Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Whale Evolution? Darwinist ‘Trawlers’ Have Every Reason To Be Concerned

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

“Of all whale species, by far the noisiest, chattiest, most exuberant, and most imaginative is the humpback. It is the noisemaker and the Caruso of the deep, now grating like an old hinge, now as melodious as an operatic tenor” (1). These were the words of the late oceanographer Jacques Cousteau in his epic volume Whales, originally written in French under the more descriptive title La Planete Des Baleines. The male humpback in particular had been a source of fascination for Cousteau’s exploration team precisely because of its exquisite song-making capabilities. Star Trek aficionados will no doubt remember the long-range distress calls of these ocean-faring giants in the movie blockbuster The Voyage Home.

Humpbacks can be heard for hundreds or even thousands of kilometers creating discernible noise sequences or ‘themes’ that can last as long as 20-30 hours (1,2). The available repertoire of vocalizations requires that “bursts of air” be channeled up from the lungs and through the trachea (3). The frequency range of these vocalizations is formidable- 8-4000 Hz (compared to 80-1300 Hz for a singing human; (4)). While certain sounds might serve to maintain contact between distant herds (2) others are clearly used to attract mates in the shallow breeding grounds of the tropics (5).

The sperm whale’s characteristic clicking has likewise been intensely studied and marine biologists have in the last decade described this creature’s ‘pneumatic sound generator’ in great detail (6). Usual clicks serve for echo location while so-called ‘coda’ clicks are used for maintaining the “complex social structure in female groups” (6). Remarkably the amount of air used to make each click is so small that even at depths of 2000 m, where the air volume is significantly reduced, sperm whales can phonate successfully (6). The mechanism of sound generation is exquisitely selective for the two modes of communication: “the marked differences between coda clicks and usual clicks are caused by differential sound propagation in the nasal complex” (6).

Other whale species are known to ‘talk to each other’: blue whales, fin whales, rights and bowheads all display the use of what has tentatively been called a rudimentary language (7). Equally captivating is the auditory apparatus that picks up these sounds (8). Unlike terrestrial mammals, whales sport freely-vibrating ossicles in the middle ear for more sensitive distance hearing:

“The bones of the middle ear, although fused to each other, are not directly connected to the rest of the skull; they are suspended from it by means of ligaments. All around them is a complex network of cavities and sinuses filled with a foamy mucus that further insulates the ear from the skull and provides yet another means by which whales filter out all but the essential sounds.”(9)

What are we to make of the evolutionary origins of these key designs? In the summer of 2009 a seminal publication in the journal Mammalian Biology provided fodder for one popular idea (10). Using the aquatic escape behavior of Bornean mouse deer as primary evidence for their claims, researchers from Indonesia and the Australian National University in Canberra proposed that whales might have descended from ancient members of the ruminant family tragulidae which today includes cattle, sheep, goats and deer (11). Local villagers have observed tragulids submerging themselves in rivers and streams for over five minutes at a time as a way of eschewing would-be predators (10).

The Australian-Indonesian publication came hot on the heels of a cladistic study that claimed to have found a whale ‘sister group’ called Indohyus – “a middle Eocene raoellid artiodactyl from Kashmir, India” (10, 12). The overarching conclusion of this earlier work was nothing short of profound:

“Our analysis identifies raoellids as the sister group to cetaceans and bridges the morphological divide that separated early cetaceans from artiodacyls.” (12)

We might therefore reasonably expect that the hearing and vocalization of modern cetaceans could be drawn into a gradual evolutionary sequence, perhaps going as far back as the land-sea transitioning mammals from which they are supposed to have been derived. But like so many evolutionary just-so stories, the devil is in the details. Indeed Darwinists admit that significant differences in the morphology of sensory organs make cetaceans unique (12).

In 2004 a group headed by professor of anatomy Hans Thewissen published what appeared to be the definitive answer on the evolution of whale hearing (13). Their ‘integrated interpretation of evolving sound transmission mechanisms’ came as a result of fossils that were collected from 35-50 million year-old deposits (13). The base specimen of their cladistic interpretation, a 50 million year old fossil of a terrestrial mammal called pakicetus, benefited from bone conduction of sound through a loosely suspended tympanic bone (13). Later aquatic mammals such as remingtoncetus and protocetus possessed large so-called mandibular fat pads that further improved bone-mediated sound transmission (13). For all three phyletic groups a terrestrial auditory structure called the external meatus allowed efficient capture of airborne sounds (13). Thewissen’s final chronological group, the basilosauroids, sported yet one further innovation- air-filled sinuses that acoustically isolated the ear from the rest of the skull (13).

The most striking omission in the above sequence, and perhaps the most important of all, is the explanation for how a fleeting mouse deer somehow adapted to the acoustic rigors of underwater living. A five minute escapade in the shallows of a river is a far cry from the mate searches that would have been so vital for an aquatic lifestyle. Pakicetus was in fact a fast-running, land-dwelling long-necked quadruped (more like a dog than a deer) that lacked any sort of sub-aquatic anatomy (14, 15). Indeed one alternative interpretation of the data is that the pakicetus middle ear structure was more consistent with what one might expect for a subterranean habitat in which the head is in direct contact with the ground (14).

While Remingtoncetus was undoubtedly a four-legged semi-aquatic mammal that had a long slender snout, small eyes and ears and an overall size perhaps no bigger than a sea otter (16, 17), the above descriptive of the origins of its auditory innovations fits more in line with what one might expect for, say, a saltationist view of life than any sort of gradual evolutionary process. The same can be said of the supposed transition from protocetus to basilosauroids. In fact the fossil evidence reveals that in remingtoncetus the foundations of the modern whale underwater auditory mechanism had already been realized (13). Ironically the most convincing set of ear transitional forms in the whale evolutionist’s armory- that of the decrease in size of the semicircular canal system of the inner ear (involved in balance) – only shows evolution bringing about small changes to already existing functional innovations (15).

Hippopotamids are of course hot favorites for the title of the closest living terrestrial relatives of whales (18, 19). Like whales, modern hippos are furnished with bone-mediated hearing and exhibit effective underwater communication (18). Still, morphology-based phylogenies to-date have yielded conflicting results and the identification of intermediates that supposedly spanned the divide between hippos and the common ancestor is controversial (20). Different analyses show anywhere between 3 and 40 million years of unrecorded evolution depending on which sister groups one chooses to grab along the way (20).

Over a decade ago one high school biology textbook asserted that there were no clear transitional fossils linking land mammals to whales (21). Such a position has been upheld by the most recent peer-reviewed literature. In fact hypotheses on the evolution of sound generation in whales and delphinids hinge upon the selective “drivers” that purportedly brought about change (eg: hunting, increased sociality, predator avoidance) while leaving out the mechanistic details of how such change took place (22, 23, 24). In contrast, the co-integrated nature of whale sound transmission, both in its vocalization and capture, has led some to the inference that intelligent rather than mindless design is at play. As one review noted:

“The anatomical structure, biological function, and way of life of whales are so distinctly different from those of terrestrial mammals that they cannot possibly have evolved from the latter by small genetic changes; aquatics require the simultaneous presence of all their complex features to survive. Perfect acoustical and other constructions are required for their serenades and way of life in the vastness of the ocean; they could only exist from a detailed preliminary plan. Employing sounds to allure their mates has another interesting feature, considering the entirety of the animal kingdom. Although each species emits sound signals that resemble signals of other species, the animals never mistake the sounds for those of other species…Harmony between sounds and sound-receiving organs likewise presupposes the…requirement of simultaneous appearance, while excluding the possibility of gradual evolution.” (8)

In short, the latest evidence on whale communication cuts deep into the fishing nets of evolutionary dogma. Darwinist trawlers have every reason to be concerned.

Literature Cited
1.Jacques Cousteau and Yves Paccalet (1986) Whales, W.H. Allen & Co, London, pp. 236-38.

2.Eduardo Mercado III (1998) Humpback Whale BioAcoustics: From Form To Function, PhD thesis, University of Hawaii, http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~emiii/diss.pdf p.16.

3. Ibid p.25.

4. Ibid p.37.

5. Planet Earth Series: Shallow Seas, Narrated by David Attenborough, BBC Video, 2008.

6. P. T. Madsen, R. Payne, N. U. Kristiansen, M. Wahlberg, I. Kerr and B. Mohl (2002) Sperm whale sound production studied with ultrasound time/depth-recording tags, The Journal of Experimental Biology, Vol 205, 1899-1906.

7. Jacques Cousteau and Yves Paccalet (1986) Whales, W.H. Allen & Co, London, p.234.

8. Balazs Hornyanszky and Istvan Tasi (2009) Nature’s IQ: Extraordinary Animal Behaviors That Defy Evolution, Torchlight Publishing, Badger, CA, pp.102-104.

9. Jacques Cousteau and Yves Paccalet (1986) Whales, W.H. Allen & Co, London, p.161.

10. Erik Meijaarda, Umilaela, GehandeSilva Wijeyeratne (2009), Aquatic escape behaviour in mouse-deer provides insight into tragulid evolution, Mammalian Biology, doi:10.1016/j.mambio.2009.05.007

11. Matt Walker (2009) Aquatic Deer And Ancient Whales, BBC Earth News, 7th July, 2009, See http://news.bbc.co.uk/earth/hi/earth_news/newsid_8137000/8137922.stm

12. J. G. M. Thewissen, Lisa Noelle Cooper, Mark T. Clementz, Sunil Bajpai & B. N. Tiwari (2007) Whales originated from aquatic artiodactyls in the Eocene epoch of India, Nature, Vol 450, pp.1190-1194.

13. Sirpa Nummela, J. G. M. Thewissen, Sunil Bajpai, S. Taseer Hussain, Kishor Kumar (2004) Eocene evolution of whale hearing, Nature, Vol 430, pp.776-778.

14. J. G. M. Thewissen, E. M. Williams, L. J. Roe & S. T. Hussain (2001) Skeletons of terrestrial cetaceans and the relationship of whales to artiodactyls, Nature, Vol 413, pp.277-281.

15. F. Spoor, S. Bajpai, S. T. Hussain, K. Kumar & J. G. M. Thewissen (2001) Vestibular evidence for the evolution of aquatic behaviour in early cetaceans, Nature, Vol 417, pp.163-166.

16. Remingtoncetidiae, See http://www.neoucom.edu/DEPTS/ANAT/Remi.html

17. Sunil Bajpai and J. G. M. Thewissen (2000) A new, diminutive Eocene whale from Kachchh (Gujarat, India) and its implications for locomotor evolution of cetaceans, Current Science, Vol 79, pp.1478-1482, See http://tejas.serc.iisc.ernet.in/currsci/nov252000/1478.pdf

18. The Animal Communication Project, See http://acp.eugraph.com/elephetc/hippo.html

19. Whale and hippo ‘close cousins’ BBC News, Monday, 24 January, 2005, See http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4204021.stm

20. Jean-Renaud Boisserie, Fabrice Lihoreau, and Michel Brunet (2005) The position of Hippopotamidae within Cetartiodactyla, Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci, Vol 102, pp.1537-1541.

21. Percival Davis, Dean H Kenyon, Charles Thaxton (1993) Of Pandas And People: The Central Question Of Biological Origins, Haughton Publishing Company, Richardson, Texas.

22. Laura J May-Collado, Ingi Agnarsson, Douglas Wartzok (2007) Phylogenetic review of tonal sound production in whales in relation to sociality, BMC Evolutionary Biology 2007, Vol 7, p.136, See http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1471-2148-7-136.pdf

23. Migrating Squid Drove Evolution Of Sonar In Whales And Dolphins, Researchers Argue
http://migration.wordpress.com/2007/09/15/squid-migration-drives-whale-sonar-evolution/

24. Morisaka T, Connor RC (2007) Predation by killer whales (Orcinus orca) and the evolution of whistle loss and narrow-band high frequency clicks in odontocetes, Journal Of Evolutionary Biology, Volume 20, pp.1439-58.

Comments
Nakashima-san:
As with your reliance on Dr Wells, you seem to have an affinity for authorities whose definitions don’t align with the real world very well.
Last I remember you bastardized Dr Well's position si if I were you I wouldn't bring that up. Also you don't seem to know what the real world is. But anyway:
We’ve just exchanged several comments based on the possibility that characters can be lost, but that a nested hierarchy can be constructed with high reliability anyway by using multiple characters.
Look if you lose a characteristic(s) then you lose containment. If you lose containment you lose the nested hierarchy. BTW “nested hierarchies involve levels which consist of, and contain, lower levels” is from the ISSS, meaning it is the real world. So why don't you just admit that you don't know what you are talking about or perhaps you can try to address the refutations already presented. Did you read and understand comment 54?Joseph
January 2, 2010
January
01
Jan
2
02
2010
01:53 PM
1
01
53
PM
PDT
Mr Joseph, Ya see because “nested hierarchies involve levels which consist of, and contain, lower levels” that means, as Dr Denton said, that defining characteristics must be immutable. As with your reliance on Dr Wells, you seem to have an affinity for authorities whose definitions don't align with the real world very well. We've just exchanged several comments based on the possibility that characters can be lost, but that a nested hierarchy can be constructed with high reliability anyway by using multiple characters. Why retreat to absolutist definitions by authors no one agrees with?Nakashima
January 2, 2010
January
01
Jan
2
02
2010
01:28 PM
1
01
28
PM
PDT
Do nested hierarchies demand/require that defining characteristics be immutable?
Yes.
Do nested hierarchies demand/require that defining characteristics be additive?
Yes.
Does evolution demand/require such a direction
No.
...can characteristics be lost if that is what is selected?
Yes. But we can toss out any "defining characteristics" as needed in order to maintain the illusion.Mung
January 2, 2010
January
01
Jan
2
02
2010
11:38 AM
11
11
38
AM
PDT
Zachriel:
The nested hierarchy is a fundamental pattern in biology and underlies the Theory of Common Descent.
Yet said theory does not predict such a pattern for the many reasons provided.
In order to understand the evidence for whale evolution (the thread topic), it is necessary to understand the Theory of Common Descent.
And those who understand said theory understand that nested hierarchy is not an expected result.Joseph
January 2, 2010
January
01
Jan
2
02
2010
10:35 AM
10
10
35
AM
PDT
Zachriel and others continue to spout off that descent with modification will lead to a nested hierarchy. I have already provided enough reasons to refute that premise but here is one more: Nested hierarchies have a direction- For example in the nested hierarchy of living organisms we have the animal kingdom. To be placed in the animal kingdom an organism must have all of the criteria of an animal. For example:
All members of the Animalia are multicellular (eukaryotes), and all are heterotrophs (that is, they rely directly or indirectly on other organisms for their nourishment). Most ingest food and digest it in an internal cavity. Animal cells lack the rigid cell walls that characterize plant cells. The bodies of most animals (all except sponges) are made up of cells organized into tissues, each tissue specialized to some degree to perform specific functions.
The next level (after kingdom) is the phyla. Phyla have all the characteristics of the kingdom PLUS other criteria. For example one phylum under the Kingdom Animalia, is Chordata. Chordates have all the characteristics of the Kingdom PLUS the following:
Chordates are defined as organisms that possess a structure called a notochord, at least during some part of their development. The notochord is a rod that extends most of the length of the body when it is fully developed. Lying dorsal to the gut but ventral to the central nervous system, it stiffens the body and acts as support during locomotion. Other characteristics shared by chordates include the following (from Hickman and Roberts, 1994): bilateral symmetry segmented body, including segmented muscles three germ layers and a well-developed coelom. single, dorsal, hollow nerve cord, usually with an enlarged anterior end (brain) tail projecting beyond (posterior to) the anus at some stage of development pharyngeal pouches present at some stage of development ventral heart, with dorsal and ventral blood vessels and a closed blood system complete digestive system bony or cartilaginous endoskeleton usually present.
The next level is the class. All classes have the criteria of the kingdom, plus all the criteria of its phylum PLUS the criteria of its class. This is important because it shows there is a direction- one of additive characteristics. Yet evolution does NOT have a direction. Characteristics can be lost as well as gained. And characteristics can remain stable. All of that means we should not expect a nested hierarchy with descent with modification.Joseph
January 2, 2010
January
01
Jan
2
02
2010
08:40 AM
8
08
40
AM
PDT
Zachriel:
As for Joseph, let’s try a very simple example of biological classification. Do whales group best with mice or fish?
What is the relevance Zach" A whale is a whale because it has the defining characteristics of a whale. Mice are mice because they have the defining characteristics of mice. And fish have the defining characteristics of fish. IOW just as I have been telling you for years classification is done via characteristics. Yet according to you descent alone is sufficient for classification. IOW Zachriel you appear to have changed your mind/ moved your goalposts. Why did you do that? Did you think that no one would notice?Joseph
January 2, 2010
January
01
Jan
2
02
2010
07:18 AM
7
07
18
AM
PDT
There is another stringent condition which must be satisfied if a hierarchic pattern is to result as an end product of an evolutionary process: no ancestral or transitional forms can be permitted to survive. This can be seen by examining the tree diagram on page 135. If any of the ancestors X, Y and Z, or if any of teh hypothetical transitional connecting species stationed on the main branches of the tree, had survived and had therefore to be included in the classification scheme, the distinctness of the divisions would be blurred by intermediate or partially inclusive classes and what remained of the hierarchic pattern would be highly disordered.
Charles Darwn:
Extinction, as we have seen in the fourth chapter, has played an important part in defining and widening the intervals between the several groups in each class. We may thus account for the distinctness of whole classes from each other- for instance, of birds from all other vertebvrate animals- by the belief that many ancient forms of life have been utterly lost, through which early progenitors of birds were formerly connected with the early progenitors of the other and at that time less differentiated vertebrate class. page 432 "Origins of Species..."
IOW extinction NOT descent is the cause of the observed distinct categories. If Zachriel were correct then descent alone would produce a nested hierarchy. But Zachriel is too much of a coward to even address the refutations. Your parents must be very proud of you Zach...Joseph
January 2, 2010
January
01
Jan
2
02
2010
07:14 AM
7
07
14
AM
PDT
Zachriel: As for Joseph, let’s try a very simple example of biological classification. Do whales group best with mice or fish?
Joseph said that the Theory of Evolution doesn't consider uncrossed lines of descent. When presented evidence from Darwin's Origin of Species that this is incorrect, he refuses to correct his claim. Joseph wants to discuss taxonomy and the nested hierarchy, but can't even tell us whether he would classify a whale with a mouse or a fish. As everything depends on how we classify organisms, attempting to discuss the overall pattern with Joseph would be fruitless. Suffice it to say, as previously mentioned, that the correlations between a wide number of trait characters is striking. You can look at a jaw bone and a few teeth and know the organism gave birth to its young live, nursed them from special glands, and looked after them until they could look after themselves. All from a few teeth. As the evolution of whales depends on understanding the Theory of Common Descent, and as no one wishes to follow the argument concerning the Theory of Common Descent, we take that to mean the original objections are no longer worth supporting.Zachriel
January 2, 2010
January
01
Jan
2
02
2010
07:11 AM
7
07
11
AM
PDT
Again transitional forms, by their very nature, would violate the distinct boundary requirement of nested hierarchy. Zachriel always ignores that and every refutation put forth and keeps babbling incoherently in the face of those refutations. So here is what I can do- I challenge Zachriel to a debate- we each put up $10,000 USD- we get a panel of referees (the loser also pays for the refs and the venue) and have it out. Zachriel the intellectual coward will not put up. What does that say about his position?Joseph
January 2, 2010
January
01
Jan
2
02
2010
06:55 AM
6
06
55
AM
PDT
ZAchriel:
If we categorize organisms by character traits, it turns out that for the vast majority of traits, they fall into the same groupings (#24).
You are a loser. Ya see if we catergorize organisms by characteristics- as I have been telling you for years- then we are NOT catergorizing them by descent. YOUR claim is that the nested hierarchy arose from descent. You have failed to support that claim.
The nested hierarchy is a fundamental pattern in biology and underlies the Theory of Common Descent.
Darwin did not say that. As a matter of fact Darwin used well timed extiction events to expolain the distinct categories. And YOU have failed to demonstrate that descent leads to a nested hierarchy. Why is that Zachriel? Now you say that nested hierarchies are built on characteristics- something I have been telling you for years. Guess what? Descent is NOT a characteristic. "Who's your daddy?" is not a characteristic. And why do you keep ignoring all the refutations I have presented? Do you think that your ignorance is meaningful discourse?Joseph
January 2, 2010
January
01
Jan
2
02
2010
06:53 AM
6
06
53
AM
PDT
So what part of the theory of evolution prevents crossing? Zachriel:
Darwin proposed uncrossed divergence as the basis of his Theory of Common Descent.
That does not answer the question Zach. Why are you avoiding answering the question?Joseph
January 2, 2010
January
01
Jan
2
02
2010
06:47 AM
6
06
47
AM
PDT
1- Do nested hierarchies demand/ require that defining characteristics be immutable? 2- Do nested hierarchies demand/ require that defining characteristics be additive? Those are simple “yes/ no” questions for someone who understands nested hierarchies. Now the clincher: Does evolution demand/ require such a direction, or can characteristics be lost if that is what is selected? Nakashima-san:
‘No’ to all three questions.
Thank you for demonstrating that you do not understand nested hierarchies. Ya see because "nested hierarchies involve levels which consist of, and contain, lower levels" that means, as Dr Denton said, that defining characteristics must be immutable. And as I said if you do not have additive charactetristics then you are stuck on one level which means you cannot construct a nested hierarchy.Joseph
January 2, 2010
January
01
Jan
2
02
2010
06:46 AM
6
06
46
AM
PDT
Mr Joseph, 'No' to all three questions.Nakashima
January 2, 2010
January
01
Jan
2
02
2010
03:48 AM
3
03
48
AM
PDT
The nested hierarchy is a fundamental pattern in biology and underlies the Theory of Common Descent. In order to understand the evidence for whale evolution (the thread topic), it is necessary to understand the Theory of Common Descent. If anyone else wishes to discuss the topic, please do. As for Joseph, let's try a very simple example of biological classification. Do whales group best with mice or fish?Zachriel
January 1, 2010
January
01
Jan
1
01
2010
07:51 PM
7
07
51
PM
PDT
Just in case anyone was really wondering: Does evolution demand/ require such a direction, or can characteristics be lost if that is what is selected? Can evolution make things less complicated?- Scientists suggest cell origins involved a forward-and-backward process
“We do think there is a tendency to look at evolution as progressive,” he said. “We prefer to think of evolution as backwards, sideways, and occasionally forward.”
It looks like the pattern expected should be a confused asterisk.Joseph
January 1, 2010
January
01
Jan
1
01
2010
05:46 PM
5
05
46
PM
PDT
Nakashima-san, 1- Do nested hierarchies demand/ require that defining characteristics be immutable? 2- Do nested hierarchies demand/ require that defining characteristics be additive? Those are simple “yes/ no” questions for someone who understands nested hierarchies. Now the clincher: Does evolution demand/ require such a direction, or can characteristics be lost if that is what is selected?Joseph
January 1, 2010
January
01
Jan
1
01
2010
02:35 PM
2
02
35
PM
PDT
Again transitional forms, by their very nature, would violate the distinct boundary requirement of nested hierarchy. Nakashima-san:
This is sort of like arguing that because streets have edges, they can’t merge together.
This is a joke, right? Do you understand tat nested hierarchies require distinct boundaries? Do you understand that without distinct boundaries that one population can belong to more than one set, as with a Venn diagram? And yes use as many characteristics as possible. The fact remains that they can be lost. And once lost the containment is broken. Again Denton goes over this. So why do you argue from ignorance as opposed to actually addressing the refutations? Those refutations have been published for 25 years and ignoring them is not going to make them go away. Ignoring you teeth will make them go away but ignoring arguments is not any way to debate.Joseph
January 1, 2010
January
01
Jan
1
01
2010
02:33 PM
2
02
33
PM
PDT
Mr Joseph, Again transitional forms, by their very nature, would violate the distinct boundary requirement of nested hierarchy. This is sort of like arguing that because streets have edges, they can't merge together. Or that if a street has a crumbly edge, it fails the distinct boundary requirement of streethood and is no longer a street. In the words of the prophet, not even wrong.Nakashima
January 1, 2010
January
01
Jan
1
01
2010
01:52 PM
1
01
52
PM
PDT
Mr Joseph, I think your first version of the sentence was better. If some of the defining characteristics were lost, constructing the correct hierarchy is relatively more difficult than if none were lost. You may have two or more hierarchies that seem equally probable. All the more reason to use as many characters as possible. As the game '20 Questions' shows, you can distinguish milions of species with a small number of characters, but more will avoid the loss of characters as an issue.Nakashima
January 1, 2010
January
01
Jan
1
01
2010
01:45 PM
1
01
45
PM
PDT
Joseph: If the defining traits can be lost then you will lose containment when that happens.
Consider a simple case. Cetaceans are aquatic and do not have hind limbs. Should they be grouped with mammals or fish? Or does it make more sense to consider a large number of traits and find the best fit?Zachriel
January 1, 2010
January
01
Jan
1
01
2010
01:11 PM
1
01
11
PM
PDT
Nakashima-san:
My point was that when you say ‘can’ lose containment, it is not the same as saying ‘do’ lose containment.
If the defining traits can be lost then you will lose containment when that happens. As for the Denton quotes perhaps you should read the book and then actually address the arguments made.Joseph
January 1, 2010
January
01
Jan
1
01
2010
12:24 PM
12
12
24
PM
PDT
As for the nested hierarchy, we can make very specific and clear predictions, such as mammary glands correlating with having three ear bones. There's a very real pattern involved, and this doesn't change no matter how you wave you hands. To answer your question, we observe that distantly related organisms don't cross. Darwin *hypothesized* uncrossed lines of descent to explain the observed nested hierarchy.
Joseph: Except that there isn’t any such thing as a typical tree. I basically live in the woods and I can show you a variety of different trees, different shapes, different topologies, all within 100 feet of my house.
Virtually every tree shares certain characteristics, e.g. each branch can have a number of children, but only one parent.
Joseph: But anyway this tree talk does not address the issue of nested hierarchies.
Your flawed understanding of the nested hierarchy is irrelevant. What matters are the actual patterns that are observed. If we categorize organisms by character traits, it turns out that for the vast majority of traits, they fall into the same groupings (#24). This is true even if the variations are completely random (#25).Zachriel
January 1, 2010
January
01
Jan
1
01
2010
12:12 PM
12
12
12
PM
PDT
Joseph There isn’t anything in the ToE which says anything about uncrossed divergence. Zachriel: Darwin proposed a process of uncrossed divergence as can be seen in this diagram from Origin of Species. Joseph: So what part of the theory of evolution prevents crossing?
Darwin proposed uncrossed divergence as the basis of his Theory of Common Descent. Please correct the record.Zachriel
January 1, 2010
January
01
Jan
1
01
2010
12:10 PM
12
12
10
PM
PDT
Mr Joseph, My point was that when you say 'can' lose containment, it is not the same as saying 'do' lose containment. You've just converted the argument to a probabilistic one based on the evidence. Using a large number of traits makes the probability of identifying the nested hierarchy quite high even if some traits are not immutable. Thank you for the Denton quotes. I would dispute his placement of the atoms in the periodic table with the force of winds, since atoms do vary in discrete ways. That paragraph seems to me to be talkng about continuous variations, though using the unfortunate choice of words 'sequential'.Nakashima
January 1, 2010
January
01
Jan
1
01
2010
10:13 AM
10
10
13
AM
PDT
Zachriel:
Darwin proposed a process of uncrossed divergence as can be seen in this diagram from Origin of Species.
So what part of the theory of evolution prevents crossing? Please be specific. Again transitional forms, by their very nature, would violate the distinct boundary requirement of nested hierarchy.
Don’t let terminology confuse you.
You are the only confusion here.
Most everyone is aware of the topology of the typical tree.
Except that there isn't any such thing as a typical tree. I basically live in the woods and I can show you a variety of different trees, different shapes, different topologies, all within 100 feet of my house. But anyway this tree talk does not address the issue of nested hierarchies. Watch Zachriel squirm and bloviate: Zachriel, 1- Do nested hierarchies demand/ require that defining characteristics be immutable? 2- Do nested hierarchies demand/ require that defining characteristics be additive? Those are simple “yes/ no” questions for someone who understands nested hierarchies. Now the clincher: Does evolution demand/ require such a direction, or can characteristics be lost if that is what is selected? I should have added "or ignore"...Joseph
January 1, 2010
January
01
Jan
1
01
2010
10:08 AM
10
10
08
AM
PDT
Joseph: Again transitional forms, by their very nature, would violate the distinct boundary requirement of nested hierarchy.
Don't let terminology confuse you. Most everyone is aware of the topology of the typical tree. Any point in a tree can have a number of descendents, but one-and-only-one ancestor. We can cut the tree at any point, and the branch with all its stems will be separated from the rest of the tree as a clearly defined set.Zachriel
January 1, 2010
January
01
Jan
1
01
2010
09:04 AM
9
09
04
AM
PDT
Watch Zachriel squirm and bloviate: Zachriel, 1- Do nested hierarchies demand/ require that defining characteristics be immutable? 2- Do nested hierarchies demand/ require that defining characteristics be additive? Those are simple "yes/ no" questions for someone who understands nested hierarchies. Now the clincher: Does evolution demand/ require such a direction, or can characteristics be lost if that is what is selected?Joseph
January 1, 2010
January
01
Jan
1
01
2010
08:56 AM
8
08
56
AM
PDT
There isn’t anything in the ToE which says anything about uncrossed divergence. Darwin proposed a process of uncrossed divergence as can be seen in this diagram from Origin of Species.Zachriel
January 1, 2010
January
01
Jan
1
01
2010
08:54 AM
8
08
54
AM
PDT
Nakashima-san, Are you saying that each organism is classified by using hundreds and thousands of traits? When classifying animals there is only a handful of traits used. IOW what is determined to be an animal is decided by a handful of defining traits, not hundrfeds nor thousands. But anyways what is your point?Joseph
January 1, 2010
January
01
Jan
1
01
2010
08:41 AM
8
08
41
AM
PDT
Mr Joseph, If they are not immuatble then you can lose containment. A reason to use hundreds and thousands of traits.Nakashima
January 1, 2010
January
01
Jan
1
01
2010
08:24 AM
8
08
24
AM
PDT
1 2 3 4 5

Leave a Reply