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Where is the difference here?

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Since my Cornell conference contribution has generated dozens of critical comments on another thread, I feel compelled to respond. I hope this is the last time I ever have to talk about this topic, I’m really tired of it.

Here are two scenarios:

1. A tornado hits a town, turning houses and cars into rubble. Then, another tornado hits, and turns the rubble back into houses and cars.

2. The atoms on a barren planet spontaneously rearrange themselves, with the help of solar energy and under the direction of four unintelligent forces of physics alone, into humans, cars, high-speed computers, libraries full of science texts and encyclopedias, TV sets, airplanes and spaceships. Then, the sun explodes into a supernova, and, with the help of solar energy, all of these things turn back into dust.

It is almost universally agreed in the scientific community that the second stage (but not the first) of scenario 1 would violate the second law of thermodynamics, at least the more general statements of this law (eg, “In an isolated system, the direction of spontaneous change is from order to disorder” see footnote 4 in my paper). It is also almost universally agreed that the first stage of scenario 2 does not violate the second law. (Of course, everyone agrees that there is no conflict in the second stage.) Why, what is the difference here?

Every general physics book which discusses evolution and the second law argues that the first stage of scenario 2 does not violate the second law because the Earth is an open system, and entropy can decrease in an open system as long as the decrease is compensated by increases outside the Earth. I gave several examples of this argument in section 1, if you can find a single general physics text anywhere which makes a different argument in claiming that evolution does not violate the second law, let me know which one.

Well, this same compensation argument can equally well be used to argue that the second tornado in scenario 1 does not violate the second law: the Earth is an open system, tornados receive their energy from the sun, any decrease in entropy due to a tornado that turns rubble into houses and cars is easily compensated by increases outside the Earth. It is difficult to define or measure entropy in scenario 2, but it is equally difficult in scenario 1.

I’ll save you the trouble: there is only one reason why nearly everyone agrees that the second law is violated in scenario 1 and not scenario 2: because there is a widely believed theory as to how the evolution of life and of human intelligence happened, while there is no widely believed theory as to how a tornado could turn rubble into houses and cars. There is no other argument which can be made as to why the second law is not violated in scenario 2, that could not equally well be applied to argue that it is not violated in scenario 1 either.

Well, in this paper, and every other piece I have written on this topic, including my new Bio-Complexity paper , and the video below, I have acknowledged that, if you really can explain scenario 2, then it does not violate the basic principle behind the second law. In my conclusions in the Cornell contribution, I wrote:

Of course, one can still argue that the spectacular increase in order seen on Earth is consistent with the underlying principle behind the second law, because what has happened here is not really extremely improbable. One can still argue that once upon a time…a collection of atoms formed by pure chance that was able to duplicate itself, and these complex collections of atoms were able to pass their complex structures on to their descendents generation after generation, even correcting errors. One can still argue that, after a long time, the accumulation of genetic accidents resulted in greater and greater information content in the DNA of these more and more complex collections of atoms, and eventually something called “intelligence” allowed some of these collections of atoms to design cars and trucks and spaceships and nuclear power plants. One can still argue that it only seems extremely improbable, but really isn’t, that under the right conditions, the influx of stellar energy into a planet could cause atoms to rearrange themselves into computers and laser printers and the Internet.

Of course, if you can come up with a nice theory on how tornados could turn rubble into houses and cars, you can argue that the second law is not violated in scenario 1 either.

Elizabeth and KeithS, you are welcome to go back into your complaints about what an idiot Sewell is to think that dust spontaneously turning into computers and the Internet might violate “the basic principle behind the second law,” and how this bad paper shows that all of the Cornell contributions were bad, but please first give me another reason, other than the one I acknowledged, why there is a conflict with the second law (or at least the fundamental principle behind the second law) in scenario 1 and not in scenario 2? (Or perhaps you suddenly now don’t see any conflict with the second law in scenario 1 either, that is an acceptable answer, but now you are in conflict with the scientific consensus!)

And if you can’t think of another reason, what in my paper do you disagree with, it seems we are in complete agreement!!

[youtube 259r-iDckjQ]

Comments
cantor:
the radiation emitted by the Sun actually works toward reducing its own entropy. You two need to fix this.
cantor, You're behind. I already pointed that out to Lizzie and she already accepted the correction. I don't know what your other two links are supposed to mean.keiths
July 3, 2013
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keiths:
But it [the second law] allows for local states that would otherwise be improbable, as long as sufficient entropy is exported to the surroundings.
Upright Biped:
>> Hey! How did that turtle get on the fencepost? >> Uh. There was sufficient entropy in its surroundings.
Upright, You're making exactly the same mistake as Granville. To say that something is allowed by the second law does not mean that it is probable. You can't conclude that something is probable if it doesn't violate the first law. Why would it be any different for the second law? See this comment.keiths
July 3, 2013
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Granville Sewell:
In my opinion, two of the best talks at Cornell were given by Jon Wells...Why don’t you download these and see if you think Springer was justified in canning their publication.
Granville, you started this thread so that we could discuss your paper. Why are you trying to change the subject?keiths
July 3, 2013
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"Entropy...It has a very precise meaning."
Comes to mind the old joke: Claude Shannon meets John von Neumann. Shannon: "John, I have problems with my last paper". Von Neumann: "Why, what is it about?". Shannon: "It is on information and entropy". Von Neumann: "Claude, don't worry, write anything you like, nobody understands what entropy is"...niwrad
July 3, 2013
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niwrad:
You evolutionists use the word “entropy” like a magic word, sort of “abracadabra”, able to import/export organization, like organization were a fluid at no cost, which can pass from a container to another.
Not at all. It has a very precise meaning. It is Granville, I suggest, who is using it as "magic word" - or rather he is using "order" as a magic word, taking its meaning in one context and applying it to another.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 3, 2013
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A video of a real tornado shows entropy increasing, because a pile of rubble is a more probable state than a town of houses and cars. In the statement above, please clarify what kind of entropy you are referring to. Hopefully that will help keep the discussion focused on point.cantor
July 3, 2013
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Boys (keiths, Elizabeth B Liddle et al. evolutionists), stop to defend the indefensible, to argue the unarguable, and finally pass to the ID camp.. Also, Prof. Sewell has promised: he will even graduate you in Thermodynamics. :)niwrad
July 3, 2013
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If a thing has low entropy, that just means its bits are arranged in a way that they can do work. the reason the sun can do this is that it is doing work the radiation emitted by the Sun actually works toward reducing its own entropy. You two need to fix this.cantor
July 3, 2013
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Elizabeth, In all my references to tornados, I'm focusing on what it does to the town it hits, not the tornado itself. A video of a real tornado shows entropy increasing, because a pile of rubble is a more probable state than a town of houses and cars. There are many more ways to arrange pieces of wood and metal into rubble, than into houses and cars. A video of a tornado running backward shows entropy decreasing, and shows a violation of the second law, because the town is going from a more probable state to a much less probable state. And it doesn't matter how much entropy is increasing outside the Earth, it is still extremely improbable that a tornado will turn rubble into houses and cars.Granville Sewell
July 3, 2013
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But it allows for local states that would otherwise be improbable, as long as sufficient entropy is exported to the surroundings.
>> Hey! How did that turtle get on the fencepost? >> Uh. There was sufficient entropy in its surroundings.Upright BiPed
July 3, 2013
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You evolutionists use the word "entropy" like a magic word, sort of "abracadabra", able to import/export organization, like organization were a fluid at no cost, which can pass from a container to another. Organization always entails low probability states. These probabilities cannot be imported/exported as matter/energy. If OOL on Earth has low probability, this probability doesn't become reachable by chance and necessity also if we consider the solar system overall. So, to say that OOL can happen on Earth because the Sun sends energy is nonsense. Energy alone has the power to organize nothing. Energy can power chemical reactions, but per se is not the first cause of biological organization.niwrad
July 3, 2013
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I'd like to ask Granville three questions, but anyone else feel free to answer: 1. Is a tornado chaotic? 2. Does a tornado represent a lower or higher entropy state than still air? 3. Is a tornado more ordered than still air?Elizabeth B Liddle
July 3, 2013
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Elizabeth and KeithS, In my opinion, two of the best talks at Cornell were given by Jon Wells, one about the myth of junk DNA ("Not junk after all..."), the other about epigenetics ("The membrane code..."). Why don't you download these and see if you think Springer was justified in canning their publication. His points in these talks are being spectacularly confirmed by recent discoveries. (See chapter 14, and pp400-2 of "Darwin's Doubt" for example.) Do you really think these were inferior papers?Granville Sewell
July 3, 2013
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Granville, you wrote in the OP:
Well, this same compensation argument can equally well be used to argue that the second tornado in scenario 1 [the one turns rubble back into houses and cars] does not violate the second law: the Earth is an open system, tornados receive their energy from the sun, any decrease in entropy due to a tornado that turns rubble into houses and cars is easily compensated by increases outside the Earth.
First, as Lizzie explained, you are inadvertently equivocating on the meaning of 'disorder':
What is NOT equivalent, is the word “disorder” in the sentence”: “entropy is disorder”; and the word “disorder” in the sentence “my house is in a state of disorder”. The equivocation, though I am sure not deliberate, is Granville’s, not ours.
But let's pretend for the sake of argument that you are correct and that 'disorder' in the sense of rubble is equivalent to 'disorder' in the sense of entropy. Under that (false) assumption, it is actually true that the tornado doesn't violate the second law if it reassembles rubble into houses and cars. It's enormously improbable, and we would be astonished if it happened, but that's not because it would violate the second law. We would be astonished for different reasons. You keep making this mistake. You want the second law to rule out everything you think is too improbable, including evolution. But the second law rules out nothing but violations of the second law, just as the first law rules out nothing but violations of the first law. Obviously. Evolution doesn't violate the second law, so the second law is irrelevant to your doubts about evolution. So not only is your paper shot through with errors, it is also misnamed. Entropy, Evolution and Open Systems is a mistaken description. You didn't even get the title of your paper right. Granville, you might be a fine mathematician for all I know, but you definitely haven't mastered physics. This paper is abysmal and should never have been accepted by the symposium organizers.keiths
July 3, 2013
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Niwrad
Same error. It is like to claim that here can happen a low probability event because there an high probability event happens. Non sequitur.
I'm not sure what you are saying. Can you rephrase? And when you do, can you make it clear how you are computing the probability of the events?Elizabeth B Liddle
July 3, 2013
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keiths: "Nothing about the second law prohibits a local decrease in entropy, such as you might find in the case of OOL, as long as the system exports a sufficient amount of entropy to its surroundings."
Elizabeth B Liddle: "However, there is nothing to stop a local increase in lumpiness occurring at the cost of increased smoothness in an adjacent region."
Same error. It is like to claim that here can happen a low probability event because there an high probability event happens. Non sequitur.niwrad
July 3, 2013
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niwrad, The question isn't the size of the configuration space of living configurations vs. non-living configurations. The question is "how likely was the formation of a primordial replicator that could kickstart the evolution process?" Anyway, that's a separate topic. My main point was to urge you not to confuse probability arguments in general with second law arguments in particular. Nothing about the second law prohibits a local decrease in entropy, such as you might find in the case of OOL, as long as the system exports a sufficient amount of entropy to its surroundings. That is the gist of the compensation argument that Granville misunderstands so badly.keiths
July 3, 2013
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niwrad:
This is like to ask why the laws of physics are those that are and not different. We can like them or not, but anyway the Law-giver stated them.
Well, no. There's a perfectly simple answer, which is that probable states are, by definition, more numerous than improbable states, and so it is more probable that a state will change from a less common state than a more common state than that it will change from a more common state to a less common state :) In other words, it's a tautology: More probable things are more probable, therefore they are more probable :) The usual statement of this formulation of the law (and they are all exactly equivalent) is as given in Granville's BIOcomplexity paper:
In an isolated system, the direction of spontaneous change is from an arrangement of lesser probability to an arrangement of greater probability
Which is of course nearly as tautological. It only makes sense if we examine what is actually meant by "probable". A "probability" is not actually a property of a state, but a property of the processes that cause such states. For example, when you toss 100 coins (I daren't say 500!), it is much more probable that you will get approximately equal numbers of heads and tails than extreme ratios. So if you stir up a bunch of coins that have been laid down mostly Heads, it is far more likely that you will end up with a more even ratio than a more extreme one. However, if you have a bunch of rectangular legos on a tray, and jiggle them up, you will tend to end up with more lying on their sides than standing tall, because it's more likely that a standing one will fall over when you jiggle the tray than that a lying down one will stand up. In other words the most "probable" state of an arrangement of things isn't a straightforward issue. We need to know something about the things and the way they are most likely to arrange themselves under a given set of conditions before we can say that one arrangement is more probable than another. So that statement of the 2nd Law is rather loose. However, it is meaningful, because what we can say, over all, is that smoother, flatter, lower contrast arrangements of stuff are more numerous than rougher, lumpier, high contrast arrangements. There are more ways to arrange a set of things where the state of one thing is uncorrelated with the state of thing next to it, than there are to arrange them so that they are correlated. This is why gasses diffuse - because there are more ways in which to make the position of one molecule uncorrelated with the position of the next, than ways in which they are correlated. And so, what that statement of the 2nd Law is saying is that smoother, lower contrast states are more probable than lumpier, higher contrast states, and so the spontaneous tendency will be towards smoother states, and these states we call "high entropy" states. However, there is nothing to stop a local increase in lumpiness occurring at the cost of increased smoothness in an adjacent region. This is why tornadoes form - tornadoes are low entropy regions that are generated as two contrasting volumes of air, one hot and one gold, mix, the final result being a smoother, more even-temperatured mass of air. For example, if I tip the tray of legos, many may stand on their ends, and most will congregate at one end. But that has happened because I did something that made my own arrangement of stuff a little more smoothly arranged - my sugar molecules denatured, for instance.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 3, 2013
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"Naturalistic origin of life implies extremely improbable states… How do you know that?"
Like all IDers and evolutionists, I know that because biological machineries involve configurations that are rare if related to the large amount of non living configurations.niwrad
July 3, 2013
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OK, go on. why is there a “universal tendency towards probable states”?
This is like to ask why the laws of physics are those that are and not different. We can like them or not, but anyway the Law-giver stated them.niwrad
July 3, 2013
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niwrad,
Naturalistic origin of life implies extremely improbable states...
How do you know that?
The 2nd law expresses the universal tendency towards probable states...
But it allows for local states that would otherwise be improbable, as long as sufficient entropy is exported to the surroundings. Don't fall into Granville's trap of equating probability arguments with second law arguments. They are distinct, though there is some overlap. I don't need to invoke the second law to explain why I am unlikely to win the lottery.keiths
July 3, 2013
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niwrad
Indeed the opposite. The 2nd law expresses the universal tendency towards probable states. Naturalistic origin of life implies extremely improbable states, then is exactly in the opposite direction.
OK, go on. why is there a "universal tendency towards probable states"?Elizabeth B Liddle
July 3, 2013
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Thanks, keiths :)Elizabeth B Liddle
July 3, 2013
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"The 2nd Law is entirely irrelevant to the question as to whether life could form spontaneously."
Indeed the opposite. The 2nd law expresses the universal tendency towards probable states. Naturalistic origin of life implies extremely improbable states, then is exactly in the opposite direction.niwrad
July 3, 2013
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Lizzie, One correction. You wrote:
People form at the cost of increased entropy in the food they consume, which themselves are local entropy decrease gained by virtue of the steadily increasing entropy in the sun.
It's not the entropy increase of the sun that compensates for the entropy decrease of food production. Rather, it's the entropy increase of Earth's surroundings. I explained this to Eric here.keiths
July 3, 2013
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Eric
This is one of the reasons why the “explanations” for how evolution could occur that rely on “because the Earth is an open system” are absolutely absurd. The openness or closedness of the Earth system is utterly irrelevant to the question of whether molecules can spontaneously come together to form life, or whether simple organisms can evolve into more complex organisms. To repeat: It is a complete red herring. As is the whole “compensation” idea.
It is. The solar system can be regarded as an almost closed system, but it is easily low-entropy enough to power chemical reactions, as we can see. The 2nd Law is entirely irrelevant to the question as to whether life could form spontaneously.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 3, 2013
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Dr. Sewell, If I recall correctly one of your original points in all of this was that a contention, originally put forward by Isaac Asimov- namely that the origin and evolution of life was only possible because earth is an open system - is wrong. I agree, its wrong, but I dont think you can use it to support your case. I think you conflate entropy with complexity. The 2 need not be related. Consider a volume containing random steel balls in motion. It doesnt matter if this is a closed or open system, complexity will never be generated. On the other hand, if it contains shapes, say a trefoil, with magnets on the tips, it will generate interesting patterns over time, regardless if its an open system or not. If a system has the inherant abititly to generate complexity and its an open system that opens the possibility that further complexity can be generated by an iterative process. Heres a simple case in point. Start with several cubic parsecs of diffuse elemental hydrogen. This is about as dull and uncomplex a state as one can imagine. Make this effectively a closed system and wait 15 billion years. At the end of that time you'll find a variety of complex stars with still more complex planetary systems composed of rocky and gaseous plants. Planets like Jupiter and Saturn are not only very complex objects, they're also quite beautiful and all of this comes as entropy increases. Its effectively a closed system since neither matter nor energy need to come from the outside. RodWRodW
July 3, 2013
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Cantor:
It seems 2LoT is the new “evolution”. It has many different meanings, and is too easily equivocated as Liddle & KeithS do.
No, it doesn't. It has one very precise meaning, although it can be stated in several different ways. All these statements, however, are equivalent. What is NOT equivalent, is the word "disorder" in the sentence": "entropy is disorder"; and the word "disorder" in the sentence "my house is in a state of disorder". The equivocation, though I am sure not deliberate, is Granville's, not ours. A chaotic system, like a tornado, has lower entropy than still air. As a result, it is able to do work such as reduce towns to rubble and elevate large objects into trees, where they in turn can do further work when they fall out again. People are also low-entropy systems, which means that they can also do work, including tidying up houses, and clearing away the rubble after a tornado. It is perfectly possible for a system to include areas of local decreases in entropy, such as people, and tornadoes - what would be a violation of the 2nd Law would be if these did not result from some process that involves an overall increase in entropy - which they do. Tornadoes form at the cost of increased entropy - reduced temperature differential between the Gulf of Mexico and the Canada. People form at the cost of increased entropy in the food they consume, which themselves are local entropy decrease gained by virtue of the steadily increasing entropy in the sun.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 3, 2013
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Also from the other thread:
Notice that his rejection of the compensation argument implies that plants violate the second law by using sunlight to grow. Thus the cornstalks shooting up in my home state of Indiana are cosmic scofflaws, according to Granville’s view. If he’s right, then we’re surrounded by violations of the second law. Now do you begin to see why scientists find Granville’s position ridiculous?
Granville rejects the compensation argument without realizing that he thereby implicates plants as second lawbreakers. Is there anyone here who thinks this is good science and wants to defend it? Do you think we are surrounded by plants, all busily violating the second law as they photosynthesize? The compensation argument is perfectly valid, as any plant will tell you.keiths
July 3, 2013
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A comment on the compensation argument from the other thread:
For anyone who still doesn’t get it, here is an explanation of Granville’s biggest error. The compensation argument says that entropy can decrease in a system as long as there is a sufficiently large net export of entropy from the system. Granville misinterpets the compensation argument as saying that anything, no matter how improbable, can happen in a system as long as the above criterion is met. This is obviously wrong, so Granville concludes that the compensation argument is invalid. In reality, only his interpretation of the compensation argument is invalid. The compensation argument itself is perfectly valid. The compensation argument shows that evolution doesn’t violate the second law. It does not say whether evolution happened; that is a different argument. Granville confuses the two issues because of his misunderstanding of the compensation argument. Since the second law isn’t violated, it has no further relevance. Granville is skeptical of evolution, but his skepticism has nothing to do with the second law. He is just like every other IDer and creationist: an evolution skeptic. You can see why this is a huge disappointment to him. Imagine if he had actually succeeded in showing that evolution violated a fundamental law of nature!
keiths
July 3, 2013
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