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Where is the difference here?

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Since my Cornell conference contribution has generated dozens of critical comments on another thread, I feel compelled to respond. I hope this is the last time I ever have to talk about this topic, I’m really tired of it.

Here are two scenarios:

1. A tornado hits a town, turning houses and cars into rubble. Then, another tornado hits, and turns the rubble back into houses and cars.

2. The atoms on a barren planet spontaneously rearrange themselves, with the help of solar energy and under the direction of four unintelligent forces of physics alone, into humans, cars, high-speed computers, libraries full of science texts and encyclopedias, TV sets, airplanes and spaceships. Then, the sun explodes into a supernova, and, with the help of solar energy, all of these things turn back into dust.

It is almost universally agreed in the scientific community that the second stage (but not the first) of scenario 1 would violate the second law of thermodynamics, at least the more general statements of this law (eg, “In an isolated system, the direction of spontaneous change is from order to disorder” see footnote 4 in my paper). It is also almost universally agreed that the first stage of scenario 2 does not violate the second law. (Of course, everyone agrees that there is no conflict in the second stage.) Why, what is the difference here?

Every general physics book which discusses evolution and the second law argues that the first stage of scenario 2 does not violate the second law because the Earth is an open system, and entropy can decrease in an open system as long as the decrease is compensated by increases outside the Earth. I gave several examples of this argument in section 1, if you can find a single general physics text anywhere which makes a different argument in claiming that evolution does not violate the second law, let me know which one.

Well, this same compensation argument can equally well be used to argue that the second tornado in scenario 1 does not violate the second law: the Earth is an open system, tornados receive their energy from the sun, any decrease in entropy due to a tornado that turns rubble into houses and cars is easily compensated by increases outside the Earth. It is difficult to define or measure entropy in scenario 2, but it is equally difficult in scenario 1.

I’ll save you the trouble: there is only one reason why nearly everyone agrees that the second law is violated in scenario 1 and not scenario 2: because there is a widely believed theory as to how the evolution of life and of human intelligence happened, while there is no widely believed theory as to how a tornado could turn rubble into houses and cars. There is no other argument which can be made as to why the second law is not violated in scenario 2, that could not equally well be applied to argue that it is not violated in scenario 1 either.

Well, in this paper, and every other piece I have written on this topic, including my new Bio-Complexity paper , and the video below, I have acknowledged that, if you really can explain scenario 2, then it does not violate the basic principle behind the second law. In my conclusions in the Cornell contribution, I wrote:

Of course, one can still argue that the spectacular increase in order seen on Earth is consistent with the underlying principle behind the second law, because what has happened here is not really extremely improbable. One can still argue that once upon a time…a collection of atoms formed by pure chance that was able to duplicate itself, and these complex collections of atoms were able to pass their complex structures on to their descendents generation after generation, even correcting errors. One can still argue that, after a long time, the accumulation of genetic accidents resulted in greater and greater information content in the DNA of these more and more complex collections of atoms, and eventually something called “intelligence” allowed some of these collections of atoms to design cars and trucks and spaceships and nuclear power plants. One can still argue that it only seems extremely improbable, but really isn’t, that under the right conditions, the influx of stellar energy into a planet could cause atoms to rearrange themselves into computers and laser printers and the Internet.

Of course, if you can come up with a nice theory on how tornados could turn rubble into houses and cars, you can argue that the second law is not violated in scenario 1 either.

Elizabeth and KeithS, you are welcome to go back into your complaints about what an idiot Sewell is to think that dust spontaneously turning into computers and the Internet might violate “the basic principle behind the second law,” and how this bad paper shows that all of the Cornell contributions were bad, but please first give me another reason, other than the one I acknowledged, why there is a conflict with the second law (or at least the fundamental principle behind the second law) in scenario 1 and not in scenario 2? (Or perhaps you suddenly now don’t see any conflict with the second law in scenario 1 either, that is an acceptable answer, but now you are in conflict with the scientific consensus!)

And if you can’t think of another reason, what in my paper do you disagree with, it seems we are in complete agreement!!

Comments
CS3: I think you make a fair point, and indeed I do think that the rebuttals you cite are not in fact rebuttals of Granville's 2nd Law argument against evolution. I think they are rebuttals of a different argument (possibly not one in fact made) namely, that in the absence of any external energy input, the Earth would be cooling, not heating, and therefore increasing in entropy, not reducing. And, self-evidently, we observe entropy reductions on earth - things get hotter, and indeed, trees grow from seeds, and bacteria from other bacteria resulting in an increase of energy stored in a form capable of doing useful work, as we demonstrate every time we use fossil fuels, or indeed, make a bonfire. This however does not mean that the 2nd Law has been violated, because when the sun heats the earth it is not "passing heat from a cooler to a hotter" but the reverse. However, Granville correctly points out that this is not his argument, and as keith correctly pointed out to me - the reason trees can grow is not because the sun is increasing in entropy (although it is), but becauses there is a local decrease in entropy (the conversion of carbon dioxide and water into sugar) accompanied by a local decrease in entropy (the air cools). The non-violating sun to earth transfer isn't the issue here, although it makes the sugar production possible; the puzzle that needs to be solved is how heat can be passed from "a cooler to a hotter" here on earth. Another way of putting this is to say: how can there be subtantial local entropy increases, i.e. how can there anything other than diffusion towards uniform mixing, if the 2nd Law holds? Or, to take Granville's example: why do we consider the reduction of a town to rubble by a tornado perfectly unremarkable, but would consider the restoration back to order by a second tornado utterly extraordinary? Leaving aside the 2nd Law for a moment, I’d say: “restoring something to order” is in any case not unique to living beings. Sure we know that people can restore a town to order, but, as my saltpan example showed, order can be restored (in the sense that what was diffused can become undiffused again) in a salt pan after a flood. Indeed, saltpans are the result of a repeating cycle of flooding and evaporation, in which phases of diffusion of salt into water to produce a substantially uniformly saline fluid, is followed by phases of separation and reflooding, at the peak of which, we have, again, salt and water separated into two undiffused volumes. The genie can be put back into the bottle. The same applies to tornadoes themselves. In still air, the directions of movement of any molecule at any time is equiprobable. At any moment, molecules moving upwards are no more prevalent than molecules moving sideways, or downwards or diagonally, east, west, north or south. Directions are uniformly distributed throughout the air – there is no spatial autocorrelation between directions of movement. However, in a tornado, this is spectacularly reversed – there is massive spatial autocorrelation between the direction of movement of air molecules – the directions are massively undiffused! And yet still air can readily form a vortex, just as a vortex can revert to being still air. In other words, there is plenty of precedent, with no recourse to anything other than the “four fundamental forces” for things to undiffuse, as well as to diffuse. How can this be? One of the expressions of the 2nd Law that Granville cites in his BIOcomplexity paper is:
3. In an isolated system, the direction of spontaneous change is from an arrangement of lesser probability to an arrangement of greater probability
At first glance this is a rather odd statement, and seems merely to be stating, tautologically, that: “more probable arrangements are more probable than less probable arrangements”. The reason it isn’t is that, as I keep trying to say, “probability” is not a property of an arrangement, but of the process that generated the arrangement. Here are two arrangements of Hs and Ts: TTTHTTHHTT TTTHTTHHTT Which is more “probable”? “But they are both the same!” you say! But I will now tell you that I generated the first by using the formula, =IF(RAND()> 0.5,"H","T") in Excel and pasting the results into the post, and I generated the second by carefully copying the first into a new line. So the probability of getting the first pattern is 1/(2^10), whereas the probability of getting the second is near 1 (if I’d used cut and paste, it would have been 1, but I relied on hand-typing it). In other words, the probability of an arrangement is not discernable from looking at the arrangement, but by computing the probability of that arrangement, given a generative process. So to look again at that that 3rd statement of the 2nd Law quoted by Granville: it is not as silly as it looks at first. A clearer way of saying the same thing would be something like: “In a set of items in which an items is as likely to adopt one state, or move in one direction as in any other, the the direction of spontaneous change in the uniformity of the arrangment will be from lesser to greater uniformity, because the number of possible arrangements rises monotonically with degree of uniformity”. An example would be of a set of spherical, in a tray being jiggled energetically. If the beads start off in an nice close-packed arrangement, the direction will be in the direction of uniformly distributed beads because there are simply more arrangements of uniformly distributed beads than there are of more closely packed beads, And because the possible uniform arrangements are more numerous they are also more probable However, this is an “isolated system”, consisting of a tray, beads and jiggling. If something from the outside comes along and raises one end of the tray (“does work” on the tray), now the probabilities change dramatically: now, a uniform distribution of beads becomes extremely unlikely and the most probable arrangement is a close-packed arrangement of beads at one end of the tray. It’s not that a improbable arrangement has, against all odds, somehow defied “the laws of statistics”, or, indeed, the 2nd Law of thermodynamics, and occurred, but that the generative conditions under which the most probable arrangement used to be “uniform distribution” have changed, and the most probable arrangement now is “close-packed at one end”. And so, to answer Granvilles question as to how the influx of energy from elsewhere can make an improbable thing probable is simply that it can do just that: make the more probable thing something other than “uniformly diffused”. How such an influx of energy can do this depends on depending on what is being “undiffused” by what, where. But not only does it happen all the time, in both biological and non-biological systems, but it does not violate the 2nd Law because the 2nd Law specifically allows for local decrease in a system entropy (e.g. more closely packed beads on a tray) to occur if something from outside does work on the system. And so if we see an “undiffused” arrangement emerging spontaneously from a “diffused” arrangement, as for example is proposed by OoL theories (not that we have a really good one yet), we need not conclude that the 2nd Law must have been violated for such a thing to happen – what we need to do is figure out what, for example, from outside a system of molecules diffusing around in an archaeosoup, might have undiffused them. And a number of proposals involve thermal gradients, or cyclical convection currents, which are not forbidden by the 2nd Law, even though the creation of a thermal gradient where there was previously no gradient does require work to be done on the system, just as work was required to tip the tray of beads, and produce a gravity gradient. Given a gradient, “undiffusion” is possible, and gradients are not forbidden by the 2nd Law. And, indeed, incoming solar energy, acting nonuniformly on the terrestrial surface, regularly provides such a gradient. And all that is required for the energy to act non-uniformly is for the earth to turn, which it does! But it doesn't even need to be the sun, and at least some OoL theories posit that hydrothermal vents provided the necessarily gradients. And hydrothermal vents do not violate the 2nd Law any more than tornadoes do. (Apologies for the long post - if I were smarter I could probably have posted a shorter one! But I'd appreciate comments, nonetheless, from those who make it to the end :))Elizabeth B Liddle
July 6, 2013
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Eric,
Nice try. Thermodynamics as it relates to evolution is either a live topic or not.
Oh, it's definitely a live topic! For people like Granville, it's a live topic because they actually think (!) that thermodynamics somehow forbids evolution. For people like Asimov, Bunn, Styer, Lloyd, Lizzie, and me, it's a live topic because so many people share Granville's misconception, to our great dismay.
If all these folks CS3 cited (plus the article Matzke referred us to on this very issue that I mentioned) think it is worth discussing, then it is certainly fine for Granville to respond to those kinds of papers and say that the alleged answers fail.
It's perfectly fine for Granville to write any kind of paper he wants. The paper he wrote, however, is so shoddy and full of mistakes from stem to stern that it should never have been accepted by the organizers of the BI symposium and it certainly never deserved to see the inside of a serious scientific publication. Granville is mistaken to think that the second law poses any kind of a problem for evolution.
Your last sentence is clearly false. There are scholars who have addressed the thermodynamics issue on its own merits, absent any impetus to debunk creationists.
A misconception is a misconception regardless of who holds it, Eric. If the scholars you have in mind tackled the issue because they thought it was unresolved, they were mistaken. If they tackled it because they knew it was widely misunderstood and wanted to dispel the confusion, then good for them.
Surely you aren’t arguing that all those papers CS3 cited make the argument that thermodynamics are irrelevant? Rather, at least based on the summaries CS3 provided, they appear to be saying thermodynamics are very much relevant, but the authors think they can be compensated for because of some alleged openness of the system, changes in background radiation, etc... Either thermodynamics are relevant or they are not. Lots of scholars seem to think they are. Maybe you and Elizabeth should get on board; or at the very least consider that perhaps it is an issue that merits attention.
Thermodynamics is relevant to evolution in exactly the same sense that it is relevant to knitting. Neither activity is allowed to violate the second law, and neither activity does. Beyond that, there is no reason to bring up the second law when discussing knitting or evolution. No reason, that is, unless people start latching on to the idea that they do somehow violate the second law. Fortunately, the knitters of the world do not have to deal with uninformed people who think that knitting violates the second law (although DaveScot famously stated that he violated the second law every time he typed something). If only evolutionary biologists and physicists were as fortunate as the knitters!
Then we can talk about whether or not the alleged approaches to deal with the thermodynamics issue are rational and successful.
That's what this entire thread has been about. Didn't you notice?keiths
July 5, 2013
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Multiple choice: 1) evolution violates the 2nd Law 2) evolution does not violate the 2nd Law 3) it's impossible to say either waycantor
July 5, 2013
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keiths @170: Nice try. Thermodynamics as it relates to evolution is either a live topic or not. If all these folks CS3 cited (plus the article Matzke referred us to on this very issue that I mentioned) think it is worth discussing, then it is certainly fine for Granville to respond to those kinds of papers and say that the alleged answers fail. Your last sentence is clearly false. There are scholars who have addressed the thermodynamics issue on its own merits, absent any impetus to debunk creationists. Surely you aren't arguing that all those papers CS3 cited make the argument that thermodynamics are irrelevant? Rather, at least based on the summaries CS3 provided, they appear to be saying thermodynamics are very much relevant, but the authors think they can be compensated for because of some alleged openness of the system, changes in background radiation, etc. Let's drop the double standard. Either thermodynamics are relevant or they are not. Lots of scholars seem to think they are. Maybe you and Elizabeth should get on board; or at the very least consider that perhaps it is an issue that merits attention. Then we can talk about whether or not the alleged approaches to deal with the thermodynamics issue are rational and successful.Eric Anderson
July 5, 2013
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CS3,
Is there a double standard?
No. What I've been saying, and I think Lizzie would agree, is that the second law has no more to do with evolution than the first law, or the zeroth law, or Newton's laws of motion, or Coulomb's law. All of these laws apply to every physical process -- otherwise they wouldn't be laws! -- but they have no particular relevance to discussions of evolution because evolution doesn't violate any of them. The only reason that Asimov, Bunn, Styer and Lloyd tackled the topic was to debunk the common misconception among creationists and IDers that evolution does violate the second law. Absent that misconception, there is no reason to bring the second law into discussions of evolution versus ID.keiths
July 5, 2013
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So let’s see if I have this all straight. 1) Isaac Asimov publishes an article in the Smithsonian Institute Journal, entitled "In the game of energy and thermodynamics, you can’t even break even", arguing that, when applying the Second Law of Thermodynamics to the improbability of organisms due to evolution, there is no conflict because the increase in the complexity of organisms is compensated by the increase in entropy of the Sun. To quote the article itself:
You can argue, of course, that the phenomenon of life may be an exception [to the second law]. Life on earth has steadily grown more complex, more versatile, more elaborate, more orderly, over the billions of years of the planet’s existence. From no life at all, living molecules were developed, then living cells, then living conglomerates of cells, worms, vertebrates, mammals, finally Man. And in Man is a three-pound brain which, as far as we know, is the most complex and orderly arrangement of matter in the universe. How could the human brain develop out of the primeval slime? How could that vast increase in order (and therefore that vast decrease in entropy) have taken place? Remove the sun, and the human brain would not have developed.... And in the billions of years that it took for the human brain to develop, the increase in entropy that took place in the sun was far greater; far, far greater than the decrease that is represented by the evolution required to develop the human brain.
2) Daniel Styer publishes an article in the American Journal of Physics, entitled “Entropy and Evolution”, arguing that, when applying the Second Law of Thermodynamics to the improbability of organisms due to evolution, there is no conflict because the increase in the complexity of organism is compensated by the increase in entropy of the cosmic microwave background. His paper is a quantitative version of the compensation argument frequently made in textbooks and by prominent Darwinists such as Isaac Asimov and Richard Dawkins. To quote the article itself:
Does the second law of thermodynamics prohibit biological evolution?...Suppose that, due to evolution, each individual organism is 1000 times “more improbable” than the corresponding individual was 100 years ago. In other words, if Ui is the number of microstates consistent with the speci?cation of an organism 100 years ago, and Uf is the number of microstates consistent with the speci?cation of today’s “improved and less probable” organism, then Uf = 10^-3Ui.
Presumably the entropy of the Earth’s biosphere is indeed decreasing by a tiny amount due to evolution, and the entropy of the cosmic microwave background is increasing by an even greater amount to compensate for that decrease. But the decrease in entropy required for evolution is so small compared to the entropy throughput that would occur even if the Earth were a dead planet, or if life on Earth were not evolving, that no measurement would ever detect it.
3) Emory Bunn publishes an article in the American Journal of Physics, entitled “Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamics”, arguing that, when applying the Second Law of Thermodynamics to the improbability of organisms due to evolution, there is no conflict because the increase in the complexity of organisms is compensated by the increase in entropy of the cosmic microwave background. His estimate of the improbability of life due to evolution is “more generous” than Styer’s. To quote the article itself:
We now consider (dS/dt)life. .. far from being generous, a probability ratio of Ui/Uf = 10^-3 is probably much too low. One of the central ideas of statistical mechanics is that even tiny changes in a macroscopic object (say, one as large as a cell) result in exponentially large changes in the multiplicity (that is, the number of accessible microstates). I will illustrate this idea by some order of magnitude estimates. First, let us address the precise meaning of the phrase “due to evolution.” If a child grows up to be slightly larger than her mother due to improved nutrition, we do not describe this change as due to evolution, and thus we might not count the associated multiplicity reduction in the factor Ui/Uf. Instead we might count only changes such as the turning on of a new gene as being due to evolution. However, this narrow view would be incorrect. For this argument we should do our accounting in such a way that all biological changes are included. Even if a change like the increased size of an organism is not the direct result of evolution for this organism in this particular generation, it is still ultimately due to evolution in the broad sense that all life is due to evolution. All of the extra proteins, DNA molecules, and other complex structures that are present in the child are there because of evolution at some point in the past if not in the present, and they should be accounted for in our calculation… We conclude that the entropy reduction required for life on Earth is far less than |dS life| ? 10^44k… the second law of thermodynamics is safe.
4) Granville Sewell submits a paper to Applied Mathematics Letters in response to this compensation argument. (It is peer-reviewed and accepted, but later withdrawn “not because of any errors or technical problems found by the reviewers or editors.”) His central claim is, “if an increase in order is extremely improbable when a system is isolated, it is still extremely improbable when the system is open, unless something is entering (or leaving) which makes it not extremely improbable.” 5) Bob Lloyd publishes a viewpoint in the Mathematical Intelligencer disagreeing with Sewell’s withdrawn article. Lloyd backs Styer and Bunn, arguing that, when applying the Second Law of Thermodynamics to the improbability of organisms due to evolution, there is no conflict because the increase in the organism complexity is compensated by the increase in entropy of the cosmic microwave background. To quote the article itself:
The qualitative point associated with the solar input to Earth, which was dismissed so casually in the abstract of the AML paper, and the quantitative formulations of this by Styer and Bunn, stand, and are unchallenged by Sewell's work.
6) A paper similar to the withdrawn AML paper is published in the proceedings of the Biological Information – New Perspectives conference. 7) Critics on UD are outraged that Sewell is such an idiot for applying the Second Law of Thermodynamics to the improbability of organisms due to evolution, when (paraphrasing) “every physicist on earth knows it is only applicable to energy”. Some say he would be “laughed out of any reputable physics conference.” It is just “bad science.” Some feel the sabotage of the original publication is completely justified. Some would go so far as to burn the books. 8) So far, no reports of demands for retraction of Asimov, Styer, Bunn, or Lloyd’s articles. No reports of Smithsonian Institute Journals, American Physics Journals, or Mathematical Intelligencers burning in the streets. Is there a double standard?CS3
July 5, 2013
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re: Liddle@167 To be clear, I am not defending Granville's paper. I am interested in calmly exploring where it is right and where it is wrong. The X-entropy argument always puzzled me, because I could think of counter-examples (very similar to keiths' O2 CO2 one). I think the questions you asked I have already answered in post 135. It's possible you missed it in the flurry of posts about that time.cantor
July 5, 2013
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Cantor: as you and Granville seem to be arguing that what is crucial here is that improbable arrangements of matter will not form spontaneously, can you give me a clear account of how you are defining and computing the probability of an arrangement? It seems to depend on some value "M" which if I understand you correctly, stands for "macroscopically describable". I'm not sure if Granville agrees here, but I would like to know what you mean by this, and how it relates to any form of the 2nd Law of thermodynamics that you think is relevent to Granville's argument.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 5, 2013
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Perhaps you are just a very young man who hasn't yet had his sharp edges smoothed by the rough road of life. Or perhaps you're older and suffer from arrested development. Or maybe you're just an internet warrior, and in real life you are much more courteous and respectful. I hope so, for your own sake.cantor
July 5, 2013
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cantor, Interesting that you are offended by my use of the word "bogus" to describe Granville's "X-entropy" concept, but not by Granville's characterization of me as closed-minded with a less than one-in-a-million chance of changing my mind. You're not just an acutely sensitive tone troll, you're a biased one. Please thicken your skin and work on your bias problem. If you're unwilling, then perhaps the Internet is not the right place for you.keiths
July 5, 2013
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since we are discussing “X-entropy”, what do you think of the concept?
I think I care more about respect and manners than I do about X-entropy.cantor
July 5, 2013
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cantor, Still venting, I see. But since we are discussing "X-entropy", what do you think of the concept?keiths
July 5, 2013
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EL (at 158) - It seems surprising that an argument against unintelligent or blind evolution should be countered as "an argument from incredulity". This phraseology seems to suggest that skeptics should uncritically acquiesce to arguments from credulity, and that Darwinian evolutionary science relies on arguments from gullibility! Science requires adequate positive evidence for its claims, and is required to be accessible to proper scrutiny: "he who asserts must prove". A healthy skepticism should be welcomed, not disparaged, surely? (I don't mean this unkindly - I appreciate your posts).Thomas2
July 5, 2013
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I was about to commend you for the lucidity of your post #153 (with the exception of the gratuitous "concede" and "bogus") and then you had to go and spoil it by posting this.cantor
July 5, 2013
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Granville,
OK, you are right. If I thought there was one chance in a million of changing your mind...
The probability approaches one as the strength of your argument increases. If your argument remains as weak as it is now, then the odds remain low. It's up to you to deliver. I understand that it makes you feel better to pretend that our minds are closed and that Lizzie and I have dismissed your arguments out of hand. Anyone reading the thread can see how ludicrous that idea is. For example, I have taken the time to understand and ponder your "X-entropy" concept. I explain above why it doesn't make sense, and I conclude that
...the compensation argument works just fine even in terms of your bogus “X-entropy” concept.
Do you disagree with my critique? If so, then tell me exactly what you disagree with, give your reasons for disagreeing with it, and present a counterargument in favor of your position. It's called debate, Granville.keiths
July 5, 2013
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ks (at 153) - I am a novice here, but I have an interest in whether or not mindless evolution does in fact violate the 2nd Law or not, so I'd be grateful for view on whether the following is on the right track: For your apparatus to work, the solar cell will have to power a heat pump, and the operational efficiency of the heat pump will provide the necessary compensation. For undirected (blind, mindless) evolution to work without violating the 2nd Law, natural selective processes (successful competition between organisms with differential functionality-selectivity-fecundity, simplifying and ignoring luck) will presumably provide the equivalent role of the heat pump. Entropy (or X-entropy) will, however, be quantified by an appropriate measure of complexity, not functionality-selectivity-fecundity (since what we are concerned with here is the unplanned/unintelligent/mindless development of "organised", or "specified", complexity). Thus, in order to demonstrate that undirected evolution works without violating the 2nd Law and that natural selective processes can indeed supply the role of a heat pump, it needs to be demonstrated empirically that there exists (on average) a significant positive correlation between appropriately quantified increases in functionality-selectivity-fecundity and appropriately quantified increases in complexity. Is there any empirical evidence which would reliably suggest this?Thomas2
July 5, 2013
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Cs3:
Sewell’s argument basically boils down to two statements: 1)Natural forces do not do things that are macroscopically describable that are extremely improbable from the microscopic point of view. 2)Statement 1 holds whether a system is isolated or open; when it is open, you just have to also consider what is entering or leaving the system when deciding what is or is not extremely improbable.
Statement 1 does not appear to me to be a statement of the 2nd Law. It seems to be some kind of shoehorning of Dembskian CSI into the 2nd Law. Where are you getting the “macroscopically describable” part from? The point surely is that if a system's macroscopic description applies to many microstates it has more entropy than if it applies to few.
Just like the question of whether ID is “science” ultimately just depends on your definition of “science” and is irrelevant to its truthfulness, debating whether Sewell’s argument is based on what you consider the “Second Law” is an irrelevant distraction to its truthfulness.
Well, not so much. Sewell claims that if evolution is true, the 2nd Law of thermodynamics has been violated. If Sewell means something other than the 2nd Law of thermodynamics, then he needs to rewrite his argument. It's not as though the 2nd Law is ambiguous. And when you take that part out, he's left with Dembski's CSI argument, minus the part about modelling the null to take into account "Darwinian and other material mechanisms".Elizabeth B Liddle
July 5, 2013
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KF
Kindly stop erecting a strawman distortion. What GS has been saying is closely related to how diffusion works. Indeed, he is pointing out that concentrations of heat will do an equivsalent of diffusing, and so he is in effect using this as a broader mathematical construct.
I know that what GS is saying is related to diffusion. I know he is referring to some "broader mathematical construct". I'm saying it doesn't add up. Tell me: how do you account for tornadoes if things always diffuse towards greater uniformity?Elizabeth B Liddle
July 5, 2013
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Granville:
OK, you are right. If I thought there was one chance in a million of changing your mind I could probably find the time to continue responding for a while, but don’t want to spend time on an impossible mission. Anyone who can believe that 4 fundamental, unintelligent forces of physics alone can rearrange atoms into Apple Ipods will not be impressed by any other arguments I make.
But that is not the argument we are currently dealing with. You may be right that the four fundamental forces cannot make an iPod. But that is not a valid inference from the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, or even from probability; it is an argument from incredulity. We know perfectly well that the entropy of local systems can increase. Therefore evidence for a local increase of entropy is neither evidence that the 2nd Law has been violated, nor is it evidence that an entropy-immune Designer must have been involved. You have said that if evolution were true, then there must have been a violation of the 2nd Law by evolutionary processes. That is a mistake. I'm still not sure how you managed to make it, and I'm not even clear whether you agree or disagree that local entropy increases are possible. Do you? If you don't, why is there a problem? If you don't, how do you explain the abundant examples in both the living and non-living world of local decreases in entropy? You seem to have forgotten that what you are calling "improbable" arrangements are only "improbable" under the assumption that all that can happen in the world is movement of matter in equiprobable directions. This is clearly false. If it were true, tornadoes would wildly improbable! They represent massive reductions in entropy! And tornadoes are not only possible, they reliably appear every year in the US. How do you explain them, if your inference is correct?Elizabeth B Liddle
July 5, 2013
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EL: Kindly stop erecting a strawman distortion. What GS has been saying is closely related to how diffusion works. Indeed, he is pointing out that concentrations of heat will do an equivsalent of diffusing, and so he is in effect using this as a broader mathematical construct. KFkairosfocus
July 5, 2013
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Elizabeth B Liddle
"I think CSI is a circular concept."
CSI is organization, an engine is a fully organized system, is an engine - i.e. a physical instantiation of organization - a circular concept?
"Again, living things self construct of course, but what about crystals? Or sand dunes? Do they not “self construct”? If not, who constructs them?"
To speak of "construction" about crystals and dunes is exaggerated. Anyway, they do not self-construct at all. Their behaviour is potentially contained just from the beginning in the qualities of matter/energy and the natural laws, obviously all designed by the Designer of the cosmos.
"The 2nd Law does not forbid local decreases in entropy, gained at the cost of increased entropy in the surroundings, which is all biological organisms represent, and no more than evolution is posited to do."
No, decrease in entropy is not "all biological organisms represent". Organisms represent organization. Simple decrease in entropy is not organization. This a key point. Evolutionists jocundly use "entropy" as a "free lunch": entropy increases there, so entropy decrease here and organisms arise here at zero cost, while the 2nd law is safe. Too good to be true. Since entropy is related to disorder, then I cause a big mess (easy) there to get organization (difficult) here. Do you see the nonsense?niwrad
July 5, 2013
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Sewell’s argument basically boils down to two statements: 1)Natural forces do not do things that are macroscopically describable that are extremely improbable from the microscopic point of view. 2)Statement 1 holds whether a system is isolated or open; when it is open, you just have to also consider what is entering or leaving the system when deciding what is or is not extremely improbable. Statement 1 derives from two sources: the principle that particles obey the four fundamental forces, and the idea that, of all the microstates equally likely given the constraints of the four fundamental forces, macrostates with more microstates are more probable. For example, when only diffusion is operative, all positions within the volume are equally likely, so a uniform distribution is the most probable macrostate. A macrostate with few microstates will be achieved only if the four fundamental forces make that microstate not improbable – for example, a magnet moves magnetic particles initially uniformly distributed in a volume all to one side of the volume. Statement 2 derives from logic and common sense, although he also proves it analytically for the simple case of diffusion. The energy formulations of the Second Law are related to the concept of microstates and macrostates. From University Physics, continuing the quotation from my earlier post:
The relationship between entropy and the number of microscopic states gives us new insight into the entropy statement of the second law of thermodynamics, that the entropy of a closed system can never decrease. From Eq. 18-22 (S=k lnw) this means that a closed system can never spontaneously undergo a process that decreases the number of possible microscopic states.
Classical and Modern Physics gives three formulations:
1. In an isolated system, thermal entropy cannot decrease. 2. In an isolated system, the direction of spontaneous change is from order to disorder. 3. In an isolated system, the direction of spontaneous change is from an arrangement of lesser probability to an arrangement of greater probability.
Thus, I see no reason that it is not fair to say that Sewell’s argument is based on at least “the underlying principle behind the Second Law.” In any event, Asimov, Styer, and Bunn certainly aren’t just talking about energy, and Sewell is responding to them on their terms. Just like the question of whether ID is “science” ultimately just depends on your definition of “science” and is irrelevant to its truthfulness, debating whether Sewell’s argument is based on what you consider the “Second Law” is an irrelevant distraction to its truthfulness. If you want to define the “Second Law” to exclude anything not explicitly about energy, and dismiss the countless textbooks and journal papers that use a broader definition as “confused”, fine. If you prefer, assume he is just using logic and probability, not the “Second Law.” Either way, if the two statements I listed at the beginning of this post are true, it refutes the compensation argument. Does anyone seriously dispute that improbable events cannot be made more probable by something causally unrelated to those events happening which, if reversed, would be even more improbable?CS3
July 5, 2013
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KS, OK, my mistake, I thought the comment about me finally realizing I was wrong had been made by you. No wonder I couldn't find it this morning.
However, “I’m right but I’m too busy to explain why” isn’t believable.
OK, you are right. If I thought there was one chance in a million of changing your mind I could probably find the time to continue responding for a while, but don't want to spend time on an impossible mission. Anyone who can believe that 4 fundamental, unintelligent forces of physics alone can rearrange atoms into Apple Ipods will not be impressed by any other arguments I make.Granville Sewell
July 5, 2013
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Granville, Your defenses of "X-entropy" don't succeed. In Carnap's example, he is not claiming that there is an "O-16 entropy" and a "O-18 entropy", as you are. He is saying that when you measure the thermodynamic entropy, you get a different value depending on whether your experiment distinguishes the isotopes. Regarding your second defense, the very fact that X-entropies are not independent (as you concede) is why your attempted refutation of the compensation argument fails. In your paper, you argue that
Importing thermal order into a system may make the temperature distribution less random, and importing carbon order may make the carbon distribution less random, but neither makes the formation of computers more probable.
Here you repeat the error of thinking that an assembled computer necessarily has less entropy than its unassembled parts, but that's not my point, so let's set it aside. If the X-entropies are not independent, as you admit, then you don't have to import "carbon order" to reduce the "carbon entropy". This should be obvious. Suppose I have a gaseous mixture of oxygen and carbon dioxide that I wish to separate. I set up a chiller and cool the mixture until the carbon dioxide solidifies into dry ice. The "oxygen entropy" has decreased, as has the "carbon dioxide entropy". Now suppose I run this apparatus using solar cells. The incoming sunlight doesn't contain "oxygen order" or "carbon dioxide order", yet I have managed to decrease both the "oxygen entropy" and the "carbon dioxide entropy". That is, the compensation argument works just fine even in terms of your bogus "X-entropy" concept.keiths
July 5, 2013
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Niwrad:
Elizabeth B Liddle All your examples of “self-adjusting/self-constructing systems” are trivial natural phenomena where sort of feedback is at work. Nothing to do with real CSI machinery able to self-adjust or self-construct itself or some of its CSI parts.
Yes, of course they are natural phenomena where some sort of feedback is at work. Feedback is the key to homeostasis. And whether they are “trivial” or not is scarcely the point. Biology is chock full of feedback homeostatic mechanisms, but I assumed you meant some non-biological example. As for CSI, that isn’t what you asked for, and I am not going to give you an example because I think CSI is a circular concept.
“Living things self construct of course.” Self-construction or self-organization are dreams of evolutionists. Not the least CSI system did or does that.
Why did you snip my sentence there? I said: “Again, living things self construct of course, but what about crystals? Or sand dunes?” Do they not “self construct”? If not, who constructs them?
All we are saying is that Granville’s assertion that if evolution were true, the 2nd Law would have been violated, is false.” But of course Prof. Sewell is right, if evolution were true the 2nd law would have been violated. Analogy: a general orders that all soldiers in the universe go right. All the armies on the Earth go left. Don’t you say the command has been violated?
And my argument is that Sewell’s assertion is incorrect. The 2nd Law does not forbid local decreases in entropy, gained at the cost of increased entropy in the surroundings, which is all biological organisms represent, and no more than evolution is posited to do. The world abounds with both living and non-living instances of local decreases of entropy. Why should we think that evolutionary processes are anything other than another example?
However I like you when at the question: “Have you ever seen a system that breaks down? Yes, countless times, every day.” You admit: “Yes indeed. But nobody is arguing that the 2nd Law is false.” Ah, sounds a progress by you. Finally you recognize the 2nd Law has to do with things breaking down. Sometimes this is the first step to abandon evolutionism. A friend of mine did so. Something tells me that, if you continues staying with us at UD, some day you will pass to the ID side. Welcome in advance.
Of course the 2nd Law is true, and of course it says that entropy tends to increase overall. But that doesn’t mean that nothing can ever decrease in entropy, for example, repair itself. We know it can, and when it does, the 2nd Law is not violated.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 5, 2013
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Granville,
In an earlier comment, KS, you said “even Granville seems to realize now, to his credit, that his paper is bad” or something like this, I can’t find the comment now, maybe you removed this.
That's because Lizzie said it, not me:
It must be clear to pretty well everyone now that his argument is a mess (it seems also to becoming clear to Granville, which is to his credit).
Granville:
But the fact that you can outlast me doesn’t mean I am conceding that I am wrong. I just don’t have to time to answer criticism after criticism, for days on end, that are already addressed in my papers.
If you feel you've already answered a criticism, just point us to your answer (for example, "See footnote 7.") You don't have to paraphrase your answer or repeat it. However, "I'm right but I'm too busy to explain why" isn't believable.keiths
July 5, 2013
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"Sure. Or chemical reactions that use the same energy. You may disagree that this is possible, but it’s not the 2nd Law that prevents it." Chemical reactions tend to the equilibrium, life tends to a non equilibrated system. albedo effect, crystals, dunas nuclear reactions all tend to the equilibrium. To avoid the tendency to the equilibrium you need not energy but "work". And to do work you need a machine. Life forms are machines that avoid the equilibrium.Chesterton
July 5, 2013
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KS
Think of a mixture of gaseous nitrogen, helium, and radon. To any physicist, there would be a single entropy associated with the mixture. To Granville, there are at least four entropies and four applicable second laws! The nitrogen entropy could be high while the heat entropy is low, and the other two are who knows what. Each of the four follows its own version of the second law.
Footnote 1 in my Bio-Complexity paper contains a quote from "Two Essays on Entropy," by R. Carnap, Univ. California Press 1977:
There are many thermodynamic entropies, corresponding to different degrees of experimental discrimination and different choices of parameters. For example, there will be an increase in entropy by mixing samples of O-16 and O-18 only if isotopes are experimentally distinguished.
And from the last paragraph of section 3 of my paper:
Bob Lloyd's primary criticism [Mathematical Intelligencer piece written to rebut my "unpublished" AML paper!] of my approach was that my "X-entropies" (e.g."chromium entropy") are not always independent of each other. He showed that in certain experiments in liquids, thermal entropy changes can cause changes in the other X-entropies. Therefore, he concluded, "the separation of total entropy into different entropies...is invalid." He wrote that the idea that my X-entropies are always independent of each other was "central to all of the versions of his argument." Actually, I never claimed that: in scenarios A and B, using the standard models for diffusion and heat conduction, and assuming nothing else is going on, the thermal and chromium entropies are independent, and then statement 1b nicely illustrates the general statement 2b (though I'm not sure a tautology needs illustrating). But even in solids, the different X-entropies can affect each other under more general assumptions. Simple definitions of entropy are only useful in simple contexts...
In an earlier comment, KS, you said "even Granville seems to realize now, to his credit, that his paper is bad" or something like this, I can't find the comment now, maybe you removed this. But the fact that you can outlast me doesn't mean I am conceding that I am wrong. I just don't have to time to answer criticism after criticism, for days on end, that are already addressed in my papers.Granville Sewell
July 5, 2013
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Elizabeth B Liddle All your examples of "self-adjusting/self-constructing systems" are trivial natural phenomena where sort of feedback is at work. Nothing to do with real CSI machinery able to self-adjust or self-construct itself or some of its CSI parts.
"Living things self construct of course."
Self-construction or self-organization are dreams of evolutionists. Not the least CSI system did or does that.
"All we are saying is that Granville’s assertion that if evolution were true, the 2nd Law would have been violated, is false."
But of course Prof. Sewell is right, if evolution were true the 2nd law would have been violated. Analogy: a general orders that all soldiers in the universe go right. All the armies on the Earth go left. Don't you say the command has been violated? However I like you when at the question: "Have you ever seen a system that breaks down? Yes, countless times, every day." You admit:
"Yes indeed. But nobody is arguing that the 2nd Law is false."
Ah, sounds a progress by you. Finally you recognize the 2nd Law has to do with things breaking down. Sometimes this is the first step to abandon evolutionism. A friend of mine did so. Something tells me that, if you continues staying with us at UD, some day you will pass to the ID side. Welcome in advance. :)niwrad
July 5, 2013
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I'd like to thank everyone for this thread. It has been very informative to me. As a lurker I did not understand the argument from the second law and it sounded as if the critics had a slam dunk objection against it. Now I get it and although I don't think that it will convince folks like Keiths or Elizabeth It seems to me to be a sound argument that is not effectively countered by talking about "compensation" from the sun. thanks againfifthmonarchyman
July 5, 2013
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