Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

When Is Murder “Good”?

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I present the following proposition for consideration:  “Every human being has infinite value and therefore one can never justify killing a human being on the ground that killing that human results in a net overall increase in pleasure even for the human in question.” 

What reasoning could possibly warrant believing this proposition to be true?

Let’s say we have two people debating the matter.  “John” accepts the first principles of the Judeo-Christian belief system.  “Sam” is a metaphysical materialist.

John:  This is easy.  One of the first principles of the Judeo-Christian belief system is that humans are created imago Dei, literally, in the “image of God.”  God is, by definition, the most valuable of all things, and it follows that anything that is created in his likeness shares in that value.  Therefore, each human has infinite value and unique dignity and cannot be traded for any other “good.”  Therefore, John says in answer to the question in the heading, “never.”

Sam:  Hmmm.  Well . . . You see . . . Hmmm.  I got nothin’.

Sam has nothing indeed.  Will Provine is correct.  If God does not exist and has not declared an ethical standard then there simply is no foundation for ethics.  Everyone is cast adrift in a sea of conflicting opinions about the grounding of any ethical norm, including the ethical norm, “Thou shalt not commit murder.”  In fact, one system of materialist ethics (consequentialism, especially the utilitarian version of it) holds that no absolute statement such as this is ever true.  If you ask a consequentialist whether it is OK to murder someone, all he can say is “Does it increase overall happiness to murder that person?”  If yes, go ahead and murder him.  So the materialist who subscribes to consequentialism answers the question in the heading “depending on the circumstances, sometimes.”

Comments
Bornagain: I'm surprised you lasted as long as you did. But I appreciate the opportunities you have given me to express my point of view to a larger audience.Bruce David
November 4, 2011
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Bruce, I'm done with you!bornagain77
November 4, 2011
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Bornagain: re: #11.1.1.1.9 I’d like to consider one particular part of your “correction” of my last post, where you state that “I’m going to believe what I want to be true instead of the actual truth.” My first response was along the lines of “Oh, typical, you assume you know the what the truth is and everyone who disagrees with you doesn’t.” But as I pondered my response, I began to realize that something a little deeper was at work here. You actually believe that there is a truth “out there” available to anyone who cares to look, and that people who don’t accept that truth are in denial, unwilling to face the hard facts, or some such. It follows that there is in your mind an authority who reveals to us what that truth is. One doesn’t have to look very far to see who that authority is, of course; it is Jesus Christ. Now I say that to the contrary, the one and only authority with regard to the truth in your reality is you, and in mine, me. Similarly for everyone. We are inevitably and inescapably the sole authority for truth in our own lives. This is the human condition. Who is it that decides for you that Jesus is the authority? You do. No one else can make that decision for you. You often cite the scientific anomalies with the Shroud of Turin as evidence. But the MOST that those anomalies provide is evidence that there was something special, supernatural even, about Jesus. They don’t provide proof that he is the authority, and even if they did, it is you who must decide whether the proof is valid. A Muslim, for example, would say something like, “I’m not surprised about the shroud. We believe that Jesus is Ruch Allah, the spirit of God. But Muhammad is His messenger, and it is to Muhammad that we must turn as the authority on how to live our lives and the true nature of God and our relationship to Him.” What authority can tell you whether to accept Jesus or Muhammad as the source of truth? You. Only You. And once you decide that Jesus is the authority, then how do you know what Jesus teaches us regarding the truth, since he isn’t here to tell us himself? I suspect you’d say that we turn to the Bible for that. Thus, the Bible becomes the authority. But which interpretation of the Bible? Catholic? Eastern Orthodox? Southern Baptist? Amish? Mormon? Church of England? Lutheran? Missouri Synod? Your own personal interpretation of scripture? Who chooses? On what authority? You do on your own authority. You can’t escape it. You choose your own truth. Always. You are your own authority, as I am mine. So you actually have no basis for concluding that I “believe what I want to be true instead of the actual truth.” You know what the truth is for you, but you don't know what the truth is for me, other than what I tell you it is.Bruce David
November 4, 2011
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Eugene S: "Scott, Eocene, The only other thing I will say is that I agree on this with Sts John Chrysostom, Gregory the Theologian, Basil the Great and a host of other Christian saints" ==== Well of course when you state this with confidence, I believe you. However, rather than believe any eccesiastical hierarchy run by imperfect man, I've always trusted what the bible itself says and how it defines itself by comparing the context with the help of good Hebrew and Greek Lexicons and independent unbiased Bible dictionaries.Eocene
November 4, 2011
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As well, since we are considering the poverty of any other philosophy, compared to our Judeo-Christian heritage, to make successful predictions of the scientific evidence we have now found, I think it is very fitting to point out that Judeo-Christianity was the only philosophy to successfully give birth to sustained scientific development in the first place:
Jerry Coyne on the Scientific Method and Religion - Michael Egnor - June 2011 Excerpt: The scientific method -- the empirical systematic theory-based study of nature -- has nothing to so with some religious inspirations -- Animism, Paganism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Shintoism, Islam, and, well, atheism. The scientific method has everything to do with Christian (and Jewish) inspiration. Judeo-Christian culture is the only culture that has given rise to organized theoretical science. Many cultures (e.g. China) have produced excellent technology and engineering, but only Christian culture has given rise to a conceptual understanding of nature. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/06/jerry_coyne_on_the_scientific_047431.html Christianity Is a Science-Starter, Not a Science-Stopper By Nancy Pearcey http://www.pearceyreport.com/archives/2005/09/post_4.php Science and Theism: Concord, not Conflict* – Robert C. Koons IV. The Dependency of Science Upon Theism (Page 21) Excerpt: Far from undermining the credibility of theism, the remarkable success of science in modern times is a remarkable confirmation of the truth of theism. It was from the perspective of Judeo-Christian theism—and from the perspective alone—that it was predictable that science would have succeeded as it has. Without the faith in the rational intelligibility of the world and the divine vocation of human beings to master it, modern science would never have been possible, and, even today, the continued rationality of the enterprise of science depends on convictions that can be reasonably grounded only in theistic metaphysics. http://www.robkoons.net/media/69b0dd04a9d2fc6dffff80b3ffffd524.pdf Christianity Gave Birth To Each Scientific Discipline - Dr. Henry Fritz Schaefer - video http://vimeo.com/16523153 Christianity and The Birth of Science - Michael Bumbulis, Ph.D Excerpt: Furthermore, many of these founders of science lived at a time when others publicly expressed views quite contrary to Christianity - Hume, Hobbes, Darwin, etc. When Boyle argues against Hobbe's materialism or Kelvin argues against Darwin's assumptions, you don't have a case of "closet atheists." http://ldolphin.org/bumbulis/
bornagain77
November 3, 2011
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corrected link:
Skillet - Awake and Alive http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aJUnltwsqs
bornagain77
November 3, 2011
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ScottAndrews2 you state;
Requiring philosophy to make scientific predictions redefines philosophy as science.
Not exactly, it just grounds philosophy to rigid accountability so that we may discern which philosophy is true. A rigid accountability, which you duly noted, is severely lacking in many philosophical circles. In fact I used it in the following article to, in my very rough manner, separate materialism from theism:
Materialism compared to Theism within the scientific method: http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=dc8z67wz_5fwz42dg9
verse, video, and music;
Colossians 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ. Woman Attempts Suicide Went to Hell, Then To Heaven and Survived - http://www.godtube.com/watch/?v=KDPPZ7NX Kingdom Of God Vs. Kingdom Of Darkness http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4060606 Skillet - Awake and Alive” – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gw20o0gOorI Creed - Bullet http://www.youtube.com/v/KtCHFLMRX78&fs=1&source=uds&autoplay=1
bornagain77
November 3, 2011
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And in the context, I especially don't mean that against Bruce's personal philosophy. We all form a personal way of understanding reality. Some of us just do it more consciously.ScottAndrews2
November 3, 2011
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BA77, Requiring philosophy to make scientific predictions redefines philosophy as science. It always calls to mind Plato reasoning on the immortality of the soul. It's among the most ridiculous things I've ever read. He begins with a vague, meaningless axiom ('If a thing comes to be and comes from its opposite, it can only come from its opposite') and makes a far-reaching application ('The souls of the living must come from the dead.') From where does he determine that there is even a separate 'soul' to be immortal or otherwise? Why would he or anyone else trust such a conclusion to be accurate? It's like something the short guy from The Princess Bride would say when he's trying to figure out which cup is poisoned. (I think that very disconnect between so-called higher reasoning and reality is exactly what was being mocked.) That's a tangent. I don't mean to bash philosophy as a concept, since it means a lot to some people. But often as not it seems to go down such bizarre paths, or leads to discussions of knowledge about knowledge about knowledge, which are never as useful as the the knowledge the knowledge is about is about. Philosophy means "love of wisdom," but in practice it means "the art of opinion about important things." It's harmless as long we recognize that.ScottAndrews2
November 3, 2011
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Bruce, you are completely twisted in your thinking, let's correct your paragraph to show others where you twist stuff:
You’re confusing demanding integrity between science and philosophy. The ability to make a “scientific prediction beforehand” has never always been a requirement for a coherent philosophical system. Philosophies are judged on the basis of their explanatory power, their internal consistency, and whether any known phenomena, facts, or experience contradict them, not especially on their ability to make accurate predictions about reality. My own philosophy (which I have personally molded to fit any evidence that originally countered it) is the product of decades of study rationalizations, exploration ignoring of contrary ideas, spiritual journeying idol making of a god of my own choosing (which when you die just so happens to conveniently become you), and pondering swallowing hook, line, and sinker all of this deeply. It is the best explanation I have found made up out of my imagination so far for ALL of my experience and knowledge. And frankly, I really don’t much care whether you find it adequate or not, because I'm going to believe what I want to be true instead of the actual truth. As I said above, I am under no a illusion that anything I write will be true no matter what evidence comes to light move you off of your obviously entrenched philosophical/religious position.
Music, verse and video:
Liar - Three Dog Night (Studio Recording) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a50_nJj699s Ephesians 5:6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient. 23 MINUTES IN HELL (DVD full length video) by Bill Wiese Testimony of hell, 23 questions about hell http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vv8pLUMDVRc
bornagain77
November 3, 2011
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Bornagain: You're confusing science and philosophy. The ability to make a "scientific prediction beforehand" has never been a requirement for a philosophical system. Philosophies are judged on the basis of their explanatory power, their internal consistency, and whether any known phenomena, facts, or experience contradict them, not on their ability to make predictions. My own philosophy is the product of decades of study, exploration of ideas, spiritual journeying, and pondering all of this deeply. It is the best explanation I have found so far for ALL of my experience and knowledge. And frankly, I really don't much care whether you find it adequate or not. As I said above, I am under no illusion that anything I write will move you off of your obviously entrenched philosophical/religious position.Bruce David
November 3, 2011
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Eugene S, I'm with you - I don't like debating this stuff on the internet. So I'm going to stop too. That being said :) none of those saints are in the Bible either. (That may elicit a rebuttal. I'll let your response be the last word.)ScottAndrews2
November 3, 2011
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Scott, Eocene, The only other thing I will say is that I agree on this with Sts John Chrysostom, Gregory the Theologian, Basil the Great and a host of other Christian saints :)Eugene S
November 3, 2011
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Eocene is dead on. God told Adam that if he sinned he would die. After Adam sinned he told him that he would return to the dust. Moses wrote Genesis so that would have been his understanding. Jacob expected to go to Hell. That's awfully misleading, telling people that they would return to the dust and then surprising them with eternal agony. Paul said that both the good and the bad would be resurrected. Jesus spoke of a fire that never goes out - exactly that fire existed in the valley of Hinnom (Gehenna) outside of Jerusalem. They never threw in living people. They threw the dead bodies of criminals there without a burial. This was a contrast to Jesus' statement that all in the memorial graves would hear his voice and rise again. It meant a one-way trip. Similar symbolism is used in Revelation 20, a lake of fire that burns forever. Death is thrown into the fire, as well as a figurative "wild beast," so it is clearly figurative. Hell is thrown into it, so it cannot be Hell. It says those in Hell come out. That's a pretty clear picture. Add to that the fact that eternal hellfire is incompatible with God's personality and justice, and that it has long been a teaching of pagan religions, and it becomes obvious that it is not a Bible teaching.ScottAndrews2
November 3, 2011
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Eugene S: Scott, "The Orthodox Christian tradition teaches differently." ==== No doubt about it. The apostacy of the 2nd century onwards was more of a political coup more than religious. Whatever group formed the religious Christian thought well long after the death of the Apostles(I'm assuming it was the infant birth of the Holy Roman Empire created in the beginning by Constantine) adopted as a means of control over what was left of ancient pagan Rome by fusing both pagan and Christian ideas to hold together what was left of the empire. Therefore adopting this pagan concept of the hellfire doctrine fit in perfectly to rule the ignorant with fear. Still a tool that is often useful today in various goverments. Even in the Atheistic countries of Soviet Union and Peoples Republic of China , etc, the use of convert or die by the sword in whatever form the threat has always been persuasive in achieving goals. ---- Eugene S: "As this is not a theological blog," ==== Well yes it's not a Theological blog, but it does border on such. BA77's posts bare this out. However, I'm beginning to believe it has more to do with politics and ideological issues, just as do the Evolutionists blogs and websites across the Net. ---- Eugene S: "I’ll just point out the difference without too much arguing. Sheol before and after Christ’s Resurrection are different things and eternal punishment is real." ==== Not true. The Hebrew 'sheol' is identical to the Greek word 'hades' as evidenced by New Testament quotings of Hebrew scriptural texts in which the word 'sheol' is used. The problem is the average Christian today will not take the time to look up original meanings when traditional beliefs held dear for centuries are more favourable when dealing with one's opponants. They've(Laymen) been trained very well not to think for themselves and allow all religious clergy to do their religious thinking and study for them. In the end it offers nothing of value other than further distancing others from any arrival at the truth of a matter. Such as setting up road blocks here in any hopes of intelligent discussion of natural wonders. ---- Eugene S: "The teaching of eternal punishment is strictly Biblical (cf. e.g. the book of Apocalypse, Christ’s own words in the Gospel about the worm that never dies and fire that never goes out). ==== There is no argument about the punishment being eternal. But the punishment as the Bible at Romans 5:12 & 23 says it is death that is the penalty, not Hell. There is no logical reason to torment and suffer someone for all eternity, except from the imaginative corrupt and hideous reasonings and wishes of a wicked Ecclesiastical Hierarchy. Take the case of William Tyndale for example. What possible horrible reasons could the Clergy of that time have justified burning this wonderful man at the stake ??? What we find is an ecclesiastical hierachy not so much as having the mind of Christ as they do Satan. I would say that the scriptural reference at John 8:44 applies to these same ones who accuse God of such terrible deeds as only a Devil and wicked humans could reason up for their own selfish purpose. John 8:44 Amplified Bible (AMP) (44) "You are of your father, the devil, and it is your will to practice the lusts and gratify the desires [which are characteristic] of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a falsehood, he speaks what is natural to him, for he is a liar [himself] and the father of lies and of all that is false."Eocene
November 3, 2011
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Scott, The Orthodox Christian tradition teaches differently. As this is not a theological blog, I'll just point out the difference without too much arguing. Sheol before and after Christ's Resurrection are different things and eternal punishment is real. Before the Redemption, all souls went there as you rightly point out. After the Resurrection it is no longer the case. However, the responsibility of sinners after Christ's Sacrifice is much higher. The teaching of eternal punishment is strictly Biblical (cf. e.g. the book of Apocalypse, Christ's own words in the Gospel about the worm that never dies and fire that never goes out).Eugene S
November 3, 2011
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Actually, in the Bible, "Hell", a.k.a. Sheol, Hades, is just an expression that refers to being dead, in the grave. Note that Ecclesiastes 9:10, Solomon indicates that everyone who reads the verse is going there. In Genesis 37, when Jacob thinks that Joseph is dead, he believes that Joseph is in Hell and that he himself will also go there when he dies. Jacob had no reason to think that either he or Joseph were deserving of any particular punishment. They would simply die like all sinful men. It's just a figurative expression. All the fancy meanings we hear today were added later.ScottAndrews2
November 3, 2011
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Yes, it does. The full truth is that love is inseparable from justice. Another side of the problem of sin is that sin is not only an outward act, it is also a state of our being. So hell, also being a state, is a logical consequence of the state of sin. In fact, our experience of sin is an experience of hell to varying degrees depending on how serious is the sin committed. The theology of love in the aspect of eternal punishment can be found in the works of the Fathers of the Church, notably of St Isaac the Syrian. According to him, sinners will be punished by the same fire as the one in which the righteous will be enjoying, i.e. God's grace. This can be likened to gold and dross, separated by the same melting fire: the same fire cleanses the first and gets rid of the second. If you are really interested to learn about this theological problem, St Isaac's writings are a place to start.Eugene S
November 3, 2011
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Bruce you state: 'There is nothing in my version of pantheism that denies a beginning in time to the Universe.' That's just it Bruce 'your pantheism' is merely post hoc philosophical rationalization that did not a priori predict what has been found by science for the transcendent origin of the universe, thus, much like my disdain for materialistic rationalizations involving multiverses etc.., I find your philosophy completely inadequate scientifically since it dares not put itself in a place of falsification, by making a solid scientific prediction beforehand, such as the transcendent origin of the universe, and yet has the audacity to claim that it can explain everything. i.e. It is simply pathetic rationalizations parading as hard truth and nothing more as far as I am concerned!!!bornagain77
November 3, 2011
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That sounds like Assyrian, Babylonian, and Greek mythology which was eventually superimposed upon Judeo-Christian beliefs right around the same time they started adopting all their festivals (and putting on those giant hats.) If a parent punished their child by placing his hand on a hot stove for even a second, we would regard that, not as loving, but as cruel and sick. It doesn't follow that God would implant that in our conscience and then do far worse to the same child after he dies. Such ideas are not in the Bible. They contradict it.ScottAndrews2
November 3, 2011
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My last comment was addressed to vjtorley. I thought I clicked the button that would put it subordinate to #16. Oh well.Bruce David
November 3, 2011
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Well then, how about an infinite amount of horrendous punishment (an eternity in Hell) in response to a finite amount of "sin" (what a person does of a sinful nature in their lifetime)? Does that sound like unconditional love to you?Bruce David
November 3, 2011
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NOPE. Your just saying protestants are the same . tHe word evangelical segregates. it segregates greatly people of the true faith from regular church going people regardless of titles. very few evangelicals existed in germany then. it was a secular society just as today. Everyone protestant probably had the word evangelical as a historical identity thing. Yet its not the real mccoy whatsoever. In fact Evangelicals anywhere are always been at best 10% of the population unless early America had more. Probably not. the Lutherans and cAtholics in nazi germany were people not influenced by religion. Just as today its a minority of Evangelicals and Catholics who actually believe our stuff and live it out. Watch your species.Robert Byers
November 3, 2011
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Hi everyone, Just a couple of quick comments. 1. Dmullenix: I don't think that killing a tyrant qualifies as murder, if that's the only way to get rid of him. I'd call that defense of innocent human life against a killer. So I don't have any problems with what Claus von Stauffenberg did - although some might argue that he should have acted sooner. FYI: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claus_von_Stauffenberg#Pre-war_misgivings 2. Bruce David: I'm afraid I don't share your intuition that loving someone unconditionally is incompatible with punishing them. What I will say is that certain kinds of punishment are incompatible with unconditional love. Which kinds? Now that's an interesting question.vjtorley
November 2, 2011
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Bornagain: I'll take your points in order. 1. I do not imagine God to be evil. I am merely pointing out that a God (or anyone) who loves unconditionally does not punish. Period. Rather than imagining Him to be evil, I in fact imagine God to be unconditionally loving. You actually do not. 2. Based on what you have stated elsewhere, you appear to believe that this separation of the "wheat from the chafe" is entirely on the basis of whether or not one has accepted Christ as one's personal savior. Therefore, your statement amounts to a belief that "good" people are those who have accepted Christ, and "evil" people are those who have not. It's an odd definition of good and evil, to say the least. 3. There is nothing in my version of pantheism that denies a beginning in time to the Universe. What I do believe is that God, who in His transcendent aspect is eternal and timeless, continually creates everything that exists out of Himself in the eternal Now, including our sense of time. The physical universe and all its properties, including the Big Bang, are manifestations of the operation of the Mind of God. 4. You still pointedly refuse to grapple with my contention that unconditional love is incompatible with judgement, condemnation, and punishment. Instead, you deflect the conversation to the question of pantheism. This stratagem also reminds me of Darwinist debate tactics. 5. In any case, I am under no illusion that anything I write will move you off your position regarding the truth of Christian dogma as you understand it. I write in hopes that at least one person might be moved by my words to open themselves to the possibility that their religion, whatever it is, might not have the final answers to all questions, that perhaps there is something they don't know, the knowing of which could change everything. I hope to open people to new spiritual possibilities. I do this because I look around me at the world as it is, and I notice that the world's religions have collectively failed to create a world of peace, harmony, and love, and in fact have contributed significantly to the disharmony, pain, suffering, and killing that exist on the planet. I am convinced that this is a reflection of beliefs found in all religions, beliefs such as that we are separate from each other and from God, that "my" religion is the one true religion, that God punishes those who do not believe in the beliefs of "my" religion (so therefore I may do the same with impunity), and others. Further, I notice that for the first time in history, we have the technological capacity to destroy ourselves and our planet as we know it. Therefore, I believe that new spiritual understandings are essential if we wish to preserve this beautiful planet and therefore survive as a race.Bruce David
November 2, 2011
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Bruce, no matter how much you may want to believe pantheism to be true, and no matter how much you imagine God to be evil for permanently separating the evil from the good (the wheat from the chafe), pantheism is simply absurd on several levels. From a purely scientific point of view, your philosophy does not even make it to first base with me since if failed to postulate the beginning of the universe!!! If your philosophy is/was so spectacularly wrong about how reality came to be in the first place, just as materialism was/is, why in blue blazes do you even give it the time of day as to anything else???bornagain77
November 2, 2011
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CY - the last thing I want to do is simplify. I am all for laws and other pragmatic rules which are judged on their consequences. What I am against is rigid rules that are followed because they are the rules. The rules should be judged on (our best estimate of) their results, and the results should be judged on our "attitude of the heart" towards those results. Wrt to the decision to hasten the end of the terminally ill. There are many different circumstances and I am not at all sure that it is possible to devise a law or principle which covers them satisfactorily. Of course most healthcare workers are focussed on life and ease of suffering. But people do get into situations where they are in pain and want to die. Pragmatically for most doctors round the world pain killers mean morphine and a high dose will hasten the patient's death. The decision has to be made. To hold back on the morphine is to lengthen the period of pain - often against the patient's wishes. In some circumstances, I would be furious with someone who objected to the extra morphine on some theoretical moral principle (as opposed to pragmatic consequences).markf
November 2, 2011
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Bornagain: "Bruce, If you feel that you are able to face the perfection required of God’s judgement on your own merit without the propitiation offered freely by Christ, you are simply living in denial..." You're right. I deny that an unconditionally loving being, God or anyone else, will ever judge, condemn, or punish. To do so would contradict the unconditional love. You have never answered that argument, namely that unconditional love on the one hand and judgement, condemnation, and punishment on the other are mutually exclusive. And since we all agree that God's love is unconditional, ergo, it is logically impossible for Him to punish anyone. (Note: this does not preclude consequences for actions, but consequences that are consistent with unconditional love do not include any kind of punishment, and certainly not eternal damnation.) This, by the way, is very good news. I'm telling you that God actually LOVES us. Not some half baked, I'll love you as long as you do what I want you to kind of love, but real love, love that doesn't quit, love that's there no matter what. We actually have nothing to fear from God! Isn't that spectacularly exciting?!Bruce David
November 1, 2011
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Correction: A DNR is not likely to apply to someone in a coma.CannuckianYankee
November 1, 2011
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"And as you can see I am just fine with “attitudes of the heart”. But the person who refuses to offer an overdose of morphine to hasten the end of someone who is dying in agony, is, it seems to me, putting aside an “attitude of the heart” because of a rule they were told or read in a book." It's called a hippocratic oath, and it prevents doctors from nilly-willy killing people - with the exception of abortion doctors, of course, but they ain't really docs. Seriously though, the decision to end someone's life should not be in the hands of healthcare workers. I can see (legally) if someone's been in a coma and has signed a DNR, but when you give them that power all sorts of abuses can occur other than simply putting someone out of their misery. There are no easy answers to this, but I think you will find that many health-care workers and most doctors do not want that responsibility. That's why they have DNR's, but In my view even that's going a bit too far. Some people have survived comas up to several years. You can almost bet that if infanticide (of the Kevorkian kind) were legalized we would find a lot of cases of murder by injection or pulling the plug. Do we want that kind of society? Furthermore, there's a lot of research regarding pain management for people who are suffering. That research is being done because of people who care about people who are suffering but do not agree with the alternative you're suggesting. The results have even helped those who are not immediately dying. If we had enacted laws like you seem to be suggesting, much of that research might have come to an end or never begun, because people would have taken the easy way out; just like people take the easy way out with the number of abortions every year in this country; which is astronomical. The best policy is respect for human life. Ease peoples' suffering as much as you can and make them as comfortable as you can when their time comes. I firmly believe that and I don't think it's heartless, as I believe most healthcare workers - especially those who work in intensive care and cancer wards would agree. I worked in healthcare for a number of years, and it's not an occupation centered on death, but on life and ease of suffering. I understand your views and why you have them, but it's not as simple as you make it sound.CannuckianYankee
November 1, 2011
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