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Where is the difference here?

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Since my Cornell conference contribution has generated dozens of critical comments on another thread, I feel compelled to respond. I hope this is the last time I ever have to talk about this topic, I’m really tired of it.

Here are two scenarios:

1. A tornado hits a town, turning houses and cars into rubble. Then, another tornado hits, and turns the rubble back into houses and cars.

2. The atoms on a barren planet spontaneously rearrange themselves, with the help of solar energy and under the direction of four unintelligent forces of physics alone, into humans, cars, high-speed computers, libraries full of science texts and encyclopedias, TV sets, airplanes and spaceships. Then, the sun explodes into a supernova, and, with the help of solar energy, all of these things turn back into dust.

It is almost universally agreed in the scientific community that the second stage (but not the first) of scenario 1 would violate the second law of thermodynamics, at least the more general statements of this law (eg, “In an isolated system, the direction of spontaneous change is from order to disorder” see footnote 4 in my paper). It is also almost universally agreed that the first stage of scenario 2 does not violate the second law. (Of course, everyone agrees that there is no conflict in the second stage.) Why, what is the difference here?

Every general physics book which discusses evolution and the second law argues that the first stage of scenario 2 does not violate the second law because the Earth is an open system, and entropy can decrease in an open system as long as the decrease is compensated by increases outside the Earth. I gave several examples of this argument in section 1, if you can find a single general physics text anywhere which makes a different argument in claiming that evolution does not violate the second law, let me know which one.

Well, this same compensation argument can equally well be used to argue that the second tornado in scenario 1 does not violate the second law: the Earth is an open system, tornados receive their energy from the sun, any decrease in entropy due to a tornado that turns rubble into houses and cars is easily compensated by increases outside the Earth. It is difficult to define or measure entropy in scenario 2, but it is equally difficult in scenario 1.

I’ll save you the trouble: there is only one reason why nearly everyone agrees that the second law is violated in scenario 1 and not scenario 2: because there is a widely believed theory as to how the evolution of life and of human intelligence happened, while there is no widely believed theory as to how a tornado could turn rubble into houses and cars. There is no other argument which can be made as to why the second law is not violated in scenario 2, that could not equally well be applied to argue that it is not violated in scenario 1 either.

Well, in this paper, and every other piece I have written on this topic, including my new Bio-Complexity paper , and the video below, I have acknowledged that, if you really can explain scenario 2, then it does not violate the basic principle behind the second law. In my conclusions in the Cornell contribution, I wrote:

Of course, one can still argue that the spectacular increase in order seen on Earth is consistent with the underlying principle behind the second law, because what has happened here is not really extremely improbable. One can still argue that once upon a time…a collection of atoms formed by pure chance that was able to duplicate itself, and these complex collections of atoms were able to pass their complex structures on to their descendents generation after generation, even correcting errors. One can still argue that, after a long time, the accumulation of genetic accidents resulted in greater and greater information content in the DNA of these more and more complex collections of atoms, and eventually something called “intelligence” allowed some of these collections of atoms to design cars and trucks and spaceships and nuclear power plants. One can still argue that it only seems extremely improbable, but really isn’t, that under the right conditions, the influx of stellar energy into a planet could cause atoms to rearrange themselves into computers and laser printers and the Internet.

Of course, if you can come up with a nice theory on how tornados could turn rubble into houses and cars, you can argue that the second law is not violated in scenario 1 either.

Elizabeth and KeithS, you are welcome to go back into your complaints about what an idiot Sewell is to think that dust spontaneously turning into computers and the Internet might violate “the basic principle behind the second law,” and how this bad paper shows that all of the Cornell contributions were bad, but please first give me another reason, other than the one I acknowledged, why there is a conflict with the second law (or at least the fundamental principle behind the second law) in scenario 1 and not in scenario 2? (Or perhaps you suddenly now don’t see any conflict with the second law in scenario 1 either, that is an acceptable answer, but now you are in conflict with the scientific consensus!)

And if you can’t think of another reason, what in my paper do you disagree with, it seems we are in complete agreement!!

Comments
CS3@182: It is much more difficult to imagine spaceships and iPhones as products of those forces.
UNLESS, of course, all the information necessary for such an outcome was already encoded somehow in an appropriate form in the early barren planet. But that, of course, does not solve the problem; it just pushes the problem backward to an earlier time.cantor
July 6, 2013
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How about trying to address my actual position
Because your "actual position" is irrelevant to the question I asked. I am pursuing a line of reasoning and am not interested in your strawman distractions.cantor
July 6, 2013
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How about trying to address my actual position, rather than the inane one you’d like to shoehorn me into?
Down boy. I am interested in the question I asked. If you are not, then don't answer it. Move along. These aren't the droids you're looking for.cantor
July 6, 2013
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cantor,
That would be option 3. ["it is impossible to make a definitive quantitative argument either way"]
Only if by 'definitive' you mean 'absolutely certain'. But that would be silly, because then there would be no "definitive quantitative arguments" in science at all. How about trying to address my actual position, rather than the inane one you'd like to shoehorn me into?keiths
July 6, 2013
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I don’t need to assume that they are.
You do if you want to choose option 2. But you chose option 3. So it's all good.cantor
July 6, 2013
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nothing is certain in science
That would be option 3.
when I argue that evolution doesn’t violate the second law...
The question was not asking about "evolution" violating the second law.cantor
July 6, 2013
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cantor,
If you don’t know for sure that the four fundamental forces are a complete list, then you can’t make a definitive argument that starts by assuming that they are.
I don't need to assume that they are. First, nothing is certain in science (or in life -- see my comments to DonaldM on this thread). Second, when I argue that evolution doesn't violate the second law, my argument doesn't depend on knowing how many fundamental forces there are or whether they are "blind". Why would it? The second law was formulated long before we knew about the strong and weak nuclear forces, so knowledge of them isn't necessary to make second law arguments, obviously. To argue that knitting doesn't violate the second law, I don't need to invoke the four fundamental forces or determine that they are "blind". Why should that be necessary in the case of evolution?keiths
July 6, 2013
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KF, You're on record claiming that the compensation argument is flawed. Are you aware that to deny the compensation argument is to deny the second law itself? How do you justify your position?keiths
July 6, 2013
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You’re oddly insistent.
So are you. And Lizzie is oddly evasive.cantor
July 6, 2013
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If I were answering your question, I would say that we don’t know for sure that the four fundamental forces are a complete list
That would be option 3. If you don't know for sure that the four fundamental forces are a complete list, then you can't make a definitive argument that starts by assuming that they are.
I don’t see any good reason to invoke teleology as part of the explanation for life’s appearance on Earth.
Teleology was not one of the options.cantor
July 6, 2013
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cantor, You're oddly insistent. Lizzie lives in the UK and is probably asleep right now. Instead of giving multiple-choice tests, why not just state your position, make an argument for it, and see how Lizzie responds? Why confine her to your predetermined set of options? If I were answering your question, I would say that we don't know for sure that the four fundamental forces are a complete list, but that I don't see any good reason to invoke teleology as part of the explanation for life's appearance on Earth.keiths
July 6, 2013
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I will re-post the question for your convenience: Multiple Choice. Please select the 1 of the 4 statements below that most closely represents your views: 1) the unguided purposeless action of the four known physical laws cannot be the sole explanation for how this planet was transformed from barren and lifeless to what we see today, because that would violate the 2nd law 2) the unguided purposeless action of the four known physical laws is the sole explanation for how this planet was transformed from barren and lifeless to what we see today, and that does not violate the 2nd law 3) it is impossible to make a definitive quantitative argument either way 4) I do not know if it is possible to make a definitive quantitative argument either waycantor
July 6, 2013
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Liddle@187 Cantor: I think it’s perfectly possible to tell whether a proposed explanation would violate the 2nd Law or not, and the evolutionary explanation doesn’t.
That wasn't the question. Would you please answer the question that was asked?cantor
July 6, 2013
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F/N: Predictably, the objectors have continued with talking points as usual, so I again draw attention to the FYI here and to Sewell here. In the latter, I would draw attention to this clip:
Note that (2) [a flow gradient expression] simply says that heat ?ows from hot to cold regions—because the laws of probability favor a more uniform distribution of heat energy . . . . From [an eqn that entails that in such a system, d'S >/= 0] (5) it follows that in an isolated, closed, system, where there is no heat ?ux through the boundary d'S >/= 0. Hence, in a closed system, entropy can never decrease. Since thermal entropy measures randomness (disorder) in the distribution of heat, its opposite (negative) can be referred to as ”thermal order”, and we can say that the thermal order can never increase in a closed system. Furthermore, there is really nothing special about ”thermal” entropy. We can define another entropy, and another order, in exactly the same way, to measure randomness in the distribution of any other substance that diffuses, for example, we can let U(x,y,z,t) represent the concentration of carbon diffusing in a solid (Q is just U now), and through an identical analysis show that the ”carbon order” thus defined cannot increase in a closed system. It is a well-known prediction of the second law that, in a closed system, every type of order is unstable and must eventually decrease, as everything tends toward more probable states . . .
Once the diffusion concept is introduced and made central to GS's argument, we are dealing with an entropy pattern and a classic case used in explaining the spontaneous tendency to disorder in systems and the rise of entropy as systems move to less constrained conditions, as the already linked FYI-FTR points out in 2(f) 15 - 16, and then further builds up through Yavorsky and Pinsky in point 4:
4] Yavorski and Pinski, in the textbook Physics, Vol I [MIR, USSR, 1974, pp. 279 ff.], summarise the key implication of the macro-state and micro-state view well: as we consider a simple model of diffusion, let us think of ten white and ten black balls in two rows in a container. There is of course but one way in which there are ten whites in the top row; the balls of any one colour being for our purposes identical. But on shuffling, there are 63,504 ways to arrange five each of black and white balls in the two rows, and 6-4 distributions may occur in two ways, each with 44,100 alternatives. [--> BTW, resemblance to the 500 coin example that objectors made such heavy weather of, is not coincidental, they were showing their unfamiliarity with or lack of understanding of the statistical thinking connected to thermodynamics . . . ] So, if we for the moment see the set of balls as circulating among the various different possible arrangements at random, and spending about the same time in each possible state on average, the time the system spends in any given state will be proportionate to the relative number of ways that state may be achieved. Immediately, we see that the system will gravitate towards the cluster of more evenly distributed states. In short, we have just seen that there is a natural trend of change at random, towards the more thermodynamically probable macrostates, i.e the ones with higher statistical weights. So “[b]y comparing the [thermodynamic] probabilities of two states of a thermodynamic system, we can establish at once the direction of the process that is [spontaneously] feasible in the given system. It will correspond to a transition from a less probable to a more probable state.” [p. 284.] This is in effect the statistical form of the 2nd law of thermodynamics. Thus, too, the behaviour of the Clausius isolated system above is readily understood: importing d’Q of random molecular energy so far increases the number of ways energy can be distributed at micro-scale in B, that the resulting rise in B’s entropy swamps the fall in A’s entropy. Moreover, given that FSCI-rich micro-arrangements are relatively rare in the set of possible arrangements, we can also see why it is hard to account for the origin of such states by spontaneous processes in the scope of the observable universe. (Of course, since it is as a rule very inconvenient to work in terms of statistical weights of macrostates [i.e W], we instead move to entropy, through s = k ln W. Part of how this is done can be seen by imagining a system in which there are W ways accessible, and imagining a partition into parts 1 and 2. W = W1*W2, as for each arrangement in 1 all accessible arrangements in 2 are possible and vice versa, but it is far more convenient to have an additive measure, i.e we need to go to logs. The constant of proportionality, k, is the famous Boltzmann constant and is in effect the universal gas constant, R, on a per molecule basis, i.e we divide R by the Avogadro Number, NA, to get: k = R/NA. The two approaches to entropy, by Clausius, and Boltzmann, of course, correspond. In real-world systems of any significant scale, the relative statistical weights are usually so disproportionate, that the classical observation that entropy naturally tends to increase, is readily apparent.)
Now, what happens if one opens up a system and allows in energy? Obviously, if it is not carefully coupled to systems that use a flow-through of mass and energy to do work, there is more energy available to be dispersed among the micro level components, i.e. the system tends to get more disordered, by overwhelming probability. To instead get the energy added to create order, we need something that imposed that order, sot heat the energy does not just go to disorder. Work, of course is forced, ordered motion. Hence the point of the too often dismissed Hoyle comment about tornadoes in junkyards. The tornado has lots of energy indeed, but no orderly pattern relvant to making a jumbo jet. So it will by overwhelming probability simply scatter parts hither and yon, and it would be astonishing beyond reasonable expectaitons that instead it would assemble a jumbo jet form the parts. But take those same parts and put men to work with machines according to an intelligent, purposeful plan, and the parts will end up as a jumbo jet. Energy and mass inflow and/or outflow are not enough to explain complex functionally specific organisation and associated information. And the plan and machinery that put the organisation into effect form components may in turn be the same sort of FSCO/I rich system that is organised and in turn requires explanation. Indeed, it is not just Hoyle who makes a comment like this, here is Robert Shapiro in his 2006 Sci Am paper on OOL (cf cite here):
To rescue the RNA-first concept from [its] otherwise lethal defect, its advocates have created a discipline called prebiotic synthesis. They have attempted to show that RNA and its components can be prepared in their laboratories in a sequence of carefully controlled reactions, normally carried out in water at temperatures observed on Earth . . . . Unfortunately, neither chemists nor laboratories were present on the early Earth to produce RNA . . . . The analogy that comes to mind is that of a golfer, who having played a golf ball through an 18-hole course, then assumed that the ball could also play itself around the course in his absence. He had demonstrated the possibility of the event; it was only necessary to presume that some combination of natural forces (earthquakes, winds, tornadoes and floods, for example) could produce the same result, given enough time. No physical law need be broken for spontaneous RNA formation to happen, but the chances against it are so immense, that the suggestion implies that the non-living world had an innate desire to generate RNA. The majority of origin-of-life scientists who still support the RNA-first theory either accept this concept (implicitly, if not explicitly) or feel that the immensely unfavorable odds were simply overcome by good luck.
Orgel's reply was in some respects almost as on point:
Why should one believe that an ensemble of minerals that are capable of catalyzing each of the many steps of [for instance] the reverse citric acid cycle was present anywhere on the primitive Earth [8], or that the cycle mysteriously organized itself topographically on a metal sulfide surface [6]? The lack of a supporting background in chemistry is even more evident in proposals that metabolic cycles can evolve to “life-like” complexity. The most serious challenge to proponents of metabolic cycle theories—the problems presented by the lack of specificity of most nonenzymatic catalysts—has, in general, not been appreciated. If it has, it has been ignored. Theories of the origin of life based on metabolic cycles cannot be justified by the inadequacy of competing theories: they must stand on their own . . . . The prebiotic syntheses that have been investigated experimentally almost always lead to the formation of complex mixtures. Proposed polymer replication schemes are unlikely to succeed except with reasonably pure input monomers. No solution of the origin-of-life problem will be possible until the gap between the two kinds of chemistry is closed. Simplification of product mixtures through the self-organization of organic reaction sequences, whether cyclic or not, would help enormously, as would the discovery of very simple replicating polymers. However, solutions offered by supporters of geneticist or metabolist scenarios that are dependent on “if pigs could fly” hypothetical chemistry are unlikely to help.
Now, onlookers, look back at the thread above. Do you see any serious answer to the source of complex, functionally specific information coming from the objectors to design theory? Or, do you see instead if pigs could fly speculation whereby once mass and energy flow-throughs account for heat, we can disregard the disorganising effects that naturally utterly dominate? That is the real issue and it is being ducked, dodged and diverted from. KFkairosfocus
July 6, 2013
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1. The entropy of A decreases when the water freezes.
Your position cannot explain water's existence, let alone its properties.Joe
July 6, 2013
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The Interventionist Designer hypothesis, however, does require suspension of the 2nd Law.
That you think so is why no one takes you seriously- no one from the ID side anyway.Joe
July 6, 2013
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Cantor: I think it's perfectly possible to tell whether a proposed explanation would violate the 2nd Law or not, and the evolutionary explanation doesn't. If it did, no-one would take it seriously. The Interventionist Designer hypothesis, however, does require suspension of the 2nd Law. Which may be why a lot of people don't take it seriously.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 6, 2013
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CS3, I've mentioned this a couple of times already but people (including you) haven't picked up on it, so let me try again. When Granville argues against the compensation idea, he is unwittingly arguing against the second law itself. It's easy to see why. Imagine two open systems A and B that interact only with each other. Now draw a boundary around just A and B and label the contents as system C. Because A and B interact only with each other, and not with anything outside of C, we know that C is an isolated system (by definition). The second law tells us that the entropy cannot decrease in any isolated system (including C). We also know from thermodynamics that the entropy of C is equal to the entropy of A plus the entropy of B. All of us (including Granville) know that it's possible for entropy to decrease locally, as when a puddle of water freezes. So imagine that system A is a container of water that becomes ice. Note: 1. The entropy of A decreases when the water freezes. 2. The second law tells us that the entropy of C cannot decrease. 3. Thermodynamics tells us that the entropy of C is equal to the entropy of A plus the entropy of B. 4. Therefore, if the entropy of A decreases, the entropy of B must increase by at least an equal amount to avoid violating the second law. The second law demands that compensation must happen. If you deny compensation, you deny the second law. Thus Granville's paper is not only chock full of errors, it actually shoots itself in the foot by contradicting the second law! It's a monumental mess that belongs nowhere near the pages of any respectable scientific publication. The BI organizers really screwed up when they accepted Granville's paper.keiths
July 6, 2013
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cantor@181: That’s the answer to a completely different question. Please answer the question that was given.
. attn Liddle: I will give you a 4th option: 4) I do not know if it is possible to make a definitive quantitative argument either waycantor
July 6, 2013
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Lizzie,
So, while it is true that he is not saying that evolution has biolated the 2nd law...
Another fortuitous typo!keiths
July 6, 2013
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CS3, first of all:
First, let’s be fair and distinguish what Sewell may personally believe, and what is actually in the paper. As has been mentioned several times, in the paper, he is very careful not to claim that evolution has violated the Second Law.
From Granville Sewell's Mathematical Intelligencer paper:
[The other point] is that to attribute the development of life on Earth to natural selection is to assign to it--and to it alone, of all known natural "forces"--the ability to violate the second law of thermodynamics and to cause order to arise from disorder.
Clearly, Granville is stating here that "to attribute the development of life on Earth to natural selection" is to propose a mechanism that has "the ability to violate the second law of thermodynamics". So, while it is true that he is not saying that evolution has biolated the 2nd law he is clearly saying that if it happened it would have violated it!s (If so, equally, a Designer would have violated it, but that is different problem). And it is precisely this that keiths and I contend is incorrect. Secondly: thanks for your specific comments on my post. It does indeed seem that we agree on much. Personally, what I am concerned with is whether Granville's argument makes sense, not whether others have correctly diagnosed what is wrong with it. That said, while I have not read in detail some of the alleged refutations, it is perfectly true, as far as I can see, that if there is a local entropy decrease in a system work must have been done on that system from a system outside that system, and when a system does work, entropy increases. If work is done by a hot system passing heat to a cooler system, the entropy in the hotter system will increase at most as much, and usually more, than the entropy in the cooler system decreases. On earth we have a hot system nearby (the sun) and so it is not surprising that work can be done on local systems on our cooler earth, resulting in local entropy decreases. But even if we did not have the sun, and the only hot thing was the molten core of our planet, it can still cause temperature gradients that can move things, and that movement can result in a local decrease of entropy. Here is where I think you, and Granville, go wrong:
I think it is fair to say that the Second Law says that the direction of spontaneous change is from an arrangement of lesser probability to an arrangement of greater probability.
In this form it would be simple tautology: probable arrangements are more probable than improbable arrangements. We don't need a 2nd Law to tell us that! That is why I gave my example above of two identical series of Hs and Ts. You simply cannot examine the pair and say which one was "probable" and which was not. You need a crucial additional piece of information, which is the process that generated them. In fact, the first was generated by a process that gave that sequence a 1/10^2 probability of occurring, while the other was generated by a process that gave it a near unity probability of occurring. This is the problem that lies at the heart not only of Granville's argument, but also of Dembskian ID: we simply cannot look at a pattern and say whether it was probable or improbable. We have to say: given generative process X, this pattern was (or was not) probable. A patch of sun-warmed earth can vastly increase the probability that the air molecules above it will stop moving in equiprobable directions, but start to move systematically in an ascending spiral, creating a column of low entropy air capable of piling a diffuse layer of leaves into a close-packed pile. Such an arrangement of air and leaves is vastly improbable in the absence of infra-red solar heat warming a patch of earth. But in the presence of that infra-red heat, the dust devil becomes not only possible, but highly probable. If you sat watching the scene under the right conditions, you'd be surprised not to see one. In other words, whenever someone mention the "probability" of an arrangement, they need to specifiy the conditions under which the arrangement would be "probable". Under isolated conditions, the most probable arrangement for a system is uniform diffustion. But if work can be done on the system from outside the system, a very different, and sometimes highly complex, arrangement can become much
more probable than uniform diffusion. And this is precisely why the 2nd Law allows for local entropy increases if some neigbouring system is able to do work - but that neighbouring system, in doing the work, will suffer an entropy decrease. Which is fine.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 6, 2013
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keithS: First, let’s be fair and distinguish what Sewell may personally believe, and what is actually in the paper. As has been mentioned several times, in the paper, he is very careful not to claim that evolution has violated the Second Law. All he says is that the methodology Asimov, Styer, Bunn, and many others have used to show that it has not been violated is flawed. He allows there may be other ways to show that it has not been violated. You can't just say it is fine to make any argument, no matter how flawed, against a misconception. If the argument really is flawed, then either there must be another argument that is not flawed, or else perhaps the misconception is not actually a misconception. So, while I know you agree with their conclusion that it has not been violated, do you agree with their methodology to reach that conclusion? If you do agree with their methodology, then don’t attack Sewell for making the same assumptions as the people with whom you agree. Either dispute the argument that is specific to him (that, if something is extremely improbable when a system is isolated, it is still extremely improbable when a system is open, unless something enters or leaves that makes it not extremely improbable), or just leave it alone. If you don’t agree with their methodology, then I would honestly encourage you to write a paper pointing out their mistakes and providing your explanation for why there is no conflict (for example, saying that the Second Law is only about energy, and there has been no overall decrease in thermal entropy in the universe). I am genuinely curious as to whether the countless scientists who have made the arguments that Asimov, Styer, and Bunn have made would readily concede that they were confused and you are right. Secondly, your argument that there must be no conflict with the neo-Darwinian mechanism because laws apply to all physical processes only makes sense if you assume a priori with 100% certainty that neo-Darwinism is an accurate description of the process. If I were to propose a detailed mechanism for how, say, photosynthesis works, and someone were to later find that, according to my proposed mechanism, there would be a net energy increase in the universe, that would conflict with the First Law, and thus cast serious doubt on my mechanism as an accurate description of the physical process of photosynthesis. Elizabeth Liddle: Certainly we are in agreement that natural forces can do things other than distribute particles uniformly. Sewell must agree with that also; otherwise, he would be able to definitively claim that the Second Law has been violated, because obviously the Earth is not in a state of uniform distribution. Let me address this in the context of the paper and of the more general argument. In the paper, the statement that “if something is extremely improbable when a system is isolated, it is still extremely improbable when the system is open, unless something enters or leaves that makes it not extremely improbable” makes no claims about what is or is not improbable. As I mentioned in comment 84, not everyone makes the compensation argument. Some, like you, believe that human brains, computers, and encyclopedias are not an improbable result of natural forces acting on a sunlit barren planet, and thus your position is not threatened by the paper itself. To be clear, though, that is definitely not the position Asimov, Styer, Bunn, and Lloyd were making. If they did not think anything improbable was happening, then there would be no need for them to convert the probabilities of improbable events into entropies and compare that to a different type of entropy to satisfy an inequality. And, even if the energy were causing these events, it makes no sense for them to try to convert from the original improbability of what happened to how much energy is needed. It takes energy to flip coins, but it takes no more energy to flip all heads than to flip half heads and half tails. Outside of the paper, such as on this message board, I assume it is safe to say that Sewell, and I, do disagree with your position that human brains, computers, and encyclopedias are not an improbable result of natural forces acting on a sunlit barren planet. However, I certainly admit I can’t prove it. Obviously, the four unintelligent natural forces can create things with order (or appearances of order) and not just uniform distributions, as would be the case if diffusion alone were operative. However, while of course not always trivial, it is generally not too hard to imagine the types of order we see, such as snowflakes, that are produced indisputably by only natural forces (excluding life and human inventions) as products of just gravitation, electromagnetism, and the strong and weak nuclear forces. It is much more difficult to imagine spaceships and iPhones as products of those forces. But again, that is admittedly an intuition, not a proof. Just as my skepticism that a tornado could turn rubble into a house is based on intuition. As I quoted previously, my University Physics book has a section entitled “Building physical intuition” about the Second Law with examples such as this (e.g., card shuffling). I think it is fair to say that the Second Law says that the direction of spontaneous change is from an arrangement of lesser probability to an arrangement of greater probability. The only problem is that, outside of thermal entropy, which is easily quantifiable, allowing one to compute with certainty which arrangement is more probable, in other cases, we usually can only use intuition to guess which arrangement has greater probability. And intuition can sometimes be wrong, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t sometimes pretty obvious. To use my magnetized coin flipping example again, I can believe that natural forces could cause all heads to come up, even though that would be an extremely improbable macrostate (with only one microstate) based on random chance alone, because that is consistent with the type of “order” I could expect based on my knowledge and experience with the natural forces (and in fact, would happen if I placed a magnet under the table). However, I could not believe that natural forces could cause the coins to come up as a bit-wise representation of a great novel (without, say, an intelligent human setting initial conditions to assure that happens, for example, by placing small magnets selectively under certain coins), even though that macrostate is no more improbable (assuming only chance) than the all heads macrostate (in fact there are more microstates in this case), because that is not a type of “order” consistent with my understanding or experience of what the natural forces can do. Could they land such that every 2i+5 is heads? I would think probably not, but maybe there is a way that could happen that I just haven’t thought of. It is not always easy to say exactly what the four unintelligent natural forces can and can’t do, but that doesn’t mean, in my opinion, that there aren’t some cases that are obvious. (Disclaimer: obviously all of these statements are made assuming a reasonable limit on the total number of flips.) That said, I agree that, apart from the refutation of the compensation argument (which was the content of the paper itself), these other arguments are essentially equivalent to the CSI arguments made, with more rigor, by Dembski and others. Thus, I would not expect anyone unconvinced by those arguments to be convinced by Sewell’s arguments in that regard.CS3
July 6, 2013
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Fourth option, Cantor: 4) Nothing in the theory of evolution violate the 2nd Law of thermodynamics.
That's the answer to a completely different question. Please answer the question that was given.
Granville is incorrect when he claims that if it were true, the 2nd Law would be violated.
That's a red herring. Please answer the question on its own terms.cantor
July 6, 2013
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4) Nothing in the theory of evolution violate the 2nd Law of thermodynamics.
What theory of evolution? Can you provide a link or reference, please? Maybe some testable hypotheses?Joe
July 6, 2013
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Fourth option, Cantor: 4) Nothing in the theory of evolution violate the 2nd Law of thermodynamics. Granville is incorrect when he claims that if it were true, the 2nd Law would be violated.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 6, 2013
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FYI-FTR on the flawed compensation argument.kairosfocus
July 6, 2013
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And still no evidence that unguided evolution is up to the task. Strange that when all it would take is actual evidence to refute Granville, evolutionists cannot offer any. And that alone is evry telling...Joe
July 6, 2013
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OK, now let's reword the question 1) the unguided purposeless action of the four known physical laws cannot be the sole explanation for how this planet was transformed from barren and lifeless to what we see today, because that would violate the 2nd law 2) the unguided purposeless action of the four known physical laws is the sole explanation for how this planet was transformed from barren and lifeless to what we see today, and that does not violate the 2nd law 3) it is impossible to make a definitive quantitative argument either waycantor
July 6, 2013
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ks (at 153) - I am a novice here, but I have an interest in whether or not mindless evolution does in fact violate the 2nd Law or not, so I’d be grateful for your view on whether the following is on the right track: For your apparatus to work, the solar cell will have to power a heat pump, and the operational efficiency of the heat pump will provide the necessary compensation. For undirected (blind, mindless) evolution to work without violating the 2nd Law, natural selective processes (successful competition between organisms with differential functionality-selectivity-fecundity, simplifying and ignoring luck) will presumably provide the equivalent role of the heat pump. Entropy (or X-entropy) will, however, be quantified by an appropriate measure of complexity, not functionality-selectivity-fecundity (since what we are concerned with here is the unplanned/unintelligent/mindless development of “organised”, or “specified”, complexity). Thus, in order to demonstrate that undirected evolution works without violating the 2nd Law and that natural selective processes can indeed supply the role of a heat pump, it needs to be demonstrated empirically that there exists (on average) a significant positive correlation between appropriately quantified increases in functionality-selectivity-fecundity and appropriately quantified increases in complexity. Is there any empirical evidence which would reliably suggest this?Thomas2
July 6, 2013
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Cantor:
Multiple choice: 1) evolution violates the 2nd Law 2) evolution does not violate the 2nd Law 3) it’s impossible to say either way
2, in the sense that what is proposed in evolutionary theory is not a mechanism that would involve violation of the 2nd Law. On the other hand, the ID proposal does propose, not a violation, but the intervention of an agent to whom it does not apply - something that can do work i.e move stuff around - molecules, ions, whether in cells, brains or primordial soups - but which does not experience an increase in entropy. Or does anyone suggest that minds, whether ours that of a designing deity, do increase in entropy after they have done their designing?Elizabeth B Liddle
July 6, 2013
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