Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Where is the difference here?

Categories
Intelligent Design
Share
Facebook
Twitter/X
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Since my Cornell conference contribution has generated dozens of critical comments on another thread, I feel compelled to respond. I hope this is the last time I ever have to talk about this topic, I’m really tired of it.

Here are two scenarios:

1. A tornado hits a town, turning houses and cars into rubble. Then, another tornado hits, and turns the rubble back into houses and cars.

2. The atoms on a barren planet spontaneously rearrange themselves, with the help of solar energy and under the direction of four unintelligent forces of physics alone, into humans, cars, high-speed computers, libraries full of science texts and encyclopedias, TV sets, airplanes and spaceships. Then, the sun explodes into a supernova, and, with the help of solar energy, all of these things turn back into dust.

It is almost universally agreed in the scientific community that the second stage (but not the first) of scenario 1 would violate the second law of thermodynamics, at least the more general statements of this law (eg, “In an isolated system, the direction of spontaneous change is from order to disorder” see footnote 4 in my paper). It is also almost universally agreed that the first stage of scenario 2 does not violate the second law. (Of course, everyone agrees that there is no conflict in the second stage.) Why, what is the difference here?

Every general physics book which discusses evolution and the second law argues that the first stage of scenario 2 does not violate the second law because the Earth is an open system, and entropy can decrease in an open system as long as the decrease is compensated by increases outside the Earth. I gave several examples of this argument in section 1, if you can find a single general physics text anywhere which makes a different argument in claiming that evolution does not violate the second law, let me know which one.

Well, this same compensation argument can equally well be used to argue that the second tornado in scenario 1 does not violate the second law: the Earth is an open system, tornados receive their energy from the sun, any decrease in entropy due to a tornado that turns rubble into houses and cars is easily compensated by increases outside the Earth. It is difficult to define or measure entropy in scenario 2, but it is equally difficult in scenario 1.

I’ll save you the trouble: there is only one reason why nearly everyone agrees that the second law is violated in scenario 1 and not scenario 2: because there is a widely believed theory as to how the evolution of life and of human intelligence happened, while there is no widely believed theory as to how a tornado could turn rubble into houses and cars. There is no other argument which can be made as to why the second law is not violated in scenario 2, that could not equally well be applied to argue that it is not violated in scenario 1 either.

Well, in this paper, and every other piece I have written on this topic, including my new Bio-Complexity paper , and the video below, I have acknowledged that, if you really can explain scenario 2, then it does not violate the basic principle behind the second law. In my conclusions in the Cornell contribution, I wrote:

Of course, one can still argue that the spectacular increase in order seen on Earth is consistent with the underlying principle behind the second law, because what has happened here is not really extremely improbable. One can still argue that once upon a time…a collection of atoms formed by pure chance that was able to duplicate itself, and these complex collections of atoms were able to pass their complex structures on to their descendents generation after generation, even correcting errors. One can still argue that, after a long time, the accumulation of genetic accidents resulted in greater and greater information content in the DNA of these more and more complex collections of atoms, and eventually something called “intelligence” allowed some of these collections of atoms to design cars and trucks and spaceships and nuclear power plants. One can still argue that it only seems extremely improbable, but really isn’t, that under the right conditions, the influx of stellar energy into a planet could cause atoms to rearrange themselves into computers and laser printers and the Internet.

Of course, if you can come up with a nice theory on how tornados could turn rubble into houses and cars, you can argue that the second law is not violated in scenario 1 either.

Elizabeth and KeithS, you are welcome to go back into your complaints about what an idiot Sewell is to think that dust spontaneously turning into computers and the Internet might violate “the basic principle behind the second law,” and how this bad paper shows that all of the Cornell contributions were bad, but please first give me another reason, other than the one I acknowledged, why there is a conflict with the second law (or at least the fundamental principle behind the second law) in scenario 1 and not in scenario 2? (Or perhaps you suddenly now don’t see any conflict with the second law in scenario 1 either, that is an acceptable answer, but now you are in conflict with the scientific consensus!)

And if you can’t think of another reason, what in my paper do you disagree with, it seems we are in complete agreement!!

Comments
Cantor
Congratulations. You’ve finally arrived. That’s the argument you should have been making all along, instead of denying (or pretending) that the only known definition of entropy is the thermo/energy/work one, and berating Sewell for knowing that it’s not.
So why does Sewell even mention the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, and energy, if that's not what he's talking about? This is exactly what I've been saying all along! That the 2nd Law (and whether the Earth is an "open" or "closed" system) is utterly irrelevant to his argument, which is merely Dembski's CSI argument, i.e. a probability/information argument. Which has its problems indeed, but nothing to the problem of apparently claiming that evolution, if the cause of living things, would mean that the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics has been violated! I am still unclear whether he thinks it's fine if the violator is a Designer (or merely a designer), or whether he thinks that if an apparent violation is by a Designer (or designer) it isn't a violation! Or neither.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 4, 2013
July
07
Jul
4
04
2013
12:15 PM
12
12
15
PM
PDT
Cantor:
Seriously? If you can’t make the connection, substitute a shoebox with 100 coins lying on the bottom, all heads, for the new deck of cards. Shake the box instead of shuffling the deck. Put the box on top of the book.
That is not a parallel example. If you have a box with coins lying all heads, jiggling the box is likely to give you a selection of heads and tails, and the more you jiggle, the more equal the proportions are likely to be Jiggling will thus increase the Shannon entropy of the arrangement (and if the "coins" represented "particles" and "Heads" one energy state and "Tails" another, thermodynamic entropy too), because there are far more ways of arranging an equal proportion of Head and Tails than there are of arranging unequal proportions. However, your example was of a deck of cards, shuffled. There are just as many ways of rearranging a shuffled deck as an unshuffled deck! So the Shannon entropy remains unchanged by the shuffle. On the other hand, if you were to somehow change all the suits to hearts, you would have reduced the Shannon entropy of the arrangement. The thermodynamic entropy, however, is slightly increased when you raise the deck, because that deck can now, potentially, do work. You have added and stored energy, and with a small amount of additional energy, by giving it a nudge, you can make the table and air heat up a little when it falls back on to the table. But neither Shannon entropy nor thermodynamic entropy have anything to do with "order" as in "the order in which the items are arranged". They have to do with the number of possible ways in which the items can be arranged. 52 cards can be arranged 52! ways. 99 coins Heads Up and 1 Tails up can be rearranged 100 ways (without flipping them over), but 50 Heads up and 50 Tails up can be arranged 100!/((100-50)!*50!) ways. Equally, the items of a junkyard arranged neatly in rows have the same amount of Shannon entropy as the same junkyard whether rearranged by engineers or by a tornado. They probably have the same amount of thermodynamic entropy too.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 4, 2013
July
07
Jul
4
04
2013
12:08 PM
12
12
08
PM
PDT
Liddle@111: OK, good, thanks. So which arrangement has the greatest number of corresponding microstates, a junkyard before a tornado, or a junkyard after a tornado? Similarly, which arrangement has the greatest number of corresponding microstates, the parts of a self-build computer before you have assembled it, or the parts of a self-build computer after you have assembled it?
Congratulations. You've finally arrived. That's the argument you should have been making all along, instead of denying (or pretending) that the only known definition of entropy is the thermo/energy/work one, and berating Sewell for knowing that it's not.cantor
July 4, 2013
July
07
Jul
4
04
2013
09:45 AM
9
09
45
AM
PDT
Liddle@112: That doesn’t appear to follow from your link. Where does it say anything that implies that a shuffled deck has more entropy (by any definition) than an ordered deck?
Seriously? If you can't make the connection, substitute a shoebox with 100 coins lying on the bottom, all heads, for the new deck of cards. Shake the box instead of shuffling the deck. Put the box on top of the book.
Young&Freedman, quoted @84: To make the connection to the concept of entropy, note that N coins that are all heads constitutes a completely ordered macroscopic state: the description “all heads” completely specifies the state of each one of the N coins. The same is true if the coins are all tails. But the macroscopic description “half heads, half tails” by itself tells you very little about the state (heads or tails) of each individual coin. We say that the system is disordered because we know so little about its microscopic state. Compared to the state “all heads” or “all tails”, the state “half heads, half tails” has a much greater number of possible microstates, much greater disorder, and hence much greater entropy (which is a quantitative measure of disorder).
cantor
July 4, 2013
July
07
Jul
4
04
2013
09:40 AM
9
09
40
AM
PDT
Elizabeth @99:
So while the 2nd Law always boils down to thermodynamics, you can also think in terms of macroscopic systems: a low entropy system is one in which more work can be done, after which the entropy of the system increases, and less work can be done.
Good, so if we have a macroscopic biological system that can do more work than the same molecules randomly floating around in a dish, then we are dealing with a thermodynamic issue. And what is it that prevents those randomly floating molecules from coming together again to form a macroscopic system that can perform more work?
Of course there are [metabolic or heat transfer or similar biological processes in living systems about which the 2nd Law might have something to say]. And biological processes absolutely do not violate the 2nd Law.
Nobody ever said they did.
Granville’s paper claims that designed things and biological things are evidence of a violation of the 2nd Law of thermodynamics. They are not. There is no violation of the 2nd Law. The fact that a tornado cannot build a house is not evidence that when a person builds a house the 2nd Law is violated. It isn’t. If Granville wants to propose another Law that is violated when a person builds a house, or a biological organism develops, or evolves, then fine (Dembski has attempted to do so). But his argument from the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics is patently false because the 2nd Law is not violated by such things, whether you interpret it at the microscopic of macroscopic level.
Sheesh, we must all be talking past each other because I'm wondering if you (and keiths) really believe Granville is arguing that the 2nd Law has been violated in biology, or whether you understand that he is arguing that it would be if certain things just came together spontaneously. Look, suppose someone came along claiming to have invented a perpetual motion machine and you said they were crazy because such a thing would violate the laws of thermodynamics. Then a third party listening in started harping on your conclusion and repeatedly and publicly asserting to everyone that you had claimed the "laws of thermodynamics had been violated," you'd probably get a little peeved. Granville has never said the 2nd Law has been violated and -- contra your silly statement -- has certainly never said it is violated in building a house or something like that. What he is saying, as near as I can tell, is that if what evolutionists claim happened actually had happened, then it would be a violation of the broader principles underlying the 2nd law. Everyone knows that intelligent beings can design and build things that harness energy and perform work in ways that would not naturally occur under the 2nd Law acting with the primary forces of nature. Granville is trying to say: "Everyone recognizes this in the case of human design. Why, when we see the same thing in living systems, does the inference just get tossed aside and we end up with silly assertions like 'Well, the Earth is an open system' and so on?" He is saying: look, there is this thermodynamic issue to consider (which evolutionists like Pross acknowledge in the paper I linked to). The response from evolutionists has been to claim, variously: (i) thermodynamics is irrelevant to living systems [false], (ii) thermodynamics only relates to heat dissipation [rational, but highly arguable], (iii) the Earth is an open system and it gets compensated for somewhere else [silly and misses the whole point], or (iv) there is a new concept (like "kinetic states") that can resolve the thermodynamic issue and make the implausible plausible [absurd].Eric Anderson
July 4, 2013
July
07
Jul
4
04
2013
09:27 AM
9
09
27
AM
PDT
cantor:
The Young & Freedman entropy of the deck is higher. The correct answer seems to be (4).
That doesn't appear to follow from your link. Where does it say anything that implies that a shuffled deck has more entropy (by any definition) than an ordered deck?Elizabeth B Liddle
July 4, 2013
July
07
Jul
4
04
2013
09:20 AM
9
09
20
AM
PDT
OK, good, thanks. So which arrangement has the greatest number of corresponding microstates, a junkyard before a tornado, or a junkyard after a tornado? Similarly, which arrangement has the greatest number of corresponding microstates, the parts of a self-build computer before you have assembled it, or the parts of a self-build computer after you have assembled it?Elizabeth B Liddle
July 4, 2013
July
07
Jul
4
04
2013
09:16 AM
9
09
16
AM
PDT
Liddle@108: Would someone like to tell me what they mean by a “low probability state”?
Young & Freedman quoted @84: For any system the most probable macroscopic state is the one with the greatest number of corresponding microscopic states, which is also the macroscopic state with the greatest disorder and the greatest entropy.cantor
July 4, 2013
July
07
Jul
4
04
2013
08:38 AM
8
08
38
AM
PDT
Liddle@107: The thermodynamic entropy is slightly lower... The shannon entropy of the deck is identical.
. The Young & Freedman entropy of the deck is higher. The correct answer seems to be (4).cantor
July 4, 2013
July
07
Jul
4
04
2013
08:33 AM
8
08
33
AM
PDT
Would someone like to tell me what they mean by a "low probability state"? Granville? cs3?Elizabeth B Liddle
July 4, 2013
July
07
Jul
4
04
2013
08:20 AM
8
08
20
AM
PDT
The thermodynamic entropy is slightly lower, but yours is slighly higher. The shannon entropy of the deck is identical.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 4, 2013
July
07
Jul
4
04
2013
08:19 AM
8
08
19
AM
PDT
There's a small book and a deck of cards sitting on a table. The deck is brand new (and sorted, as most new decks are). I pick up the deck and shuffle it thoroughly, then place it on top of the book, so it is now 1" above the table top. Multiple choice: The entropy of the deck of cards is now: 1) lower 2) higher 3) the same 4) it depends on your definition of entropycantor
July 4, 2013
July
07
Jul
4
04
2013
08:15 AM
8
08
15
AM
PDT
Evidence Elizabeth- why is it that you cannot produce any evidence that refutes Dr Sewell, CS3, KF, Eric, et al.?
The fact that a tornado cannot build a house is not evidence that when a person builds a house the 2nd Law is violated.
LoL! No Lizzie, if nature, operating freely built the house THEN the 2LoT would be violated.Joe
July 4, 2013
July
07
Jul
4
04
2013
07:04 AM
7
07
04
AM
PDT
And cs3 is making exactly the same error! Which is to equate "order" with "low entropy" and also with "low probability". Will one of you please say what you mean by a low probability state? What possible meaning can that phrase have unless you also specify the generative process under which you are estimating that probability? And once you have stated that, will you please explain why any process by which an otherwise low-probability state becomes probable is a violation of the 2nd Law of thermodynamics?Elizabeth B Liddle
July 4, 2013
July
07
Jul
4
04
2013
02:08 AM
2
02
08
AM
PDT
Thanks CS3 (comment 84). Your summary of my arguments is better than my original!Granville Sewell
July 4, 2013
July
07
Jul
4
04
2013
01:52 AM
1
01
52
AM
PDT
From Collin #2:
Granville, May I suggest an addition to your theory (forgive me if you’ve already said this before): “It is evident that entropy is not leaving the earth fast enough to compensate for the order developing on the earth.” This assertion would require some kind of measurement of entropy and order and applying it over the billions of years of earth’s existence. That would be difficult, but I wonder if a good estimate is possible.
Already done. A couple of years ago, I posted an analysis giving a lower bound of 3.3e14 J/K per second for the net entropy flux leaving Earth (that's at least 3.7e14 J/K per second leaving Earth as thermal radiation, minus 3.83e13 J/K per second incoming due as sunlight). Note that this is a lower bound; the actual value will be somewhat higher (though it's probably within a factor of two). If that rate has been constant over the 4.54 billion years Earth has been around (it hasn't, but probably close enough), it comes to 4.7e31 J/K. Emory Bunn's paper "Evolution and the second law of thermodynamics" estimates the entropy decrease for life at 1e44 * k (where k is Boltzmann's constant) = 1.4e21 J/K. If this is even vaguely close to correct, the Earth's entropy flux is clearly large enough to allow for the evolution, growth, reproduction, etc of life. I'm not knowledgeable enough about biochemistry to evaluate that part of Bunn's calculation, but the only relevant critique I've seen (Sewell's "Poker Entropy and the Theory of Compensation", which doesn't seem to be online anymore) is based entirely on the false claim that
According to Styer and Bunn, the Boltzmann formula, which relates the thermal entropy of an ideal gas state to the number of possible microstates, and thus to the probability of the state, can be used to compute the change in thermal entropy associated with any change in probability: not just the probability of an ideal gas state, but the probability of anything.
Since Bunn's calculation doesn't relate to probability at all, only the relation between the number of microstates ("multiplicity") and entropy, and this relation does hold universally, the criticism is misdirected.Gordon Davisson
July 4, 2013
July
07
Jul
4
04
2013
01:38 AM
1
01
38
AM
PDT
Could someone help me out here by giving some examples of objects or processes designed and built by humans which violate the second law of thermodynamics?steveh
July 4, 2013
July
07
Jul
4
04
2013
01:32 AM
1
01
32
AM
PDT
Eric:
Look, the only reason the sun came up is because a number of evolution apologists have said, when confronted with questions, “But the Earth is an open system; it receives energy from the Sun and the Sun’s entropy is increasing to compensate for what happens on Earth.”
Confronted with what questions, Eric? Are you still under the impression that local entropy increases on earth are violations of the 2nd Law? I accept keiths' argument that even if we consider the earth a closed system, the 2nd Law is not violated, because local increases in entropy on earth are gained at the cost of decreases in the surroundings. Are you saying that you think that the 2nd Law IS violated on earth and that considering the earth as an open system doesn't help? In fact does anyone here still think that the 2nd Law is violated by the existence or the artefacts of biological organisms here on earth?Elizabeth B Liddle
July 4, 2013
July
07
Jul
4
04
2013
01:01 AM
1
01
01
AM
PDT
Eric:
1. So the 2nd Law relates only to heat distribution, in your view?
Ultimately, yes. That's why it's called the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. But you need to read it in the context of the 1st Law of Thermodynamics, which is also the Law of Conservation of Energy:
the change in the internal energy of a closed system is equal to the amount of heat supplied to the system, minus the amount of work done by the system on its surroundings.
So when you lift a brick from the floor to high shelf, you are doing work, and your entropy increases. But you have decreased the local entropy of the brick. It doesn't get "hotter", but you are increasing its capacity to make the floor hotter when the shelf gives way and the brick falls. So while the 2nd Law always boils down to thermodynamics, you can also think in terms of macroscopic systems: a low entropy system is one in which more work can be done, after which the entropy of the system increases, and less work can be done.
2. And are there any metabolic or heat transfer or similar biological processes in living systems about which the 2nd Law might have something to say?
Of course there are. And biological processes absolutely do not violate the 2nd Law.
3. If the 2nd Law applies only to heat distribution, is there any similar principle at work with, say, functional mechanical structure or information?
There is certainly an almost identical concept in information theory, i.e. Shannon entropy, but, interestingly, Shannon entropy and thermodynamic entropy are inverselycorrelated. The more thermodynamic entropy increase, the more Shannon entropy decreases. And functional mechanical structure is also covered by the 2nd Law, as I keep saying. A tornado that lifts a sofa into a tree has increased the capacity of the sofa to do work, and so has reduced the entropy of the arrangement of furniture, by virtue of an increase in the entropy of the tornado. Granville's paper claims that designed things and biological things are evidence of a violation of the 2nd Law of thermodynamics. They are not. There is no violation of the 2nd Law. The fact that a tornado cannot build a house is not evidence that when a person builds a house the 2nd Law is violated. It isn't. If Granville wants to propose another Law that is violated when a person builds a house, or a biological organism develops, or evolves, then fine (Dembski has attempted to do so). But his argument from the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics is patently false because the 2nd Law is not violated by such things, whether you interpret it at the microscopic of macroscopic level. To quote the Flanders and Swann song I linked earlier:
The first law of thermodynamics Heat is work and work is heat (x 2) Very good The second law of thermodynamics Heat cannot of itself pass from one body to a hotter body (x 2) Heat won't pass from a cooler to a hotter (x 2) You can try it if you like but you far better notter (x 2) 'Cause the cold in the cooler will be hotter as a ruler (x 2) Because the hotter body's heat will pass through the cooler Heat is work and work is heat And work is heat and heat is work Heat will pass by conduction (x 2) And heat will pass by convection (x 2) And heat will pass by radiation (x 2) And that's a physical law Heat is work and work's a curse And all the heat in the universe It's gonna cool down as it can't increase Then there'll be no more work And they'll be perfect peace Really? Yeah, that's entropy, man! And all because of the second law of thermodynamics, which lays down That you can't pass heat from the cooler to the hotter Try it if you like but you far better notter 'Cause the cold in the cooler will get hotter as a ruler 'Cause the hotter body's heat will pass through the cooler Oh, you can't pass heat from the cooler to the hotter You can try it if you like but you far better notter 'Cause the cold in the cooler will get hotter as a ruler That's the physical law Ooh, I'm hot! What? That's because you've been working Oh, Beatles? Nothing! That's the first and second law of thermodynamics
Elizabeth B Liddle
July 4, 2013
July
07
Jul
4
04
2013
12:45 AM
12
12
45
AM
PDT
CS3, re #84: Well done. KFkairosfocus
July 4, 2013
July
07
Jul
4
04
2013
12:18 AM
12
12
18
AM
PDT
F/N b: Going on to Appendix I in the same always linked note: ____________ >>Let us reflect on a few remarks on the link from thermodynamics to information: 1] TMLO: In 1984, this well-received work provided the breakthrough critical review on the origin of life that led to the modern design school of thought in science. The three online chapters, as just linked, should be carefully read to understand why design thinkers think that the origin of FSCI in biology is a significant and unmet challenge to neo-darwinian thought. (Cf also Klyce's relatively serious and balanced assessment, from a panspermia advocate. Sewell's remarks here are also worth reading. So is Sarfati's discussion of Dawkins' Mt Improbable.) 2] But open systems can increase their order: This is the "standard" dismissal argument on thermodynamics, but it is both fallacious and often resorted to by those who should know better. My own note on why this argument should be abandoned is: a] Clausius is the founder of the 2nd law, and the first standard example of an isolated system -- one that allows neither energy nor matter to flow in or out -- is instructive, given the "closed" subsystems [i.e. allowing energy to pass in or out] in it. Pardon the substitute for a real diagram, for now: Isol System: | | (A, at Thot) --> d'Q, heat --> (B, at T cold) | | b] Now, we introduce entropy change dS >/= d'Q/T . . . "Eqn" A.1 c] So, dSa >/= -d'Q/Th, and dSb >/= +d'Q/Tc, where Th > Tc d] That is, for system, dStot >/= dSa + dSb >/= 0, as Th > Tc . . . "Eqn" A.2 e] But, observe: the subsystems A and B are open to energy inflows and outflows, and the entropy of B RISES DUE TO THE IMPORTATION OF RAW ENERGY. f] The key point is that when raw energy enters a body, it tends to make its entropy rise. This can be envisioned on a simple model of a gas-filled box with piston-ends at the left and the right: ================================= ||::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::|| ||::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::||=== ||::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::|| ================================= 1: Consider a box as above, filled with tiny perfectly hard marbles [so collisions will be elastic], scattered similar to a raisin-filled Christmas pudding (pardon how the textual elements give the impression of a regular grid, think of them as scattered more or less hap-hazardly as would happen in a cake). 2: Now, let the marbles all be at rest to begin with. 3: Then, imagine that a layer of them up against the leftmost wall were given a sudden, quite, quite hard push to the right [the left and right ends are pistons]. 4: Simply on Newtonian physics, the moving balls would begin to collide with the marbles to their right, and in this model perfectly elastically. So, as they hit, the other marbles would be set in motion in succession. A wave of motion would begin, rippling from left to right 5:As the glancing angles on collision will vary at random, the marbles hit and the original marbles would soon begin to bounce in all sorts of directions. Then, they would also deflect off the walls, bouncing back into the body of the box and other marbles, causing the motion to continue indefinitely. 6: Soon, the marbles will be continually moving in all sorts of directions, with varying speeds, forming what is called the Maxwell-Boltzmann distribution, a bell-shaped curve. 7: And, this pattern would emerge independent of the specific initial arrangement or how we impart motion to it, i.e. this is an attractor in the phase space: once the marbles are set in motion somehow, and move around and interact, they will soon enough settle into the M-B pattern. E.g. the same would happen if a small charge of explosive were set off in the middle of the box, pushing our the balls there into the rest, and so on. And once the M-B pattern sets in, it will strongly tend to continue. (That is, the process is ergodic.) 8: A pressure would be exerted on the walls of the box by the average force per unit area from collisions of marbles bouncing off the walls, and this would be increased by pushing in the left or right walls (which would do work to push in against the pressure, naturally increasing the speed of the marbles just like a ball has its speed increased when it is hit by a bat going the other way, whether cricket or baseball). Pressure rises, if volume goes down due to compression. (Also, volume of a gas body is not fixed.) 9: Temperature emerges as a measure of the average random kinetic energy of the marbles in any given direction, left, right, to us or away from us. Compressing the model gas does work on it, so the internal energy rises, as the average random kinetic energy per degree of freedom rises. Compression will tend to raise temperature. (We could actually deduce the classical — empirical — P, V, T gas laws [and variants] from this sort of model.) 10: Thus, from the implications of classical, Newtonian physics, we soon see the hard little marbles moving at random, and how that randomness gives rise to gas-like behaviour. It also shows how there is a natural tendency for systems to move from more orderly to more disorderly states, i.e. we see the outlines of the second law of thermodynamics. 11: Is the motion really random? First, we define randomness in the relevant sense:
In probability and statistics, a random process is a repeating process whose outcomes follow no describable deterministic pattern, but follow a probability distribution, such that the relative probability of the occurrence of each outcome can be approximated or calculated. For example, the rolling of a fair six-sided die in neutral conditions may be said to produce random results, because one cannot know, before a roll, what number will show up. However, the probability of rolling any one of the six rollable numbers can be calculated.
12: This can be seen by the extension of the thought experiment of imagining a large collection of more or less identically set up boxes, each given the same push at the same time, as closely as we can make it. At first, the marbles in the boxes will behave very much alike, but soon, they will begin to diverge as to path. The same overall pattern of M-B statistics will happen, but each box will soon be going its own way. That is, the distribution pattern is the same but the specific behaviour in each case will be dramatically different. 13: Q: Why? 14: A: This is because tiny, tiny differences between the boxes, and the differences in the vibrating atoms in the walls and pistons, as well as tiny irregularities too small to notice in the walls and pistons will make small differences in initial and intervening states -- perfectly smooth boxes and pistons are an unattainable ideal. Since the system is extremely nonlinear, such small differences will be amplified, making the behaviour diverge as time unfolds. A chaotic system is not predictable in the long term. So, while we can deduce a probabilistic distribution, we cannot predict the behaviour in detail, across time. Laplace's demon who hoped to predict the future of the universe from the covering laws and the initial conditions, is out of a job. 15: To see diffusion in action, imagine that at the beginning, the balls in the right half were red, and those in the left half were black. After a little while, as they bounce and move, the balls would naturally mix up, and it would be very unlikely indeed — through logically possible — for them to spontaneously un-mix, as the number of possible combinations of position, speed and direction where the balls are mixed up is vastly more than those where they are all red to the right, all alack to the left or something similar. (This can be calculated, by breaking the box up into tiny little cells such that they would have at most one ball in them, and we can analyse each cell on occupancy, colour, location, speed and direction of motion. thus, we have defined a phase or state space, going beyond a mere configuration space that just looks at locations.) 16: So, from the orderly arrangement of laws and patterns of initial motion, we see how randomness emerges through the sensitive dependence of the behaviour on initial and intervening conditions. There would be no specific, traceable deterministic pattern that one could follow or predict for the behaviour of the marbles, through we could work out an overall statistical distribution, and could identify overall parameters such as volume, pressure and temperature. 17: For Osmosis, let us imagine that the balls are of different size, and that we have two neighbouring boxes with a porous wall between them; but only the smaller marbles can pass through the holes. If the smaller marbles were initially on say the left side, soon, they would begin to pass through to the right, until they were evenly distributed, so that on average as many small balls would pass left as were passing right, i.e., we see dynamic equilibrium. [this extends to evaporation and the vapour pressure of a liquid, once we add in that the balls have a short-range attraction that at even shorter ranges turns into a sharp repulsion, i.e they are hard.] 18: For a solid, imagine that the balls in the original box are now connected through springs in a cubical grid. The initial push will now set the balls to vibrating back and forth, and the same pattern of distributed vibrations will emerge, as one ball pulls on its neigbours in the 3-D array. (For a liquid, allow about 3% of holes in the grid, and let the balls slide over one another, making new connexions, some of them distorted. The fixed volume but inability to keep a shape that defines a liquid will emerge. The push on the liquid will have much the same effect as for the solid, except that it will also lead to flows.) 19: Randomness is thus credibly real, and naturally results from work on or energy injected into a body composed of microparticles, even in a classical Newtonian world; whether it is gas, solid or liquid. Raw injection of energy into a body tends to increase its disorder, and this is typically expressed in its temperature rising. 20: Quantum theory adds to the picture, but the above is enough to model a lot of what we see as we look at bulk and transport properties of collections of micro-particles. 21: Indeed, even viscosity comes out naturally, as . . . if there are are boxes stacked top and bottom that are sliding left or right relative to one another, and suddenly the intervening walls are removed, the gas-balls would tend to diffuse up and down from one stream tube to another, so their drift velocities will tend to even out, The slower moving stream tubes exert a dragging effect on the faster moving ones. 22: And many other phenomena can be similarly explained and applied, based on laws and processes that we can test and validate, and their consequences in simplified but relevant models of the real world. 23: When we see such a close match, especially when quantum principles are added in, it gives us high confidence that we are looking at a map of reality. Not the reality itself, but a useful map. And, that map tells us that thanks to sensitive dependence on initial conditions, randomness will be a natural part of the micro-world, and that when energy is added to a body its randomness tends to increase, i.e we see the principle of entropy, and why simply opening up a body to receive energy is not going to answer to the emergence of functional internal organisation. 24: For, organised states will be deeply isolated in the set of possible configurations. Indeed, if we put a measure of possible configurations in terms of say binary digits, bits, if we have 1,000 two-state elements there are already 1.07*10^301 possible configs. The whole observed universe searching at one state per Planck time, could not go through enough states of its 10^80 or so atoms, across its thermodynamically credible lifespan -- about 50 mn times the 13.7 BY said to have elapsed form the big bang -- to go through more than about 10^150 states. That is, the whole cosmos could not search more than a negligible fraction of the space. The hay stack could be positively riddled with needles, but at that rate we have not had any serious search at all. 25: That is, there is a dominant distribution, not a detailed plan a la Laplace’s (finite) Demon who could predict the long term path of the world on its initial conditions and sufficient calculating power and time. 26: But equally, since short term interventions that are subtle can have significant effects, there is room for the intelligent and sophisticated intervention; e.g. through a Maxwell’s Demon who can spot faster moving and slower moving molecules and open/shut a shutter to set one side hotter and the other colder in a partitioned box. Providing he has to take active steps to learn which molecules are moving faster/slower in the desired direction, Brillouin showed that he will be within the second law of thermodynamics. . . . So, plainly, for the injection of energy to instead do predictably and consistently do something useful, it needs to be coupled to an energy conversion device. g] When such energy conversion devices, as in the cell, exhibit FSCI, the question of their origin becomes material, and in that context, their spontaneous origin is strictly logically possible but -- from the above -- negligibly different from zero probability on the gamut of the observed cosmos. (And, kindly note: the cell is an energy importer with an internal energy converter. That is, the appropriate entity in the model is B and onward B' below. Presumably as well, the prebiotic soup would have been energy importing, and so materialistic chemical evolutionary scenarios therefore have the challenge to credibly account for the origin of the FSCI-rich energy converting mechanisms in the cell relative to Monod's "chance + necessity" [cf also Plato's remarks] only.) h] Now, as just mentioned, certain bodies have in them energy conversion devices: they COUPLE input energy to subsystems that harvest some of the energy to do work, exhausting sufficient waste energy to a heat sink that the overall entropy of the system is increased. Illustratively, for heat engines -- and (in light of exchanges with email correspondents circa March 2008) let us note: a good slice of classical thermodynamics arose in the context of studying, idealising and generalising from steam engines [which exhibit organised, functional complexity, i.e FSCI; they are of course artifacts of intelligent design and also exhibit step-by-step problem-solving processes (even including "do-always" looping!)]: | | (A, heat source: Th): d'Qi --> (B', heat engine, Te): --> d'W [work done on say D] + d'Qo --> (C, sink at Tc) | | i] A's entropy: dSa >/= - d'Qi/Th j] C's entropy: dSc >/= + d'Qo/Tc k] The rise in entropy in B, C and in the object on which the work is done, D, say, compensates for that lost from A. The second law -- unsurprisingly, given the studies on steam engines that lie at its roots -- holds for heat engines. l] However for B since it now couples energy into work and exhausts waste heat, does not necessarily undergo a rise in entropy having imported d'Qi. [The problem is to explain the origin of the heat engine -- or more generally, energy converter -- that does this, if it exhibits FSCI.] m] There is also a material difference between the sort of heat engine [an instance of the energy conversion device mentioned] that forms spontaneously as in a hurricane [directly driven by boundary conditions in a convective system on the planetary scale, i.e. an example of order], and the sort of complex, organised, algorithm-implementing energy conversion device found in living cells [the DNA-RNA-Ribosome-Enzyme system, which exhibits massive FSCI]. n] In short, the decisive problem is the [im]plausibility of the ORIGIN of such a FSCI-based energy converter through causal mechanisms traceable only to chance conditions and undirected [non-purposive] natural forces. This problem yields a conundrum for chem evo scenarios, such that inference to agency as the probable cause of such FSCI -- on the direct import of the many cases where we do directly know the causal story of FSCI -- becomes the better explanation. As TBO say, in bridging from a survey of the basic thermodynamics of living systems in CH 7, to that more focussed discussion in ch's 8 - 9:
While the maintenance of living systems is easily rationalized in terms of thermodynamics, the origin of such living systems is quite another matter. Though the earth is open to energy flow from the sun, the means of converting this energy into the necessary work to build up living systems from simple precursors remains at present unspecified (see equation 7-17). The "evolution" from biomonomers of to fully functioning cells is the issue. Can one make the incredible jump in energy and organization from raw material and raw energy, apart from some means of directing the energy flow through the system? In Chapters 8 and 9 we will consider this question, limiting our discussion to two small but crucial steps in the proposed evolutionary scheme namely, the formation of protein and DNA from their precursors. It is widely agreed that both protein and DNA are essential for living systems and indispensable components of every living cell today.11 Yet they are only produced by living cells. Both types of molecules are much more energy and information rich than the biomonomers from which they form. Can one reasonably predict their occurrence given the necessary biomonomers and an energy source? Has this been verified experimentally? These questions will be considered . . . [Bold emphasis added. Cf summary in the peer-reviewed journal of the American Scientific Affiliation, "Thermodynamics and the Origin of Life," in Perspectives on Science and Christian Faith 40 (June 1988): 72-83, pardon the poor quality of the scan. NB:as the journal's online issues will show, this is not necessarily a "friendly audience."]
3] So far we have worked out of a more or less classical view of the subject. But, to explore such a question further, we need to look more deeply at the microscopic level. Happily, there is a link from macroscopic thermodynamic concepts to the microscopic, molecular view of matter, as worked out by Boltzmann and others, leading to the key equation: s = k ln W . . . Eqn.A.3 That is, entropy of a specified macrostate [in effect, macroscopic description or specification] is a constant times a log measure of the number of ways matter and energy can be distributed at the micro-level consistent with that state [i.e. the number of associated microstates; aka "the statistical weight of the macrostate," aka "thermodynamic probability"]. The point is, that there are as a rule a great many ways for energy and matter to be arranged at micro level relative to a given observable macro-state. That is, there is a "loss of information" issue here on going from specific microstate to a macro-level description, with which many microstates may be equally compatible. Thence, we can see that if we do not know the microstates specifically enough, we have to more or less treat the micro-distributions of matter and energy as random, leading to acting as though they are disordered. Or, as Leon Brillouin, one of the foundational workers in modern information theory, put it in his 1962 Science and Information Theory, Second Edition:
How is it possible to formulate a scientific theory of information? The first requirement is to start from a precise definition. . . . . We consider a problem involving a certain number of possible answers, if we have no special information on the actual situation. When we happen to be in possession of some information on the problem, the number of possible answers is reduced, and complete information may even leave us with only one possible answer. Information is a function of the ratio of the number of possible answers before and after, and we choose a logarithmic law in order to insure additivity of the information contained in independent situations [as seen above in the main body, section A] . . . . Physics enters the picture when we discover a remarkable likeness between information and entropy. This similarity was noticed long ago by L. Szilard, in an old paper of 1929, which was the forerunner of the present theory. In this paper, Szilard was really pioneering in the unknown territory which we are now exploring in all directions. He investigated the problem of Maxwell's demon, and this is one of the important subjects discussed in this book. The connection between information and entropy was rediscovered by C. Shannon in a different class of problems, and we devote many chapters to this comparison. We prove that information must be considered as a negative term in the entropy of a system; in short, information is negentropy. The entropy of a physical system has often been described as a measure of randomness in the structure of the system. We can now state this result in a slightly different way: Every physical system is incompletely defined. We only know the values of some macroscopic variables, and we are unable to specify the exact positions and velocities of all the molecules contained in a system. We have only scanty, partial information on the system, and most of the information on the detailed structure is missing. Entropy measures the lack of information; it gives us the total amount of missing information on the ultramicroscopic structure of the system. This point of view is defined as the negentropy principle of information [added links: cf. explanation here and "onward" discussion here -- noting on the brief, dismissive critique of Brillouin there, that you never get away from the need to provide information -- there is "no free lunch," as Dembski has pointed out ; ->) ], and it leads directly to a generalization of the second principle of thermodynamics, since entropy and information must, be discussed together and cannot be treated separately. This negentropy principle of information will be justified by a variety of examples ranging from theoretical physics to everyday life. The essential point is to show that any observation or experiment made on a physical system automatically results in an increase of the entropy of the laboratory. It is then possible to compare the loss of negentropy (increase of entropy) with the amount of information obtained. The efficiency of an experiment can be defined as the ratio of information obtained to the associated increase in entropy. This efficiency is always smaller than unity, according to the generalized Carnot principle. Examples show that the efficiency can be nearly unity in some special examples, but may also be extremely low in other cases. This line of discussion is very useful in a comparison of fundamental experiments used in science, more particularly in physics. It leads to a new investigation of the efficiency of different methods of observation, as well as their accuracy and reliability . . . . [From an online excerpt of the Dover Reprint edition, here. Emphases, links and bracketed comment added.]
4] Yavorski and Pinski, in the textbook Physics, Vol I [MIR, USSR, 1974, pp. 279 ff.], summarise the key implication of the macro-state and micro-state view well: as we consider a simple model of diffusion, let us think of ten white and ten black balls in two rows in a container. There is of course but one way in which there are ten whites in the top row; the balls of any one colour being for our purposes identical. But on shuffling, there are 63,504 ways to arrange five each of black and white balls in the two rows, and 6-4 distributions may occur in two ways, each with 44,100 alternatives. So, if we for the moment see the set of balls as circulating among the various different possible arrangements at random, and spending about the same time in each possible state on average, the time the system spends in any given state will be proportionate to the relative number of ways that state may be achieved. Immediately, we see that the system will gravitate towards the cluster of more evenly distributed states. In short, we have just seen that there is a natural trend of change at random, towards the more thermodynamically probable macrostates, i.e the ones with higher statistical weights. So "[b]y comparing the [thermodynamic] probabilities of two states of a thermodynamic system, we can establish at once the direction of the process that is [spontaneously] feasible in the given system. It will correspond to a transition from a less probable to a more probable state." [p. 284.] This is in effect the statistical form of the 2nd law of thermodynamics. Thus, too, the behaviour of the Clausius isolated system above is readily understood: importing d'Q of random molecular energy so far increases the number of ways energy can be distributed at micro-scale in B, that the resulting rise in B's entropy swamps the fall in A's entropy. Moreover, given that FSCI-rich micro-arrangements are relatively rare in the set of possible arrangements, we can also see why it is hard to account for the origin of such states by spontaneous processes in the scope of the observable universe. (Of course, since it is as a rule very inconvenient to work in terms of statistical weights of macrostates [i.e W], we instead move to entropy, through s = k ln W. Part of how this is done can be seen by imagining a system in which there are W ways accessible, and imagining a partition into parts 1 and 2. W = W1*W2, as for each arrangement in 1 all accessible arrangements in 2 are possible and vice versa, but it is far more convenient to have an additive measure, i.e we need to go to logs. The constant of proportionality, k, is the famous Boltzmann constant and is in effect the universal gas constant, R, on a per molecule basis, i.e we divide R by the Avogadro Number, NA, to get: k = R/NA. The two approaches to entropy, by Clausius, and Boltzmann, of course, correspond. In real-world systems of any significant scale, the relative statistical weights are usually so disproportionate, that the classical observation that entropy naturally tends to increase, is readily apparent.) 5] The above sort of thinking has also led to the rise of a school of thought in Physics -- note, much spoken against in some quarters, but I think they clearly have a point -- that ties information and thermodynamics together. Robertson presents their case; in summary:
. . . It has long been recognized that the assignment of probabilities to a set represents information, and that some probability sets represent more information than others . . . if one of the probabilities say p2 is unity and therefore the others are zero, then we know that the outcome of the experiment . . . will give [event] y2. Thus we have complete information . . . if we have no basis . . . for believing that event yi is more or less likely than any other [we] have the least possible information about the outcome of the experiment . . . . A remarkably simple and clear analysis by Shannon [1948] has provided us with a quantitative measure of the uncertainty, or missing pertinent information, inherent in a set of probabilities [NB: i.e. a probability should be seen as, in part, an index of ignorance] . . . . [deriving informational entropy, cf. discussions here, here, here, here and here; also Sarfati's discussion of debates and open systems here; the debate here is eye-opening on rhetorical tactics used to cloud this and related issues . . . ] S({pi}) = - C [SUM over i] pi*ln pi, [. . . "my" Eqn A.4] [where [SUM over i] pi = 1, and we can define also parameters alpha and beta such that: (1) pi = e^-[alpha + beta*yi]; (2) exp [alpha] = [SUM over i](exp - beta*yi) = Z [Z being in effect the partition function across microstates, the "Holy Grail" of statistical thermodynamics]. . . .[pp.3 - 6] S, called the information entropy, . . . correspond[s] to the thermodynamic entropy, with C = k, the Boltzmann constant, and yi an energy level, usually ei, while [BETA] becomes 1/kT, with T the thermodynamic temperature . . . A thermodynamic system is characterized by a microscopic structure that is not observed in detail . . . We attempt to develop a theoretical description of the macroscopic properties in terms of its underlying microscopic properties, which are not precisely known. We attempt to assign probabilities to the various microscopic states . . . based on a few . . . macroscopic observations that can be related to averages of microscopic parameters. Evidently the problem that we attempt to solve in statistical thermophysics is exactly the one just treated in terms of information theory. It should not be surprising, then, that the uncertainty of information theory becomes a thermodynamic variable when used in proper context [p. 7] . . . . Jayne's [summary rebuttal to a typical objection] is ". . . The entropy of a thermodynamic system is a measure of the degree of ignorance of a person whose sole knowledge about its microstate consists of the values of the macroscopic quantities . . . which define its thermodynamic state. This is a perfectly 'objective' quantity . . . it is a function of [those variables] and does not depend on anybody's personality. There is no reason why it cannot be measured in the laboratory." . . . . [p. 36.] [Robertson, Statistical Thermophysics, Prentice Hall, 1993. (NB: Sorry for the math and the use of text for symbolism. However, it should be clear enough that Roberson first summarises how Shannon derived his informational entropy [though Robertson uses s rather than the usual H for that information theory variable, average information per symbol], then ties it to entropy in the thermodynamic sense using another relation that is tied to the Boltzmann relationship above. This context gives us a basis for looking at the issues that surface in prebiotic soup or similar models as we try to move from relatively easy to form monomers to the more energy- and information- rich, far more complex biofunctional molecules.)] >>
____________ In short the rebuttals presented that try to suggest that an open system poses no thermodynamics challenges to OOL and onward evolution as a consequence, is seriously flawed and simplistic. KFkairosfocus
July 4, 2013
July
07
Jul
4
04
2013
12:09 AM
12
12
09
AM
PDT
F/N a: I clip my always linked, here on in Section A: ____________ >>we may average the information per symbol in the communication system thusly (giving in terms of -H to make the additive relationships clearer): - H = p1 log p1 + p2 log p2 + . . . + pn log pn or, H = - SUM [pi log pi] . . . Eqn 5 H, the average information per symbol transmitted [usually, measured as: bits/symbol], is often termed the Entropy; first, historically, because it resembles one of the expressions for entropy in statistical thermodynamics. As Connor notes: "it is often referred to as the entropy of the source." [p.81, emphasis added.] Also, while this is a somewhat controversial view in Physics, as is briefly discussed in Appendix 1below, there is in fact an informational interpretation of thermodynamics that shows that informational and thermodynamic entropy can be linked conceptually as well as in mere mathematical form. Though somewhat controversial even in quite recent years, this is becoming more broadly accepted in physics and information theory, as Wikipedia now discusses [as at April 2011] in its article on Informational Entropy (aka Shannon Information, cf also here):
At an everyday practical level the links between information entropy and thermodynamic entropy are not close. Physicists and chemists are apt to be more interested in changes in entropy as a system spontaneously evolves away from its initial conditions, in accordance with the second law of thermodynamics, rather than an unchanging probability distribution. And, as the numerical smallness of Boltzmann's constant kB indicates, the changes in S / kB for even minute amounts of substances in chemical and physical processes represent amounts of entropy which are so large as to be right off the scale compared to anything seen in data compression or signal processing. But, at a multidisciplinary level, connections can be made between thermodynamic and informational entropy, although it took many years in the development of the theories of statistical mechanics and information theory to make the relationship fully apparent. In fact, in the view of Jaynes (1957), thermodynamics should be seen as an application of Shannon's information theory: the thermodynamic entropy is interpreted as being an estimate of the amount of further Shannon information needed to define the detailed microscopic state of the system, that remains uncommunicated by a description solely in terms of the macroscopic variables of classical thermodynamics. For example, adding heat to a system increases its thermodynamic entropy because it increases the number of possible microscopic states that it could be in, thus making any complete state description longer. (See article: maximum entropy thermodynamics.[Also,another article remarks: >>in the words of G. N. Lewis writing about chemical entropy in 1930, "Gain in entropy always means loss of information, and nothing more" . . . in the discrete case using base two logarithms, the reduced Gibbs entropy is equal to the minimum number of yes/no questions that need to be answered in order to fully specify the microstate, given that we know the macrostate.>>]) Maxwell's demon can (hypothetically) reduce the thermodynamic entropy of a system by using information about the states of individual molecules; but, as Landauer (from 1961) and co-workers have shown, to function the demon himself must increase thermodynamic entropy in the process, by at least the amount of Shannon information he proposes to first acquire and store; and so the total entropy does not decrease (which resolves the paradox).
Summarising Harry Robertson's Statistical Thermophysics (Prentice-Hall International, 1993) -- excerpting desperately and adding emphases and explanatory comments, we can see, perhaps, that this should not be so surprising after all. (In effect, since we do not possess detailed knowledge of the states of the vary large number of microscopic particles of thermal systems [typically ~ 10^20 to 10^26; a mole of substance containing ~ 6.023*10^23 particles; i.e. the Avogadro Number], we can only view them in terms of those gross averages we term thermodynamic variables [pressure, temperature, etc], and so we cannot take advantage of knowledge of such individual particle states that would give us a richer harvest of work, etc.) For, as he astutely observes on pp. vii - viii:
. . . the standard assertion that molecular chaos exists is nothing more than a poorly disguised admission of ignorance, or lack of detailed information about the dynamic state of a system . . . . If I am able to perceive order, I may be able to use it to extract work from the system, but if I am unaware of internal correlations, I cannot use them for macroscopic dynamical purposes. On this basis, I shall distinguish heat from work, and thermal energy from other forms . . .
And, in more details, (pp. 3 - 6, 7, 36, cf Appendix 1 below for a more detailed development of thermodynamics issues and their tie-in with the inference to design; also see recent ArXiv papers by Duncan and Samura here and here):
. . . It has long been recognized that the assignment of probabilities to a set represents information, and that some probability sets represent more information than others . . . if one of the probabilities say p2 is unity and therefore the others are zero, then we know that the outcome of the experiment . . . will give [event] y2. Thus we have complete information . . . if we have no basis . . . for believing that event yi is more or less likely than any other [we] have the least possible information about the outcome of the experiment . . . . A remarkably simple and clear analysis by Shannon [1948] has provided us with a quantitative measure of the uncertainty, or missing pertinent information, inherent in a set of probabilities [NB: i.e. a probability different from 1 or 0 should be seen as, in part, an index of ignorance] . . . . [deriving informational entropy, cf. discussions here, here, here, here and here; also Sarfati's discussion of debates and the issue of open systems here . . . ] H({pi}) = - C [SUM over i] pi*ln pi, [. . . "my" Eqn 6] [where [SUM over i] pi = 1, and we can define also parameters alpha and beta such that: (1) pi = e^-[alpha + beta*yi]; (2) exp [alpha] = [SUM over i](exp - beta*yi) = Z [Z being in effect the partition function across microstates, the "Holy Grail" of statistical thermodynamics]. . . . [H], called the information entropy, . . . correspond[s] to the thermodynamic entropy [i.e. s, where also it was shown by Boltzmann that s = k ln w], with C = k, the Boltzmann constant, and yi an energy level, usually ei, while [BETA] becomes 1/kT, with T the thermodynamic temperature . . . A thermodynamic system is characterized by a microscopic structure that is not observed in detail . . . We attempt to develop a theoretical description of the macroscopic properties in terms of its underlying microscopic properties, which are not precisely known. We attempt to assign probabilities to the various microscopic states . . . based on a few . . . macroscopic observations that can be related to averages of microscopic parameters. Evidently the problem that we attempt to solve in statistical thermophysics is exactly the one just treated in terms of information theory. It should not be surprising, then, that the uncertainty of information theory becomes a thermodynamic variable when used in proper context . . . . Jayne's [summary rebuttal to a typical objection] is ". . . The entropy of a thermodynamic system is a measure of the degree of ignorance of a person whose sole knowledge about its microstate consists of the values of the macroscopic quantities . . . which define its thermodynamic state. This is a perfectly 'objective' quantity . . . it is a function of [those variables] and does not depend on anybody's personality. There is no reason why it cannot be measured in the laboratory." . . . . [pp. 3 - 6, 7, 36; replacing Robertson's use of S for Informational Entropy with the more standard H.]
As is discussed briefly in Appendix 1, Thaxton, Bradley and Olsen [TBO], following Brillouin et al, in the 1984 foundational work for the modern Design Theory, The Mystery of Life's Origins [TMLO], exploit this information-entropy link, through the idea of moving from a random to a known microscopic configuration in the creation of the bio-functional polymers of life, and then -- again following Brillouin -- identify a quantitative information metric for the information of polymer molecules. For, in moving from a random to a functional molecule, we have in effect an objective, observable increment in information about the molecule. This leads to energy constraints, thence to a calculable concentration of such molecules in suggested, generously "plausible" primordial "soups." In effect, so unfavourable is the resulting thermodynamic balance, that the concentrations of the individual functional molecules in such a prebiotic soup are arguably so small as to be negligibly different from zero on a planet-wide scale. By many orders of magnitude, we don't get to even one molecule each of the required polymers per planet, much less bringing them together in the required proximity for them to work together as the molecular machinery of life. The linked chapter gives the details. More modern analyses [e.g. Trevors and Abel, here and here], however, tend to speak directly in terms of information and probabilities rather than the more arcane world of classical and statistical thermodynamics, so let us now return to that focus; in particular addressing information in its functional sense, as the third step in this preliminary analysis . . . >> ____________ In short, heat, energy moving form one body to another by radiation, conduction or convection, is a particular and important case of a much wider phenomenon (and CS3's set of clips is excellent). More to follow . . . KFkairosfocus
July 3, 2013
July
07
Jul
3
03
2013
11:52 PM
11
11
52
PM
PDT
In fact there is a irreducibly complex molecular machine at the heart of photosynthesis:
The ATP Synthase Enzyme - exquisite motor necessary for first life - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XI8m6o0gXDY ATP Synthase, an Energy-Generating Rotary Motor Engine - Jonathan M. May 15, 2013 Excerpt: ATP synthase has been described as "a splendid molecular machine," and "one of the most beautiful" of "all enzymes" .,, "bona fide rotary dynamo machine",,, If such a unique and brilliantly engineered nanomachine bears such a strong resemblance to the engineering of manmade hydroelectric generators, and yet so impressively outperforms the best human technology in terms of speed and efficiency, one is led unsurprisingly to the conclusion that such a machine itself is best explained by intelligent design. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/05/atp_synthase_an_1072101.html Thermodynamic efficiency and mechanochemical coupling of F1-ATPase - 2011 Excerpt:F1-ATPase is a nanosized biological energy transducer working as part of FoF1-ATP synthase. Its rotary machinery transduces energy between chemical free energy and mechanical work and plays a central role in the cellular energy transduction by synthesizing most ATP in virtually all organisms.,, Our results suggested a 100% free-energy transduction efficiency and a tight mechanochemical coupling of F1-ATPase. http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2011/10/12/1106787108.short?rss=1
Yet, photosynthesis presents a far more difficult challenge to Darwinists than just explaining how all these extremely complex mechanisms for converting raw energy into useful energy 'just so happened' to 'randomly' come about so as to enable life to be possible.,,,In what I find to be a very fascinating discovery, it is found that photosynthetic life, which is an absolutely vital link that all higher life on earth is dependent on for food, uses ‘non-local’, beyond space and time, quantum mechanical principles to accomplish photosynthesis
Quantum Mechanics at Work in Photosynthesis: Algae Familiar With These Processes for Nearly Two Billion Years - Feb. 2010 Excerpt: "We were astonished to find clear evidence of long-lived quantum mechanical states involved in moving the energy. Our result suggests that the energy of absorbed light resides in two places at once -- a quantum superposition state, or coherence -- and such a state lies at the heart of quantum mechanical theory.",,, "It suggests that algae knew about quantum mechanics nearly two billion years before humans," says Scholes. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/02/100203131356.htm
At the 21:00 minute mark of the following video, Dr Suarez explains why photosynthesis needs a 'non-local', beyond space and time, cause to explain its effect:
Nonlocality of Photosynthesis - Antoine Suarez - video - 2012 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhMrrmlTXl4&feature=player_detailpage#t=1268s
As a Theist, I, of course, have a 'non-local' beyond space and time cause to appeal to to explain photosynthesis,, Verse and Music:
1 John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. Toby Mac (In The Light) - music video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_MpGRQRrP0
,,,Whereas the atheists have crickets chirping,,
Cricket Chirping http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQFEY9RIRJA
bornagain77
July 3, 2013
July
07
Jul
3
03
2013
11:20 PM
11
11
20
PM
PDT
I've always found the compensation (open system) argument from atheists to be a very disingenuous argument since the second law was formulated right here on earth, an open system, in the first place! ,,, And even though the harmful energy coming from the sun is very constrained as to allow only that energy which is most useful to life to reach the earth,,,
Extreme Fine Tuning of Light for Life and Scientific Discovery - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/7715887 Fine Tuning Of Universal Constants, Particularly Light - Walter Bradley - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4491552 Fine Tuning Of Light to the Atmosphere, to Biological Life, and to Water - graphs http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AYmaSrBPNEmGZGM4ejY3d3pfMTljaGh4MmdnOQ
,,, and even though the energy coming from the sun is very constrained in such a way,, In the following video,,,
Evolution Vs. Thermodynamics - Open System Refutation - Thomas Kindell - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4143014
,,,Dr. Thomas Kindell points out that the harmful raw energy from the sun that is allowed to reach the earth must be further refined and converted into useful energy by photosynthesis,,, and indeed, contrary to evolutionary expectations, we now have evidence for photosynthetic life suddenly appearing on earth, as soon as water appeared on the earth, in the oldest sedimentary rocks ever found on earth.
The Sudden Appearance Of Photosynthetic Life On Earth - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4262918 U-rich Archaean sea-floor sediments from Greenland - indications of +3700 Ma oxygenic photosynthesis (2003) http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2004E&PSL.217..237R
,,,yet photosynthesis is a very, very, complex process which is certainly not conducive to an easy materialistic explanation,,,
"There is no question about photosynthesis being Irreducibly Complex. But it’s worse than that from an evolutionary perspective. There are 17 enzymes alone involved in the synthesis of chlorophyll. Are we to believe that all intermediates had selective value? Not when some of them form triplet states that have the same effect as free radicals like O2. In addition if chlorophyll evolved before antenna proteins, whose function is to bind chlorophyll, then chlorophyll would be toxic to cells. Yet the binding function explains the selective value of antenna proteins. Why would such proteins evolve prior to chlorophyll? and if they did not, how would cells survive chlorophyll until they did?" Uncommon Descent Blogger Evolutionary biology: Out of thin air John F. Allen & William Martin: The measure of the problem is here: “Oxygenetic photosynthesis involves about 100 proteins that are highly ordered within the photosynthetic membranes of the cell." http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v445/n7128/full/445610a.html The Miracle Of Photosynthesis - electron transport - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hj_WKgnL6MI Michael Denton: Remarkable Coincidences in Photosynthesis - podcast http://www.idthefuture.com/2012/09/michael_denton_remarkable_coin.html
bornagain77
July 3, 2013
July
07
Jul
3
03
2013
11:19 PM
11
11
19
PM
PDT
Incidentally, for keiths, Elizabeth, and anyone else who keeps incorrectly claiming that the thermodynamic issue is (i) irrelevant, and (ii) is only on the table because of creationist talking points, it is worth revisiting a thread from last year in which Nick Matzke sent us down a rabbit hole on the idea of life being some kind of "kinetic state," based on a published paper he was rather enamored with. That "kinetic state" is a separate issue, but the reason I bring it up here is that the authors -- devout evolutionists to be sure -- acknowledged that they were trying to deal with the thermodynamic issues relating to the origin and maintenance of life. Indeed, the whole reason they put forth their "kinetic state" of life argument was to try and solve these issues. Yes, Virginia, they are talking about the same kind of thing Granville is talking about. They refer specifically to thermodynamics and the problem of "far-from-equilibrium-systems." Their "kinetic state" solution turned out to be nonsense in its own right and is a topic for another time, but the key takeaway for this thread, is that the authors of that paper acknowledged the thermodynamic/equilibrium issue as a live problem for evolutionary research. https://uncommondescent.com/origin-of-life/from-the-first-gene-chapter-9-inanimate-nature-cannot-scheme-to-locally-and-temporarily-circumvent-the-2nd-law/#comment-421718Eric Anderson
July 3, 2013
July
07
Jul
3
03
2013
11:05 PM
11
11
05
PM
PDT
keiths @21:
Instead, the compensation happens because Earth is radiating energy out into its surroundings. How do the surroundings “know” that they should increase their entropy? Because they receive the radiation from the Earth.
Look, the only reason the sun came up is because a number of evolution apologists have said, when confronted with questions, "But the Earth is an open system; it receives energy from the Sun and the Sun's entropy is increasing to compensate for what happens on Earth." I'm glad to know that you agree the entropy situation on the Sun is irrelevant. That is good. Would that everyone would acknowledge the whole "Earth is an open system" is nonsense. Now, however, we're supposed to believe that because "Earth is radiating energy out into its surroundings"* that the compensation happens from the Earth's radiation? I'm laughing even thinking about this, but since you're the expert, I'd like to understand what it is that you think is going on. What is the physical mechanism you think is compensating for, in the example at hand, the growth of a tree? What is the initial trigger for this mechanism? How does the amount of compensation get adjusted for the decrease in entropy brought about by our tree? What kind of a physical system is being proposed here? ----- * Note, everyone, this is exactly what the Sun is doing. Thus, there is no rational basis for distinction between the Earth's radiation and the Sun's radiation, but we'll play along.Eric Anderson
July 3, 2013
July
07
Jul
3
03
2013
10:51 PM
10
10
51
PM
PDT
Andre, is it really true that Earth is losing mass faster than it is gaining it? Is this a constant thing or does it vary?Bilbo I
July 3, 2013
July
07
Jul
3
03
2013
10:45 PM
10
10
45
PM
PDT
don't forget the role mass plays in entropy.... especially in an open system that is losing mass faster than it is accumulating it.....Andre
July 3, 2013
July
07
Jul
3
03
2013
10:26 PM
10
10
26
PM
PDT
OK, that's almost as long ago.Bilbo I
July 3, 2013
July
07
Jul
3
03
2013
10:24 PM
10
10
24
PM
PDT
No, the early, early days of UD.keiths
July 3, 2013
July
07
Jul
3
03
2013
10:15 PM
10
10
15
PM
PDT
1 8 9 10 11 12 13

Leave a Reply