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Where is the difference here?

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Since my Cornell conference contribution has generated dozens of critical comments on another thread, I feel compelled to respond. I hope this is the last time I ever have to talk about this topic, I’m really tired of it.

Here are two scenarios:

1. A tornado hits a town, turning houses and cars into rubble. Then, another tornado hits, and turns the rubble back into houses and cars.

2. The atoms on a barren planet spontaneously rearrange themselves, with the help of solar energy and under the direction of four unintelligent forces of physics alone, into humans, cars, high-speed computers, libraries full of science texts and encyclopedias, TV sets, airplanes and spaceships. Then, the sun explodes into a supernova, and, with the help of solar energy, all of these things turn back into dust.

It is almost universally agreed in the scientific community that the second stage (but not the first) of scenario 1 would violate the second law of thermodynamics, at least the more general statements of this law (eg, “In an isolated system, the direction of spontaneous change is from order to disorder” see footnote 4 in my paper). It is also almost universally agreed that the first stage of scenario 2 does not violate the second law. (Of course, everyone agrees that there is no conflict in the second stage.) Why, what is the difference here?

Every general physics book which discusses evolution and the second law argues that the first stage of scenario 2 does not violate the second law because the Earth is an open system, and entropy can decrease in an open system as long as the decrease is compensated by increases outside the Earth. I gave several examples of this argument in section 1, if you can find a single general physics text anywhere which makes a different argument in claiming that evolution does not violate the second law, let me know which one.

Well, this same compensation argument can equally well be used to argue that the second tornado in scenario 1 does not violate the second law: the Earth is an open system, tornados receive their energy from the sun, any decrease in entropy due to a tornado that turns rubble into houses and cars is easily compensated by increases outside the Earth. It is difficult to define or measure entropy in scenario 2, but it is equally difficult in scenario 1.

I’ll save you the trouble: there is only one reason why nearly everyone agrees that the second law is violated in scenario 1 and not scenario 2: because there is a widely believed theory as to how the evolution of life and of human intelligence happened, while there is no widely believed theory as to how a tornado could turn rubble into houses and cars. There is no other argument which can be made as to why the second law is not violated in scenario 2, that could not equally well be applied to argue that it is not violated in scenario 1 either.

Well, in this paper, and every other piece I have written on this topic, including my new Bio-Complexity paper , and the video below, I have acknowledged that, if you really can explain scenario 2, then it does not violate the basic principle behind the second law. In my conclusions in the Cornell contribution, I wrote:

Of course, one can still argue that the spectacular increase in order seen on Earth is consistent with the underlying principle behind the second law, because what has happened here is not really extremely improbable. One can still argue that once upon a time…a collection of atoms formed by pure chance that was able to duplicate itself, and these complex collections of atoms were able to pass their complex structures on to their descendents generation after generation, even correcting errors. One can still argue that, after a long time, the accumulation of genetic accidents resulted in greater and greater information content in the DNA of these more and more complex collections of atoms, and eventually something called “intelligence” allowed some of these collections of atoms to design cars and trucks and spaceships and nuclear power plants. One can still argue that it only seems extremely improbable, but really isn’t, that under the right conditions, the influx of stellar energy into a planet could cause atoms to rearrange themselves into computers and laser printers and the Internet.

Of course, if you can come up with a nice theory on how tornados could turn rubble into houses and cars, you can argue that the second law is not violated in scenario 1 either.

Elizabeth and KeithS, you are welcome to go back into your complaints about what an idiot Sewell is to think that dust spontaneously turning into computers and the Internet might violate “the basic principle behind the second law,” and how this bad paper shows that all of the Cornell contributions were bad, but please first give me another reason, other than the one I acknowledged, why there is a conflict with the second law (or at least the fundamental principle behind the second law) in scenario 1 and not in scenario 2? (Or perhaps you suddenly now don’t see any conflict with the second law in scenario 1 either, that is an acceptable answer, but now you are in conflict with the scientific consensus!)

And if you can’t think of another reason, what in my paper do you disagree with, it seems we are in complete agreement!!

Comments
chesterton:
The designer could be a machine that uses the diffusing energy of the universe to do work, as our bodies.
Sure. Or chemical reactions that use the same energy. You may disagree that this is possible, but it's not the 2nd Law that prevents it.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 5, 2013
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niwrad:
Have you ever seen a system that self-adjusts? No.
Yes. I assume you mean apart from living things, though. Answer is still yes. Non-living homeostatic systems exist. A good example is the albedo effect of a snow field. Snow reflects heat, keeping the air cool, and thus maintaining the depth of snow. That's why loss of snowfields is so worrying - we may be losing a major mechanism for maintaining the planet's temperature. The Oklo natural nuclear reactor is (or was) another. Old Faithful is another.
Have you ever seen a system that self-constructs? No, a fortiori.
Sure. Again, living things self construct of course, but what about crystals? Or sand dunes?
Have you ever seen a system that breaks down? Yes, countless times, every day.
Yes indeed. But nobody is arguing that the 2nd Law is false. All we are saying is that Granville's assertion that if evolution were true, the 2nd Law would have been violated, is false.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 5, 2013
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"So what then happens to the entropy of the designer?" The designer could be a machine that uses the diffusing energy of the universe to do work, as our bodies.Chesterton
July 5, 2013
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KF: nobody is arguing that things do not spontaneously diffuse, or that “rubble” after a tornado is not infinitely more probable than a rearranged street of houses. As I see it (and I am very willing to be shown to be wrong!), this is clearly true, simply because there are far more arrangements describable as "rubble" than there are arrangements describable as "street of houses”, and tornados blow every which way, which is why we call them tornados. And as you suggest, a teabag added to a cup of water will quickly result in a uniformly pale brown fluid, because there are far more possible arrangements of more or less uniformly distributed tea molecules in the water than there are of arrangements in which they are bunched up in one place. If there is nothing pushing them in a specific direction, they will spread out, because left to their own devices, movement in any one direction is as probable as any other, and thus “back into the teabag” is much less probable than “not back into the teabag”. The entropy of the teabag will therefore increase, because there is now a mix of tea and water molecules in the bag, instead of just tea molecules, so there are now many more way of arranging the contents. Similarly the entropy of fluid outside the teabag has also increased, as there are now tea molecules as well as water molecules in the rest of the cup, instead of just water, and thus, again, more possible arrangements. But that doesn’t mean it’s not possible to get the tea back into the teabag without violating the 2nd Law. If it were, we wouldn’t have instant tea (disgusting stuff though it is). It’s just that you have to do some work to get it there, and if you do, or something does, the entropy of that something will increase as a result of the work done. And that something doesn’t need to be a human instant-tea powder designer. If instead of tea in a cup, we consider a flash flood in a salt pan. Immediately after the flash flood, there is a layer of nearly pure salt at the bottom of what is now a lake, with nearly pure water above. Both salt layer and water layer have low entropy, because there are very few ways of rearranging the constituents of either to produce a different configuration (just as there are very few ways in which you can rearrange 99 Heads and 1 Tail without flipping the coins over). However, over time, the salt will dissolve in the water, and the salt molecules will distribute themselves uniformly in what is now a saline lake that has high entropy (lots of different ways of rearranging the salt and water molecules). Can the salt get back where it started, in a nice low entropy layer at the bottom? Sure. The sun can, and will, as it has done before, evaporate off the water, leaving a low entropy salt layer again. And the low entropy water layer can also be restored; as the earlier evaporated water condenses in the upper atmosphere, eventually it will fall as rain, resulting in another flash flood, at the beginning of which we will have, yet again, two local low entropy macrostates: salt at the bottom of the lake water; pure water above. No violation of the 2nd Law has occurred, because in evaporating off the water, entropy has increased in the atmosphere above (now the dry air has water molecules in it). Nor has any designer been involved. Yet the salt is “ back in the bag” as it were. The 2nd Law does not forbid local decreases of entropy – segregation of uniformly saline fluid into layers of salt and water; snowdrifts; wind-piled leaves; even neat piles of sorted belongings in tidied-up houses. What it says is that any local decrease will be accompanied by an increase in the entropy of the surroundings that is at least as great, and usually greater, which is why I need my cup of tea and a biscuit after the rare occasions when I tidy the house. Thus, whether evolution was the cause of biological complexity, or a designer, we have no reason to believe that a violation or suspension of the 2nd Law was involved. We do not have to make any kind of special pleading for the designer hypothesis, as niwrad does above, saying that, a designer is an OK explanation because “entropy affects the physical only, not the metaphysical”. This is because the inference that any physical cause would necessitate a violation of the 2nd Law is false. Just as a gust of wind can “undiffuse” a park full of scattered leaves into a pile in the corner, so can other material processes “undiffuse” atoms to form local macrostates with decreased entropy. If it were not so, saltpans wouldn’t exist. (I’m aware that I have ignored the cooling of the water in the teacup, as well as the cooling by evaporation in the salt pan, and by the dissolving of the salt – but my point is that even if we define entropy very simply, as the number of possible rearrangements of the elements of a local system, it is clear that there is no reason to think that “sorting” processes that result in local decreases of entropy violate the 2nd Law, nor that they cannot occur in the absence of living things. And of course, it is the contention of “evolutionists” that evolution is a sorting process).Elizabeth B Liddle
July 5, 2013
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KS, re CS3: In one word, diffusion, cf. just above. Do you want to go through a box- and- marbles exercise with various colours, initially ordered in clusters then what happens after a time? Or, injection of a new colour into the mix and what happens after a time? KFkairosfocus
July 5, 2013
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EL: With all reasonable respect, your response at 131 above shows that you are unfamiliar with the line of work that has come from Jaynes (and also Brillouin and others), as is summarised in, say, Robertson's Statistical Thermophysics. I actually excerpted some thoughts on that line of thinking in thermal physics, above at 96 - 97 from my always linked note, but as usual, you ignored and went on to -- pardon my being more blunt that Timaeus -- pontificate on a superficial base. I will simply note my agreement with CS3 on the point that entropy crops up in any number of cases where energy and mass are subject to various arrangements at micro-level consistent with a macro-level (lab scale) description. This includes things like free expansion, diffusion, osmosis, viscosity, and more. Thermodynamics started with temperature but it has gone far beyond that once the statistical and informational perspectives came to bear. And, as Dr Sewell is pointing out, the diffusion concept and relationships linked to it lie at the heart of a lot of what is going on in thermodynamics -- random walks leading to a strong tendency of spreading out from zones of high to those of low concentration -- so his X-Entropy remarks have a point, though obviously they are not conventional terminology, cf. my box and marbles thought exercise and related remarks at 96 - 97 above. That spreading out effect is closely tied though not simply equivalent to increased disorder, and a more probable cluster of states. These points are also closely connected to the 500H coin case, and the natural tendency on shaking, to move from it to the more probable clusters close to the 250 H/T mean and with the HT pattern in no particular simply describable order [like an ASCII code message or the like], which yields an increase in entropy. Similarly, precisely because it is so far from the overwhelming bulk of possibilities, it is empirically, practically unobservable on the gamut of our solar system for a box of 500 coins to spontaneously move to the 500 H microstate -- a point which you and others of your ilk recently had such a hard time grasping, indeed outright consistently refused to acknowledge. Which, is again close to the statistical form of the 2nd law. In short, all of this is of a piece, and points to a systematic gap in your understanding or acceptance, one that is evidently driven by the reigning orthodoxy of our day that requires that in some warm pond or the equivalent, spontaneously, complex highly specific functional organisation somehow spontaneously gave rise to a metabolising, code-based information self replicating automaton, the living cell which then similarly manged to elaborate itself into the world of life by the Darwinian magic ratchet. To suggest plausibility for that, it has been suggested that inflow and outflow of mass and/or energy are adequate to account for such. In fact, inflow of energy into a body is going to naturally increase accessible states and will tend to disorder the initial state, which in a system liable to "forget" its path to current state will then be lost and irrecoverable for practical purposes. As both the coins case and the marbles in a box case will suffice to show: there is a strong tendency to move to the clusters of states that are not simply describable and fit no particular specific configuration based functional pattern. Anyway, an information-oriented summary of what entropy fundamentally means (one that I would now use in some form if I were to teach students in either comms theory or thermodynamics), is that it is a metric of the average missing information to specify the micro-level distribution of mass and energy in a body or system, as described at gross or macro [e.g. lab] level on typical macro- state variables. Thus, that absence of knowledge leads us to have to treat the state as to that extent random, and so we end up constrained by things like the Carnot theorem on maximum harvestable work, or the like. KFkairosfocus
July 5, 2013
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Elizabeth B Liddle:
"So what then happens to the entropy of the designer?"
To ask about "the entropy of the designer" is like to ask "when Eternity goes to the cinema, does it pay the ticket?". Please, if you are an intelligent Lady you cannot say such things... Entropy affects the physical only, not the metaphysical. The anti-evolution argument from the 2nd law is simple. Are you evolutionists who obfuscate it, for you know well you are defending the indefensible. No need of speaking of entropy. In nuce the 2nd law says that *all* things go towards probability. Evolution says that *countless* things went towards improbability. How can they match? Have you ever seen a system that self-adjusts? No. Have you ever seen a system that self-constructs? No, a fortiori. Have you ever seen a system that breaks down? Yes, countless times, every day. All above *facts* are consequence of the 2nd law (and all contradict evolution). About the 2nd law, you evolutionists "open the systems" but unfortunately close your eyes...niwrad
July 4, 2013
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How about starting here, cantor. I wrote:
Think of a mixture of gaseous nitrogen, helium, and radon. To any physicist, there would be a single entropy associated with the mixture. To Granville, there are at least four entropies and four applicable second laws! The nitrogen entropy could be high while the heat entropy is low, and the other two are who knows what. Each of the four follows its own version of the second law.
Do you disagree with my characterization of X-entropy?keiths
July 4, 2013
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keiths@138: Can you defend X-entropy, or are you just venting?
That sort of dodging may work where you normally hang out, but it won't fly here. Can you give an informed, respectful, well-reasoned, articulate critique of X-entropy, or are you just venting?cantor
July 4, 2013
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cantor, Can you defend X-entropy, or are you just venting?keiths
July 4, 2013
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keiths@134: I’ve made a substantive case for why Granville’s X-entropy concept is ridiculous.
Not in this thread you haven't. If you've posted a calm, well-reasoned, thorough and articulate explication of your views on this matter elsewhere then link to it here.cantor
July 4, 2013
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keiths@134: I understand that it upsets you to see Granville’s paper collapse under scrutiny
Your understanding about what "upsets me" is incorrect.cantor
July 4, 2013
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Liddle@127: What does M stand for, above?
M is a number. The precise value of M is unknowable, but an intuitive argument is made that it is vastly less than factorial(52). Define two macrostates for the deck: 1) the order of the deck is “macroscopically describable" 2) the order of the deck is not “macroscopically describable" The microstates are the factorial 52 different possible orderings of the deck. The first macrostate above has M associated microstates. The second has factorial(52) minus M microstates. The probability of getting macrostate1 for any random shuffle is M/factorial(52). Shuffling the deck is now like flipping an unfair coin. How you go about discerning "macroscopic describability" is a point of considerable contention (understatement).cantor
July 4, 2013
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cantor, I've made a substantive case for why Granville's X-entropy concept is ridiculous. If you disagree with what I've written, then tell us exactly what you disagree with and why. If you don't understand why X-entropy is ridiculous, then ask and I will explain it further. I understand that it upsets you to see Granville's paper collapse under scrutiny, but the point of this thread is to examine the paper, warts and all. The paper is on the table. It is open to criticism, and X-entropy is a concept well worth criticizing.keiths
July 4, 2013
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keiths@132: If you don’t understand why that is so ridiculous, then ask me and I will spell it out for you.
If you want to be taken seriously, lose the arrogance and attitude, and start making substantive posts instead of mockery.cantor
July 4, 2013
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cantor:
What is it about the concept of X-entropy that you find so contemptuous? Talk math and physics please, if you are able.
I already did, cantor:
Think of a mixture of gaseous nitrogen, helium, and radon. To any physicist, there would be a single entropy associated with the mixture. To Granville, there are at least four entropies and four applicable second laws! The nitrogen entropy could be high while the heat entropy is low, and the other two are who knows what. Each of the four follows its own version of the second law.
If you don't understand why that is so ridiculous, then ask me and I will spell it out for you.keiths
July 4, 2013
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Moreover, I will correct an(other) error of my own: I said that Shannon entropy was negatively correlated with thermodynamic entropy. That is not correct. It's somewhat meaningless, but to the extent that it has meaning, it was incorrect. Shannon entropy has the same equation as thermodynamic entropy (give or take a constant), so when we use things like dice or coins as a metaphor for energy states, the answer in Shannon entropy will be a perfectly good metaphor for thermodynamic entropy. What I should have said is that the amount of information contained in the macrostate description of a high entropy system tells you far less about the state of any one element than the same description of a low entropy system. So high thermodynamic entropy means low information in the description of the macrostate. It doesn't mean low Shannon entropy.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 4, 2013
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You are absolutely right, Timaeus, I should have phrased it as you suggested. I apologise to cs3.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 4, 2013
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Elizabeth (104): A minor point about conversational stance: "And cs3 is making exactly the same error!" Note the difference in "flavor" between this statement and: "And cs3 appears to me to be making the same error that I think you are making." The idea conveyed in both cases is roughly the same, but there is a difference in subtext. The subtext of the second is what you've said all along when questioned about your level of expertise: "I fully admit that I don't have formal qualifications in X or Y. When I make statements in those fields, I am expressing my opinion, based on my own general knowledge of science and my own reasoning. I welcome differences of opinion as I may be in error. I am not asking for anyone to take me as an authority, and I don't claim my judgment is the final word." The subtext of the first formulation is: "I have a full understanding of the relationship of the ideas of entropy, order, etc., as they are used by physicists, and I *know* (not just think) that Granville's definitions and/or his application of them is wrong. And I have a full understanding of what cs3 wrote, and I am *certain* that none of the discussions he quotes from full-time physicists in any way conflicts with my own understanding of thermodynamics, and I am *certain* that his account does not in any way improve upon Granville's, and I am *certain* that they are both wrong. My understanding of thermodynamics, which up until I started reading Sewell's articles was only that of a non-physicist with a decent general knowledge of basic physics, is now, due to several quick lookups over the past 72 hours on the internet and in one or two textbooks I have lying around, that advanced and secure. I can now declare, as a qualified referee, who is right and wrong, and there is no danger at all that I, in being both referee and a partisan on one side, may be just slightly off in my verdict." What I'm trying to get you to see, Elizabeth, is how you sound to many people here; not just sometimes, not even just often, but pretty nearly *always*, on *any* scientific topic on which you make a judgment, whether you have a great deal of prior background or only started boning up on the subject for the first time in response to an ID article you don't approve of. You never fail to be polite, which is great, compared to most ID critics, and we can all thank you for that; but you project an unwavering confidence in all your judgments, in your field or out of it, that perhaps unbeknownst to you generates resentment. Indeed, this same quality of uncanny confidence in one's judgment about a wide range of matters is seen in Matzke, who doesn't hesitate to correct botanists on botany, render decisive verdicts on new ID books (no matter what the subject) within 48 hours, etc., and who has never (at least, on threads here where I have been present) granted a scientific point of any importance to any ID person who disagrees with him or modified any of his conclusions in the slightest (even on the characterization of certain ID proponents as creationists where he has been shown to be flat-out wrong). Always it is he who knows the science, he who has the best argument, and the others who either don't know the science or don't reason well. Of course, your manners are much preferable to Matzke's, which are thuggish (though not as obnoxious as those of Shallit, Myers, and Moran), but still, when the same person in every column on this website on which she posts is *always* the teacher, *always* the corrector, *always* the "Renaissance man" who can jump into any field and speak with a confidence which shows no visible difference to the confidence of the specialist, and is *never* the uncertain one, *never* the one who asks for intellectual help, etc., it gets wearying, especially when we all know that there are Nobel Prize winners and NAS members who are extremely deferential and hesitant in speaking out of their fields. I do not know if you can sense how you might appear to others; you may believe that, since your own motives are untainted by ego, everyone else will see you that way. And I am not saying that your motives *are* egocentric; I'm merely saying something about what I believe to be a common personal reaction to your way of conversing. Take this for what it is worth. If it helps, make the necessary adjustments; if it doesn't, well, I won't repeat it.Timaeus
July 4, 2013
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Essentially Granville has confused "order" as in "orderly sequence" with "order" as in "number of possible sequences". The sense in which low entropy means "order" is simply that a low entropy system has very few possible ways of rearranging itself (e.g. 2 fenders and 80 spark plugs). It does not mean that it is arranged in some specific interesting way (fenders on the shelf, spark plugs in the drawers).Elizabeth B Liddle
July 4, 2013
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What does M stand for, above? From your post it sounds like you mean some kind of specified sequence, or set of sequences - something like CSI. But that has nothing to do with entropy. Which is the point I keep making. There is nothing special about a sorted deck from the point of view of entropy, whether Shannon entropy, or as a metaphor for thermodynamic entropy. A sorted deck has no more or less Shannon entropy than a shuffled deck. Entropy, contra too many bad textbooks, has nothing to do with order or disorder. It has to do with the number of ways (microstates) which the elements of the macrostate can be arranged. The deck of cards is a bad example because a card cannot change "state" (change from one face to another). However coins on a table can take two states. So to make it slightly more complex, let's take dice. If we lay a set of 6d ice on a table, sixes up, there is only one way - one microstate - of arranging the dice without turning them over. The "macrostate" description is "all sixes". This description also gives us perfect information about the state of each die - we know that any one we point to, blindfolded, is six-up. If we lay 3 of them ones up, and three sixes up, there are 20 ways in which we can arrange them without turning them over. The macrostate description now ("half ones, half sixes"), and less informative - if we point blindfold to a die, we have a probability of .5 of being correct (we know it is either a one or a six). If we lay them down with 1 of each possible face up, the macroscopic description is: "1/6 ones, 1/6 twos, 1/6 3s, 1/6 fours, 1/6 fives, 1/6 sixes". We now have only a 1 in 6 chance of being correct if we point blindfolded and guess. The entropy of of the last macrostate is much higher than the first. As a result there is much less certainty about the state any die is in, and the information contained in the macrostate description is reduced. But the entropy is not affected by shuffling the dice around, as long as you don't turn them over. This is why Granville is incorrect. He has mistaken the word "entropy" to mean something about how "ordered" or "disordered" the elements are, not how many possible microstates the system has. In terms of Shannon entropy, a town reduced to rubble, as long as nothing is added or missing, has the same entropy as the town before the tornado. It possibly has less literal thermodynamic entropy, as some things may be closer to the ground, but possibly more (sofas up trees). But the fact that it looks a mess has nothing to do with entropy.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 4, 2013
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Liddle@124: I think you have misunderstood Young & Freedman
I think you misunderstood my post #120. There are M ways of arranging a 52-card deck that will result in “macroscopically describable order”. There are 52!-M ways of arranging a 52-card deck that will result in “no macroscopically describable order”. The probably of obtaining a deck with “macroscopically describable order” by random shuffling is M/52! The problem, as you correctly identified in your post #111, is estimating a value of M. That is the key to the argument. If M is vastly less than 52!, then the probability of a random shuffle resulting in a deck that has “macroscopically describable order” is vanishingly small.cantor
July 4, 2013
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Chesterton:
“if evolution is incompatible with the 2nd Law (which it isn’t) why isn’t a Designer? Both (allegedly) cause otherwise improbable things to happen.” Because a designer can “work” that is what you need to reduce entropy according with the 2nd Law.
So what then happens to the entropy of the designer?Elizabeth B Liddle
July 4, 2013
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Cantor:
It is if you look at it the following way (which I believe is Sewell’s argument)… altering Young&Freedman thus: Compared to the state “macroscopically describable order” (of the deck of cards), the state “no macroscopically describable order” has a much greater number of possible microstates, much greater disorder, and hence much greater entropy (which is a quantitative measure of disorder).
I think you have misunderstood Young & Freedman. The equivalent macroscopic description to "all heads" or "half heads half tails" for your cards might be "all ace of spades" versus "each card a different face". If all your coins are heads, the number of way of arranging them is 1. If half are Tails, the number of ways is N!/(N-T)!*T!),where N is the number of coins and T is the number of Tails. If your cards are 52 different cards, the number of ways of arranging them is 52!, regardless of how they are arranged when you find them. However, if they are all Ace of Spades, the number of ways is, like All Heads, 1. So shuffling your deck makes no difference to the Shannon entropy or to the "thermodynamic entropy" in Freedman & Young's metaphor. What matters for the amount of entropy is the number of possible arrangements, not the arrangement the macrostate happens to be in. The macrostate description is simply the proportions of each, not the order.
This leads directly to your question at post 111.
It does. I asked:
So which arrangement has the greatest number of corresponding microstates, a junkyard before a tornado, or a junkyard after a tornado?
And the answer is: they are both the same, as long as the inventory is unaltered. The arrangement doesn't matter - the macroscopic state is simply the inventory.
Similarly, which arrangement has the greatest number of corresponding microstates, the parts of a self-build computer before you have assembled it, or the parts of a self-build computer after you have assembled it?
Again, the answer is that, according to Freedman & Young (and me!) both are the same.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 4, 2013
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"if evolution is incompatible with the 2nd Law (which it isn’t) why isn’t a Designer? Both (allegedly) cause otherwise improbable things to happen." Because a designer can "work" that is what you need to reduce entropy according with the 2nd Law.Chesterton
July 4, 2013
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keiths@119: It’s as if Granville is saying “When you go to the grocery, be sure to bring enough potato-money and milk-money, because you can’t buy potatoes with milk-money or milk with potato-money.” What a confused mess. This paper is a train wreck
Can you please post something more useful than childish ridicule? What is it about the concept of X-entropy that you find so contemptuous? Talk math and physics please, if you are able.cantor
July 4, 2013
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Laws are not violated by definition. No IDer says that the 2nd law is violated. The problem is another. It is indeed evolution (if it happened, but it didn’t happen) that would be a violation to the 2nd law. Because evolution and the 2nd law are incompatible. One goes right while the other goes left. One (2nd law) states that systems go towards probability, the other (evolution) absurdly pretends to go towards improbability. When will you stop trying to conciliate the incompatibles?
Because a) Granville is simply wrong when he says the two are incompatible, and b) if evolution is incompatible with the 2nd Law (which it isn't) why isn't a Designer? Both (allegedly) cause otherwise improbable things to happen. And talking of incompatibles, why are half Granville's defenders (and half of Granville) saying that Granville isn't actually talking about the 2nd Law of thermodynamics but some other kind of entropy that also has (or seems to have) a 2nd Law, and the other half of his defenders (and the other half of Granville) saying, but evolution if true would violate the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics? It must be clear to pretty well everyone now that his argument is a mess (it seems also to becoming clear to Granville, which is to his credit).Elizabeth B Liddle
July 4, 2013
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Liddle@116: That is not a parallel example.
It is if you look at it the following way (which I believe is Sewell's argument)... altering Young&Freedman thus: Compared to the state "macroscopically describable order" (of the deck of cards), the state “no macroscopically describable order” has a much greater number of possible microstates, much greater disorder, and hence much greater entropy (which is a quantitative measure of disorder). This leads directly to your question at post 111.cantor
July 4, 2013
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Cantor and Lizzie, One of the weirder aspects of Granville's paper, which no one has yet mentioned, is his concept of "X-entropy." It's not just that Granville confuses disorder (as in messy houses or tornado rubble) with thermodynamic disorder. He actually thinks that there are thousands of different kinds of entropy and thousands of instances of the second law:
However, if we define “X-entropy” to be the entropy associated with any diffusing component X (for example, X might be heat), and, since entropy measures disorder, “X-order” to be the negative of X-entropy, a closer look at the equations for entropy change shows that they not only say that the X order cannot increase in an isolated system, but that they also say that in a non-isolated system the X order cannot increase faster than it is imported through the boundary.
Think of a mixture of gaseous nitrogen, helium, and radon. To any physicist, there would be a single entropy associated with the mixture. To Granville, there are at least four entropies and four applicable second laws! The nitrogen entropy could be high while the heat entropy is low, and the other two are who knows what. Each of the four follows its own version of the second law. It's as if Granville is saying "When you go to the grocery, be sure to bring enough potato-money and milk-money, because you can't buy potatoes with milk-money or milk with potato-money." What a confused mess. This paper is a train wreck, and I mean disordered, not high entropy. It amazes me that people are still trying to defend it.keiths
July 4, 2013
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"Which has its problems indeed, but nothing to the problem of apparently claiming that evolution, if the cause of living things, would mean that the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics has been violated!"
Laws are not violated by definition. No IDer says that the 2nd law is violated. The problem is another. It is indeed evolution (if it happened, but it didn't happen) that would be a violation to the 2nd law. Because evolution and the 2nd law are incompatible. One goes right while the other goes left. One (2nd law) states that systems go towards probability, the other (evolution) absurdly pretends to go towards improbability. When will you stop trying to conciliate the incompatibles?niwrad
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