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Whale Evolution? Darwinist ‘Trawlers’ Have Every Reason To Be Concerned

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“Of all whale species, by far the noisiest, chattiest, most exuberant, and most imaginative is the humpback. It is the noisemaker and the Caruso of the deep, now grating like an old hinge, now as melodious as an operatic tenor” (1). These were the words of the late oceanographer Jacques Cousteau in his epic volume Whales, originally written in French under the more descriptive title La Planete Des Baleines. The male humpback in particular had been a source of fascination for Cousteau’s exploration team precisely because of its exquisite song-making capabilities. Star Trek aficionados will no doubt remember the long-range distress calls of these ocean-faring giants in the movie blockbuster The Voyage Home.

Humpbacks can be heard for hundreds or even thousands of kilometers creating discernible noise sequences or ‘themes’ that can last as long as 20-30 hours (1,2). The available repertoire of vocalizations requires that “bursts of air” be channeled up from the lungs and through the trachea (3). The frequency range of these vocalizations is formidable- 8-4000 Hz (compared to 80-1300 Hz for a singing human; (4)). While certain sounds might serve to maintain contact between distant herds (2) others are clearly used to attract mates in the shallow breeding grounds of the tropics (5).

The sperm whale’s characteristic clicking has likewise been intensely studied and marine biologists have in the last decade described this creature’s ‘pneumatic sound generator’ in great detail (6). Usual clicks serve for echo location while so-called ‘coda’ clicks are used for maintaining the “complex social structure in female groups” (6). Remarkably the amount of air used to make each click is so small that even at depths of 2000 m, where the air volume is significantly reduced, sperm whales can phonate successfully (6). The mechanism of sound generation is exquisitely selective for the two modes of communication: “the marked differences between coda clicks and usual clicks are caused by differential sound propagation in the nasal complex” (6).

Other whale species are known to ‘talk to each other’: blue whales, fin whales, rights and bowheads all display the use of what has tentatively been called a rudimentary language (7). Equally captivating is the auditory apparatus that picks up these sounds (8). Unlike terrestrial mammals, whales sport freely-vibrating ossicles in the middle ear for more sensitive distance hearing:

“The bones of the middle ear, although fused to each other, are not directly connected to the rest of the skull; they are suspended from it by means of ligaments. All around them is a complex network of cavities and sinuses filled with a foamy mucus that further insulates the ear from the skull and provides yet another means by which whales filter out all but the essential sounds.”(9)

What are we to make of the evolutionary origins of these key designs? In the summer of 2009 a seminal publication in the journal Mammalian Biology provided fodder for one popular idea (10). Using the aquatic escape behavior of Bornean mouse deer as primary evidence for their claims, researchers from Indonesia and the Australian National University in Canberra proposed that whales might have descended from ancient members of the ruminant family tragulidae which today includes cattle, sheep, goats and deer (11). Local villagers have observed tragulids submerging themselves in rivers and streams for over five minutes at a time as a way of eschewing would-be predators (10).

The Australian-Indonesian publication came hot on the heels of a cladistic study that claimed to have found a whale ‘sister group’ called Indohyus – “a middle Eocene raoellid artiodactyl from Kashmir, India” (10, 12). The overarching conclusion of this earlier work was nothing short of profound:

“Our analysis identifies raoellids as the sister group to cetaceans and bridges the morphological divide that separated early cetaceans from artiodacyls.” (12)

We might therefore reasonably expect that the hearing and vocalization of modern cetaceans could be drawn into a gradual evolutionary sequence, perhaps going as far back as the land-sea transitioning mammals from which they are supposed to have been derived. But like so many evolutionary just-so stories, the devil is in the details. Indeed Darwinists admit that significant differences in the morphology of sensory organs make cetaceans unique (12).

In 2004 a group headed by professor of anatomy Hans Thewissen published what appeared to be the definitive answer on the evolution of whale hearing (13). Their ‘integrated interpretation of evolving sound transmission mechanisms’ came as a result of fossils that were collected from 35-50 million year-old deposits (13). The base specimen of their cladistic interpretation, a 50 million year old fossil of a terrestrial mammal called pakicetus, benefited from bone conduction of sound through a loosely suspended tympanic bone (13). Later aquatic mammals such as remingtoncetus and protocetus possessed large so-called mandibular fat pads that further improved bone-mediated sound transmission (13). For all three phyletic groups a terrestrial auditory structure called the external meatus allowed efficient capture of airborne sounds (13). Thewissen’s final chronological group, the basilosauroids, sported yet one further innovation- air-filled sinuses that acoustically isolated the ear from the rest of the skull (13).

The most striking omission in the above sequence, and perhaps the most important of all, is the explanation for how a fleeting mouse deer somehow adapted to the acoustic rigors of underwater living. A five minute escapade in the shallows of a river is a far cry from the mate searches that would have been so vital for an aquatic lifestyle. Pakicetus was in fact a fast-running, land-dwelling long-necked quadruped (more like a dog than a deer) that lacked any sort of sub-aquatic anatomy (14, 15). Indeed one alternative interpretation of the data is that the pakicetus middle ear structure was more consistent with what one might expect for a subterranean habitat in which the head is in direct contact with the ground (14).

While Remingtoncetus was undoubtedly a four-legged semi-aquatic mammal that had a long slender snout, small eyes and ears and an overall size perhaps no bigger than a sea otter (16, 17), the above descriptive of the origins of its auditory innovations fits more in line with what one might expect for, say, a saltationist view of life than any sort of gradual evolutionary process. The same can be said of the supposed transition from protocetus to basilosauroids. In fact the fossil evidence reveals that in remingtoncetus the foundations of the modern whale underwater auditory mechanism had already been realized (13). Ironically the most convincing set of ear transitional forms in the whale evolutionist’s armory- that of the decrease in size of the semicircular canal system of the inner ear (involved in balance) – only shows evolution bringing about small changes to already existing functional innovations (15).

Hippopotamids are of course hot favorites for the title of the closest living terrestrial relatives of whales (18, 19). Like whales, modern hippos are furnished with bone-mediated hearing and exhibit effective underwater communication (18). Still, morphology-based phylogenies to-date have yielded conflicting results and the identification of intermediates that supposedly spanned the divide between hippos and the common ancestor is controversial (20). Different analyses show anywhere between 3 and 40 million years of unrecorded evolution depending on which sister groups one chooses to grab along the way (20).

Over a decade ago one high school biology textbook asserted that there were no clear transitional fossils linking land mammals to whales (21). Such a position has been upheld by the most recent peer-reviewed literature. In fact hypotheses on the evolution of sound generation in whales and delphinids hinge upon the selective “drivers” that purportedly brought about change (eg: hunting, increased sociality, predator avoidance) while leaving out the mechanistic details of how such change took place (22, 23, 24). In contrast, the co-integrated nature of whale sound transmission, both in its vocalization and capture, has led some to the inference that intelligent rather than mindless design is at play. As one review noted:

“The anatomical structure, biological function, and way of life of whales are so distinctly different from those of terrestrial mammals that they cannot possibly have evolved from the latter by small genetic changes; aquatics require the simultaneous presence of all their complex features to survive. Perfect acoustical and other constructions are required for their serenades and way of life in the vastness of the ocean; they could only exist from a detailed preliminary plan. Employing sounds to allure their mates has another interesting feature, considering the entirety of the animal kingdom. Although each species emits sound signals that resemble signals of other species, the animals never mistake the sounds for those of other species…Harmony between sounds and sound-receiving organs likewise presupposes the…requirement of simultaneous appearance, while excluding the possibility of gradual evolution.” (8)

In short, the latest evidence on whale communication cuts deep into the fishing nets of evolutionary dogma. Darwinist trawlers have every reason to be concerned.

Literature Cited
1.Jacques Cousteau and Yves Paccalet (1986) Whales, W.H. Allen & Co, London, pp. 236-38.

2.Eduardo Mercado III (1998) Humpback Whale BioAcoustics: From Form To Function, PhD thesis, University of Hawaii, http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~emiii/diss.pdf p.16.

3. Ibid p.25.

4. Ibid p.37.

5. Planet Earth Series: Shallow Seas, Narrated by David Attenborough, BBC Video, 2008.

6. P. T. Madsen, R. Payne, N. U. Kristiansen, M. Wahlberg, I. Kerr and B. Mohl (2002) Sperm whale sound production studied with ultrasound time/depth-recording tags, The Journal of Experimental Biology, Vol 205, 1899-1906.

7. Jacques Cousteau and Yves Paccalet (1986) Whales, W.H. Allen & Co, London, p.234.

8. Balazs Hornyanszky and Istvan Tasi (2009) Nature’s IQ: Extraordinary Animal Behaviors That Defy Evolution, Torchlight Publishing, Badger, CA, pp.102-104.

9. Jacques Cousteau and Yves Paccalet (1986) Whales, W.H. Allen & Co, London, p.161.

10. Erik Meijaarda, Umilaela, GehandeSilva Wijeyeratne (2009), Aquatic escape behaviour in mouse-deer provides insight into tragulid evolution, Mammalian Biology, doi:10.1016/j.mambio.2009.05.007

11. Matt Walker (2009) Aquatic Deer And Ancient Whales, BBC Earth News, 7th July, 2009, See http://news.bbc.co.uk/earth/hi/earth_news/newsid_8137000/8137922.stm

12. J. G. M. Thewissen, Lisa Noelle Cooper, Mark T. Clementz, Sunil Bajpai & B. N. Tiwari (2007) Whales originated from aquatic artiodactyls in the Eocene epoch of India, Nature, Vol 450, pp.1190-1194.

13. Sirpa Nummela, J. G. M. Thewissen, Sunil Bajpai, S. Taseer Hussain, Kishor Kumar (2004) Eocene evolution of whale hearing, Nature, Vol 430, pp.776-778.

14. J. G. M. Thewissen, E. M. Williams, L. J. Roe & S. T. Hussain (2001) Skeletons of terrestrial cetaceans and the relationship of whales to artiodactyls, Nature, Vol 413, pp.277-281.

15. F. Spoor, S. Bajpai, S. T. Hussain, K. Kumar & J. G. M. Thewissen (2001) Vestibular evidence for the evolution of aquatic behaviour in early cetaceans, Nature, Vol 417, pp.163-166.

16. Remingtoncetidiae, See http://www.neoucom.edu/DEPTS/ANAT/Remi.html

17. Sunil Bajpai and J. G. M. Thewissen (2000) A new, diminutive Eocene whale from Kachchh (Gujarat, India) and its implications for locomotor evolution of cetaceans, Current Science, Vol 79, pp.1478-1482, See http://tejas.serc.iisc.ernet.in/currsci/nov252000/1478.pdf

18. The Animal Communication Project, See http://acp.eugraph.com/elephetc/hippo.html

19. Whale and hippo ‘close cousins’ BBC News, Monday, 24 January, 2005, See http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4204021.stm

20. Jean-Renaud Boisserie, Fabrice Lihoreau, and Michel Brunet (2005) The position of Hippopotamidae within Cetartiodactyla, Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci, Vol 102, pp.1537-1541.

21. Percival Davis, Dean H Kenyon, Charles Thaxton (1993) Of Pandas And People: The Central Question Of Biological Origins, Haughton Publishing Company, Richardson, Texas.

22. Laura J May-Collado, Ingi Agnarsson, Douglas Wartzok (2007) Phylogenetic review of tonal sound production in whales in relation to sociality, BMC Evolutionary Biology 2007, Vol 7, p.136, See http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1471-2148-7-136.pdf

23. Migrating Squid Drove Evolution Of Sonar In Whales And Dolphins, Researchers Argue
http://migration.wordpress.com/2007/09/15/squid-migration-drives-whale-sonar-evolution/

24. Morisaka T, Connor RC (2007) Predation by killer whales (Orcinus orca) and the evolution of whistle loss and narrow-band high frequency clicks in odontocetes, Journal Of Evolutionary Biology, Volume 20, pp.1439-58.

Comments
From the The International Society for the Systems Sciences:
nested hierarchies involve levels which consist of, and contain, lower levels.
That means that the defining characteristics must be immutable and additive for the reasons I have already provided. Also Darwin did not say that descent with modification led to the nested hierarchy observed- which BTW is not constructed by descent but by CHARACTERISTICS. Darwin used well placed (timed) extinction events to explain the distinct boundaries observed. Boundaries that shouldn't exist otherwise.Joseph
January 1, 2010
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From "Evolution: A Theory in Crisis":
Whenever classification schemes are drawn up for phenomena which fall into a continuous or obviously sequential pattern—such as climatic zones from the artic to the tropics, subspecies in a circumpolar overlap, the properties of atoms in the periodic table, series of fossil horses, or wind strengths from breeze to hurricane—class boundaries are bound to be relatively arbitrary and indistinct. Most of the classes defined in such schemes are inevitably partially inclusive of other classes, or, in other words, fundamentally intermediate in character with respect to adjacent classes in the scheme. Consequently, when such schemes are depicted in terms of Venn diagrams, most of the classes overlap and the schemes overall have a disorderly appearance. A quite different type of classification system is termed hierarchic. In which there are no overlapping or partially inclusive classes, but only classes inclusive or exclusive of other classes. Such schemes exhibit, therefore, an orderly “groups within groups” arrangement in which class boundaries are distinct and the divisions in the system increase in a systematic manner as the hierarchy is ascended. The absence of any overlapping classes implies the absence of any sort of natural sequential relationships among the objects grouped by such a scheme.
Page 131:
“While hierarchic schemes correspond beautifully with the typological model of nature, the relationship between evolution and hierarchical systems is curiously ambiguous. Ever since 1859 it has been traditional for evolutionary biologists to claim that the hierarchic pattern of nature provides support for the idea of organics evolution. Yet, direct evidence for evolution only resides in the existence of unambiguous sequential arrangements, and these are never present in ordered hierarchic schemes.” “Of course evolutionary biologists do not look for the direct evidence in the hierarchy itself but rather argue, as Darwin did, that the hierarchic pattern is readily explained in terms of an evolutionary tree.”
Only if diagnostic character traits remain essentially immutable in all members of the group they define is it possible to conceive of a hierarchic pattern emerging as the result of an evolutionary process.—Michael Denton “Evolution: A Theory in Crisis” page 135.
Again transitional forms, by their very nature, would violate the distinct boundary requirement of nested hierarchy. Zachriel always ignores that and every refutation put forth and keeps babbling incoherently in the face of those refutations. So here is what I can do- I challenge Zachriel to a debate- we each put up $10,000 USD- we get a panel of referees (the loser also pays for the refs and the venue) and have it out.Joseph
January 1, 2010
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Zachriel:
The nested hierarchy allows specific predictions.
Descent with modification does nit predict nor expect a nested hierarchy. We should not be able to see distinct boudaries that nested hierarchy requires. Zachriel:
From previous discussions, you had difficulty with basic set theory, so such a discussion may not be fruitful, but we’ll try.
What a jerk. All of our previous discussions have demonstrated that you don't know what you are talking about. You still have not addressed any one refutation of your ignorance-driven claims. Why is that?
If we posit a common ancestor and uncrosssed divergence, it will form a typical rooted tree structure.
There isn't anything in the ToE which says anything about uncrossed divergence. Also it is a given that a tree structure does not form a nested hierarchy. A tree in set theory is partially ordered: tree set theory: In set theory, a tree is a partially ordered set Again- nested hierarchies are constructed via defining characteristics. Those characteristics MUST BE immutable and additive. If they are not immuatble then you can lose containment. If they are not additive you are stuck on one level. Evolution is NOT like that.Joseph
January 1, 2010
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Borne,
Zachriel: You’re dreaming in color… again. Get down to reality please and post again when you have something other than speculation and wishful thinking based on denial of the realities of the problems involved in transforming one mechanical structure into another without any guidance or purpose.
I find it interesting to note that while Zachriel address specific issues, you just shrug it all off without any argument at all. You say "transforming one mechanical structure into another(without any guidance or purpose.)" All right, to me, that looks like total denial of the entire theory of evolution. Guidance and purpose is incompatible with evolution. Evolution is about mutations in DNA, selection, differential reproduction and many other aspects that adds up to descent with modification. I think it is fair to ask what are the sources of guidance and purpose? How do they work, where and when?Cabal
January 1, 2010
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Joseph: We should not be able to see distinct boudaries that nested hierarchy requires.
From previous discussions, you had difficulty with basic set theory, so such a discussion may not be fruitful, but we'll try. If we posit a common ancestor and uncrosssed divergence, it will form a typical rooted tree structure. Note that any node can have many descendents, but only one ancestor. If we cut any branch, it will separate the branch and all its stems from the root. If we further assume heredity of characteristics with some variation, even if that variation is random, then we will be able to reconstruct the lines of descent from the twigs. Here is a result (seventh generation) of divergence with random variation from the common ancestor, : : : : : : R : : : E : V : : : E : S H C A : : S H C A K : : H X : : : : H X M : : : K X : : : T K X : : : : M X V : : : H X V : : The results are clearly non-random, and even from these short snippets, it's not difficult to reconstruct much of the phylogeny. With much longer sequences, we can have very high statistical confidence in our reconstruction.Zachriel
December 31, 2009
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The nested hierarchy allows specific predictions. If you say you have an organism with mammary glands, we can predict it will have a complex eukaryote cell structure with organelles such as mitochondria, that it ingests other organisms for nourishment, has bilateral symmetry, an alimentary canal, a bony head at one end with an array of sense organs, vertebrae protecting a nerve cord, integument, jaw, ribs, four limbs during at least at some stage of life, neck, neocortex, endothermic, internal fertilization, four-chambered heart, lungs with alveoli and a muscular diaphragm, two eyes, three ear bones in each of two ears, hair or at least hair follicles at some stage of life, sebaceous glands, most probably will have heterodont dentition. These are not trivial correlations, but among the most fundamental relationships in biology.Zachriel
December 31, 2009
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Zachriel:
But there is only a single consistent way to arrange vertebrates by traits.
If descent with modification were true then that "single consistent way" would be a sequence/ lineage. We should not be able to see distinct boudaries that nested hierarchy requires. We should see a gradual blend indicative of a Venn diagram with descent with modification. And neither a sequence, lineage nor a Venn diagram should be confused for a nested hierarchy. As I have told you before nested hierarchies demand/ require immutable and additive defining characteristics. Evolution/ descent with modification doesn't follow such rules. Again Dr Denton spells it all out for anyone who chooses knowledge over ignorance. It is up to you...Joseph
December 31, 2009
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As always, you have to start with the nested hierarchy of descent, a pattern which certainly encompasses all vertebrates. Whale evolution is then seen for what it is, a detail in the overall pattern.
So your claim is, that once a character has been gained, it can never be lost. And this is required for the nesting pattern, isn't it? Yet we have no reason to think it's true.Mung
December 31, 2009
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Mr Deyes, Ironically the most convincing set of ear transitional forms in the whale evolutionist’s armory- that of the decrease in size of the semicircular canal system of the inner ear (involved in balance) – only shows evolution bringing about small changes to already existing functional innovations (15) I'm not sure why this is ironic, it is all evolution ever claimed to do. What percent per year (or generation) did any of these morphologies have to change per generation to acheive the transitions claimed for them? I think Dr Meyer's debating partner worked it out for their debate with Shermer and Provine. I think the answer is a pretty small number. Happy New Year to all!Nakashima
December 31, 2009
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mynym: Are you admitting that Homo sapiens are capable of bringing about design based on their intelligence and knowledge ...
Of course humans are capable of design based on their intelligence and knowledge.Zachriel
December 31, 2009
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mynym, Even if the alleged tree of life were solid it still would not produce a nested hierarchy. Again I refer you to "Evolution: A Theory in Crisis" in which Dr Denton thoroughly refutes the notion that evolution predicts a nested hierarchy/ NH is evidence for common descent.Joseph
December 31, 2009
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Zachriel: Unlike vertebrates, automobiles do not form a singular nested hierarchy. Joseph: It would all depend on the defining characteristics used.
That's exactly right. With automobiles, depending on the traits chosen, there are many ways to categorize them. But there is only a single consistent way to arrange vertebrates by traits. And that's why we can make reliable predictions in biology based on incomplete information. A jaw bone and a few teeth can often place an organism within a narrow range of taxa. The molecular data, and each newly discovered organism, extinct or extant, supports this arrangement derived from morphological data.Zachriel
December 31, 2009
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As always, you have to start with the nested hierarchy of descent, a pattern which certainly encompasses all vertebrates. Your supposed central tenet is questionable, even it may be receding back into the hypothetical goo that typifies "evolution," whatever evolution may be. E.g.
...it is clear that the Darwinian tree is no longer an adequate description of how evolution in general works. "If you don't have a tree of life, what does it mean for evolutionary biology?" asks Bapteste. "At first it's very scary... but in the past couple of years people have begun to free their minds." Both he and Doolittle are at pains to stress that downgrading the tree of life doesn't mean that the theory of evolution is wrong - just that evolution is not as tidy as we would like to believe. Some evolutionary relationships are tree-like; many others are not. "We should relax a bit on this," says Doolittle. "We understand evolution pretty well - it's just that it is more complex than Darwin imagined. The tree isn't the only pattern."Why Darwin Was Wrong About the Tree of Life, New Scientist
(It’s rather humorous see a cite to Of Pandas and People as a scientific authority.) Not as humorous as it is to see you supposedly speaking for knowledge and science based on brains created by blind and ignorant Darwinian processes. You almost break from Darwinian ignorance and imbecility to admit the glaringly obvious here: We can observe the mechanism by which automobiles are manufactured. And we can observe the mechanisms of evolution, including selection, variation and sources of novelty. In either case, we can propose and test theories of descent and modification. Are you admitting that Homo sapiens are capable of bringing about design based on their intelligence and knowledge or is it actually only the illusion of design brought about by blind and ignorant biological processes? If you can imagine that it is all brought about by blind mechanisms, then wouldn't that indicate that it is? That's what you seem to be doing in the case of other organisms in the name of science and knowledge, so why not imagine things your knowledge to be created by ignorant processes as well? At any rate, a reasonable and intelligent reader can easily admit that the intelligence and knowledge typical to organisms has an impact on the physical world based on observation and experience.mynym
December 31, 2009
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Zachriel:
Unlike vertebrates, automobiles do not form a singular nested hierarchy.
It would all depend on the defining characteristics used. Also it is a given that decent with modification leads to a lineage which is not to be confused with a nested hierarchy. Not even a branching lineage would lead to a nested hierarchy. Ya see descent is not a defining characteristic. Neither is "who's your daddy?".
In either case, we can propose and test theories of descent and modification.
And we can propose and test theories of common design. What you cannot do with descent with modification is account for the physiological and anatomical differences observed.Joseph
December 31, 2009
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Joseph said: Show me a patient drill sgt and I will show you future dead soldiers… You may have a point.Collin
December 30, 2009
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Collin, I tried that. Also there is a history between "Zachriel" and myself. The nested hierarchy nonsense was refuted by Denton in 1984 with the release of "Evolution: A Theory in Crisis". Zachriel doesn't even deal with the refutations. All he does is to keep on parroting his ignorance. So I will leave the "gracious" stuff to you. BTW I am not so sure I would rather have a patient teacher. Show me a patient drill sgt and I will show you future dead soldiers...Joseph
December 30, 2009
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Joseph, But it is in your best interest to be gracious as a debater. Because sometimes you will be wrong too. And you'd rather have a patient teacher than an insulting one.Collin
December 30, 2009
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Sometimes the truth hurts. That is not my fault...Joseph
December 30, 2009
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but what is the "intelligent design" of the assertion? the creator dipped in and tinkered with the ears of his sea-dogs? i prefer the version in Hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy.pete saussy
December 30, 2009
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Joseph said: "But anyways seeing that Zachriel doesn’t understand nested hierarchy there is little hope that he will understand any evidence." Not very gracious Joe.Collin
December 30, 2009
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chriel:
As always, you have to start with the nested hierarchy of descent
There isn't any such thing as a "nested hierarchy of descent". It is very humorous seeing you trot out the refuted notion that descent leads to a nested hierarchy. It's as if you don't care about reality, which means you don't care about science.
a pattern which certainly encompasses all vertebrates.
Only design, and certainly not descent, can explain a nested hierarchy. As for the alleged evolution of whales from land mammals- well there isn't any scientific data which demonstrates that teh transformations required are even possible via any amount of mutational accumulation. It is an untestable premise. But anyways seeing that Zachriel doesn't understand nested hierarchy there is little hope that he will understand any evidence.Joseph
December 30, 2009
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Collin: You can also see similar progression of unique characteristics, diversification and fitting into niches in the evolution of automobiles.
Unlike vertebrates, automobiles do not form a singular nested hierarchy. Unlike vertebrates, they do not reproduce themselves. We can observe the mechanism by which automobiles are manufactured. And we can observe the mechanisms of evolution, including selection, variation and sources of novelty. In either case, we can propose and test theories of descent and modification.Zachriel
December 30, 2009
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Zachriel: Cetaceans are large-brained, warm-blooded mammals (as are beavers and otters). VMartin: Yet crocodiles do not care.
It was a clue.
VMartin: They prey upon cold-blooded, warm-blooded whatever large-small brained animals in shallow waters.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfPB3pEipjgZachriel
December 30, 2009
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Zachriel's unintelligible argument: Cetaceans are large-brained, warm-blooded mammals (as are beavers and otters). Yet crocodiles do not care. They prey upon cold-blooded, warm-blooded whatever large-small brained animals in shallow waters. Don't test it yourself please. Oddly enough they had left enough of their own "niche" for crocodiles-like ambulocetus and let them prey there side by side. Crocodiles must have been real gentlemens around Eocene.VMartin
December 30, 2009
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Zachriel, You can also see similar progression of unique characteristics, diversification and fitting into niches in the evolution of automobiles. In fact, the fossil record is much more smooth from one species to another and can be divide neatly in taxological categories. We see more efficient, unique and adaptable species surviving and thriving while older, less efficient, and less complex forms dying out as they are replaced by more fit species. I think that the unescapable conclusion is that automobiles were not intelligently designed and were a product of chance and natural forces.Collin
December 30, 2009
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Zachriel: You're dreaming in color... again. Get down to reality please and post again when you have something other than speculation and wishful thinking based on denial of the realities of the problems involved in transforming one mechanical structure into another without any guidance or purpose.Borne
December 30, 2009
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Otters vs. CrocodilesZachriel
December 30, 2009
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As always, you have to start with the nested hierarchy of descent, a pattern which certainly encompasses all vertebrates. Whale evolution is then seen for what it is, a detail in the overall pattern. As for the specifics of whale evolution, Pakicetus has the distinctive skull of Cetaceans. Other fossils (e.g. Ambulocetus, Rodhocetus, Basilosaurus, Squalodon) show a progression of intermediate characteristics, including reduced hind limbs, and the later acquisition of echolocation. Genetic data also supports placing Cetaceans within Artiodactyls. (It's rather humorous see a cite to Of Pandas and People as a scientific authority.)
VMartin: One wonders why crocodiles didn’t occupy freed niches – shallow waters – as it usually does, but had left them for ambulocetus.
Cetaceans are large-brained, warm-blooded mammals (as are beavers and otters).Zachriel
December 30, 2009
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Good stuff. Gradualism is far from being granted and cautiosness is always in place. I would say that another fact that doesn't play in cards in this whale-transition process is the problem of "free niche" (another neodarwinian word so flexible that it is almost void). Ambulocetus - not mentioned in the article - is considered to be one of "links" in whale transition. This creature morphologicaly resembles the crocodile. But the crocodile survived the impact of a meteor 65 myr. years ago which should have eradicated fauna of that period and caused mammalian radiation. One wonders why crocodiles didn't occupy freed niches - shallow waters - as it usually does, but had left them for ambulocetus. Surely less adaptation - if any at all - would have been needed. http://cadra.wordpress.com/VMartin
December 30, 2009
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