have as a precursor a simpler form of replication and variation.
To ensure there was no misunderstanding:
The conclusion assumed is that the current system cannot have as a precursor a simpler form of replication, variation, and differential reproduction – IOW, a simpler process that that is nevertheless Darwinian.
And again:
a Darwinian process starting with much simpler replicators can have given rise to that apparatus...Of course, “can” denotes an hypothesis, not a conclusion."
Obviously the "simpler system" to which I refer is an hypothesized precursor in the form of a simpler Darwinian system. With that in mind: UB:
You say that a simpler system is capable. I have not claimed it impossible.
Has only one reading:
You say that a simpler system is capable. I have not claimed it [the simpler Darwinian precursor you hypothesize] impossible.
Yet obviously you have.Reciprocating Bill
December 8, 2012
December
12
Dec
8
08
2012
11:40 AM
11
11
40
AM
PDT
Mung: It seems there is not a grasping that the chaining chemistry in effect simply clicks the chain together [making a string structure], the key differentiating aspect is in the side branches, which then lead to functionally specific outcomes on folding, agglomeration and/or activation. Moreover, the CCA coupler that loads an AA to a tRNA is a universal joint too. It is the configuration of the tRNA that sets up the specific AA to be loaded by the specific "loading enzyme." Which brings in a chicken-egg situation -- actually twenty or so of them. Then, the mRNA specifying the AA sequence starting with Methionine is determined INFORMATIONALLY based on the function of tRNA, mRNA, ribosome and the dozens of support players in the properly organised cell. Where, as I have repeatedly highlighted, something like a prick and decant into solution exercise underscores just how isolated correct, workable functional configs are in the space of physically possible arrangements. That is, multipart function based on specific config naturally leads to islands of function and it is those who would dismiss this who properly have a burden of warrant to meet. Not seeing the pivotal role of information and functionally specific organisation here, is a case of patently selective hyperskepticism that has to be worked at. Probably, due to where all of this naturally and strongly points. Namely, to the very strong induction that FSCO/I comes from design. KFkairosfocus
December 8, 2012
December
12
Dec
8
08
2012
11:07 AM
11
11
07
AM
PDT
How do we represent a three dimensional structure with structural, mechanical or catalytic function(s) as a linear digital sequence? Can this be done by a system composed of a single part? Is that even a coherent question?Mung
December 8, 2012
December
12
Dec
8
08
2012
09:33 AM
9
09
33
AM
PDT
A polypeptide is a single linear polymer chain of amino acids bonded together by peptide bonds between the carboxyl and amino groups of adjacent amino acid residues. The sequence of amino acids in a protein is defined by the sequence of a gene, which is encoded in the genetic code.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein onlooker:
We can model transcription and translation as a code, but in fact what is actually happening is just biochemistry.
That has to be one of the most ignorant comments ever uttered.Mung
December 8, 2012
December
12
Dec
8
08
2012
09:27 AM
9
09
27
AM
PDT
RB at 1258, Sure, no problem; its already been done. Just like the fire investigator knowing with complete certainty that a heat source had to be accounted for in order to explain the fire, so too, among the cadre of competitive OoL researchers and the hordes of onlookers, we can know with complete certainty that a physiochemically-arbitrary relationship instantiated in a physical system must be accounted for in order to explain the Origin of Life. How that critical requirement serves any individual person would depend on their own views, skills, interests, and intuitions. The more the merrier.Upright BiPed
December 8, 2012
December
12
Dec
8
08
2012
09:06 AM
9
09
06
AM
PDT
RB at 1260, Your obfuscation is deliberate. Here is exactly what I said:
I do not assume that the current system cannot have a precursor, and frankly, the precursor has no bearing on the observation being made. The current system is Darwinian evolution, which is based on the existence of a physiochemically-arbitrary relationship instantiated into a physical system; the genotype-phenotype distinction (i.e. form recorded in an information-bearing medium, and the subsequent material production of that form). That relationship is absolutely fundamental to the operation of the system, and it requires very specific material conditions. The issue is the origination of those conditions. Hardly excluding a precursor (of some kind) to the establishment of the current system, one would be quite obviously necessary. But that precursor won’t be Darwinian evolution because until the material conditions exist which instantiate that physiochemically-arbitrary relationship, there is no Darwinian evolution.
Upright BiPed
December 8, 2012
December
12
Dec
8
08
2012
08:48 AM
8
08
48
AM
PDT
How much is a Darwinian promissory note worth?Mung
December 8, 2012
December
12
Dec
8
08
2012
08:21 AM
8
08
21
AM
PDT
What he said, Bill, is that the system is irreducibly complex. It does not follow that a simpler system is not possible.Mung
December 7, 2012
December
12
Dec
7
07
2012
05:50 PM
5
05
50
PM
PDT
UB at 1186:
Darwinian evolution is dependent on the presence of recorded information in order to function. The presence of recorded information requires very specific material conditions in order to exist. Darwinian evolution cannot be the cause of those specific material conditions.
RB:
The conclusion assumed is that the current system cannot have as a precursor a simpler form of replication and variation. IOW, a simpler process that is nevertheless Darwinian.
UB at 1256:
You say that a simpler system is capable. I have not claimed it impossible.
Well, yes you have.Reciprocating Bill
December 7, 2012
December
12
Dec
7
07
2012
05:17 PM
5
05
17
PM
PDT
You're honor, it was all just physics and chemistry.Mung
December 7, 2012
December
12
Dec
7
07
2012
04:54 PM
4
04
54
PM
PDT
UB:
Obviously, knowing that the necessary conditions for an accidental fire were present on that starry night in July was useless information.
Now construct an analogous narrative illustrating how knowledge of the necessary conditions for the the TRI (the entailments), have guided, or potentially could guide, investigation into the origins of the the translation of DNA into proteins. If you can, supply specifics similar in degree of detail to those in your imagined tale.Reciprocating Bill
December 7, 2012
December
12
Dec
7
07
2012
02:20 PM
2
02
20
PM
PDT
Bill’s neighbor’s barn burned down last July, and because they had been feuding all month long, Bill was charged with the crime of arson. At his trial, the prosecution's witnesses told the jury that a suspicious can of fuel had been found very near the barn and he confidently boasted in front of the jury that “the fire didn’t just start itself”. Bill’s defense attorney began to show photographs of several other spare cans of fuel that the neighbor kept lying around his property, but even more importantly, he had information that a small fire was started just a half mile away on the previous night and eyewitnesses claimed the fire was started by blowing embers from an industrial smokestack across the road. He sought to introduce into evidence their trash burning records from July, but the Judge refused to allow the evidence. Obviously, knowing that the necessary conditions for an accidental fire were present on that starry night in July was useless information. :)Upright BiPed
December 7, 2012
December
12
Dec
7
07
2012
01:01 PM
1
01
01
PM
PDT
RB at 1249,
UB: Darwinian evolution is dependent on the presence of recorded information in order to function. RB: Darwinian evolution is not dependent upon the presence of the entailments/the TRI/a semiotic state in order to function.
Note the difference in these two sentences. This is simply an assertion on your part. What you have failed to do is engage the evidence presented in the argument and demonstrate it to be false in any way whatsoever.
That claim inaccurately conveys the essential elements upon which the Darwinian process depends.
The claim conveys the fact that Darwinian evolution is dependent upon the presence of recorded information by means of chemical pattern within the gene. "ALTHOUGH THE FIELD OF GENETICS attained a high degree of sophistication years ago, the molecular basis of genetic information storage and retrieval lagged behind. Only within the last IO years has the chemical structure of DNA been established, mainly through the work of Chargaff et al. (3), Wilkins et al. (2g), and Watson and Crick (28). Some 8 years ago Gamow (5) proposed a theoretical code and thereby- stimulated a great deal of interest in this problem. The direct biochemical approach, that is, comparison of the nucleotide sequence of a gene with the amino acid sequence of its corresponding protein, posed technical problems of great magnitude. Some of these difficulties have been circumvented by the experimental approach summarized here". - (Marshal Nirenberg, Approximation of Genetic Code via cell-free protein synthesis directed by template RNA, Feb 1963) I am not going to argue this point with you. What we have in the real world is a system of organismal replication which copies both its information as well as the machinery capable of translating that information into material products. I have given you an argument as to what is materially necessary for the translation of that information. You say that a simpler system is capable. I have not claimed it impossible. However, possible or not, what is necessary to transfer recorded information is not refuted merely by you making a claim.
Replication, variation and differential reproduction do not require the entire contemporary apparatus construed by UB as “the entailments/the TRI/a semiotic state.” Therefore a Darwinian process starting with much simpler replicators can have given rise to that apparatus.
Firstly, the apparatus in my argument is comprised of an arrangement of matter to evoke an effect within a system, and a second arrangement of matter to determine what that effect will be. This system physically establishes a necessary (fundamental) arbitrariness in the system so that information may be recorded in a medium (a gene) and result in a product that is not the medium itself. Secondly, the claim that replication, variation, and differential reproduction do not require the transfer of recorded information is a claim that has no evidence whatsoever anywhere on Earth. It’s just an unsupported claim. In this passage, you then make a non-sequitur to a second claim based on the unsupported content of the first.
Of course, “can” denotes an hypothesis, not a conclusion. That hypothesis remains to be fully cashed out empirically.
Meaning there are exactly zero examples to support your claim that replication can exist without the transfer of recorded information, as described in the argument at the top of this page.
No one is claiming to have solved the Ool, or the origins of the current genetic system.
reservation before modesty
And, as Lizzie stated, the origin of the simplest precursor replicators remains to be understood, as they indeed can’t have arisen by a Darwinian process.
facepalmUpright BiPed
December 7, 2012
December
12
Dec
7
07
2012
10:20 AM
10
10
20
AM
PDT
RB at 1248
Of course an accurate characterization of the explanandum is important. We have that in the contemporary physiochemical understanding of the process. It is the additional construal, “it displays ‘the entailments’/the TRI/a semiotic state” that is useless. There is nothing contradictory in that.
What is contradictory is to say we need an accurate description of a system, and then deny an accurate description of the system because it doesn’t suit your personal preferences (even though you can’t refute it). Any physiochemical description of the system that does not account for the known physiochemical realities of the system is obviously an incomplete description. So if someone should propose an example of a system that did not match the valid observations of the original system, the value of having an accurate description of the original system becomes rather self-evident. Our understanding of material systems has always been advanced by a progression of more accurate models of reality (i.e. biosemiosis for instance) yet you have made it clear that you prefer to ignore these particular observations as opposed to integrating them. You choose to not integrate them not because they make your preferred explanation impossible, but because a more comprehensive and accurate description of the system presents additional hurdles for your preferred explanation to achieve. The actual validity of the observations does not even enter into it, which is why your personal judgment of them as useless is so transparent. Specifically, what you’ve failed to do is show that the observations at the top of this page are untrue, or that the conclusions do not follow from those observations. This is evidenced by the fact that you prejudice them, instead of proving them false.
For “It displays the entailments/the TRI/a semiotic state” to improve upon the current description, testable empirical consequences must follow from that further characterization beyond those that follow from the physiochemical description. As you say, “Like, what it entailed?”
In the service of your ideology, you continue to have a serious problem with methodological discipline. What you say here is flatly untrue. The argument presented above needn’t do any more than it does; it employs universal observation and logical necessity to establish what is materially necessary for the transfer of recorded information. But you want to impose on it questions that it does not answer. You do this for the express purpose that you might grant yourself the luxury of ignoring it. It is a deliberate contrivance on your part, supporting a deliberate act of denial. The fire tetrahedron cannot tell you if a fire was set by any particular source, it can only tell you what is materially necessary for a fire to be confirmed. But no matter what the source of the fire, the fire tetrahedron will always remain true. It does not become useless to the investigator, notwithstanding your lack of discipline. Clearly, it is not what the argument ‘does not say’ that you wish to ignore, it’s what it does say.Upright BiPed
December 7, 2012
December
12
Dec
7
07
2012
10:10 AM
10
10
10
AM
PDT
When you have problems admitting that the genetic code is a code . . .kairosfocus
December 7, 2012
December
12
Dec
7
07
2012
05:03 AM
5
05
03
AM
PDT
onlooker @1242:
Eric Anderson, I see you’ve returned to the discussion. I am very interested in reading your response to my 1177. Since Upright BiPed is so reluctant to answer direct questions posed by skeptics, the input of someone who supports his views could be very helpful in understanding what he is trying to say.
Well, I'm flattered by your request for a response, but I'm more of a drive-by commenter on this thread. :) I don't have the patience to deal with silly definitional battles over commonly-understood words like "arbitrary" that serve as smoke and mirrors to avoid the substantive issues. I am not purposely avoiding your #1177, just didn't notice it until now, so apologies for the late reply. You said:
You are mistaking the map for the territory. We can model transcription and translation as a code, but in fact what is actually happening is just biochemistry.
Wait. Are you saying there is no genetic code? Let's be extremely clear about this. What happens in transcription and translation is not just like a code or modeled after a code. It is based on a real code. There isn't a genetics textbook or university course on bioinformatics around that disputes this.
If you have a moment, please consider these two statements: S1. The fact that the processes of transcription and translation that result in protein synthesis involve a multistep chemical pathway justifies a conclusion of ID. S2. The ability of humans to model part of the protein synthesis process as an encoding of information justifies a conclusion of ID. Do either of these correspond to your understanding of Upright BiPed’s argument?
S1 - No. A multistep chemical pathway, in and of itself, does not justify a conclusion of ID. The stuff rotting in my compost is undergoing a multistep chemical process. There are multistep chemical processes that can happen by purely natural and material means. [Please note, this is not to say that certain multistep biochemical processes would not provide a valid inference to design. Indeed, we have good reason to infer that many of the processes taking place in organisms are intelligently designed.] S2. As I have said, your question is based on a faulty understanding of what actually exists. We're not talking about modeling things just for our convenience. We're talking about code and information that actually -- objectively and discoverably -- exists in living organisms. On your last question, I'm not sure you have understood UB's argument. His argument is quite simple and clear. Namely, we see in living organisms a semiotic system (in the very well-understood sense of the term; look up "semiotics" in the dictionary if needed); and this semiotic system is substantively the same as other semiotic systems we are familiar with.Eric Anderson
December 6, 2012
December
12
Dec
6
06
2012
10:30 PM
10
10
30
PM
PDT
1 4 5 6 7 8 48

Leave a Reply