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Was Blyth the true scientist and Darwin merely a plagiarist and charlatan?

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Edward Blyth
Edward Blyth (1810-1873)

Of course today, for biologists, Darwin is second only to God, and for many he may rank still higher.

— Michael White, 2002

1. Was Darwin a plagiarist and charlatan of limited intellect rather than the deity his followers portray him to be?

2. Was the creationist Edward Blyth the true pioneer of natural selection?

3. Was Blyth’s conception of natural selection as a mechanism of preservation versus a mechanism of innovation the more accurate characterization of what natural selection really is?

I wish to remain open-minded on these issues as they deal with history, and history is difficult to reconstruct. I assert is that these hypotheses are worth exploring, though not necessarily absolute truth. However, as I studied the topic further, it became clear a cloud of suspicion regarding Darwin could not be put to rest.

I now turn to the work of a very prominent anthropologist and ecologist by the name of Loren Eiseley (1907-1977). Eiseley was the head of the Anthropology Department at University of Pennsylvania and president of the American Institute of Human Paleontology before becoming the Provost of the University of Pennsylvania. By all counts he was a first rate scholar. He published several books about Darwin: Charles Darwin, Darwin’s Century, and Darwin and the Mysterious Mr. X: New Light on the Evolutionists.

Edward Blyth in Wikipedia:

Loren Eiseley, Professor of Anthropology and the History of Science at the University of Pennsylvania, spent decades tracing the origins of the ideas attributed to Darwin. In a 1979 book, he claimed that “the leading tenets of Darwin’s work “the struggle for existence, variation, natural selection and sexual selection” are all fully expressed in Blyth’s paper of 1835. He also cites a number of rare words, similarities of phrasing, and the use of similar examples, which he regards as evidence of Darwin’s debt to Blyth.

The above is taken from Darwin and the Mysterious Mr. X: New Light on the Evolutionists which was, curiously enough, published posthumously by Eiseley!

My hypothesis is that Edward Blyth should have been given far more credit for the theory of natural selection. Because Blyth was a creationist, he did not see natural selection as an adequate mechanism for biological innovation. He believed natural selection as primarily a means of preserving species, not primarily creating large scale biological innovations. Even though a creationist, he seemed open to some forms of evolution (as creationists are today), and it would be hard to argue that he believed in the absolute fixity of species. Blyth’s position on natural selection would be consistent with many IDers and creationists today.

It was Darwin who promoted the hypothesis that natural selection could be a designer substitute, but the basic concept of natural selection is attributable to Blyth. At the end of the essay I will provide links to papers by Blyth which I believe Darwin plagiarized. Keep in mind, Darwin’s book was published in 1859, 24 years after Blyth stated the fundamental tenets of Natural Selection. Here are a few highlights however:

Blyth in 1836:

It is a general law of nature for all creatures to propagate the like of themselves: and this extends even to the most trivial minutiae, to the slightest individual peculiarities; and thus, among ourselves, we see a family likeness transmitted from generation to generation.

When two animals are matched together, each remarkable for a certain given peculiarity, no matter how trivial, there is also a decided tendency in nature for that peculiarity to increase; and if the produce of these animals be set apart, and only those in which the same peculiarity is most apparent, be selected to breed from, the next generation will possess it in a still more remarkable degree; and so on, till at length the variety I designate a breed, is formed, which may be very unlike the original type.

The examples of this class of varieties must be too obvious to need specification: many of the varieties of cattle, and, in all probability, the greater number of those of domestic pigeons, have been generally brought about in this manner. It is worthy of remark, however, that the original and typical form of an animal is in great measure kept up by the same identical means by which a true breed is produced.

The original form of a species is unquestionably better adapted to its natural habits than any modification of that form; and, as the sexual passions excite to rivalry and conflict, and the stronger must always prevail over the weaker, the latter, in a state of nature, is allowed but few opportunities of continuing its race. In a large herd of cattle, the strongest bull drives from him all the younger and weaker individuals of his own sex, and remains sole master of the herd; so that all the young which are produced must have had their origin from one which possessed the maximum of power and physical strength; and which, consequently, in the struggle for existence, was the best able to maintain his ground, and defend himself from every enemy.

The concepts of natural selection and even sexual selection are laid out plainly, even the concept of adaptation and the struggle for existence!

Here is Blyth in 1836 again:

The true physiological system is evidently one of irregular and indefinite radiation, and of reiterate divergence and ramification from a varying number of successively subordinate typical plans; often modified in the extremes, till the general aspect has become entirely changed, but still retaining, to the very ultimate limits, certain fixed and constant distinctive characters, by which the true affinities of species may be always known; the modifications of each successive type being always in direct relation to particular localities, or to peculiar modes of procuring sustenance; in short, to the particular circumstances under which a species was appointed to exist in the locality which it indigenously inhabits, where alone its presence forms part of the grand system of the universe, and tends to preserve the balance of organic being, and, removed whence (as is somewhere well remarked by Mudie), a plant or animal is little else than a “disjointed fragment.”

This is astonishing! Blyth offers the concept of environments creating adaptive radiations!

Then Blyth in 1837:

A variety of important considerations here crowd upon the mind; foremost of which is the inquiry, that, as man, by removing species from their appropriate haunts, superinduces changes on their physical constitution and adaptations, to what extent may not the same take place in wild nature, so that, in a few generations, distinctive characters may be acquired, such as are recognised as indicative of specific diversity? It is a positive fact, for example, that the nestling plumage of larks, hatched in a red gravelly locality, is of a paler and more rufous tint than in those bred upon a dark soil.17 May not, then, a large proportion of what are considered species have descended from a common parentage?

Is this a stretch? Note what Ernst Mayr had to say:

The Missing Link

Eiseley (1959) vigorously promoted the thesis that Edward Blyth had established the theory of evolution by natural selection in 1835 and that Darwin surely had read his paper and quite likely had derived a major inspiration from it without ever mentioning this in his writings … Darwin quite likely had read Blyth’s paper but paid no further attention to it since it was antievolutionary in spirit and not different from the writings of other natural theologians in its general thesis

In fact what is a bit incriminating is Darwin owned copies of Blyth’s work, and that these copies have Darwin’s notes in the margin. Reading Blyth, it really is hard to see that Darwin made any innovation except the illogical conclusion that natural selection can create large scale biological complexity and design. As Allen Orr said, “selection does not trade in the currency of design”.

Something interesting is also apparent: there were a lot of naturalists who doubted the permanence of species, and Blyth was among them. Nevertheless, Darwin wrote in 1876, contrary to the truth:

I never happened to come across a single [naturalist] who seemed to doubt about the permanence of species …

Darwin effectively claims that he was singularly exceptional in his belief that species could be transformed by the environment. This claim is clearly untrue! The suspicion then arises whether Darwin was lying. In fact, Professor George Simpson acknowledges the appearance of lying with a bit of disbelief (the missing link):

These are extraordinary statements. They cannot literally be true, yet Darwin cannot be consciously lying, and he may therefore be judged unconsciously misleading, naive, forgetful, or all three.

Thus, Darwin’s behavior was so obviously suspicious to some that his admirers had to make excuses to explain away the appearance of lying.

The discussion of this topic will obviously be more than I have space for here, and I welcome input in the comments section if there are any relevant data points. But I close with some thoughts regarding Darwin’s genius (or lack thereof) or Darwin’s integrity (or lack thereof):

Professor C.D. Darlington writes The Mystery Begins

[Darwin] was able to put across his ideas not so much because of his scientific integrity, but because of his opportunism, his equivocation and his lack of historical sense. Though his admirers will not like to believe it, he accomplished his revolution by personal weakness and strategic talent more than by scientific virtue.

Thomas Henry Huxley Darwiniana Obituary:

Shrewsbury School could find nothing but dull mediocrity in Charles Darwin. The mind that found satisfaction in knowledge, but very little in mere learning; that could appreciate literature, but had no particular aptitude for grammatical exercises; appeared to the “strictly classical” pedagogue to be no mind at all. As a matter of fact, Darwin’s school education left him ignorant of almost all the things which it would have been well for him to know, and untrained in all the things it would have been useful for him to be able to do, in after life.

Thus, starved and stunted on the intellectual side, it is not surprising that Charles Darwin’s energies were directed towards athletic amusements and sport, to such an extent, that even his kind and sagacious father could be exasperated into telling him that “he cared for nothing but shooting, dogs, and rat-catching.”

Sir Gavin de Beer:

The boy [Darwin] developed very slowly: he was given, when small, to inventing gratuitous fibs and to daydreaming

and

Lies-and the thrills derived from lies-were for him indistinguishable from the delights of natural history or the joy of finding a long-sought specimen.

John and Mary Gribben:

… he devised a plan so cunning that even Machiavelli would have been proud of it. During 1845, Darwin worked on a second edition of his successful journal of the Beagle voyage, and added new material to the descriptions of the living things he had seen in South America. These new passages look innocuous enough in themselves. But as Howard Gruber pointed out in his book Darwin on Man (Wildwood House, London, 1974), if you compare the first and second editions … you can locate all the new material … string it together to make a coherent ‘ghost essay’ which conveys almost all of Darwin’s thinking about evolution [in 1845]. It is quite clear that this material must have been written as that coherent essay, then carefully chopped up and inserted into the journal.

The whole case of Darwin’s plagiarism was laid out rather tediously in Charles Darwin — The Truth? Interestingly the essay mentions Brian Goodwin and our very own John Davison here.

I hope this essay inspire some to revisit these important issues. If the hypothesis inspired by Eiseley is true, and if natural selection is an inadequate explanation for biological design, and if it turns out that Darwin was little more than a plagiarizing opportunist making illogical extrapolations of Blyth, then Blyth will be the one history smiles on, and Darwin will be the one history despises.

References to Blyth:

An Attempt to Classify the ‘Varieties’ of Animals with Observations on the Marked Seasonal and Other Changes Which Naturally Take Place in Various British Species, and Which Do Not Constitute Varieties by Blyth in 1835.

Varieties of Animals Part 2 by Blyth in 1835

Observations on the Various Seasonal and Other External Changes Which Regularly Take Place in Birds by Blyth in 1836

Seasonal and Other Changes in Birds – Part 2 by Blyth in 1836

Seasonal and Other Changes in Birds – Part 3 by Blyth in 1836

Seasonal and Other Changes in Birds – Part 4 by Blyth in 1836

On the Psychological Distinctions Between Man and All Other Animals by Blyth in 1837

Psychological Distinctions Between Man and Other Animals – Part 2 by Blyth in 1837

Psychological Distinctions Between Man and Other Animals – Part 3 by Blyth in 1837

Psychological Distinctions Between Man and Other Animals – Part 4 by Blyth in 1837

UPDATE 8/31/2006 I will link to opposing opinions on the net if I feel the scholarship is worthy. Here is Dr. N. Wells at ARN : Salvador on Blyth and Darwin

Comments
Has Richard Dawkins been notified that Darwin has been thrown overboard. Maybe PZ Meyers should apply for Sir Richard’s job. One reason we have an interest in Darwin is because that is what is taught in the schools. Since we both think Darwin is bogus, maybe you should join us in trying to get Darwin out of the curriculum.
Even when I was in high school, quite a few years ago, what was taught regarding evolution went quite a bit beyond Darwin, and that was before the molecular biology and computer revolutions. If what they are teaching today ends with Darwin, then they are clearly not devoting sufficient time to evolution. In a modern biology course, Darwin rates a brief mention as the originator of the theory, but the course should focus on evolution from a modern perspective, including such things as genetic algorithms, genomic analysis, and field studies of evolution in the wild.
I have read geneticists and molecular biologists who think that way. But perhaps trrll can tell us what makes an organism what it is. Then we can test the premise of whether or not one population can “evolve” into another. We know it isn’t the genes or DNA- we can place a mouse gene in an eyeless fly but the next generation of flies develops fly-eyes, not mouse eyes- so where is the info that tells what type of eye shoudl develop?
Your question reflects a quite profound misunderstanding of how gene regulation works. To make a fly develop a mouse eye, you would need to replace dozens of mouse genes that define how an eye is made, and they would have to be heavily modified to work in the background of the fly's body, something we do not even begin to know how to do. But one thing that evolution predicts is that the most fundamental regulatory genes—not the ones that define the details of how to make they eye itself, but the ones that simply turn on those eye-making genes—are likely to be highly conserved, because functions at such a deep level are hard for evolution to modify. A single gene defect that leads to no eye at all (as opposed to a malformed eye) is likely to be in such a regulatory gene. This led to the prediction that the homologous mouse gene might function similarly in a fly—a prediction that has turned out to be correct.trrll
August 28, 2006
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I don't think that gradualism was a prejudice of the times but rather of Charles Darwin and Charles Lyell. There were plenty of evolutionist at the time who disagreed with Darwin in rejecting saltation, including his own bulldog, Thomas Huxley, and his cousin Francis Galton. Darwin's commitment to gradualism was a philosophical one, as he believed any appeals to large evolutionary leaps were rubbish, and the equivalent of miracles and special creation. As his theory was explicitly purposed against clerical or religious thought he had an ideological interest in banishing such ideas. In the face what was the only possible evidence of the historical nature of his theory, the fossil record, he was committed to a rational defence of gradualism because that was the only conceivable way to get from one form to the other without design, especially given that such was unobservable in extant forms. For his theory to be fully materialistic it had to rely only on the same uniformitarian principles as invoked by Lyell. Darwin may not have had the benefit of computer simulations, but he had the same benefit of the fossil record and observational science as had his opponents, and yet he ignored these. And, speaking of what Darwin did add to the theory of evolution of his day:
"When Darwin presented a paper [with Alfred Wallace] to the Linnean Society in 1858, a Professor Haugton of Dublin remarked, `All that was new was false, and what was true was old.' This, we think, will be the final verdict on the matter, the epitaph on Darwinism."Fred Hoyle and N. Chandra Wickramasinghe, Evolution from Space (1981), p. 159.
Charlie
August 28, 2006
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Trrll, Has Richard Dawkins been notified that Darwin has been thrown overboard. Maybe PZ Meyers should apply for Sir Richard's job. One reason we have an interest in Darwin is because that is what is taught in the schools. Since we both think Darwin is bogus, maybe you should join us in trying to get Darwin out of the curriculum.jerry
August 28, 2006
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There aren’t any valid computer simulations of biological reality. trrll: There are simulations using genetic algorithms derived from natural selection designed to give an idea of what sort of behavior to expect from an evolutionary process. You believe that? Really? trrll: And they frequently exhibit punctuated equilibrium. Computer programs frequently exhibit what the programmer wants them to. And genetics & molecular biology are no friends of evolutionists. trrll: As a biologist who has discussed molecular biology with such scientific luminaries as Salvador Luria and Sydney Brenner, I can tell you that that is not what the molecular biologists think. I have read geneticists and molecular biologists who think that way. But perhaps trrll can tell us what makes an organism what it is. Then we can test the premise of whether or not one population can "evolve" into another. We know it isn't the genes or DNA- we can place a mouse gene in an eyeless fly but the next generation of flies develops fly-eyes, not mouse eyes- so where is the info that tells what type of eye shoudl develop? In his book "Why is a Fly not a Horse?" geneticist Giuseppe Sermonti recounts the following:
A scientist was talking with a farmer. They agreed that if the scientist could tell the farmer the number of sheep in his flock the scientist could take a sheep. The scientist glanced over the flock and shouted 53! “That’s right,” said the farmer. “That science of yours is pretty amazing. Take yer pick.” The scientist bends over and scoops up an animal. “You must be a molecular biologist.” Said the farmer. “Why yes, I am. How did you know?” inquired the scientist. “That’s not important” replied the farmer..” Just put down the dog.”
trrll Dr. Forrest’s testimony seems to have been pivotal in the decision, convincing a judge who ... ... had his mind made up BEFORE the trial- a judge who said he watched "Inherit the Wind" for historical content- a judge who was obviously over his head when it came to the expert testimony? LoL!Joseph
August 28, 2006
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There aren’t any valid computer simulations of biological reality.
There are simulations using genetic algorithms derived from natural selection designed to give an idea of what sort of behavior to expect from an evolutionary process. And they frequently exhibit punctuated equilibrium.
And genetics & molecular biology are no friends of evolutionists
As a biologist who has discussed molecular biology with such scientific luminaries as Salvador Luria and Sydney Brenner, I can tell you that that is not what the molecular biologists think.trrll
August 28, 2006
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Well she messed up on that.
Dr. Forrest's testimony seems to have been pivotal in the decision, convincing a judge who (prior to the trial) was described (by DaveScot, no less) as
a good old boy brought up through the conservative ranks. He was state attorney for D.A.R.E, an Assistant Scout Master with extensively involved with local and national Boy Scouts of America, political buddy of Governor Tom Ridge (who in turn is deep in George W. Bush’s circle of power), and finally was appointed by GW hisself. Senator Rick Santorum is a Pennsylvanian in the same circles (author of the “Santorum Language” that encourages schools to teach the controversy) and last but far from least, George W. Bush hisself drove a stake in the ground saying teach the controversy. Unless Judge Jones wants to cut his career off at the knees he isn’t going to rule against the wishes of his political allies.
Having read it myself, I can see how her testimony would convince any unbiased observer.trrll
August 28, 2006
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trrll: Yes, Darwin was clearly wrong about gradualism... Say what? trrll: Of course, Darwin did not have the benefit of modern computer simulations that have established that the theory of natural selection does not in fact predict gradual change, but rather something resembling punctuated equilibrium. There aren't any valid computer simulations of biological reality. And genetics & molecular biology are no friends of evolutionists.Joseph
August 28, 2006
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What experiments were performed or observations were made to confirm the atheist dogma hypothesis that everything descended from one or a few common ancestors by chance instead of descending by design?
Nobody does experiments or observations based on ID. Not biologists, not ID advocates, not even the Discovery Institute, which clearly has the funds to support experimentation—if they could think of anything to do—and which periodically issues optimistic predictions about the expected future achievements of ID-based science, which still have failed to materialize. The reason nobody does any experiments is that ID is too vague to make any definitive predictions. Basically, all the ID crowd is willing to commit to is that something, sometime, designed something biological. The power of a theory to drive scientific research derives from its specificity—from the potential for an experimental or observational outcome which the theory cannot explain, and which potentially could disprove the theory. I cannot imagine, even in principle, any conceivable observation that would be inconsistent with some sort of variant of ID. Evolutionary theory, on the other hand, is rich with predictions. It makes quantitative predictions about the degree of genetic homology between species; it makes predictions about the outcome of computer simulations of natural selection; it makes predictions about genetic change and speciation in the wild. All of these predictions, can be, and are being tested. It is amazing that a theory which predates molecular genetics or modern computers continues to stand up to tests by methods that Darwin could not even have conceived of.trrll
August 28, 2006
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Are you aware of the findings from paleontology? Essentially what they have found was no gradual change but sudden appearance and stasis until extinction. That falsifies Darwin’s ideas in Darwin’s own words.
Yes, Darwin was clearly wrong about gradualism, and in hindsight this seems to have been little more than a prejudice of the times. Of course, Darwin did not have the benefit of modern computer simulations that have established that the theory of natural selection does not in fact predict gradual change, but rather something resembling punctuated equilibrium. Here, we see once again the (to a scientist) bizarre ID obsession with Darwin, as if modern evolutionary theory would somehow collapse if Darwin could be shown to be wrong about something. As I've noted previously, it seems to me that this reflects the fundamentally religious outlook of so many in the ID camp. In religion, of course, the holy books and the prophets are key; undermine them, and you undermine the religion. But however much the ID crowd would like to think of modern evolutionary theory as part of a religion called "Darwinism," Darwin has very little to do with the modern acceptance of evolutionary theory. PZ Meyers does a nice job of expressing what scientists think about Darwin's importance to modern evolutionary theory:
Another feature of Wells’s book, and creationists in general, is the obsession with Charles Darwin. I like the guy, I think he was brilliant, and it was his insights that launched modern evolutionary biology. But come on—he’s been dead for 124 years. He didn’t have all the tools we do now: no genetics, no molecular biology. Science has moved on well beyond Darwin’s day, but not for the creationists, who still think they can whimper and whine about errors in a book almost 150 years old and thereby dent work that nowadays depends in large part on molecular and genetic and population genetics…fields that didn’t even exist for Charles!
trrll
August 28, 2006
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NB: Was Edward Blyth a creationist? If his writings offer any insight he was a Creationist. It would be wise to go by Blyth's own words than to listen to talk origins. Perhaps he became a "friend" so that Darwin would pay him for taking his idea. Did Blyth not see the ramifications or did he just not have the funds to further the idea? Or maybe he didn't think it needed further development.Joseph
August 28, 2006
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Zachriel, Are you aware of the findings from paleontology? Essentially what they have found was no gradual change but sudden appearance and stasis until extinction. That falsifies Darwin's ideas in Darwin's own words. Do you want to debate the stasis finding? You won't get very far because there is no evidence to contradict it and it is one of the major findings of paleontology. Given that and your quote of Darwin what do you say about neo Darwinism? As far as morphological change, I suggest you switch threads to go to John Davison's thread on his ideas. The link is https://uncommondescent.com/index.php/archives/1522 and is just a couple of threads above this. He essentially said there has not been any major evolution for millions of years and none is going on right now. Challenge him and see where it leads. Darwin observed variation and made gross errors when he assumed it was evidence of macro evolution. Nothing that Darwin observed is now considered evidence for macro evolution. The most marvelous example of this is Darwin's finches. Keep trying. Eventually you will start to understand our point of view and why no one has refuted it yet.jerry
August 28, 2006
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Zachriel: "Did you know that the measured rate of morphological change in extant life is greater than or equal to the observed rate of morphological change in the fossil record?" Let's see, are you saying that the morphological change in extent life is greater than the observable rateo of moprphological change in the fossil record during the 10 million years at the beginning of the cambrian?bFast
August 28, 2006
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jerry: "Don’t you know that micro evolution is very important for biological processes but trivial as far as evolution is concerned?" Did you know that the measured rate of morphological change in extant life is greater than or equal to the observed rate of morphological change in the fossil record? This is a falsifiable prediction of the Theory of Evolution. (Reznick 1997, Gingerich 1983) jerry: "Darwin had no idea about micro evolution since the concept had not yet been developed." Darwin: LET us now see whether the several facts and laws relating to the geological succession of organic beings accord best with the common view of the immutability of species, or with that of their slow and gradual modification, through variation and natural selection. jerry: "Darwin’s observations on the Beagle were only of micro evolution..." Darwin couldn't observe microevolutionary processes. He inferred it from macroscopic variation, just as Blyth inferred the common descent of domesticated animals. Microevolution *explains* the observed properties of extant life and the succession of fossil life.Zachriel
August 28, 2006
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Was Edward Blyth a creationist? As it reads in talk.origins FAQ by John Wilkins: "As de Beer says, it is unlikely that Darwin was indebted to him if his views were so opposed to Darwin's6. Darwin had read Blyth, but not until after his own formulation, and Blyth later became a valued and constant correspondent of Darwin's. If he felt that Darwin had, as Eiseley claimed, plagiarised natural selection from him, he would not have become such a strong friend and supporter of Darwinian evolution. " (source: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/precursors/precursnatsel.html ) Edward Blyth apparently supported Darwinism. Another source seems to confirm this: "All of this is largely forgotten today, and instead he is best known for his early (1835) recognition of some of the principles of natural selection--made not only long before Darwin and Wallace went to print, but even before the former first came up with the concept. Blyth, however, did not see the ramifications of the principle (nor did anyone else), and did little to develop his thoughts any further. Later he became one of the first to embrace Darwinism, and was a vocal supporter for the remainder of his years." (source: http://www.wku.edu/~smithch/chronob/BLYT1810.htm )Northern Breeze
August 28, 2006
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Zachriel, I wrote “His ideas along with genetics explain a lot of micro evolution (neo Darwinism).” You wrote "Which is very interesting, because Darwin couldn’t observe micro evolutionary processes. He inferred them from the evidence in biological structures. Only in modern times has Darwin’s prediction of microevolution been confirmed." Don't you know that micro evolution is very important for biological processes but trivial as far as evolution is concerned? What we are talking about on this site is evolution. Darwin had no idea about micro evolution since the concept had not yet been developed. So I am glad you agree that as far as evolution is concerned Darwin had only trivial effects. Obviously Darwin had a greater effect, essentially to mislead science for 150 years with his grandiose claims just as Marx and Freud have led hundreds of millions down the garden path. Darwin's observations on the Beagle were only of micro evolution and he made a mis-guided effort to extrapolate to much more complex processes and that a large part of the scientific community bought his bogus predictions hook line and sinker. They still do with no evidence. What does that say about modern science? Are you one of those who bought into his bogus claims?jerry
August 28, 2006
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The chance worshipper narrative description of evolution won't die as long as the tale continues to enjoy its exclusive presentation by authority figures as the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth to impressionable young minds in public school science classrooms. We really have to win the political war so our side can get a fair hearing. The chance worshippers know they are doomed if chance evolution can be questioned in public school. They therefore abandon scientific arguments and head straight to federal court to make sure their argument is the only one heard. That's not just intellectual dishonesty. It's despicable. Abusing the constitution to further atheist dogma infuriates me even though I'm a so-called weak atheist (agnostic) myself. I took the following oath upon joining the USMC some 30 years ago and there's no time limit in it. It obliges me to continue fighting domestic abusers of the plain meaning of the constitution. I, David Springer, do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.DaveScot
August 28, 2006
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What Dave said. Sorry for the cross-post Dave.Charlie
August 28, 2006
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So we know that anything empirical, anything observable or remotely testable, about descent with variation was already well-established long before Darwin. Microevolution, then, as now, was accepted by scientists of any variety of metaphysical beliefs. No predictions of microevolution could then possibly be seen to be confirmation of a 'blind watchmaker' Darwinian theory. All Darwin did then was add on the completely unobserved, untestable, metaphysically and philosophically popular idea that nature created itself from nothing and give it the veneer of scientific credibility. His contribution to the plan remains today as the part for which the so-called 'mountains of evidence' provide no support and the evidence that natural selection can act as a creative force in upward evolution is still wanting.Charlie
August 28, 2006
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The so-called mountains of evidence out there is for descent from one or a few common ancestors. I'm not sure I'd call it mountains but I would call it adequate to call common descent the best explanation. This is all the chance worshippers ever offer is evidence for common descent. The problem is they don't use it to argue against intelligent design. Intelligent design is compatible with common descent. They use it to argue against creation as described in the Holy Bible which they conflate with intelligent design. That my dear friends is called intellectual dishonesty. It's a sure sign of a weak mind clinging to an indefensible argument. It's no wonder that 50% of U.S. adults reject evolution by chance. The wonder is that it isn't 100%. If the chance worshippers hadn't been so successful in conflating ID with religion so they can play the establishment clause card whenever we try to broach the truth to kids in public schools I have little doubt that the percentage who believe the chance evolution narrative would dwindle down to the 10% (positive atheists) who are its core support.DaveScot
August 28, 2006
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trll What experiments were performed or observations were made to confirm the atheist dogma hypothesis that everything descended from one or a few common ancestors by chance instead of descending by design?DaveScot
August 28, 2006
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And just how would one validate the premise that all of life’s diversity owed its collective common ancestry to some unknown population(s) of single-celled organisms (that just happened to have the ability to asexually reproduce and metabolize)- all via some blind watchmaker-type process? trrll: As with any theory, by deriving predictions and testing them by experiment and observation. In this case, the theory makes quite detailed predictions about the degree of sequence similarity of genes and proteins of different organisms. With the advent of gene sequencing, it has become possible to test these predictions. So far, they are holding up remarkably well. That is all well and good IF IT WERE TRUE. However we have been told that there is NO WAY to predict what would be selected for at any point in time. And we know we can't predict what mutations will occur. We also know that an organism is NOT the sum of its genes. Nor does DNA make an organism what it is. Also nothing that you posted would support any particular mechansim. Do we even know if such transformations are even possible? No (ie the transformations required if all of life’s diversity owed its collective common ancestry to some unknown population(s)? No. We can't even test the premise. Heck how can one validate the bacterial flagellum “evolved” (via some blind watchmaker type process) in a population in which not one bacterium had a flagellum? trrll: By developing hypotheses regarding the evolutionary intermediates that yield testable predictions regarding sequence and structural homologies (see Matzke for one recent model and a review of earlier models. What "evolutionary intermediates"? And how would they demonstrate a mechanism? And if Matzke's "model" was so good why wasn't he an "expert" witness? Could it be due to the fact his model is junk? Most likely. And homology was refuted as evidence for CD decades ago. So why would anyone still try to use it? trrll: Well, duh. Dr. Forrest was called as an expert on the historical development of Creationism into Intelligent Design, not as an expert on differentiating the views of Drs. Behe and Miller. Well she messed up on that. One has to wonder how she came to be an "expert" on anything. Real educated people can trace ID back to Aristotle and perhaps even before.Joseph
August 28, 2006
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Babs hasn’t one bit of objective evidence to separate Behe from MIller in labeling one a creationist and the other not.
Well, duh. Dr. Forrest was called as an expert on the historical development of Creationism into Intelligent Design, not as an expert on differentiating the views of Drs. Behe and Miller.trrll
August 28, 2006
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And just how would one validate the premise that all of life’s diversity owed its collective common ancestry to some unknown population(s) of single-celled organisms (that just happened to have the ability to asexually reproduce and metabolize)- all via some blind watchmaker-type process?
As with any theory, by deriving predictions and testing them by experiment and observation. In this case, the theory makes quite detailed predictions about the degree of sequence similarity of genes and proteins of different organisms. With the advent of gene sequencing, it has become possible to test these predictions. So far, they are holding up remarkably well.
Heck how can one validate the bacterial flagellum “evolved” (via some blind watchmaker type process) in a population in which not one bacterium had a flagellum?
By developing hypotheses regarding the evolutionary intermediates that yield testable predictions regarding sequence and structural homologies (see Matzke for one recent model and a review of earlier models.trrll
August 28, 2006
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Joseph: "And just how would one validate the premise that all of life’s diversity owed its collective common ancestry to some unknown population(s) of single-celled organisms (that just happened to have the ability to asexually reproduce and metabolize)- all via some blind watchmaker-type process?" Start with the evidence for the common ancestry of vertebrates; the nested hierarchy in time of fossils, the nested hierarchy of extant life, the nested hierarchy of genomes. Do you have a problem with this limited claim of common descent? If you do, then there is no purpose in discussing the posited mechanisms of this evolutionary divergence. If not, then we can proceed to discuss plausible mechanisms.Zachriel
August 28, 2006
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Here is an interesting article: EDWARD BLYTH AND NATURAL SELECTION Francis Hitching, an evolutionist, wrote: "Darwin took everything Blyth had said and used it to support an opposite conclusion"Joseph
August 28, 2006
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Zachriel: But, as trrll noted, the origins of the Theory of Evolution has no relevance to its validity. And just how would one validate the premise that all of life's diversity owed its collective common ancestry to some unknown population(s) of single-celled organisms (that just happened to have the ability to asexually reproduce and metabolize)- all via some blind watchmaker-type process? Heck how can one validate the bacterial flagellum "evolved" (via some blind watchmaker type process) in a population in which not one bacterium had a flagellum?Joseph
August 28, 2006
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Zachriel writes: But, as trrll noted, the origins of the Theory of Evolution has no relevance to its validity. I love the smell of double standards in the morning!DaveScot
August 28, 2006
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jerry: "His ideas along with genetics explain a lot of micro evolution (neo Darwinism)." Which is very interesting, because Darwin couldn't observe microevolutionary processes. He inferred them from the evidence in biological structures. Only in modern times has Darwin's prediction of microevolution been confirmed. Charlie: "You have misread the letter by Darwin to Hooker." Quite possibly. Charlie: "It traces the influences on Darwin’s work by many writers of the Romantic Period, including poets, sociologists and philosophers as well as fellow naturalists." These ideas permeated society. Mary Shelley even cites (and misinterprets) the experiments of Dr. [Erasmus] Darwin in the Introduction to Frankenstein; or, the Modern Prometheus. Scientific explanations concerning the nature of life were all the rage among the Romantics and they eagerly anticipated every new scientific finding on the subject. Shelley's Frankenstein delves into the very heart of this controversy even before Origin of Species.Zachriel
August 28, 2006
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The piece referenced above to solve the questions of Darwin's letter to Hooker is very interesting and anyone interested in this matter should give it a look. It traces the influences on Darwin's work by many writers of the Romantic Period, including poets, sociologists and philosophers as well as fellow naturalists. http://www.georgiasouthern.edu/~jzarrell/Thesis.html The notes to end chapter one include:
10 Blyth’s essay was entitled An Attempt to Classify the "Varieties" of Animals, with Observations on the Marked Seasonal and Other Changes Which Naturally Take Place in Various British Species, and Which Do Not Constitute Varieties. Darwin has been accused of plagiarizing Blyth’s idea, which correspondence has shown he had read. The accusation has fallen, for the most part, on deaf ears. (See Loren Eisley’s Darwin and the Mysterious Mr. X. New York: Dutton, 1979.) 11 Despite the similarities, Blyth came to completely different conclusions than Darwin did.... It is most curious how Blyth interprets his observations of nature in terms of a Creator, while Darwin uses the same phenomena to dismiss that Creator. This is further evidence that Darwin’s rhetoric about attending to “facts” was a red herring. The issue was never over facts but the proper interpretation of those facts. Darwin’s comments in a letter to Joseph Hooker are instructive in this regard: “How differently people view the same subject, for I look at insular Floras … as leading to an opposite view to yours” (Correspondence 3.89).
True to this day. The paper cited reveals that evolutionary thought had permeated the consciousness of the culture and that it was a popular philosophy just awaiting a suitable interpretation of the evidence.Charlie
August 28, 2006
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We have a Darwin Day? I didn’t know that! Why didn’t anybody ever tell me? Are there parades? Certainly, as a biologist, it seems to me that I deserve a day off from work on Darwin Day! But I’d definitely be in favor of a Newton Day, a Faraday Day, and a Maxwell Day, as well. Especially if there are parades.
We do have a holiday on Newton day: it's on his birthday. Most places don't do parades though, I'm afraid. Sal - A lot of the material you're finding about Darwin's antecedents is well known: if you're interested, I would heartily recommend reading Bowler's book. Darwin took a lot of ideas from his contemporaries, and synthesised them into his Big Theory. The point is that no one else had made the synthesis: they had all seen little bits of the picture, but it was Darwin (and Russell!) who put it all together. BobBob OH
August 27, 2006
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