Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Where is the difference here?

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Since my Cornell conference contribution has generated dozens of critical comments on another thread, I feel compelled to respond. I hope this is the last time I ever have to talk about this topic, I’m really tired of it.

Here are two scenarios:

1. A tornado hits a town, turning houses and cars into rubble. Then, another tornado hits, and turns the rubble back into houses and cars.

2. The atoms on a barren planet spontaneously rearrange themselves, with the help of solar energy and under the direction of four unintelligent forces of physics alone, into humans, cars, high-speed computers, libraries full of science texts and encyclopedias, TV sets, airplanes and spaceships. Then, the sun explodes into a supernova, and, with the help of solar energy, all of these things turn back into dust.

It is almost universally agreed in the scientific community that the second stage (but not the first) of scenario 1 would violate the second law of thermodynamics, at least the more general statements of this law (eg, “In an isolated system, the direction of spontaneous change is from order to disorder” see footnote 4 in my paper). It is also almost universally agreed that the first stage of scenario 2 does not violate the second law. (Of course, everyone agrees that there is no conflict in the second stage.) Why, what is the difference here?

Every general physics book which discusses evolution and the second law argues that the first stage of scenario 2 does not violate the second law because the Earth is an open system, and entropy can decrease in an open system as long as the decrease is compensated by increases outside the Earth. I gave several examples of this argument in section 1, if you can find a single general physics text anywhere which makes a different argument in claiming that evolution does not violate the second law, let me know which one.

Well, this same compensation argument can equally well be used to argue that the second tornado in scenario 1 does not violate the second law: the Earth is an open system, tornados receive their energy from the sun, any decrease in entropy due to a tornado that turns rubble into houses and cars is easily compensated by increases outside the Earth. It is difficult to define or measure entropy in scenario 2, but it is equally difficult in scenario 1.

I’ll save you the trouble: there is only one reason why nearly everyone agrees that the second law is violated in scenario 1 and not scenario 2: because there is a widely believed theory as to how the evolution of life and of human intelligence happened, while there is no widely believed theory as to how a tornado could turn rubble into houses and cars. There is no other argument which can be made as to why the second law is not violated in scenario 2, that could not equally well be applied to argue that it is not violated in scenario 1 either.

Well, in this paper, and every other piece I have written on this topic, including my new Bio-Complexity paper , and the video below, I have acknowledged that, if you really can explain scenario 2, then it does not violate the basic principle behind the second law. In my conclusions in the Cornell contribution, I wrote:

Of course, one can still argue that the spectacular increase in order seen on Earth is consistent with the underlying principle behind the second law, because what has happened here is not really extremely improbable. One can still argue that once upon a time…a collection of atoms formed by pure chance that was able to duplicate itself, and these complex collections of atoms were able to pass their complex structures on to their descendents generation after generation, even correcting errors. One can still argue that, after a long time, the accumulation of genetic accidents resulted in greater and greater information content in the DNA of these more and more complex collections of atoms, and eventually something called “intelligence” allowed some of these collections of atoms to design cars and trucks and spaceships and nuclear power plants. One can still argue that it only seems extremely improbable, but really isn’t, that under the right conditions, the influx of stellar energy into a planet could cause atoms to rearrange themselves into computers and laser printers and the Internet.

Of course, if you can come up with a nice theory on how tornados could turn rubble into houses and cars, you can argue that the second law is not violated in scenario 1 either.

Elizabeth and KeithS, you are welcome to go back into your complaints about what an idiot Sewell is to think that dust spontaneously turning into computers and the Internet might violate “the basic principle behind the second law,” and how this bad paper shows that all of the Cornell contributions were bad, but please first give me another reason, other than the one I acknowledged, why there is a conflict with the second law (or at least the fundamental principle behind the second law) in scenario 1 and not in scenario 2? (Or perhaps you suddenly now don’t see any conflict with the second law in scenario 1 either, that is an acceptable answer, but now you are in conflict with the scientific consensus!)

And if you can’t think of another reason, what in my paper do you disagree with, it seems we are in complete agreement!!

[youtube 259r-iDckjQ]

Comments
@324: Says Mr. “I care about respect and manners”.
You can dish it out, but you can't take it.cantor
July 8, 2013
July
07
Jul
8
08
2013
11:27 AM
11
11
27
AM
PDT
I'll indulge cantor, though I don't have any math training or expertise beyond school.
If I were to randomly select a group of 75 different people from a roomful of 200 men and 100 women, what is the probability that the selected group would contain exactly 25 women?
I am assuming you do it sequentially, so in the first selection event you have a 0.67 probability of finding a man and a .33 probability of finding a woman. Each subsequent selection will be affected depending on whether a man or woman is selected in the previous selection event. If the first selection was a man. The second selection probabilities are 199/299 andfor a woman 100/299 and so on. Now, what's the relevance?Alan Fox
July 8, 2013
July
07
Jul
8
08
2013
11:25 AM
11
11
25
AM
PDT
Very well then. Whatever 2nd law it is that makes your answer correct, “I would therefore agree that there is no reason to invoke that 2nd Law as a reason why life could not have occurred spontaneously”.
Well, I don't quite understand your reasoning, but I'm glad we agree. I was referring to the 2nd Law of thermodynamics. I assumed you were too.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 8, 2013
July
07
Jul
8
08
2013
11:16 AM
11
11
16
AM
PDT
cantor,
Participation is voluntary. If you’re not interested or (more likely, don’t have a clue), then get lost.
Says Mr. "I care about respect and manners". :)keiths
July 8, 2013
July
07
Jul
8
08
2013
11:09 AM
11
11
09
AM
PDT
EBL @ 321 wrote: No
Very well then. Whatever 2nd law it is that makes your answer correct, "I would therefore agree that there is no reason to invoke that 2nd Law as a reason why life could not have occurred spontaneously".cantor
July 8, 2013
July
07
Jul
8
08
2013
11:06 AM
11
11
06
AM
PDT
KS@300: You’re asking people to jump through hoops for you
Participation is voluntary. If you're not interested or (more likely, don't have a clue), then get lost.cantor
July 8, 2013
July
07
Jul
8
08
2013
11:02 AM
11
11
02
AM
PDT
cantor:
I have to ask you a question, and if you answer it, I will answer yours. I have a hermetically sealed vial containing all, and only, the chemical elements (in sufficient quantity) to form a living amoeba. I put that vial out in the sun at 11am and sit watching while I sip my iced tea. Yes or No (I don’t need a long explanation, just yes or no): Is it valid to invoke the 2nd Law as a reason why a living amoeba will not form spontaneously in that sealed vial sometime before noon?
No.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 8, 2013
July
07
Jul
8
08
2013
10:52 AM
10
10
52
AM
PDT
PaV
This is equivalent to the same argument made against Dembski’s CSI, but in a slightly different form. When it comes to Dembski, the Darwinists say: “What’s the probability distribution involved? It’s not a ‘uniform probability distribution.’” And here, it’s: “Well what is mechanism at work which brings about these probabilities?”
You are absolutely right: it is the same counterargument, because Granville's argument is really a restatement of Dembski's (and has nothing to do with the 2nd Law!)
In my view, this is but feigned ignorance. Isn’t that what IDists are accused of, and ‘argument from ignorance’? Isn’t that what you’re holding onto here?
Nobody on the "evolution" side is saying: "we don't know what the likelihood is, therefore it is likely". All we are saying is that we don't know what the likelihood is, but we know that many of the mechanisms proposed have been tested, therefore we cannot infer design. It is Dembski et al who are saying "we do know what the likelihood is, and it is too small to be plausible, therefore we can infer design. Evolutionary theory does not rule out Design. ID rules it in. The positions are not symmetrical.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 8, 2013
July
07
Jul
8
08
2013
10:51 AM
10
10
51
AM
PDT
EBL @ 308 wrote: Well, stipulate away, then :) I’m all ears.
I have to ask you a question, and if you answer it, I will answer yours. I have a hermetically sealed vial containing all, and only, the chemical elements (in sufficient quantity) to form a living amoeba. I put that vial out in the sun at 11am and sit watching while I sip my iced tea. Yes or No (I don't need a long explanation, just yes or no): Is it valid to invoke the 2nd Law as a reason why a living amoeba will not form spontaneously in that sealed vial sometime before noon?cantor
July 8, 2013
July
07
Jul
8
08
2013
10:47 AM
10
10
47
AM
PDT
Kairosfocus: please stop berating me for one moment and listen to what I am asking you here. You say:
EL: that’s a threadbare excuse. The case of 500H coins WAS one in which the probabilities are indeed calculable,
YES, indeed they are
and the underlying point, from sampling theory is quite evident. It is the sampling challenge that dominates the result and is decisive. You know or should know full well that a blind sample of moderate scope of a large domain of possibilities will reflect the bulk patterns of the distribution.
Exactly. I do not, and never have, disputed this. Clearly if you know the distribution of your expected values under a specific hypothesis (e.g.fair coins, fairly tossed) you can rule out that hypothesis as the explanation for your observation if what you observe has extremely low predicted frequency under that null. What I keep asking you, and you seem not to read my posts far enough to take this in, because you keep addresing a different point is: How do you compute the expected frequency distribution under an unknown null? Or, if you prefer this equivalent question: How can you tell the probability of a pattern from the pattern alone?Elizabeth B Liddle
July 8, 2013
July
07
Jul
8
08
2013
10:40 AM
10
10
40
AM
PDT
Elizabeth: Until you can show me what your probabilities are the probabilities of, under what conditions I cannot evaluate your argument. This is equivalent to the same argument made against Dembski's CSI, but in a slightly different form. When it comes to Dembski, the Darwinists say: "What's the probability distribution involved? It's not a 'uniform probability distribution.'" And here, it's: "Well what is mechanism at work which brings about these probabilities?" In my view, this is but feigned ignorance. Isn't that what IDists are accused of, and 'argument from ignorance'? Isn't that what you're holding onto here?PaV
July 8, 2013
July
07
Jul
8
08
2013
10:30 AM
10
10
30
AM
PDT
EL: that's a threadbare excuse. The case of 500H coins WAS one in which the probabilities are indeed calculable, and the underlying point, from sampling theory is quite evident. It is the sampling challenge that dominates the result and is decisive. You know or should know full well that a blind sample of moderate scope of a large domain of possibilities will reflect the bulk patterns of the distribution. I used the darts and charts example to illustrate that. YOU STILL FOUND EXCUSES TO DUCK, DODGE AND DIVERT. You thus convinced me that you are not being reasonable, but pushing an ideology; on top of hosting, denying then defending slander. The basic point is, that it is well known that diffusion type processes access a large array of possible states in no particular order so once there is sufficient freedom for relevant particles in an initially relatively orderly pattern to interact through random walks, the difference in statistical weight of clustered vs scattered states pushes the system strongly to the scattered states. If you bothered to read the already linked discussions you would know why. That is the essential message of the second law, and it is why the same patterns are relevant to open systems, indeed in such systems, absent coupling of inputs to work producing energy conversion devices, the injection of energy will tend to increase the number of ways that mass and energy can be arranged at micro level, sharply. Thus, increasing entropy. The earth is such an importer of energy, and there is a tendency for entropy of systems to rise as a result. When work producing energy conversion devices produce constructive work issuing in FSCO/I [notice, organisation not mere order], invariably there is in our observation a plan, and a system to give effect to it -- no surprise FSCO/I rich configs are very rare in spaces of possible configs. Often such systems themselves exhibit FSCO/I, and there is no good reason to imagine that such could spontaneously arise from diffusion and the like. As has been pointed out and explained several times, no need to do so again. But on track record, no evidence that does not sit well with your ideology will ever find your approval (one can always toss up a selectively hyperspeptical objection), so the point here is to note that ideology driven attitude problem and alert the onlooker to it. KF PS: Above you got the matter exactly the wrong way around. It is on fundamentally thermodynamics considerations that it was recognised that it passed empirical plausibility for FSCO/I to arise by spontaneous action of diffusion and related forces, think about a Welcome to Wales sign arising spontaneously from an avalanche, logically possible but so overwhelmed by the clusters of other possibilities that this is a practical impossibility, an unobservable outcome on the gamut of our solar system. Since there is a link to the more broadly familiar information concepts, this came later, after the 1984 TMLO.kairosfocus
July 8, 2013
July
07
Jul
8
08
2013
10:27 AM
10
10
27
AM
PDT
Isn't there a simple proof that the 2nd LoT is violated in the case of organic beings? Here's my simple proof: "Remember, man, that thou art dust, and unto dust you shall return." Think through the logic if you like.PaV
July 8, 2013
July
07
Jul
8
08
2013
09:49 AM
9
09
49
AM
PDT
Would you therefore agree that there is no reason to invoke the 2nd Law as a reason why life couldn not have occurred spontaneously?
LoL! That premise has more problems than just the 2nd law. And why is it that materialists cannot produce the probabilities for their position? Why is it up to us? Does anyone else see the problem with that?Joe
July 8, 2013
July
07
Jul
8
08
2013
07:45 AM
7
07
45
AM
PDT
KF: Until you can show me what your probabilities are the probabilities of, under what conditions I cannot evaluate your argument. Many arrangements that are improbable under one set of conditions are highly probable under another set. A human being moving things around is one is one, but not the only one. And a human being increases in entropy as a result of doing the moving.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 8, 2013
July
07
Jul
8
08
2013
07:40 AM
7
07
40
AM
PDT
Cantor:
Not without further stipulation.
Well, stipulate away, then :) I'm all ears.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 8, 2013
July
07
Jul
8
08
2013
07:32 AM
7
07
32
AM
PDT
EL, wrong again. Lucky noise issuing in FSCO/I is not consistent with the overwhelming tide of spontaneity in microscopic events. Forces of diffusion and the like will reliably not spontaneously create order once we are above the level of high probability of fluctuations, much less complex functionally specific organisation. Fr essentially the same reasons why reliably tossing 500 coins will not on the gamut of our solar system, create a case with 500 H. Similarly, on dropping 100 darts scattered across a bell-chart with the peak 0.4 m high and the width reasonably in scale, we will with practical certainty not see a dart-hit between 5 and 6 SD away from the mean, another example that is clear but which you refuse to acknowledge the force of. You are refusing to acknowledge that which is well warranted, as it does not fit your ideological agenda. In physical terms, mere logical possibility is not enough, there must be sufficient of resources and opportunities that we have a reasonable expectation to observe a stochastic outcome. But by the nature of the case for FSCO/I that is simply not present on the gamut of our solar system or the observed cosmos. And this is the very same statistical basis for the second law. KFkairosfocus
July 8, 2013
July
07
Jul
8
08
2013
07:29 AM
7
07
29
AM
PDT
So I take it you would agree that massive drops in entropy can occur spontaneously without the 2nd Law being violated?
Of course I would. Did I post something in this thread to cause you to infer otherwise?
Would you therefore agree that there is no reason to invoke the 2nd Law as a reason why life couldn not have occurred spontaneously?
Not without further stipulation.cantor
July 8, 2013
July
07
Jul
8
08
2013
06:28 AM
6
06
28
AM
PDT
KF:
Are you aware that tornadoes are examples of order, not complex functionally specific organisation?
I am aware that they are examples of spontaneously generated low entropy systems. Yet the 2nd Law holds; this is because low entropy systems can be generated spontaneously in local systems, according to the 2nd Law, if work is done on it by its surroundings, which, as a result increase in entropy "in compensation", as it were. Therefore it is simply not true to say that life cannot emerge spontaneously because life is a low entropy system that is forbidden under the 2nd Law. So Granville's argument is incorrect. If his point is that "complex specified information" cannot arise spontaneously, as you and Dembski claim, then fine, but the 2nd Law says nothing about whether "complex specified information" can arise spontaneously. Not surprisingly, as it has proved impossible to define" complex specified information" in such a way that it is computable. I know you disagree, but you have not, at any rate to my satisfaction, demonstrated how you compute the probability under the null of any relevant postulated mechanism.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 8, 2013
July
07
Jul
8
08
2013
01:51 AM
1
01
51
AM
PDT
F/N: Let me try a diagram using textual features: Heat transfer in Isol system: || A (at T_a) --> d'Q --> B (at T_b) || dS >/= (-d'Q/T_a) + (+d'Q/T_b), Lex 2, Th Heat engine, leaving off the isolation of the whole: A --> d'Q_a --> B' =====> D (shaft work) Where also, B' --> d'Q_b --> C, heat disposal to a heat sink Where of course the sum of heat inflows d'Q_a will equal the sum of rise in internal energy of B dU_b, work done on D, dW, and heat transferred onwards to C, d'Q_b. The pivotal questions are, the performance of constructive work by dW, the possibility that this results in FSCO/I, the possibility that B itself shows FSCO/I enabling it to couple energy and do shaft work, and the suggested ideas that d'Q's can spontaneously lead to shaft work constructing FSCO/I as an informational free lunch. By overwhelming statistical weights of accessible microstates consistent with the gross flows outlined, this is not credibly observable on the gamut of our solar system or the observed cosmos. There is but one empirically, reliably observed source for FSCO/I, design. The analysis on statistical weights of microstates and random forces such as diffusion and the like, shows why. And, this is the case that is being diverted from through red herrings and strawmen. Multiplied by attempts at Alinskyite ridicule, rather than sober assessment of the merits. KFkairosfocus
July 8, 2013
July
07
Jul
8
08
2013
01:46 AM
1
01
46
AM
PDT
Dr Liddle: I need to speak for record in correction. At this stage, not in expectation that you have the slightest inclination to do better than you have done with a sustained case of outright slander, but as a marker for record and at least the opportunity for the 1,800 daily onlookers now and future to see for themselves. In other words, I will not let your distortions and distractions stand without a testimony of correction. Are you aware that tornadoes are examples of order, not complex functionally specific organisation? Namely, that they, like hurricanes are essentially vortices formed by fluid dynamics [in the general context of convection], thus by necessity similar to crystalisation? Thus, that first, you are trying to substitute accounting for order tracing to mechanical necessity, for highly contingent complex functional organisation? In short, again, you are misunderstanding and misrepresenting the design inference explanatory filter for the umpteenth time despite repeated corrections. Next, you are on a red herring tangent regarding the relevant thermodynamics. Had you seriously read my App 1 my always linked note, or the FYI-FTR that clips from it, you would observe that it has been openly and specifically discussed from years ago, how Clausius' context for deriving a quantification of the second law starts with two subsystems transferring a quantity of heat d'Q, thus A and B , the latter at lower temp, suffer a reduction and a gain in entropy, the latter equaling or exceeding the former. Algebraically, this is because d'Q/T_B is greater than the similar ratio for A, as T_B is lower. So, first, the insinuation you are hinting at above, that we are denying that local entropy reductions occur is a strawman fallacy. (Do I need to keep on talking about farragoes of red herrings and strawmen? do you remember that you operate an entire objecting blog under the theme that you expect others to consider how THEY may be in error? Is not the sauce you intend for the Gander not also sauce suitable for the Goose? Or, is all of this in the end, an exercise of -- pardon bluntness -- arrogance by pontification on superficiality on your part? What the author of Alcibiades has Socrates describe as the ignorance that has conceit of knowledge? Pardon if you find such offensive, but first consider the impact of the slander you have harboured then denied then tried to justify then try to ignore, for months, in terms of an index of how you have been operating. And then consider the matters on their actual merits not agenda serving red herrings and strawmen. Remember, you have donned the lab coat as a champion of evolutionary materialist orthodoxy, so you bear a degree of responsibility that an ordinary commenter does not.) It seems I will need to use bold block capitals, to get your attention to a pivotal point. FYI, WHAT IS BEING HIGHLIGHTED IS THE UNDERLYING PHYSICAL STATISTICAL MICROSCOPIC PHENOMENA THAT LEAD TO THE RESULT AND THEIR IMPLICATIONS FOR THE IMPLAUSIBILITY OF FORCES OF DIFFUSION OR THE LIKE PHENOMENA CARRYING OUT THE CONSTRUCTIVE WORK LEADING TO FSCO/I. That is, entropy is a metric of a state-linked property of bodies and systems, effectively a measure of the number of ways that mass and energy at relevant micro level may be arranged, subject to the gross scale (macro or lab) constraints acting, as say Boltzmann's S = k* log W, shows directly, W being number of ways and k a constant with appropriate units and scale. S, then, is a measure, in information terms of the average missing information on the microstate given the macro state. Or, it can be viewed as a metric based on the number of unanswered yes/no questions to specify the micro given the macro. As Jaynes, Robertson, Brillouin and others have pointed out, had there been a knowledge of the micro state, work could be extracted. Szilard's explanation of Maxwell's demon is a good example on this. One consequence of this, is that under circumstances where energy flows from A to B, B naturally tends to dump some of the energy into modes where the number of ways that energy and mass at micro level may be arranged at micro level rises. Its entropy strongly tends to rise. Now, under certain circumstances, heat (energy moving by way of radiation, conduction, convection, per temp difference . . . itself in many respects and cases by means of a kind of diffusion) flows may be coupled to B, and used to perform ordered forced motion on D, that is shaft work. But this comes at a price, sufficient waste heat is transferred to a heat sink C, that the entropy sums add up appropriately. (This, too was discussed.) Shaft work, properly directed, is a common means of performing constructive work issuing in FSCO/I, e.g. typing this comment in ASCII coded English. Such is an instance of the universal, habitual experience of FSCO/I being observed to come from design. And of course a tornado or hurricane, or just the wind system, are examples of naturally occurring heat engines driven by small to planetary scale convection currents. (But these things do not directly perform constructive work leading to creation of FSCO/I. For that to happen, something like a windmill needs to be built and its resulting shaft work needs to be intelligently directed, in principle it could build a jumbo jet from parts.) Now, the problem GS addressed is clearly that it is being improperly suggested in the name of thermodynamics allows, that diffusion and similar dispersive forces can reasonably be expected, can be feasibly observed, to spontaneously perform FSCO/I creating constructive work. Such is comparable, in Shapiro's terms, to expecting a cluster of wind, tornados, earthquakes and the like to spontaneously play a golf ball through an 18 hole course. In Hoyle's terms, it is like expecting to be able to see a tornado spontaneously building a jumbo jet out of spare parts in a junkyard. Let me put GS in his own words, from some years ago, on second thoughts on the second law:
. . . The second law is all about probability, it uses probability at the microscopic level to predict macroscopic change: the reason carbon distributes itself more and more uniformly in an insulated solid is, that is what the laws of probability predict when DIFFUSION alone is operative. The reason natural forces may turn a spaceship, or a TV set, or a computer into a pile of rubble but not vice-versa is also probability: of all the possible arrangements atoms could take, only a very small percentage could fly to the moon and back, or receive pictures and sound from the other side of the Earth, or add, subtract, multiply and divide real numbers with high accuracy. The second law of thermodynamics is the reason that computers will degenerate into scrap metal over time, and, in the absence of intelligence, the reverse process will not occur; and it is also the reason that animals, when they die, decay into simple organic and inorganic compounds, and, in the absence of intelligence, the reverse process will not occur. The discovery that life on Earth developed through evolutionary "steps," coupled with the observation that mutations and natural selection -- like other natural forces -- can cause (minor) change, is widely accepted in the scientific world as proof that natural selection -- alone among all natural forces -- can create order out of disorder, and even design human brains, with human consciousness. Only the layman seems to see the problem with this logic. In a recent Mathematical Intelligencer article ["A Mathematician's View of Evolution," The Mathematical Intelligencer 22, number 4, 5-7, 2000] I asserted that the idea that the four fundamental forces of physics alone could rearrange the fundamental particles of Nature into spaceships, nuclear power plants, and computers, connected to laser printers, CRTs, keyboards and the Internet, appears to violate the second law of thermodynamics in a spectacular way.1 . . . . What happens in a[n isolated] system depends on the initial conditions; what happens in an open system depends on the boundary conditions as well. As I wrote in "Can ANYTHING Happen in an Open System?", "order can increase in an open system, not because the laws of probability are suspended when the door is open, but simply because order may walk in through the door.... If we found evidence that DNA, auto parts, computer chips, and books entered through the Earth's atmosphere at some time in the past, then perhaps the appearance of humans, cars, computers, and encyclopedias on a previously barren planet could be explained without postulating a violation of the second law here . . . But if all we see entering is radiation and meteorite fragments, it seems clear that what is entering through the boundary cannot explain the increase in order observed here." Evolution is a movie running backward, that is what makes it special. THE EVOLUTIONIST, therefore, cannot avoid the question of probability by saying that anything can happen in an open system, he is finally forced to argue that it only seems extremely improbable, but really isn't, that atoms would rearrange themselves into spaceships and computers and TV sets . . . [NB: Emphases added. I have also substituted in isolated system terminology as GS uses a different terminology.]
That is GS' essential case, and he is right. Confronted with a box of 500 fair coins all H, there was a huge argument in the teeth of blatant and simply shown evidence of overwhelming improbability of such occurring by blind chance tossing on the gamut of our solar system, i.e. empirically unobservable by blind chance on that gamut, where there is also a reasonable possibility that such may occur by choice. So choice is a practically certain explanation. In red herring and strawman tactic distraction, much was made for hundreds of posts, over how it is logically possible for 500 H to occur so we should not be surprised to see it by chance just like any other single tossed pattern. Rubbish, by overwhelming improbability, the dominant cluster of something near 50-50 H/T in no particular order will reliably be observed on tossing fair coins, to the point of practical certainty. Just so, it is practically certain that diffusion and the like will disperse and disorder rather than carry out constructive work issuing in FSCO/I, in Darwin's warm little pond or the like. What is driving this refusal to see the obvious, is that to accept the verdict of the overwhelming statistical weight of disordered patterns driven by diffusion etc, would open a door you and others demand to keep bolted, locked, barred and padlocked at any cost: you absolutely refuse to entertain the possibility that FSCO/I in the living cell could have originated by intelligently directed choice contingency, i.e. design. So any and every argument that to the eye of the Darwinist faithful or those able to be influenced by such, is trotted out, dressed up in a lab coat and presented with an air of confidence. Red herrings, led away to strawmen soaked in subtle or blatant ad hominems and ignited to poison, polarise, cloud and confuse the atmosphere. All in defence of mind closing, stubbornly insisted on evolutionary materialist a prioris that in the end are demanding under the false cover of a lab coat, that we accept the explanation that a jumbo jet has been formed by a tornado in a junkyard to the alternative that the jet is an obvious constructed artifact best explained on intelligently directed construction. Or, if you will, since this post could conceivably be produced by noise on the internet tracing to diffusion and similar forces, we must lock and bar the door to the explanation that it is the product of art, evidenced by the reliable signature of art, FSCO/I. In the end, Johnson's rebuke originally given to Lewontin, is apt:
For scientific materialists the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter. [[Emphasis original] We might more accurately term them "materialists employing science." And if materialism is true, then some materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction, regardless of the evidence. That theory will necessarily be at least roughly like neo-Darwinism, in that it will have to involve some combination of random changes and law-like processes capable of producing complicated organisms that (in Dawkins’ words) "give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose." . . . . The debate about creation and evolution is not deadlocked . . . Biblical literalism is not the issue. The issue is whether materialism and rationality are the same thing. Darwinism is based on an a priori commitment to materialism, not on a philosophically neutral assessment of the evidence. Separate the philosophy from the science, and the proud tower collapses. [[Emphasis added.] [[The Unraveling of Scientific Materialism, First Things, 77 (Nov. 1997), pp. 22 – 25.]
KFkairosfocus
July 8, 2013
July
07
Jul
8
08
2013
01:19 AM
1
01
19
AM
PDT
Lizzie,
Will have to think about it. I’m having a wisdom tooth out later this week, so it’ll be a great thing to try to figure out while it’s happening! I always like to have a working-memory demanding task to do while I’m at the dentist!
Sorry about your tooth. I don't want to deprive you of a welcome extraction distraction, so I won't say too much, but there is an easier way of solving cantor's problem that doesn't require coming up with the distribution.keiths
July 7, 2013
July
07
Jul
7
07
2013
11:50 PM
11
11
50
PM
PDT
It depends on the mass, the temperature, the temperature gradient, the pressure, the pressure gradient, the gravitational potential, etc etc etc of the still air and the tornado you are comparing.
yes indeed, but as I do not know of any tornado that has smaller temperature or pressure gradients than still air (how would such a thing be a tornado!), then I think it is a degree of understatement to say that:
In general I would think that a tornado has less entropy than the still air that existed minutes earlier at the same location.
! And yes,
Is that what you were asking?
it was.
If so, I have no problem with that.
Excellent. So we agree that, given that tornadoes consist of systematically spirally rising moving air with steep pressure and temperature gradients (and I don't know of any that don't), that tornadoes have lower entropy than the still air that they formed from. And we can also, I think, agree that as a result of that low entropy, they can do a spectacular amount of work on a town, even though it may not be work we want doing - elevate massive objects by hundreds of feet, for instance. So a large tornado represents a massive and spontaneous drop in entropy of the air of which it is composed. It is a chaotic system of far reduced entropy as compared to the non-chaotic, higher entropy still air that it earlier was. (Mung will appreciate this part.) And yet I don't think that you would argue that tornadoes require a Designer in order that the 2nd Law be not violated. So I take it you would agree that massive drops in entropy can occur spontaneously without the 2nd Law being violated? Would you therefore agree that there is no reason to invoke the 2nd Law as a reason why life couldn not have occurred spontaneously? Given that the Earth is open to the sun on one side at all times, thus experiencing both temporal and spatial temperature gradients that can cause low entropy systems to develop regularly on its surface?Elizabeth B Liddle
July 7, 2013
July
07
Jul
7
07
2013
11:37 PM
11
11
37
PM
PDT
cantor:
Consider the following: If I were to randomly select a group of 75 different people from a roomful of 200 men and 100 women, what is the probability that the selected group would contain exactly 25 women? Question: How many people contributing to this thread know how to do this computation using only the knowledge currently in your head? No Googling, no phone-a-friend, no ask-the-audience, no leafing through textbooks, etc.
I'll have a go, though I might get it wrong, especially as it's a limited pool so you have to take into account selection-without replacement, so I need the hypergeometric distribution rather than the binomial distribution. Which I can't remember. OK. Will have to think about it. I'm having a wisdom tooth out later this week, so it'll be a great thing to try to figure out while it's happening! I always like to have a working-memory demanding task to do while I'm at the dentist! Thanks!Elizabeth B Liddle
July 7, 2013
July
07
Jul
7
07
2013
11:12 PM
11
11
12
PM
PDT
Lizzie, to Mung:
I’m glad you like it, Mung. So would you like to apply it to my question as to whether a chaotic system like a tornado has more or less order-as-in-entropy than still air?
Yes, Mung, please give us your thoughts on tornadoes and entropy.keiths
July 7, 2013
July
07
Jul
7
07
2013
10:19 PM
10
10
19
PM
PDT
Mung:
Elizabeth Liddle: You have confused “order” as in low entropy with “order” as in “not chaos”. El oh El There’s one for the ages.
I'm glad you like it, Mung. So would you like to apply it to my question as to whether a chaotic system like a tornado has more or less order-as-in-entropy than still air?Elizabeth B Liddle
July 7, 2013
July
07
Jul
7
07
2013
10:16 PM
10
10
16
PM
PDT
keiths
Lizzie, I think Thomas2 may be thinking of the logical fallacy known as the “argument from incredulity“. Your argument about invisible pink unicorns isn’t an argument from incredulity, because you’re not saying “I don’t see how invisible pink unicorns could exist; therefore they don’t exist.” Rather, you’re saying “I see no evidence at all that invisible pink unicorns exist, so I have no reason to believe that they do.”
heh, I forgot it was a formal fallacy. Actually, I think it's fine to say the first as well - if we didn't do basic triage on batty ideas, we'd have no cognitive capacity to do anything useful! I should have said: I think arguments from incredulity are perfectly sensible, they just aren't very compelling, which is why people say that "extraordinary claims require extraodinary evidence". So to address Thomas2's point again: I agree that a healthy skepticism towards extraordinary claims is a good thing. But that's different from saying; therefore it's improbable, therefore it must violate the 2nd Law of thermodynamics!Elizabeth B Liddle
July 7, 2013
July
07
Jul
7
07
2013
10:14 PM
10
10
14
PM
PDT
cantor, You're asking people to jump through hoops for you, but you aren't even willing to explain why your request is relevant?
And by the way, have you forgotten? You’re supposed to stop commenting on my posts.
Says the guy who addressed a comment to me just a few hours ago. Make up your mind, cantor.keiths
July 7, 2013
July
07
Jul
7
07
2013
09:12 PM
9
09
12
PM
PDT
re: 294 Yeah, I thought that's what would happen. That's the last time you get the benefit of the doubt. And by the way, have you forgotten? You're supposed to stop commenting on my posts.cantor
July 7, 2013
July
07
Jul
7
07
2013
08:51 PM
8
08
51
PM
PDT
cantor, You didn't answer my question. What's the relevance? What does this have to do with Granville's paper, the second law, and evolution?keiths
July 7, 2013
July
07
Jul
7
07
2013
08:34 PM
8
08
34
PM
PDT
1 2 3 4 5 13

Leave a Reply