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WD400 Disputes Dobzhansky

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Many Darwinists are fond of quoting Theodosius Dobzhansky who wrote “nothing in biology makes sense except in light of evolution.”

It is good to know there are folks like wd400 — himself an evolutionary biologist — who believe in modern evolutionary theory but acknowledge that biologists can get along perfectly well without even understanding evolution, much less depending on it as Dobzhansky would have had us believe.

In a comment to a prior post wd400 writes:

Unfortunately a lot of molecular biologists (Collins included) don’t understand much about evolution.

Here is a partial list of the awards won by Dr. Collins (per his Wiki entry):

While leading the National Human Genome Research Institute, Collins was elected to the Institute of Medicine and the National Academy of Sciences. He was a Kilby International Awards recipient in 1993, and he received the Biotechnology Heritage Award with J. Craig Venter in 2001.[45][46] He received the William Allan Award from the American Society of Human Genetics in 2005. In 2007, he was presented with the Presidential Medal of Freedom.[47] In 2008, he was awarded the Inamori Ethics Prize[48] and National Medal of Science.[49] In the same year, Collins won the Trotter Prize where he delivered a lecture called “The Language of God”.  Collins and Venter shared the “Biography of the Year” title from A&E Network in 2000.[50] In 2005, Collins and Venter were honored as two of “America’s Best Leaders” by U.S. News & World Report and the Harvard University Center for Public Leadership.[51]  Collins received the Albany Medical Center Prize in 2010 and the Pro Bono Humanum Award of the Galien Foundation in 2012.[

So, evolutionary biologist wd400 acknowledges that “a lot of molecular biologists,” including one of the world’s leading biologists, former Director of the National Institutes of Health and leader of the human genome project Francis Collins, can do their jobs perfectly well without even understanding evolution, far less depending on it.

Good for you wd.  Good for you.

I also admire this little bon mot from wd:

[Richard] Dawkins was a great popularizer (before he bacame a full time internet troll)

UPDATE:

To be perfectly fair I should point out that in the comment thread below, wd400 demurs to the assertions raised in this post.  In fact, “demur” does not quite capture his reaction, for it was far from demure.*  When confronted with the logical conclusions that ineluctably proceed from his own statement, he did the verbal equivalent of this:

_____________
*There is nothing like a fine play on words; of course that was nothing like a fine play on words. 🙂

Comments
Barry Arrington: The belief that he should run and hide from the tiger leads to non-successful strategy? That wasn't your claim. Your claim was that the belief was the "tiger is very nice and likes to play hide and seek; I will join the game and go hide". When someone tires of playing hide and seek, they stop hiding and yell "Olly olly oxen free!" Furthermore, when you see what the tiger did to your mate, you should be able to figure out that the tiger isn't playing. Barry Arrington: See what you did there? You could not answer the hypothetical. So you changed it. See what you did there? You could not support your hypothetical. So you changed it.Zachriel
November 14, 2015
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Laws of Nature + chance quantum fluctuations = Loaded DiceMung
November 13, 2015
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Robert ByersNovember 13, 2015 at 12:31 am "AMEN> Evolution is not true. Actual biology research therefore couldn’t be relevant to a false idea. It isn’t. Biology has nothing to do with history of how biology came to be. Its another subject. One is about here and now matter and mechanics and the other about process of how matter/mechanics came to be before it did. Evo bio is about the invisable past events. not present events. Many creationists study and love biology. Nothing to do with evolution. History of biology does matter but its history." Robert, The tax mooching just so story telling evolutionary biologists aka moth and butterfly collectors are not gonna give up though, They have to feed their families too.Jack Jones
November 13, 2015
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Zach,
The belief leads to a non-successful survival strategy.
The belief that he should run and hide from the tiger leads to non-successful strategy? See what you did there? You could not answer the hypothetical. So you changed it. If I was unable to respond to my opponent's hypothetical and instead had to change the hypothetical and pretend I was responding to it in order to maintain my point, I am pretty sure it would bother me. It might even lead me to reevaluate my position. Does it bother you? Will you reevaluate your position?Barry Arrington
November 13, 2015
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Barry,
If it lasts long enough for the caveman to reproduce, it has lasted long enough. GUN, this is really elementary stuff. I am surprised you are disputing it. Besides, you are missing the point. The caveman did not get lucky. He did the right thing for the wrong reason. It is doing the “right thing” that selection selects for. The reason the organism did the “right thing” is invisible to selection.
It’s not just luck - it’s preposterous luck. Someone just happening to to do the right behavior, for reasons that have nothing to do with reality, time after time, every day, for every creature and danger he encounters, year after year… well, you get the picture. You’re missing the point. If you’re going to argue that “reasonably accurate knowledge of the world” isn’t relevant to survival and evolution, than we’re not discussing a one off thing. If you are discussing a one off thing, than you’re likely describing all of us. (After all, we’ve probably all, without realizing it, encountered dangerous situations at one point or another and just happened to do the right thing for the wrong reason and luckily survived. There have probably been several times, at least, that I could have been a youtube star if someone was filming.) What you’re arguing is akin to claiming that a real life actual Mr. Bean or Mr. Magoo is just as likely to survive and breed as someone basing his actions on reasonably accurate knowledge of his surroundings. Yes, I absolutely do dispute that. Perhaps the reason that the caveman doing the “right thing” is invisible to selection - but the odds of the caveman doing the right thing are astronomically less without accurate knowledge of the world. If you dispute that, you may as well dispute that a blind and deaf caveman is just as likely to survive as a caveman with five good working senses.goodusername
November 13, 2015
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Ok, so in that case the caveman got lucky. But how long is such luck going to last?
If evolutionism is true, it's all luck.Virgil Cain
November 13, 2015
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Zachriel:
Human reproduction takes close to twenty years.
BWWWWAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Only if you don't know what you are doingVirgil Cain
November 13, 2015
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Barry Arrington: If it lasts long enough for the caveman to reproduce, it has lasted long enough. Human reproduction takes close to twenty years. The tiger will have a meal or two within that time span.Zachriel
November 13, 2015
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Barry Arrington: Running and hiding leads to life. The claim is that the belief that tigers just want to play results in a successful survival strategy. It does not. When the game ends, the tiger is still hungry. Watching someone getting eaten by the tiger is also a big clue. The tiger isn't playing. Barry Arrington: Again, motive is invisible to natural selection. The belief leads to a non-successful survival strategy.Zachriel
November 13, 2015
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Zach
That position would probably lead to death.
You are missing the point. Running and hiding leads to life. The caveman's wrong conclusions led him to do the thing that caused him to survive. Doing the thing that causes you to survive will not "probably lead to death." What an odd thing to say. Again, motive is invisible to natural selection. The only thing that is visible is what the organism actually does. And if he does the thing for the wrong reason, selection does not care. He will survive. For someone who defends materialist evolution all the time, you don't seem to understand some fairly basic principles. That would bother me. Does it bother you?Barry Arrington
November 13, 2015
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GUN asks:
Ok, so in that case the caveman got lucky. But how long is such luck going to last?
If it lasts long enough for the caveman to reproduce, it has lasted long enough. GUN, this is really elementary stuff. I am surprised you are disputing it. Besides, you are missing the point. The caveman did not get lucky. He did the right thing for the wrong reason. It is doing the "right thing" that selection selects for. The reason the organism did the "right thing" is invisible to selection. Barry Arrington
November 13, 2015
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Barry,
What is important is that the caveman survived, which is possible (under the hypothetical) even though he was wrong about the tiger being nice and he was wrong about what he was doing (playing a game).
Ok, so in that case the caveman got lucky. But how long is such luck going to last? Perhaps by chance he’ll choose to hide from every dangerous animal, and happen to hunt every animal that’s relatively safe to hunt, and bumble through life just getting lucky, and have children who manage to do the same (as if luck is hereditable). Does that sound realistic? You may as well make the argument that vision is worthless because you can just happen to step around every obstacle by chance and happen to reach out for food when food happens to be in reach, etc. After all, if accurate knowledge of the world is irrelevant than why have any senses (vision, hearing, touch, etc) at all? I don’t think Mr. Bean and Mr. Magoo would manage too well IRL.goodusername
November 13, 2015
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Barry Arrington: Say a caveman gets the answer wrong (that tiger is very nice and likes to play hide and seek; I will join the game and go hide) and survives even though he was wrong. That position would probably lead to death. Eventually play ends, but the tiger would still be hungry. Furthermore, you have only to watch what happened to your friend who liked to play with the tiger to realize the existential danger. kairosfocus: if we are not responsibly and rationally free, the whole project of the life of the mind collapses. That's nice, but not a scientific explanation.Zachriel
November 13, 2015
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Z, if we are not responsibly and rationally free, the whole project of the life of the mind collapses. And that includes the importance of seeking, being free to seek and free to assess whether thoughts and claims say of what is that it is, and of what is not, that it is not. A worldview that radically undermines rationality and responsibility undermines freedom and the way it itself was arrived at, ending in self referential incoherence. But then Haldane already pointed that out in 1927. KFkairosfocus
November 13, 2015
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Zach:
Nonetheless, reasonably accurate knowledge of the world is reproductively advantageous.
Says you. Say a caveman gets the answer wrong (that tiger is very nice and likes to play hide and seek; I will join the game and go hide) and survives even though he was wrong. What is important is that the caveman survived, which is possible (under the hypothetical) even though he was wrong about the tiger being nice and he was wrong about what he was doing (playing a game). It is easy to make up stories about how being able to detect truth is advantageous for selection. It is just as easy to make up stories about how it is not. The point you are missing is that evolutionary theory does not "predict" which characteristics are selectively advantageous except in retrospect, when we say the organisms that happened to survive were most fit.Barry Arrington
November 13, 2015
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"39 Andre I find it fascinating that just about every single NS & RM, Neutral & Drift garden variety evolutionist all ignore the established law of bio-genesis when they make their molecules to man done so by luck, chance and time claim. Why is that?" I made the law of biogenesis argument over on The blog sandwalk, BTW... Funny for somebody who hates being called a Darwinist to call his blog sandwalk after the path behind Darwin's home and put on the side of the page "The Sandwalk is the path behind the home of Charles Darwin where he used to walk every day, thinking about science. You can see the path in the woods in the upper left-hand corner of this image." He also says "Most of us know that Charles Darwin was the greatest scientist who ever lived " http://sandwalk.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/was-newton-greatest-scientist-who-ever.html Moran thinks he was so great but seems to take being called a Darwinist as an insult. Strange person that Moran.Jack Jones
November 13, 2015
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kairosfocus: Science is not the be all and end all of reality, rationality and knowledge. No, it's not. So you agree there is no scientific explanation for the origin of consciousness, as noted above. kairosfocus: Philosopher John Gray writes, “If Darwin’s theory of natural selection is true,… the human mind serves evolutionary success, not truth.” What is the contradiction in that statement? Humans don't have perfect knowledge of the world, the "truth". Rather, sensation is fraught with perceptual limitations and distortions. Nonetheless, reasonably accurate knowledge of the world is reproductively advantageous. One advantage humans have is abstraction, which allows the breaking down of complexes into simpler components (including the use of instrumentation), and for the sharing of these abstractions, resulting in greater accuracy and assurance.Zachriel
November 13, 2015
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PS: Let me amplify the challenge:
A major way to test a philosophy or worldview is to ask: Is it logically consistent? Internal contradictions are fatal to any worldview because contradictory statements are necessarily false. “This circle is square” is contradictory, so it has to be false. An especially damaging form of contradiction is self-referential absurdity — which means a theory sets up a definition of truth that it itself fails to meet. Therefore it refutes itself . . . . An example of self-referential absurdity is a theory called evolutionary epistemology, a naturalistic approach that applies evolution to the process of knowing. The theory proposes that the human mind is a product of natural selection. The implication is that the ideas in our minds were selected for their survival value, not for their truth-value. But what if we apply that theory to itself? Then it, too, was selected for survival, not truth — which discredits its own claim to truth. Evolutionary epistemology commits suicide. Astonishingly, many prominent thinkers have embraced the theory without detecting the logical contradiction. Philosopher John Gray writes, “If Darwin’s theory of natural selection is true,… the human mind serves evolutionary success, not truth.” What is the contradiction in that statement? Gray has essentially said, if Darwin’s theory is true, then it “serves evolutionary success, not truth.” In other words, if Darwin’s theory is true, then it is not true. Self-referential absurdity is akin to the well-known liar’s paradox: “This statement is a lie.” If the statement is true, then (as it says) it is not true, but a lie. Another example comes from Francis Crick. In The Astonishing Hypothesis, he writes, “Our highly developed brains, after all, were not evolved under the pressure of discovering scientific truths but only to enable us to be clever enough to survive.” But that means Crick’s own theory is not a “scientific truth.” Applied to itself, the theory commits suicide. Of course, the sheer pressure to survive is likely to produce some correct ideas. A zebra that thinks lions are friendly will not live long. But false ideas may be useful for survival. Evolutionists admit as much: Eric Baum says, “Sometimes you are more likely to survive and propagate if you believe a falsehood than if you believe the truth.” Steven Pinker writes, “Our brains were shaped for fitness, not for truth. Sometimes the truth is adaptive, but sometimes it is not.” The upshot is that survival is no guarantee of truth. If survival is the only standard, we can never know which ideas are true and which are adaptive but false. To make the dilemma even more puzzling, evolutionists tell us that natural selection has produced all sorts of false concepts in the human mind. Many evolutionary materialists maintain that free will is an illusion, consciousness is an illusion, even our sense of self is an illusion — and that all these false ideas were selected for their survival value.
[--> that is, responsible, rational freedom is undermined. Cf here William Provine in his 1998 U Tenn Darwin Day keynote:
Naturalistic evolution has clear consequences that Charles Darwin understood perfectly. 1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent . . . . The first 4 implications are so obvious to modern naturalistic evolutionists that I will spend little time defending them. Human free will, however, is another matter. Even evolutionists have trouble swallowing that implication. I will argue that humans are locally determined systems that make choices. They have, however, no free will [--> without responsible freedom, mind, reason and morality alike disintegrate into grand delusion, hence self-referential incoherence and self-refutation. But that does not make such fallacies any less effective in the hands of clever manipulators] . . . [1998 Darwin Day Keynote Address, U of Tenn -- and yes, that is significant i/l/o the Scopes Trial, 1925]
So how can we know whether the theory of evolution itself is one of those false ideas? The theory undercuts itself. A few thinkers, to their credit, recognize the problem. Literary critic Leon Wieseltier writes, “If reason is a product of natural selection, then how much confidence can we have in a rational argument for natural selection? … Evolutionary biology cannot invoke the power of reason even as it destroys it.” On a similar note, philosopher Thomas Nagel asks, “Is the [evolutionary] hypothesis really compatible with the continued confidence in reason as a source of knowledge?” His answer is no: “I have to be able to believe … that I follow the rules of logic because they are correct — not merely because I am biologically programmed to do so.” Hence, “insofar as the evolutionary hypothesis itself depends on reason, it would be self-undermining.” [ENV excerpt, Finding Truth (David C. Cook, 2015) by Nancy Pearcey.]
kairosfocus
November 13, 2015
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Zachriel, without this fact in hand, of self aware responsibly and rationally significantly free selves, science is impossible as is any rational discourse. This is a self evident truth. Science is not the be all and end all of reality, rationality and knowledge. It is evolutionary materialist scientism -- already in trouble on the scientism and demonstrably further in trouble on the self referential incoherence side (through this very issue) -- that critically depends on the project of extracting an "I" scientifically from blind watchmaker chance and necessity in a wholly material world. That burden, which you admit has not been met, has not been met and in fact it is doubtful -- to be as restrained as possible -- that it can be met, due to the category issues involved. Further to this, the attempt to reduce ground and consequent insight on free and responsible rational contemplation to blindly mechanical cause-effect chains due to blind chance and necessity, is arguably an attempt to get north by heading due west. KFkairosfocus
November 13, 2015
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kairosfocus: Its not just nobody knows HOW (but it must be), the issue is of a radically, categorically distinct order of reality that is our first fact: conscious rationality. That's nice, but doesn't constitute a scientific and testable explanation of how an "I" occurs.Zachriel
November 13, 2015
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BA, I believe he needed an opportunity/challenge to address the matter, and in any case the facts of balance on the merits needed to be established, given the now obviously false impression of great objective facts and rationality on the part of the materialist magisterium. KFkairosfocus
November 12, 2015
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AMEN> Evolution is not true. Actual biology research therefore couldn't be relevant to a false idea. It isn't. Biology has nothing to do with history of how biology came to be. Its another subject. One is about here and now matter and mechanics and the other about process of how matter/mechanics came to be before it did. Evo bio is about the invisable past events. not present events. Many creationists study and love biology. Nothing to do with evolution. History of biology does matter but its history.Robert Byers
November 12, 2015
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I find it fascinating that just about every single NS & RM, Neutral & Drift garden variety evolutionist all ignore the established law of bio-genesis when they make their molecules to man done so by luck, chance and time claim. Why is that?Andre
November 12, 2015
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KF, Argument deals with evidence and logic. Zach is not interested in evidence and logic. He worships at the alter of materialism, and if you try to drag him away from that alter with reason, he puts his fingers in his ears and goes into full "Miracle Max Mode" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEBoXET-9Yk His faith is very strong.Barry Arrington
November 12, 2015
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PS: Those who know of what happened with German culture from 1800 - 1945 should ponder Heinie's 1831 prophecy in the context of the worldwide trends of our civilisation:
Christianity — and that is its greatest merit — has somewhat mitigated that brutal German love of war, but it could not destroy it. Should that subduing talisman, the cross, be shattered [--> the Swastika, visually, is a twisted, broken cross . . do not overlook the obvious], the frenzied madness of the ancient warriors, that insane Berserk rage of which Nordic bards have spoken and sung so often, will once more burst into flame [--> an irrational battle- and blood- lust]. … The old stone gods will then rise from long ruins and rub the dust of a thousand years from their eyes, and Thor will leap to life with his giant hammer and smash the Gothic cathedrals. … … Do not smile at my advice — the advice of a dreamer who warns you against Kantians, Fichteans, and philosophers of nature. Do not smile at the visionary who anticipates the same revolution in the realm of the visible as has taken place in the spiritual. Thought precedes action as lightning precedes thunder. German thunder … comes rolling somewhat slowly, but … its crash … will be unlike anything before in the history of the world. … At that uproar the eagles of the air will drop dead [--> cf. air warfare, symbol of the USA], and lions in farthest Africa [--> the lion is a key symbol of Britain, cf. also the North African campaigns] will draw in their tails and slink away. … A play will be performed in Germany which will make the French Revolution look like an innocent idyll. [Religion and Philosophy in Germany, 1831]
kairosfocus
November 12, 2015
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Z, Its not just nobody knows HOW (but it must be), the issue is of a radically, categorically distinct order of reality that is our first fact: conscious rationality. A big clue that evolutionary materialism or same plus poof magic emergence etc, are in deep self-referential incoherence as just pointed out via Pearcey and Provine, with others up above. This is break-point for any worldview rooted in matter-energy interacting blindly by chance and necessity. But I am confident there is no intent to take such seriously so long as it is thought that the lab coat clad magisterium holds institutional high ground and can call up career busting barrages administratively and agit prop carpet bombing through the captive media. Hence, we are back at the domineering, parasitical, self-referentially incoherent ideology driving a grand march of suicidal folly for our civilisation. KFkairosfocus
November 12, 2015
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kairosfocus: ya gotta SHOW the emergence mon, not merely assert it. Um, the assertion is that no one knows how "unified 'I' from a collection of particles interacting under quantum laws" occurs.Zachriel
November 12, 2015
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Z, ya gotta SHOW the emergence mon, not merely assert it. There is not a linear extension from Na + Cl --> NaCl to conscious rational, responsible freedom. But such freedom is actually a necessary condition of having a real argument. And yes, that pesky self referential incoherence of evolutionary materialism is popping up again. Its not just nobody knows HOW (but it must be), the issue is of a radically, categorically distinct order of reality that is our first fact: conscious rationality. KFkairosfocus
November 12, 2015
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kairosfocus: how — in sufficient detail to show the soundness — do you get a self-aware, conscious, responsibly free and warranting thus knowing unified “I” from a collection of particles interacting under quantum laws etc No one knows. kairosfocus: Or are you simply asserting materialism, dressing it up in a lab coat and demanding that we kowtow? We didn't assert materialism, merely pointed out that most naturalists don't have a problem with identifying objects above and beyond fermions and bosons.Zachriel
November 12, 2015
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BA, I think that may be back on the cards, and yes there was a project in I think the 1870's which failed. Oddly one of my grandfathers worked on the Panama Canal. He was with the mosquito inspectors. KFkairosfocus
November 12, 2015
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