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Where is the difference here?

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Since my Cornell conference contribution has generated dozens of critical comments on another thread, I feel compelled to respond. I hope this is the last time I ever have to talk about this topic, I’m really tired of it.

Here are two scenarios:

1. A tornado hits a town, turning houses and cars into rubble. Then, another tornado hits, and turns the rubble back into houses and cars.

2. The atoms on a barren planet spontaneously rearrange themselves, with the help of solar energy and under the direction of four unintelligent forces of physics alone, into humans, cars, high-speed computers, libraries full of science texts and encyclopedias, TV sets, airplanes and spaceships. Then, the sun explodes into a supernova, and, with the help of solar energy, all of these things turn back into dust.

It is almost universally agreed in the scientific community that the second stage (but not the first) of scenario 1 would violate the second law of thermodynamics, at least the more general statements of this law (eg, “In an isolated system, the direction of spontaneous change is from order to disorder” see footnote 4 in my paper). It is also almost universally agreed that the first stage of scenario 2 does not violate the second law. (Of course, everyone agrees that there is no conflict in the second stage.) Why, what is the difference here?

Every general physics book which discusses evolution and the second law argues that the first stage of scenario 2 does not violate the second law because the Earth is an open system, and entropy can decrease in an open system as long as the decrease is compensated by increases outside the Earth. I gave several examples of this argument in section 1, if you can find a single general physics text anywhere which makes a different argument in claiming that evolution does not violate the second law, let me know which one.

Well, this same compensation argument can equally well be used to argue that the second tornado in scenario 1 does not violate the second law: the Earth is an open system, tornados receive their energy from the sun, any decrease in entropy due to a tornado that turns rubble into houses and cars is easily compensated by increases outside the Earth. It is difficult to define or measure entropy in scenario 2, but it is equally difficult in scenario 1.

I’ll save you the trouble: there is only one reason why nearly everyone agrees that the second law is violated in scenario 1 and not scenario 2: because there is a widely believed theory as to how the evolution of life and of human intelligence happened, while there is no widely believed theory as to how a tornado could turn rubble into houses and cars. There is no other argument which can be made as to why the second law is not violated in scenario 2, that could not equally well be applied to argue that it is not violated in scenario 1 either.

Well, in this paper, and every other piece I have written on this topic, including my new Bio-Complexity paper , and the video below, I have acknowledged that, if you really can explain scenario 2, then it does not violate the basic principle behind the second law. In my conclusions in the Cornell contribution, I wrote:

Of course, one can still argue that the spectacular increase in order seen on Earth is consistent with the underlying principle behind the second law, because what has happened here is not really extremely improbable. One can still argue that once upon a time…a collection of atoms formed by pure chance that was able to duplicate itself, and these complex collections of atoms were able to pass their complex structures on to their descendents generation after generation, even correcting errors. One can still argue that, after a long time, the accumulation of genetic accidents resulted in greater and greater information content in the DNA of these more and more complex collections of atoms, and eventually something called “intelligence” allowed some of these collections of atoms to design cars and trucks and spaceships and nuclear power plants. One can still argue that it only seems extremely improbable, but really isn’t, that under the right conditions, the influx of stellar energy into a planet could cause atoms to rearrange themselves into computers and laser printers and the Internet.

Of course, if you can come up with a nice theory on how tornados could turn rubble into houses and cars, you can argue that the second law is not violated in scenario 1 either.

Elizabeth and KeithS, you are welcome to go back into your complaints about what an idiot Sewell is to think that dust spontaneously turning into computers and the Internet might violate “the basic principle behind the second law,” and how this bad paper shows that all of the Cornell contributions were bad, but please first give me another reason, other than the one I acknowledged, why there is a conflict with the second law (or at least the fundamental principle behind the second law) in scenario 1 and not in scenario 2? (Or perhaps you suddenly now don’t see any conflict with the second law in scenario 1 either, that is an acceptable answer, but now you are in conflict with the scientific consensus!)

And if you can’t think of another reason, what in my paper do you disagree with, it seems we are in complete agreement!!

[youtube 259r-iDckjQ]

Comments
Hi Keith, Do we know each other from way back at ARN?Bilbo I
July 3, 2013
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One more closing comment, although I admit it is a little snarky :) For the Darwinists arguing that the Second Law is only about heat energy and not about probability, I think your view of the Second Law is about 150 years out of date (when the first formulations were all just about heat). However, your view of biology is also about 150 years out of date (when Darwin formulated his theory, unaware of the complex molecular machinery within the cell), so I guess at least you are consistent in that regard. :)CS3
July 3, 2013
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Hi, Bilbo! Long, long time no see!keiths
July 3, 2013
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Hopefully a few citations and comments will help clarify that it is not Sewell who is the one who is confused on this issue. From University Physics by Young and Freedman (one of the most widely used calculus-based general physics textbooks), in a section entitled "Microscopic Interpretation of Entropy" in the chapter "The Second Law of Thermodynamics":
Entropy is a measure of the disorder of the system as a whole. To see how to calculate entropy microscopically, we first have to introduce the idea of macroscopic and microscopic states. Suppose you toss N identical coins on the floor, and half of them show heads and half show tails. This is a description of the large-scale or macroscopic state of the system of N coins. A description of the microscopic state of the system includes information about each individual coin: Coin 1 was heads, coin 2 was tails, coin 3 was tails, and so on. There can be many microscopic states that correspond to the same macroscopic description. For instance, with N=4 coins there are six possible states in which half are heads and half are tails. The number of microscopic states grows rapidly with increasing N; for N=100 there are 2^100 = 1.27x10^30 microscopic states, of which 1.01x10^29 are half heads and half tails. The least probable outcomes of the coin toss are the states that are either all heads or all tails. It is certainly possible that you could throw 100 heads in a row, but don't bet on it: the possibility of doing this is only 1 in 1.27x10^30. The most probable outcome of tossing N coins is that half are heads and half are tails. The reason is that this macroscopic state has the greatest number of corresponding microscopic states. To make the connection to the concept of entropy, note that N coins that are all heads constitutes a completely ordered macroscopic state: the description "all heads" completely specifies the state of each one of the N coins. The same is true if the coins are all tails. But the macroscopic description "half heads, half tails" by itself tells you very little about the state (heads or tails) of each individual coin. We say that the system is disordered because we know so little about its microscopic state. Compared to the state "all heads" or "all tails", the state "half heads, half tails" has a much greater number of possible microstates, much greater disorder, and hence much greater entropy (which is a quantitative measure of disorder). Now instead of N coins, consider a mole of an ideal gas containing Avogadro's number of molecules. The macroscopic state of this gas is given by its pressure p, volume V, and temperature T; a description of the microscopic state involves stating the position and velocity for each molecule in the gas. At a given pressure, volume, and temperature the gas may be in any one of an astronomically large number of microscopic states, depending on the positions and velocities of its 6.02x10^23 molecules. If the gas undergoes a free expansion into a greater volume, the range of possible positions increases, as does the number of possible microscopic states. The system becomes more disordered, and the entropy increases. We can draw the following general conclusion: For any system the most probable macroscopic state is the one with the greatest number of corresponding microscopic states, which is also the macroscopic state with the greatest disorder and the greatest entropy.
Sewell's statement follows directly from this: in an isolated system, the reason natural forces (such as tornados) "may turn a spaceship, or a TV set, or a computer into a pile of rubble but not vice-versa is also probability: of all the possible arrangements atoms could take, only a very small percentage could fly to the moon and back, or receive pictures and sound from the other side of the Earth, or add, subtract, multiply and divide real numbers with high accuracy." In an open system, of course, entropy can decrease. To use Liddle's example from another thread, a drop of water in an open system can release heat and form a snowflake. The entropy of the system has decreased, but the entropy of the surroundings and the overall universe has increased. However, that does not mean that the water molecules can assume just any more ordered (more improbable) state; they are still subject to the four fundamental forces, and will do what those predict they will do in that state. They will not, for example, assume the shape of a detailed reproduction of Abraham Lincoln's face. Similarly, the Earth is an open system, so there can be local entropy decreases - but what happens is still subject to the four fundamental forces. Evolution is not a force that moves particles; it is just a description of a process, which still must ultimately be the result of the four fundamental forces acting on particles. In the case of going from a barren planet to one filled with human brains, computers, and encyclopedias, the scale and type of the increase in order (including CSI) is far greater and far different than in the case of the snowflake. Nevertheless, as Sewell as always allowed, "it is not always easy to say what the Second Law predicts", so nothing stops you from arguing that, just as snowflakes are what the actions of the gravitation, electromagnetic, and strong and weak nuclear forces predict will form from a drop of water when entering the lower entropy state, maybe houses are what the four unintelligent fundamental forces predict will form from a pile of rubble when entering a lower entropy state (in a process called "reverse tornado"), and maybe human brains, computers, and encyclopedias are what the four fundamental forces predict will form from a barren planet when sunlight enters it (in a process called "Darwinian evolution"). (Well, maybe some of the work by Dembski and others, if correct, will stop you from arguing that the unintelligent forces created the CSI, but that is beyond the scope of Sewell's argument here.) In the realm of life, you can find much more spectacular local increases in order in open systems, perhaps even on a par with reverse tornados turning rubble into houses (though still not developing new CSI). For example, in the oft-cited plant example, in an open system receiving sunlight, a plant can convert soil and water into a beautiful flower without violating the Second Law, because that actually is what the four fundamental forces predict will happen in this case - but only because there exists within the plant an extremely elegant mechanism to achieve this. Using examples from life, however, is decidedly "cheating" when discussing ID, because the whole point of ID is the claim that life is designed. Thus, a flowering plant is not an example of what the four unintelligent forces alone can do, according to ID; rather, it is an example of how a well-designed system can be engineered to achieve impressive local increases of some type of order without itself violating the Second Law in any way. Restricting ourselves to only the abiotic world (and also excluding creations of human intelligence), where it is agreed the four unintelligent forces are operating unaided, there may be some examples mildly more interesting than the snowflake, but obviously nothing remotely similar in scale or type to a reverse tornado constructing houses from rubble or Darwinian evolution constructing human brains, computers, and encyclopedias from a barren planet. While at least some on here seem to have no qualms with making this argument that a planet full of spaceships and the Internet is not an improbable result of the actions of the gravitational, electromagnetic, and strong and weak nuclear forces acting unaided on a sunlit barren planet, many scientists realized the absurdity of trying to make this argument, and thus developed the compensation argument to avoid having to argue that is not improbable. According to the compensation argument, all the Second Law requires is that the overall entropy of the universe must increase, so we can say absolutely nothing about what can and cannot happen within an open system, just so long as the entropy decrease due to any more improbable arrangement achieved in the system is offset by an equal or greater increase of some other entropy. Then, you can say, sure, human brains, computers, and encyclopedias are an extremely improbable result of the actions of four unintelligent forces, but the increase in entropy due to solar influx is even greater, so there is no problem with the Second Law. This illogical argument is what Sewell refutes in his paper. The laws of probability are not suspended when a system is opened; you just have to then consider what is entering and leaving the system when deciding what is or is not improbable. What enters or leaves the system must be causally related to the event that was extremely improbable when the system was isolated in order for it not to be improbable when the system is open; it cannot merely "compensate" for it in some global accounting scheme. To continue the coin flipping example, let us define a system as a thousand coins on a table, all being periodically re-flipped. The system is open, but only heat is being exchanged with the surroundings. According to the compensation argument, all the coins landing on heads would be extremely improbable in the isolated system, but, once the system is open and exchanging enough heat with the surroundings, we can no longer say anything about the heads/tails state of the system - they might well now all land on heads, just so long as whatever entropy decrease there is due to the more improbable arrangement is at least offset by the entropy increase from the heat exchange. By Sewell's refutation, we know this is not true. The coins will be no more likely to land on all heads in this open system than in the isolated system, because what is entering or leaving (heat) is unrelated to heads/tails entropy. In order for all heads to become not extremely improbable, something would have to enter or leave the system that is relevant to heads/tails entropy (and, more specifically, in a way that makes all heads not extremely improbable). For example, if the coins all had little magnets with one pole on the heads side and the other pole on the tails side, and a magnet were placed under the table, with the magnetic field entering the system, all heads would no longer be extremely improbable. As a postscript, below are some more quotes from scientists who are apparently just as "confused" as Sewell, thinking the Second Law is related to probability and not just heat energy, followed by some more quotes stating the compensation argument: From University Physics by Young and Freedman:
There is a relationship between the direction of a process and the disorder or randomness of the resulting state. For example, imagine a tedious sorting job, such as alphabetizing a thousand book titles written on file cards. Throw the alphabetized stack of cards into the air. Do they come down in alphabetical order? No, their tendency is to come down in a random or disordered state. In the free expansion of a gas, the air is more disordered after it has expanded into the entire box than when it was confined in one side, just as your clothes are more disordered when scattered all over your floor than when confined to your closet.
From a different edition of University Physics, in a section about "building physical intuition" about the Second Law:
A new deck of playing cards is sorted out by suit (hearts, diamonds, clubs, spades) and by number. Shuffling a deck of cards increases its disorder into a random arrangement. Shuffling a deck of cards back into its original order is highly unlikely.
From Basic Physics by Kenneth Ford:
Imagine a motion picture of any scene of ordinary life run backward. You might watch...a pair of mangled automobiles undergoing instantaneous repair as they back apart. Or a dead rabbit rising to scamper backward into the woods as a crushed bullet re-forms and flies backward into a rifle while some gunpowder is miraculously manufactured out of hot gas. Or something as simple as a cup of coffee on a table gradually becoming warmer as it draws heat from its cooler surroundings. All of these backward-in-time views and a myriad more that you can quickly think of are ludicrous and impossible for one reason only - they violate the second law of thermodynamics. In the actual scene of events, entropy is increasing. In the time reversed view, entropy is decreasing.
From General Chemistry, 5th Edition, by Whitten, Davis, and Peck:
The Second Law of Thermodynamics is based on our experiences. Some examples illustrate this law in the macroscopic world. When a mirror is dropped, it can shatter...The reverse of any spontaneous change is nonspontaneous, because if it did occur, the universe would tend toward a state of greater order. This is contrary to our experience. We would be very surprised if we dropped some pieces of silvered glass on the floor and a mirror spontaneously assembled.
Then, discussing a figure showing an isolated system consisting of two bulbs connected by an open stopcock containing molecules of two gasses (one red and one blue):
The ideas of entropy, order, and disorder are related to probability. The more ways an event can happen, the more probable that event is. In Figure 15-10b (showing both red and blue molecules randomly mixed in both bulbs) each individual red molecule is equally likely to be in either container, as is each individual blue molecule. As a result, there are many ways in which the mixed arrangement of Figure 15-10b can occur, so the probability of its occurrence is high, and so its entropy is high. In contrast, there is only one way the unmixed arrangement in Figure 15-10a (showing all red molecules in one bulb and all blue molecules in the other bulb) can occur. The resulting probability is extremely low, and the entropy of this arrangement is low.
From Isaac Asimov in "In the game of energy and thermodynamics, you can't even break even":
We have to work hard to straighten a room, but left to itself, it becomes a mess again very quickly and very easily.... How difficult to maintain houses, and machinery, and our own bodies in perfect working order; how easy to let them deteriorate. In fact, all we have to do is nothing, and everything deteriorates, collapses, breaks down, wears out — all by itself — and that is what the second law is all about.
From Asimov again:
You can argue, of course, that the phenomenon of life may be an exception [to the second law]. Life on earth has steadily grown more complex, more versatile, more elaborate, more orderly, over the billions of years of the planet’s existence. From no life at all, living molecules were developed, then living cells, then living conglomerates of cells, worms, vertebrates, mammals, finally Man. And in Man is a three-pound brain which, as far as we know, is the most complex and orderly arrangement of matter in the universe. How could the human brain develop out of the primeval slime? How could that vast increase in order (and therefore that vast decrease in entropy) have taken place?
I am pretty sure Asimov is not trying to say here, "wow, life, and especially human brains, sure burn well on my barbeque". Asimov then makes the compensation argument:
Remove the sun, and the human brain would not have developed. ... And in the billions of years that it took for the human brain to develop, the increase in entropy that took place in the sun was far greater; far, far greater than the decrease that is represented by the evolution required to develop the human brain.
As does Peter Urone in College Physics:
Some people misuse the second law of thermodynamics, stated in terms of entropy, to say that the existence and evolution of life violate the law and thus require divine intervention. ... It is true that the evolution of life from inert matter to its present forms represents a large decrease in entropy for living systems. But it is always possible for the entropy of one part of the universe to decrease, provided the total change in entropy of the universe increases.
And Angrist and Help in Order and Chaos:
In a certain sense the development of civilization may appear contradictory to the second law. ... Even though society can effect local reductions in entropy, the general and universal trend of entropy increase easily swamps the anomalous but important efforts of civilized man. Each localized, man-made or machine-made entropy decrease is accompanied by a greater increase in entropy of the surroundings, thereby maintaining the required increase in total entropy.
CS3
July 3, 2013
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Oh good, posted as Bilbo I.Bilbo I
July 3, 2013
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Arthur Hunt once described the action inside a cell as a hurricane, only much faster. Yet it resulted in the construction of multi-protein complexes. I imagine if parts of houses were attracted to each other, and could withstand the forces of a tornado throwing them together, a tornado could build a house. Interesting: I'm logged in as Bilbo I, but it shows that this comment will posted by "Anonymous." I wonder why.Bilbo I
July 3, 2013
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keiths @78: If criticizing Granville’s paper amounts to disrespect in your eyes... Baloney. You know full well what I am talking about.cantor
July 3, 2013
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Eric Anderson:
Well, certainly the open/closed nature of the system is essentially irrelevant. As is the alleged compensation “explanation” that is often offered by evolutionists (who, ironically, must be operating under the assumption that without such compensation there would be an issue).
Eric, The reason evolutionists talk about compensation is that IDers and creationists keep making bogus second law arguments!keiths
July 3, 2013
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KeithS @78: Granville opened this thread for the purpose of talking about his paper. That's correct. But you weren't content with limiting the discussion to the technical content of his paper. You couldn't resist bringing up the Springer affair. You derailed the conversation in that direction, and then gratuitously insulted Granville when he responded to what you said. How would talking about Jonathan Wells’ papers not be a change of subject? How would you bringing up the Springer affair not be a change of subject? And if not, how would responding to it then be a change of subject?cantor
July 3, 2013
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cantor, Granville opened this thread for the purpose of talking about his paper. How would talking about Jonathan Wells' papers not be a change of subject?
It amazes me how deferentially you treat Liddle and how disrespectful you are to Sewell.
If criticizing Granville's paper amounts to disrespect in your eyes, then call me disrespectful. My inclination is not to harp on it, but people here (including Granville himself) won't let the subject drop!keiths
July 3, 2013
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Elizabeth @32:
The 2nd Law is entirely irrelevant to the question as to whether life could form spontaneously.
Well, certainly the open/closed nature of the system is essentially irrelevant. As is the alleged compensation "explanation" that is often offered by evolutionists (who, ironically, must be operating under the assumption that without such compensation there would be an issue). 1. So the 2nd Law relates only to heat distribution, in your view? 2. And are there any metabolic or heat transfer or similar biological processes in living systems about which the 2nd Law might have something to say? 3. If the 2nd Law applies only to heat distribution, is there any similar principle at work with, say, functional mechanical structure or information?Eric Anderson
July 3, 2013
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F/N: First, it should be noted that the Clausius equation that quantifies entropy and its increase in an isolated system is based on how the heat transferring body A loses entropy and the heat gaining one B, INCREASES entropy. The increase exceeds the decrease algebraically because of the ratio d'q/T is bigger for B as T is lower. The physical meaning involved is that for B at the lower temp, the number of ways energy and mass at micro level can be arranged consistent with the macrostate so far increases above the corresponding decrease of A, that the net result for A and B is an increase. Which brings us to the point that raw heat addition to a system tends to INCREASE its entropy. To instead get work, there is a need for a coupling mechanism that performs physical work and as a rule exhausts waste heat to a yet colder body C. When that mechanism exhibits FSCO/I it is of course per that sign credibly designed. (This gets us back into the issues on searching large config spaces.) The second point is of course that the concepts of increasing ways mass and energy can be arranged is exactly a way of saying that we are dealing with configuration spaces (and more generally phase spaces) and that when the specific arrangement of a body at micro level is less constrained its entropy has risen. The sorts of narratives being told by evo mat advocates first typically fail to have empirical warrant -- show us the spontaneous origin of a self replicating entity, much less a code using one, and too often refuse to adequately address the issue of config states and clusters of states thus the tendency to move to the bulk cluster. And BTW one way to define entropy is in terms of average missing information to specify micro state given the info in the macrostate specified by lab observable conditions such as P, V, T etc. Prof Sewell has a serious point but we are not dealing here with those inclined to acknowledge anything that does not sit comfortably with their ideology. I suggest a read here early in the UD ID foundations series. There is also further discussion in my always linked note. TMLO by Thaxton et al is also worth reading. But I am not fooling myself that ideologues who cannot acknowledge the obvious and the mathematically evident about a 500 H coin flip result, will acknowledge something like this. To hope for that is a waste of time and energy. KFkairosfocus
July 3, 2013
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What are you asking her to do? She doesn’t have the power to edit her past comments. She had the power to post "Thanks, keiths". Also, I still don’t know what your other two links are supposed to mean. Here's the problem, Keith. These three statements seem to be mutually exclusive: 1) When something does work its entropy increases (Liddle) 2) The sun does work (Liddle) 3) The entropy of the sun is decreasing (KeithS) Liddle cannot logically affirm the third statement with a "Thanks, keiths" without clarifying or correcting one or both of the first two statements. NB: In my original post I quoted the statements verbatim. I paraphrased the statements to help KeithS understand, at his request, the point I was making. If the paraphrases do not reflect the author's intended meaning, now would be a good time to clarify what was intended.cantor
July 3, 2013
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He did try to change the subject, from his own paper to those written by Jonathan Wells. The subject, which you brought into this thread and which he was addressing, was the Springer decision not to publish the proceedings. To support his argument, he mentioned the other papers. It amazes me how deferentially you treat Liddle and how disrespectful you are to Sewell. It is most unbecoming.cantor
July 3, 2013
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cantor,
She may have “accepted the correction”, but she didn’t fix her argument.
What are you asking her to do? She doesn't have the power to edit her past comments. Also, I still don’t know what your other two links are supposed to mean. Try expressing it in this form: "I agree/disagree with X, because Y. Instead, I think Z." Where X is a description of the idea you agree or disagree with, Y is your reason for agreeing or disagreeing, and Z is your own view of the issue. That would help considerably.keiths
July 3, 2013
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cantor,
In that comment you were affirming Springer’s decision not to publish the proceedings. Granville’s post was replying to your affirmation. Don’t accuse him of changing the subject.
He did try to change the subject, from his own paper to those written by Jonathan Wells:
Elizabeth and KeithS, In my opinion, two of the best talks at Cornell were given by Jon Wells, one about the myth of junk DNA (“Not junk after all…”), the other about epigenetics (“The membrane code…”). Why don’t you download these and see if you think Springer was justified in canning their publication. His points in these talks are being spectacularly confirmed by recent discoveries. (See chapter 14, and pp400-2 of “Darwin’s Doubt” for example.) Do you really think these were inferior papers?
keiths
July 3, 2013
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I’m talking about Granville’s paper in that comment. That’s the point: Granville’s paper is terrible. Springer was right not to publish. In that comment you were affirming Springer's decision not to publish the proceedings. Granville's post was replying to your affirmation. Don't accuse him of changing the subject.cantor
July 3, 2013
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cantor, You’re behind. I already pointed that out to Lizzie and she already accepted the correction She may have "accepted the correction", but she didn't fix her argument. I don’t know what your other two links are supposed to mean. Perhaps if I paraphrase them? Link1: When something does work its entropy increases Link2: The sun does workcantor
July 3, 2013
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have a good holiday keith
You too, Upright.keiths
July 3, 2013
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cantor, I'm talking about Granville's paper in that comment. That's the point: Granville's paper is terrible. Springer was right not to publish. The BI symposium organizers should have rejected Granville's paper, but they didn't.keiths
July 3, 2013
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Granville, you started this thread so that we could discuss your paper. Why are you trying to change the subject? You brought up the Springer topic, not Granville.cantor
July 3, 2013
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How did that turtle get on the fencepost? There was sufficient entropy in its surroundings.
"promptly swatted down" "Promptly Swatted Down!!" . . . have a good holiday keithUpright BiPed
July 3, 2013
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I’ve already read your posts, Keith. My joke was better, even if you didn’t get it.
You may not be the most unbiased judge of your own jokes!Alan Fox
July 3, 2013
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Upright,
My joke was better, even if you didn’t get it.
Yes, pretend that it was merely a joke, and that you weren't actually trying to make a point. A point that was promptly swatted down.keiths
July 3, 2013
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niwrad
Comes to mind the old joke: Claude Shannon meets John von Neumann. Shannon: “John, I have problems with my last paper”. Von Neumann: “Why, what is it about?”. Shannon: “It is on information and entropy”. Von Neumann: “Claude, don’t worry, write anything you like, nobody understands what entropy is”…
Indeed. What is interesting is that Shannon entropy, which is mathematically very closely related to thermodynamic entropy, is actually negatively correlated with it. As thermodynamic entropy goes up, Shannon entropy goes down. The more ways there are of rearranging the system, the greater the Shannon entropy, and the lower the thermodynamic entropy. At near absolute zero, thermodynamic entropy is very high, and Shannon entropy is very low. This is what Granville seems not to understand - that a state of very high thermodynamic entropy is not "highly disordered", but more akin to 99 Heads and one Tail - precisely the "low probability" pattern people were inferring "Design" from in the another thread! ID authors really needs to figure out what they mean by "probability"! As I keep asking my students: "probability of what, given what?"Elizabeth B Liddle
July 3, 2013
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I've already read your posts, Keith. My joke was better, even if you didn't get it.Upright BiPed
July 3, 2013
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Upright Biped:
Moreover, the second law doesn’t impact my interest not because the earth is an open system, but because the information that organizes life on this planet is instanitated in local symbol system which is not determined by thermodynamic law).
Upright, If the second law doesn't "impact your interest", then why are you attempting to comment on entropy and getting it so badly wrong? I guess your lack of interest explains why you never bothered to learn about entropy or the second law.keiths
July 3, 2013
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Granville:
Elizabeth, In all my references to tornados, I’m focusing on what it does to the town it hits, not the tornado itself.
I know, and that's why I'm asking you about the tornado. If a tornado, which is a low entropy system, and thus an "improbable" system, but also an undesigned system, can form without violating the 2nd Law, why not other low entropy systems, such as houses and people? But clearly I do not dispute that tornadoes cannot turn rubble into houses! My point is that it isn't the 2nd Law that prevents them, it's simply that that's not what tornadoes do. The can do other low-probability things, though.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 3, 2013
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Granville Sewell:
A video of a real tornado shows entropy increasing, because a pile of rubble is a more probable state than a town of houses and cars.
cantor:
In the statement above, please clarify what kind of entropy you are referring to. Hopefully that will help keep the discussion focused on point.
cantor, Yes, that's exactly the problem. As Lizzie has been patiently explaining to him, Granville mistakenly thinks that 'entropy' means 'disorder', and that anything that seems disordered, like a pile of rubble after a tornado, must therefore have high entropy. The second law is a law of thermodynamics. Granville doesn't like that, because that means that the second law doesn't rule out evolution. To reach his desired conclusion, Granville therefore attempts to argue that the second law prohibits any extremely improbable event. That's a silly conflation. As I said earlier, I don’t need to invoke the second law to explain why I am unlikely to win the lottery. That same confusion pervades Granville's paper.keiths
July 3, 2013
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psssssst ... hey keith (I'm not really interested in what's merely possible in the minds of our opponents. Moreover, the second law doesn't impact my interest not because the earth is an open system, but because the information that organizes life on this planet is instanitated in local symbol system which is not determined by thermodynamic law).Upright BiPed
July 3, 2013
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