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Whose side are you on, Professor Coyne? What Anatole France really said about miracles

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Here’s a question for skeptics. Is there any evidence that would convince you that the laws of Nature can be suspended, and that miracles do indeed occur?

Interestingly, modern-day skeptics are divided on this issue. Professor P. Z. Myers and Dr. Michael Shermer say that nothing would convince them; while Professor Jerry Coyne and Professor Sean Carroll say that if the evidence were good enough, they would provisionally accept the reality of the supernatural. (See here and here for a round-up of their views.)

So I was surprised when Professor Jerry Coyne, in a recent post on the works of the great agnostic Robert Ingersoll (pictured above left), approvingly quoted a passage from his 1872 essay, The Gods, in which he declared that the occurrence of a miracle today would demonstrate the existence of a supernatural Deity, and then followed up with a quote from another great skeptic, Anatole France (pictured above right), whose position on the matter was precisely the opposite of Ingersoll’s!

Ingersoll: a skeptic, but an open-minded one

Here is a relevant excerpt from Ingersoll’s essay, The Gods. (N.B. All bold emphases in this post are mine – VJT):

There is but one way to demonstrate the existence of a power independent of and superior to nature, and that is by breaking, if only for one moment, the continuity of cause and effect. Pluck from the endless chain of existence one little link; stop for one instant the grand procession and you have shown beyond all contradiction that nature has a master…

The church wishes us to believe. Let the church, or one of its intellectual saints, perform a miracle, and we will believe. We are told that nature has a superior. Let this superior, for one single instant, control nature, and we will admit the truth of your assertions…

We want one fact. We beg at the doors of your churches for just one little fact. We pass our hats along your pews and under your pulpits and implore you for just one fact. We know all about your mouldy wonders and your stale miracles. We want a ‘this year’s fact’. We ask only one. Give us one fact for charity. Your miracles are too ancient. The witnesses have been dead for nearly two thousand years. Their reputation for “truth and veracity” in the neighborhood where they resided is wholly unknown to us. Give us a new miracle, and substantiate it by witnesses who still have the cheerful habit of living in this world…

We demand a new miracle, and we demand it now. Let the church furnish at least one, or forever after hold her peace.

Ingersoll was a skeptic, but at least he was an honest man, open to new evidence. Professor Coyne then went on to gleefully quote a short passage from Anatole France’s essay, Miracle, published in his 1895 anthology, Le Jardin d’Epicure (The Garden of Epicurus). In the essay, the author described a recent visit that he had made to Lourdes. His companion, upon noticing the discarded wooden crutches on display at the grotto, pointed them out and whispered in his ear:

“One single wooden leg would have been much more convincing.”

Anatole France’s 1895 essay, Miracle: a classic example of closed-minded dogmatism

The above translation is Coyne’s; he tells us that he had great difficulty in tracking down the original quote. (There are dozens of sites on the Internet where he could have found it, and the essay can also be found in the late Christopher Hitchens’ work, The Portable Atheist.) But what Coyne omitted to mention was that Anatole France then went on to add that no amount of evidence would convince him of the occurrence of a miracle, because of his prior commitment to naturalism. Below, I shall reproduce in its entirety France’s 1895 essay, Miracle, in order to give the reader an opportunity to see how philosophical rigidity can close the mind of a skeptic:

We should not say: There are no miracles, because none has ever been proved. This always leaves it open to the Orthodox to appeal to a more complete state of knowledge. The truth is, no miracle can, from the nature of things, be stated as an established fact; to do so will always involve drawing a premature conclusion. A deeply rooted instinct tells us that whatever Nature embraces in her bosom is conformable to her laws, either known or occult. But, even supposing he could silence this presentiment of his, a man will never be in a position to say: “Such and such a fact is outside the limits of Nature.” Our researches will never carry us as far as that. Moreover, if it is of the essence of miracle to elude scientific investigation, every dogma attesting it invokes an intangible witness that is bound to evade our grasp to the end of time.

This notion of miracles belongs to the infancy of the mind, and cannot continue when once the human intellect has begun to frame a systematic picture of the universe. The wise Greeks could not tolerate the idea. Hippocrates said, speaking of epilepsy: “This malady is called divine; but all diseases are divine, and all alike come from the gods.” There he spoke as a natural philosopher. Human reason is less assured of itself nowadays. What annoys me above all is when people say: “We do not believe in miracles, because no miracle is proved.”

Happening to be at Lourdes, in August, I paid a visit to the grotto where innumerable crutches were hung up in token of a cure. My companion pointed to these trophies of the sick-room and hospital ward, and whispered in my ear:

“One wooden leg would be more to the point.”

It was the word of a man of sense; but speaking philosophically, the wooden leg would be no whit more convincing than a crutch. If an observer of a genuinely scientific spirit were called upon to verify that a man’s leg, after amputation, had suddenly grown again as before, whether in a miraculous pool or anywhere else, he would not cry: “Lo! a miracle.” He would say this:

An observation, so far unique, points us to a presumption that under conditions still undetermined, the tissues of a human leg have the property of reorganizing themselves like a crab’s or lobster’s claws and a lizard’s tail, but much more rapidly. Here we have a fact of nature in apparent contradiction with several other facts of the like sort. The contradiction arises from our ignorance, and clearly shows that the science of animal physiology must be reconstituted, or to speak more accurately, that it has never yet been properly constituted. It is little more than two hundred years since we first had any true conception of the circulation of the blood. It is barely a century since we learned what is implied in the act of breathing.”

I admit it would need some boldness to speak in this strain. But the man of science should be above surprise. At the same time, let us hasten to add, none of them have ever been put to such a proof, and nothing leads us to apprehend any such prodigy. Such miraculous cures as the doctors have been able to verify to their satisfaction are all quite in accordance with physiology. So far the tombs of the Saints, the magic springs and sacred grottoes, have never proved efficient except in the case of patients suffering from complaints either curable or susceptible of instantaneous relief. But were a dead man revived before our eyes, no miracle would be proved, unless we knew what life is and death is, and that we shall never know.

What is the definition of a miracle? We are told: a breach of the laws of nature. But we do not know the laws of nature; how, then, are we to know whether a particular fact is a breach of these laws or no?

“But surely we know some of these laws?”

“True, we have arrived at some idea of the correlation of things. But failing as we do to grasp all the natural laws, we can be sure of none, seeing they are mutually interdependent.”

“Still, we might verify our miracle in those series of correlations we have arrived at.”

“No, not with anything like philosophical certainty. Besides, it is precisely those series we regard as the most stable and best determined which suffer least interruption from the miraculous. Miracles never, for instance, try to interfere with the mechanism of the heavens. They never disturb the course of the celestial bodies, and never advance or retard the calculated date of an eclipse. On the contrary, their favourite field is the obscure domain of pathology as concerned with the internal organs, and above all nervous diseases. However, we must not confound a question of fact with one of principle. In principle the man of science is ill-qualified to verify a supernatural occurrence. Such verification presupposes a complete and final knowledge of nature, which he does not possess, and will never possess, and which no one ever did possess in this world. It is just because I would not believe our most skilful oculists as to the miraculous healing of a blind man that a fortiori I do not believe Matthew or Mark either, who were not oculists. A miracle is by definition unidentifiable and unknowable.”

The savants cannot in any case certify that a fact is in contradiction with the universal order that is with the unknown ordinance of the Divinity. Even God could do this only by formulating a pettifogging distinction between the general manifestations and the particular manifestations of His activity, acknowledging that from time to time He gives little timid finishing touches to His work and condescending to the humiliating admission that the cumbersome machine He has set agoing needs every hour or so, to get it to jog along indifferently well, a push from its contriver’s hand.

Science is well fitted, on the other hand, to bring back under the data of positive knowledge facts which seemed to be outside its limits. It often succeeds very happily in accounting by physical causes for phenomena that had for centuries been regarded as supernatural. Cures of spinal affections were confidently believed to have taken place at the tomb of the Deacon Paris at Saint-Medard and in other holy places. These cures have ceased to surprise since it has become known that hysteria occasionally simulates the symptoms associated with lesions of the spinal marrow.

The appearance of a new star to the mysterious personages whom the Gospels call the “Wise Men of the East” (I assume the incident to be authentic historically) was undoubtedly a miracle to the Astrologers of the Middle Ages, who believed that the firmament, in which the stars were stuck like nails, was subject to no change whatever. But, whether real or supposed, the star of the Magi has lost its miraculous character for us, who know that the heavens are incessantly perturbed by the birth and death of worlds, and who in 1866 saw a star suddenly blaze forth in the Corona Borealis, shine for a month, and then go out.

It did not proclaim the Messiah; all it announced was that, at an infinitely remote distance from our earth, an appalling conflagration was burning up a world in a few days, — or rather had burnt it up long ago, for the ray that brought us the news of this disaster in the heavens had been on the road for five hundred years and possibly longer.

The miracle of Bolsena is familiar to everybody, immortalized as it is in one of Raphael’s Stanze at the Vatican. A skeptical priest was celebrating Mass; the host, when he broke it for Communion, appeared bespattered with blood. It is only within the last ten years that the Academies of Science would not have been sorely puzzled to explain so strange a phenomenon. Now no one thinks of denying it, since the discovery of a microscopic fungus, the spores of which, having germinated in the meal or dough, offer the appearance of clotted blood. The naturalist who first found it, rightly thinking that here were the red blotches on the wafer in the Bolsena miracle, named the fungus micrococcus prodigiosus.

There will always be a fungus, a star, or a disease that human science does not know of; and for this reason it must always behoove the philosopher, in the name of the undying ignorance of man, to deny every miracle and say of the most startling wonders, — the host of Bolsena, the star in the East, the cure of the paralytic and the like: Either it is not, or it is; and if it is, it is part of nature and therefore natural.

Seven flawed arguments against miracles

Anatole France’s essay on miracles is riddled with flaws. The fallacy in the final paragraph, where he argues that whatever exists, must be natural, should be evident to readers, without the need for further comment.

The second great fallacy in France’s reasoning regarding miracles is that he neglects probability, and frames the issue only in terms of certitude. Even if we grant his point that science can never know all the laws of Nature and can therefore never show that an event is miraculous, the fact remains that certain events are astronomically improbable – indeed, so improbable that the only prudent conclusion to draw, if one observed them, would be that they are miraculous. A tornado blowing a house down does not strike us as remarkable, but rewind the tape, and I think that even hardened skeptics would agree that here we have a sequence of events which is so improbable that we would have to call it a miracle.

Third, if Anatole France’s argument that scientists can never know all the laws of Nature were correct, then by the same token, they could never know for sure that the universe is a closed system – in which case, France’s a priori argument against the possibility of miracles collapses.

Fourth, it might be urged by modern-day skeptics that the discovery of a Grand Unified Theory of Everything, which some physicists dream of, would allow scientists to ascertain which events are ruled out by the laws of Nature, as it would yield a complete list of those laws. But if it did that, then the scientifically verified occurrence of an event ruled out by the laws of Nature would have to count as evidence for the supernatural.

Fifth, the tired old Humean objection that no matter how strong the evidence for a miracle may be, it is always more likely that the witnesses to that miracle are either lying or mistaken, rests upon a mathematical flaw, which was pointed out long ago by Charles Babbage, in his Ninth Bridgewater Treatise (2nd ed., London, 1838; digitized for the Victorian Web by Dr. John van Wyhe and proof-read by George P. Landow). I’d like to quote here from David Coppedge’s masterly online work, THE WORLD’S GREATEST CREATION SCIENTISTS From Y1K to Y2K:

Babbage’s Ninth Bridgewater Treatise (hereafter, NBT) is available online and makes for interesting reading … Most interesting is his rebuttal to the arguments of David Hume (1711-1776), the skeptical philosopher who had created quite a stir with his seemingly persuasive argument against miracles. Again, it was based on the Newtonian obsession with natural law. Hume argued that it is more probable that those claiming to have seen a miracle were either lying or deceived than that the regularity of nature had been violated. Babbage knew a lot more about the mathematics of probability than Hume. In chapter X of NBT, Babbage applied numerical values to the question, chiding Hume for his subjectivity. A quick calculation proves that if there were 99 reliable witnesses to the resurrection of a man from the dead (and I Corinthians 15:6 claims there were over 500), the probability is a trillion to one against the falsehood of their testimony, compared to the probability of one in 200 billion against anyone in the history of the world having been raised from the dead. This simple calculation shows it takes more faith to deny the miracle than to accept the testimony of eyewitnesses. Thus Babbage renders specious Hume’s assertion that the improbability of a miracle could never be overcome by any number of witnesses. Apply the math, and the results do not support that claim, Babbage says: “From this it results that, provided we assume that independent witnesses can be found of whose testimony it can be stated that it is more probable that it is true than that it is false, we can always assign a number of witnesses which will, according to Hume’s argument, prove the truth of a miracle. (Italics in original.) Babbage takes his conquest of Hume so far that by Chapter XIII, he argues that “It is more probable that any law, at the knowledge of which we have arrived by observation, shall be subject to one of those violations which, according to Hume’s definition, constitutes a miracle, than that it should not be so subjected.”

Sixth, Anatole France’s snide put-down of the miracles worked by a Deity as being tantamount to “little timid finishing touches to His work,” which are required because “the cumbersome machine He has set agoing needs every hour or so, to get it to jog along indifferently well, a push from its contriver’s hand,” was also convincingly rebutted by Charles Babbage. To quote Coppedge again:

The heart of NBT [the Ninth Bridgewater Treatise – VJT] is an argument that miracles do not violate natural law, using Babbage’s own concept of a calculating machine. This forms an engaging thought experiment. With his own Analytical Engine undoubtedly fresh on his mind, he asks the reader to imagine a calculating engine that might show very predictable regularity, even for billions of iterations, such as a machine that counts integers. Then imagine it suddenly jumps to another natural law, which again repeats itself with predictable regularity. If the designer of the engine had made it that way on purpose, it would show even more intelligent design than if it only continued counting integers forever. Babbage extends his argument through several permutations, to the point where he convinces the reader that it takes more intelligence to design a general purpose calculating engine that can operate reliably according to multiple natural laws, each known to the designer, each predictable by the designer, than to design a simple machine that mindlessly clicks away according to a single law. So here we see Babbage employing his own specialty – the general-purpose calculating machine – to argue his point. He concluded, therefore, as he reiterated in his later autobiographical work Passages from the Life of a Philosopher (1864), miracles are not “the breach of established laws, but… indicate the existence of far higher laws.”

Babbage’s suggestion is an intriguing one, which invites the question: how exactly should a miracle be defined? Should it be defined as the violation of the laws of Nature, or should it be simply be defined as an event at variance with lower-level laws, which support the regular order of things? Perhaps the latter definition would be more fruitful. And that brigs me to a seventh flaw in France’s argument against miracles: even if he were right in saying that whatever happens, happens in accordance with some law of Nature, what he fails to realize is that this argument against supernaturalism only holds if scientific reductionism is true. In other words, France is assuming that there are no higher-level laws of Nature (perhaps known only to the Author of Nature) which govern rare and singular occurrences, and which cannot be derived from the lower-level laws which support the regular order of Nature. France has no response to the question: what is so absurd about the concept of a singular law, or more generally, a law which does not supervene upon lower-level laws?

But rather than waste time arguing about the definition of a miracle, I would argue that the more profound question is: what kind of evidence warrants belief in an Intelligent Designer of Nature, and what kind of evidence should lead us to conclude that this Designer is a supernatural Being?

I might add that Anatole France never bothered to check out the evidence for Eucharistic miracles (see also here), or for God healing amputees (see here). I would invite readers to draw their own conclusions on those matters. While I can certainly understand and respect the attitude of a skeptic who says that the available evidence for miracles is not strong enough to sway his/her mind, I have to say that a skeptic like Anatole France, who refuses to even consider the possibility that he/she may be wrong strikes very much like the Aristotelian philosophers of the 17th century who, according to popular legend, refused even to look through Galileo’s telescope, because they feared that it might falsify their theories. (By the way, that story is apocryphal – see here.)

A question for Professor Coyne: whose side are you on?

I would now like to ask Professor Coyne and my skeptical readers: whose side are you on? Do you side with Ingersoll, who would be convinced were he to witness a modern miracle? Or do you side with Anatole France, who stoutly maintains that nothing would convince him of the occurrence of a miracle? You cannot have it both ways.

Until now, Professor Coyne has always declared himself to be open to the possibility of a miracle. Science, he believes, could in principle supply strong evidence (but not proof) of the miraculous. In a November 8, 2010 post entitled, Shermer and I disagree on the supernatural, Coyne wrote:

I don’t see science as committed to methodological naturalism — at least in terms of accepting only natural explanations for natural phenomena. Science is committed to a) finding out what phenomena are real, and b) coming up with the best explanations for those real, natural phenomena. Methodological naturalism is not an a priori commitment, but a strategy that has repeatedly worked in science, and so has been adopted by all working scientists.

As for me, I am committed only to finding out what phenomena really occur, and then making a hypothesis to explain them, whether that hypothesis be “supernatural” or not. In principle we could demonstrate ESP or telekinesis, both of which violate the laws of physics, and my conclusion would be, for the former, “some people can read the thoughts of others at a distance, though I don’t know how that is done.” If only Christian prayers were answered, and Jesus appeared doing miracles left and right, documented by all kinds of evidence, I would say, “It looks as if some entity that comports with the Christian God is working ‘miracles,’ though I don’t know how she does it.” ….

Science can never prove anything. If you accept that, then we can never absolutely prove the absence of a “supernatural” god — or the presence of one. We can only find evidence that supports or weakens a given hypothesis. There is not an iota of evidence for The God Hypothesis, but I claim that there could be.

Sean Carroll on the supernatural

Professor Coyne is not alone in his rejection of dogmatic methodological naturalism. The atheist physicist Sean Carroll has candidly acknowledged that there is a possibility, in principle, that science could one day decide in favor of the miraculous, in an essay refreshingly free from dogmatism, entitled, Is Dark Matter Supernatural? (Discover magazine, November 1, 2010):

Let’s imagine that there really were some sort of miraculous component to existence, some influence that directly affected the world we observe without being subject to rigid laws of behavior. How would science deal with that?

The right way to answer this question is to ask how actual scientists would deal with that, rather than decide ahead of time what is and is not “science” and then apply this definition to some new phenomenon. If life on Earth included regular visits from angels, or miraculous cures as the result of prayer, scientists would certainly try to understand it using the best ideas they could come up with. To be sure, their initial ideas would involve perfectly “natural” explanations of the traditional scientific type. And if the examples of purported supernatural activity were sufficiently rare and poorly documented (as they are in the real world), the scientists would provisionally conclude that there was insufficient reason to abandon the laws of nature. What we think of as lawful, “natural” explanations are certainly simpler — they involve fewer metaphysical categories, and better-behaved ones at that — and correspondingly preferred, all things being equal, to supernatural ones.

But that doesn’t mean that the evidence could never, in principle, be sufficient to overcome this preference. Theory choice in science is typically a matter of competing comprehensive pictures, not dealing with phenomena on a case-by-case basis. There is a presumption in favor of simple explanation; but there is also a presumption in favor of fitting the data. In the real world, there is data favoring the claim that Jesus rose from the dead: it takes the form of the written descriptions in the New Testament. Most scientists judge that this data is simply unreliable or mistaken, because it’s easier to imagine that non-eyewitness-testimony in two-thousand-year-old documents is inaccurate that to imagine that there was a dramatic violation of the laws of physics and biology. But if this kind of thing happened all the time, the situation would be dramatically different; the burden on the “unreliable data” explanation would become harder and harder to bear, until the preference would be in favor of a theory where people really did rise from the dead.

There is a perfectly good question of whether science could ever conclude that the best explanation was one that involved fundamentally lawless behavior. The data in favor of such a conclusion would have to be extremely compelling, for the reasons previously stated, but I don’t see why it couldn’t happen. Science is very pragmatic, as the origin of quantum mechanics vividly demonstrates. Over the course of a couple decades, physicists (as a community) were willing to give up on extremely cherished ideas of the clockwork predictability inherent in the Newtonian universe, and agree on the probabilistic nature of quantum mechanics. That’s what fit the data. Similarly, if the best explanation scientists could come up with for some set of observations necessarily involved a lawless supernatural component, that’s what they would do. There would inevitably be some latter-day curmudgeonly Einstein figure who refused to believe that God ignored the rules of his own game of dice, but the debate would hinge on what provided the best explanation, not a priori claims about what is and is not science.

There is much wisdom in Carroll’s words. Science cannot let itself be imprisoned by metaphysical dogmas.

More about Ingersoll: what did he believe on God and a hereafter, and what drove him to attack religion?

Before I finish, I’d like to add one more quote from Robert Ingersoll’s essay, The Gods. It’s a real pity that Professor Coyne didn’t quote this passage, as it illustrates perfectly the misplaced confidence of the skeptic:

A new world has been discovered by the microscope; everywhere has been found the infinite; in every direction man has investigated and explored and nowhere, in earth or stars, has been found the footstep of any being superior to or independent of nature. Nowhere has been discovered the slightest evidence of any interference from without.

Famous last words! Abiogenesis, anyone? And what about the fine-tuning argument? Ingersoll was at least an honest doubter. I wonder what conclusions he would draw if he were alive today.

But even Ingersoll was, it seems, the prisoner of his age. Although he expressed a willingness, in principle, to accept evidence of miracles, apparently he found the idea of a genuinely supernatural Being inconceivable. In an interview with The Dispatch (Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, December 11, 1880), Ingersoll declared [scroll down to page 57]:

There may be a God for all I know. There may be thousands of them. But the idea of an independent Being outside and independent of Nature is inconceivable. I do not know of any word or doctrine that would explain my views upon that subject. I suppose Pantheism is as near as I could go. I believe in the eternity of matter and thee eternity of intelligence, but I do not believe in any being outside of Nature. I do not believe in any personal Deity. I do not believe in any aristocracy of the air. I know nothing about origin or destiny…. I believe that in all matter, in some way, there is what we call force; that one of the forms of force is intelligence.

Regarding immortality, however, Ingersoll was more open-minded. In the same interview, he acknowledged that there might be an afterlife, and in a revealing passage, he admitted that what drove him in his crusade against religion was one thing and one thing only: the doctrine, which he found deeply abhorrent, of an everlasting Hell to which the majority of human beings would be consigned:

My opinion of immortality is this:
First.- I live, and that of itself is infinitely wonderful. Second.- There was a time when I was not, and after I was not, I was. Third.- Now that I am, I may be again; and it is no more wonderful that I may be again, if I have been, than that I am, having once been nothing. If the churches advocated immortality, if they advocated eternal justice, if they said that man would be rewarded and punished according to deeds; if they admitted that at some time in eternity there would be an opportunity to lift up souls, and that throughout all the ages the angels of progress and virtue, would beckon the fallen upward; and that some time, and no matter how far away they might put off the time, all the children of men would be reasonably happy, I never would say a solitary word against the church, but just as long as they preach that the majority of mankind will suffer eternal pain, just so long I shall oppose them; that is to say, as long as I live.

I wonder what Ingersoll would make of the late Cardinal Avery Dulles’ essay, The Population of Hell (First Things, May 2003), if he were alive in the 21st century. And I wonder if Professor Coyne will be brave enough to print the foregoing passage from Ingersoll, in his weekly series over at Why Evolution Is True on the great skeptic’s views. We shall see.

Comments
I was originally a skeptic of the shroud but after 4 years of research I true believe that it’s the burial cloth of our lord and savior and bares the imprint of his resurrection.
Hallelujah for skepticism, in the name of our lord and savior!LarTanner
January 15, 2013
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Well, I would say I'm more neutral than you, BA. I have no particular investment in whatever anyone discovers about the shroud--or doesn't. Nevertheless, the current state of research seems to be that no one knows how the image on the shroud got there, yet medieval artistry remains the leading explanation. Joe Nickell has a write-up on the 2011 Di Lazzaro findings:
As reported in the UK Independent of December 21, 2011, scientists working for the Italian government have claimed to find evidence that the image of Jesus crucified appearing on the notorious Shroud of Turin was not produced by a medieval artist but instead was likely caused by a supernatural event. Unfortunately, their work violates so many principles of science and logic as to raise serious questions about their motivation. It recalled to mind a cartoon that circulated many years ago, depicting a shroudologist at a blackboard on which were chalked several lines of mathematical calculations, followed by the phrase, "and then a miracle occurs!" Now Professor Paolo Di Lazzaro—lead researcher for the team from the National Agency for New Technologies, Energy, and Sustainable Economic Development (ENEA)—embodies that cartoon image.
LarTanner
January 15, 2013
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Liar tanner, as opposed to someone who hasn't done his shroud research like you or JW. ;) Solid Research like Stephen Jones has done on his blog http://theshroudofturin.blogspot.com/?m=1 And on his archived website http://members.iinet.net.au/~sejones/shroudot.html This is a good starting place. If your an atheist , please stay away from the hundreds of peer reviewed shroud research papers as it would be hazardous for your emotionally based worldview.wallstreeter43
January 15, 2013
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JWtruthinlove, it's apparent that you have done absolutely no research at all on the shroud . If you did then you would realize that Walter Mccrone never got any of his findings to pass peer review, and his opinions of the blood being paint were just that, his opinions. If you had bothered to check the peer reviewed work of doctor Adler who is a blood chemist , who did all of the advanced chemical analysis tests on the blood you would have known that what they found was that the blood stains were blood, this is a fact supported by peer reviewed science, not the opinion of one man . No other scientists saw what Mccrone saw simply because what he saw wasn't there. Mccrone couldn't get one paper passed through peer review because his work wasn't real science. The on,y place they were published were in a non peer reviewed skeptic magazine, and also his magazine of which he is owner, editor and chief lol. Moreover the skeptic site you found probably after a whole 1 minute of research says that there was no mention of the shroud before 1352, which is simply ignorant because the Hungarian pray codex which shows an illustration of what is clearly the shroud of turin with the 4 poker burn holes is from 1192 to 1195, and that alone debunks that skeptic sites history of the shroud, not counting that the blood stains on the shroud are a perfect match with the blood stains on the sudarium of oveido, and the sudarium's history is undisputed going all the way back to 6th century. Forensic science tells us that shroud and sudarium covered that same body , but at a close time interval of between 45 minutes to an hour. If you read your history of the mandylion , or as it is also called, the image of eddessa, it was written about as being folded twice in fours, and that image's history goes back to the mid 500's ad, and it was also written that this image was kept in the cave of saint mark in Jerusalem until it was moved to eddessa in the 6th century. When professor Jackson of the sturp team did his sofisticated light raking test over the shroud he found the same exact fold marksthat when folded in this way came out exactly like the mandylion was folded in which only the head image was showing. If you had also taken the time to search the peer reviewed papers instead of looking through an unpeerreviewed skeptic site, you would have seen that professor Ray Rogers who was a chemist and senior fellow at the very prestigious Los alamos labs, you would have seen that his peer reviewed work published in thermochimica acta, a chemical journal completely invalidated the c14 testing done on the shroud, because Rogers showed from his chemical analysis that the piece tested by the c14 labs was from a much newer French or invisible reweave. Rogers also did a vanillin test on the c14 piece and found out that it tested positive for vanillin (which makes it much newer ), and then redid the test on strands taken from all the other areas of the shroud and no other part of the shroud tested positive for vanillin, meaning the shroud was much older then the c14 tests showed it to be, and in fact from the vanillin tests alone Rogers gave it a date of between 1300 to 3000 years old. There are many other evidences for the shroud being the burial shroud of our lord and savior, but this blog doesn't have enough pages to hold this info. Again, your post shows me that I haven't done any true research on the shroud. I was originally a skeptic of the shroud but after 4 years of research I true believe that it's the burial cloth of our lord and savior and bares the imprint of his resurrection. If your not afraid of the truth my friend, then u should really research the shroud like I have. Atheists are very afraid to do , but your not an atheist, so what's your excuse. God blesswallstreeter43
January 15, 2013
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As to Near Death Experiences being real, JWT quoted some unreferenced source as saying, among other things:
King Solomon’s description of death and its effects has no hints of an immortal soul surviving into some other form of conscious existence. The dead “are conscious of nothing at all.”
Okie Dokie JWT, I'll take your King Solomon and raise you a King of King and Lord Of Lords, i.e. Jesus:
Mark 12:26-27 Now about the dead rising--have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account of the bush, how God said to him, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!" Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."
bornagain77
January 15, 2013
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So you got LT backing you up JWT? HMMM, strange bedfellows! LT asks: "far from a unbiased interlocutor,,, As opposed to…?" Well it sure wouldn't be LT or yours truly would it now LT? I would say Raymond Rogers was as close to a unbiased researcher as one could hope for in his analysis of the Shroud (in fact I would say he was strongly weighted against the Shroud being real but not dogmatically so):
Shroud of Turin – Carbon 14 test proves false (with Raymond Rogers, lead chemist from the STURP project) – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxDdx6vxthE
Moreover, the hypothesis that the Shroud was painted by a forger, as McCrone dogmatically holds, was the first hypothesis that was tested for and falsified by the STURP team. Barry Schwartz, a Jewish man who was photographer on the STURP team, who took microscopic photographs of the shroud, and who is certainly not given to undo bias, is adamant that the image on the shroud, whatever it is, is certainly not the result of painting or dyes: Moreover this research came out a bit over a year ago trying to replicate the exact coloring of the threads of the Shroud:
Scientists say Turin Shroud is supernatural – December 2011 Excerpt: After years of work trying to replicate the colouring on the shroud, a similar image has been created by the scientists. However, they only managed the effect by scorching equivalent linen material with high-intensity ultra violet lasers, undermining the arguments of other research, they say, which claims the Turin Shroud is a medieval hoax. Such technology, say researchers from the National Agency for New Technologies, Energy and Sustainable Economic Development (Enea), was far beyond the capability of medieval forgers, whom most experts have credited with making the famous relic. “The results show that a short and intense burst of UV directional radiation can colour a linen cloth so as to reproduce many of the peculiar characteristics of the body image on the Shroud of Turin,” they said. And in case there was any doubt about the preternatural degree of energy needed to make such distinct marks, the Enea report spells it out: “This degree of power cannot be reproduced by any normal UV source built to date.” http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/scientists-say-turin-shroud-is-supernatural-6279512.html
further notes:
Journal of Imaging Science and Technology - Fanti, G. and Moroni, M. “Comparison of Luminance Between Face of Turin Shroud Man and Experimental Results.” 46: 142-154 (2002); All the photographs except that of the Edessa Mandylion show some 3D characteristics and the Shroud photographs, although disturbed by many defects, seem to correlate well with the sheet-face distance. http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=13657013 How Did The Image Form On The Shroud? - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4045581 "The shroud image is made from tiny fibres that are (each) 1/10th of a human hair. The picture elements are actually randomly distributed like the dots in your newspaper, photograph or magazine photograph. To do this you would need an incredibly accurate atomic laser. This technology does NOT exist (even to this day)." Kevin Moran - Optical Engineer Scientific hypotheses on the origin of the body image of the Shroud - 2010 Excerpt: for example, if we consider the density of radiation that we used to color a single square centimeter of linen, to reproduce the entire image of the Shroud with a single flash of light would require fourteen thousand lasers firing simultaneously each on a different area of linen. In other words, it would take a laser light source the size of an entire building. http://www.30giorni.it/articoli_id_22597_l3.htm "the closest science can come to explaining how the image of the Man in the Shroud got there is by comparing the situation to a controlled burst of high-intensity radiation similar to the Hiroshima bomb explosion which "printed" images of incinerated people on building walls." Frank Tribbe - Leading Scholar And Author On Shroud Research Q: Why can't the Shroud just be be a medieval painting? A: The image is also extremely faint, fading away completely if you get closer than about six feet, so it would have been like trying to paint an enormous canvas in invisible ink.
bornagain77
January 15, 2013
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far from a unbiased interlocutor
As opposed to...?LarTanner
January 15, 2013
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Excuse me JWTruthInLove, the Shroud is far from debunked, in fact when the site you reference featured the infamous McCrone as its lead off 'debunker', I know that for a fact that you have not considered this matter fairly because McCrone is far from a unbiased interlocutor in all this. "Walter McCrone claimed that he was "drummed out" of STURP for his disagreeing with the other scientists that he thought of as true believers. The truth of the matter was that he refused to accept STURP’s professional standards agreement. In his dreams he was a member of STURP." http://shroudstory.com/2011/09/23/more-on-mccrone/ As for you claiming that NDE's are 'demonic', well what really can be said in response to such a a priori bias? Certainly empirical evidence cannot stand against such reasoning! :) ,,, None-the-less, I hold that you are wrong in your bias.bornagain77
January 15, 2013
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@bornagain77: All the claims you have posted about the "shroud of turin" have been debunked: http://skepdic.com/shroud.html Now let's look at 2 Co 12:3-5
12:1-4—Who “was caught away into paradise”? Since the Bible does not speak of any other person who had such a vision and the passage follows Paul’s defense of his apostleship, he was probably relating his own experience. What the apostle envisioned was likely the spiritual paradise enjoyed by the Christian congregation in “the time of the end.”—Dan. 12:4.
A person whom Jehovah put in a trance was evidently absorbed in a state of deep concentration, though at least partially awake. (Compare Acts 10:9-16.) In the Bible the Greek word rendered “trance” (ek?sta·sis) means ‘a putting away or a displacement.’ It suggests the idea of throwing the mind out of its normal state. Thus, a person in a trance would be oblivious of his surroundings while being fully receptive to the vision. The apostle Paul was likely in such a trance when he was “caught away into paradise and heard unutterable words which it is not lawful for a man to speak.”—2 Corinthians 12:2-4. In contrast with those who transcribed dictated messages from God, Bible writers who received visions or dreams or who experienced trances often had some latitude to describe in their own words what they saw. Habakkuk was told: “Write down the vision, and set it out plainly upon tablets, in order that the one reading aloud from it may do so fluently.”—Habakkuk 2:2.
Third Heaven. At 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 the apostle Paul describes one who was “caught away . . . to the third heaven” and “into paradise.” Since there is no mention in the Scriptures of any other person having had such an experience, it seems likely that this was the apostle’s own experience. Whereas some have endeavored to relate Paul’s reference to the third heaven to the early rabbinic view that there were stages of heaven, even a total of “seven heavens,” this view finds no support in the Scriptures. As we have seen, the heavens are not referred to specifically as if divided into platforms or stages, but, rather, the context must be relied upon to determine whether reference is to the heavens within earth’s atmospheric expanse, the heavens of outer space, the spiritual heavens, or something else. It therefore appears that the reference to “the third heaven” indicates the superlative degree of the rapture in which this vision was seen. Note the way words and expressions are repeated three times at Isaiah 6:3; Ezekiel 21:27; John 21:15-17; Revelation 4:8, evidently for the purpose of expressing an intensification of the quality or idea.
JWTruthInLove
January 15, 2013
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as to:
Certainly the Bible leaves no room for considering near-death experiences as a prelude to life after death.
I beg to differ:
2 Corinthians 12:3-5 And I know that this man--whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows-- was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell. I will boast about a man like that, but I will not boast about myself, except about my weaknesses.
As to you questioning the antiquity of the Shroud:
Shroud of Turin - Carbon 14 test proves false (with Raymond Rogers, lead chemist from the STURP project) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxDdx6vxthE
The following is the main peer reviewed paper which has refuted the 1989 Carbon Dating:
Why The Carbon 14 Samples Are Invalid, Raymond Rogers per: Thermochimica Acta (Volume 425 pages 189-194, Los Alamos National Laboratory, University of California) Excerpt: Preliminary estimates of the kinetics constants for the loss of vanillin from lignin indicate a much older age for the cloth than the radiocarbon analyses. The radiocarbon sampling area is uniquely coated with a yellow–brown plant gum containing dye lakes. Pyrolysis-mass-spectrometry results from the sample area coupled with microscopic and microchemical observations prove that the radiocarbon sample was not part of the original cloth of the Shroud of Turin. The radiocarbon date was thus not valid for determining the true age of the shroud. The fact that vanillin can not be detected in the lignin on shroud fibers, Dead Sea scrolls linen, and other very old linens indicates that the shroud is quite old. A determination of the kinetics of vanillin loss suggests that the shroud is between 1300- and 3000-years old. Even allowing for errors in the measurements and assumptions about storage conditions, the cloth is unlikely to be as young as 840 years. http://www.ntskeptics.org/issues/shroud/shroudold.htm
Rogers passed away shortly after publishing this paper, but his work was ultimately verified by the Los Alamos National Laboratory:
Carbon Dating Of The Turin Shroud Completely Overturned by Scientific Peer Review Excerpt: Rogers also asked John Brown, a materials forensic expert from Georgia Tech to confirm his finding using different methods. Brown did so. He also concluded that the shroud had been mended with newer material. Since then, a team of nine scientists at Los Alamos has also confirmed Rogers work, also with different methods and procedures. Much of this new information has been recently published in Chemistry Today. http://shroudofturin.wordpress.com/2009/02/19/the-custodians-of-time/
This following is the Los Alamos National Laboratory report and video which completely confirms the Rogers' paper:
“Analytical Results on Thread Samples Taken from the Raes Sampling Area (Corner) of the Shroud Cloth” (Aug 2008) Excerpt: The age-dating process failed to recognize one of the first rules of analytical chemistry that any sample taken for characterization of an area or population must necessarily be representative of the whole. The part must be representative of the whole. Our analyses of the three thread samples taken from the Raes and C-14 sampling corner showed that this was not the case....... LANL’s work confirms the research published in Thermochimica Acta (Jan. 2005) by the late Raymond Rogers, a chemist who had studied actual C-14 samples and concluded the sample was not part of the original cloth possibly due to the area having been repaired. - Robert Villarreal - Los Alamos National Laboratory http://www.ohioshroudconference.com/ Shroud Of Turin Carbon Dating Overturned By Scientific Peer Review - Robert Villarreal - Press Release video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4041193 THE SHROUD AS AN ANCIENT TEXTILE - Evidence of Authenticity http://www.newgeology.us/presentation24.html Shroud Of Turin - Sewn From Two Pieces - 2000 Years Old - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4109101 The Sudarium of Oviedo http://www.shroudstory.com/sudarium.htm Botanical Evidence Indicates "Shroud Of Turin" Originated In Jerusalem Area Before 8th Century http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1999/08/990803073154.htm
bornagain77
January 15, 2013
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@wallstreeter43: NDE are dangerous territory bordering on worshipping Satan:
(...) Certainly the Bible leaves no room for considering near-death experiences as a prelude to life after death. King Solomon’s description of death and its effects has no hints of an immortal soul surviving into some other form of conscious existence. The dead “are conscious of nothing at all.” Of course, those who practice spiritism and communication with the “dead” are only too pleased to have the apparent support of hundreds of near-death experiences. (...) How, then, can all the near-death and out-of-body experiences be explained? (...) It is a factor that most investigators will not admit. For example, Dr. Moody explained in his book Life After Life that “rarely, someone . . . has proposed demonic explanations of near-death experiences, suggesting that the experiences were doubtless directed by inimical forces.” (...) “Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of light. It is therefore nothing great if his ministers also keep transforming themselves into ministers of righteousness.” (2 Corinthians 11:14, 15) If he can perpetuate the basic lie that he has always maintained—“You positively will not die”—he can do it through the apparently most innocent and enlightening means.—Genesis 3:4, 5.
As for the so called shroud of turin:
It is not surprising that, despite its lack of authenticity, the shroud would remain a powerful symbol of faith for the Catholic Church. “Statues, paintings and icons . . . are given a revered place in Catholic practice,” notes The New York Times. Does the Bible support the use of such images in worship? No! God’s Word clearly says: “Flee from idolatry.” (1 Corinthians 10:14; compare Exodus 20:4-6.) Christians are admonished to worship God “with spirit and truth,” not with the help of some image or relic. (John 4:24) Appropriately, Paul wrote that true Christians “are walking by faith, not by sight.”—2 Corinthians 5:7.
“There is no evidence of a shroud during the first centuries of the Christian era,” says the New Catholic Encyclopedia.
JWTruthInLove
January 15, 2013
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Or how about Doctor Pim Van Lommel the materialist Doctor who changed his mind about Nde's and the afterlife after conducting an extensive research I to this area. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOeLJCdHojU www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1k4fwWZMwIwallstreeter43
January 14, 2013
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Buffalo, interesting, now I've got something to do this evening :) Also Buffalo, check out the miracle of lanciano http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html Which also tested AB for the blood type http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.htmlwallstreeter43
January 14, 2013
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Does this qualify, too? New Discoveries of the Constellations on the Tilma of Our Lady of Guadalupe buffalo
January 14, 2013
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Your very welcome my friend, it's only fair that I return the favor, as I've been following your posts for a while ;)wallstreeter43
January 14, 2013
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Why thank you wallstreeter43, you've just given me something interesting to do later on this afternoon! :)bornagain77
January 14, 2013
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Bornagain, I agree on the shroud of turin. First of all it confirms the gospel narratives of the passion of Christ to the tea, which is leading more and more researchers to side of its authenticity. Secondly, the image contains so many unique Characteristics like X-ray information, 3d spatial information, lack of weight pressure on the backside shroud image that corresponds to a lack of gravity, and these are just some of the many unique characteristics that make the shroud one of the most scientifically studied objects on earth. Here is a very good study on the possible position of the body at the moment of image formation by one of the sturp scientists. http://www.acheiropoietos.info/proceedings/LavoieWeb.pdf But in my opinion one of the most underlooked and amazing aspects of the shroud are the pristine blood clots found on the shroud. How do you get a body off a cloth naturally without breaking or smearing the blood clots. They can't even find breakage or smearing atbamicroscopic level, and neither can they find any microscopic tears of the shrouds fibers underlying the blood clots. Here is a more recent presentation given by a Dr. J. Wayne Phillips Who explains this in better detail. www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcKTkjWkqEU I would say that the shroud of turin gives very reasonable evidence for a miracle taking place, but most dogmatic atheists when presented with the shroud in a cogent manner will turn against science, logic and reason to hold onto a worldview that has no reason, no hope , no love and no purpose. This is why I have always believed that atheism at its core is a rebellious and emotional worldview and not an intellectual one.wallstreeter43
January 14, 2013
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Here’s a question for skeptics. Is there any evidence that would convince you that the laws of Nature can be suspended, and that miracles do indeed occur?
Now that would be a miracle.Mung
January 13, 2013
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Would Fatima qualify? The Miracle of the Sunbuffalo
January 13, 2013
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Unless, of course, it's a wry circumlocution; in which case it's just dumb.Axel
January 13, 2013
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'Is there any evidence that would convince you that the laws of Nature can be suspended, and that miracles do indeed occur?' 'I think you might replace “do” with “can”.' Better if you don't try to think discursively, Sequenere. 'Think' and 'might', 'won't butter the parsnips', d'ye ken? Just not apt agents of good counsel.Axel
January 13, 2013
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'"Evidence of a discontinuity would be something to consider." We see that between living organisms and non-living matter. Excellent point, Joe.' QED with bells on and in spades. 'Any event that “violated” the idea that the universe has regular properties or “laws” would be a candidate. How did the universe come by those “regular properties” or “laws”?' Don't be nasty...Axel
January 13, 2013
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Alan Fox: Evidence of a discontinuity would be something to consider. We see that between living organisms and non-living matter. Any event that “violated” the idea that the universe has regular properties or “laws” would be a candidate. How did the universe come by those "regular properties" or "laws"?Joe
January 13, 2013
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"BA posted a lot but did not answer the question." And so is my suspicion/question unanswered by you as to why you would even care to focus on that one particular 'question' since David Coppedge, given his stellar record at NASA for managing very complex problems, is very capable of writing a overall summary on "THE WORLD’S GREATEST CREATION SCIENTISTS From Y1K to Y2K". This question seems especially relevant since there are far meatier issues that Dr. Torley has addressed and especially given the history of persecution that atheists/Darwinists have against David Coppedge. Background on David Coppedge and the Lawsuit Against NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory http://www.discovery.org/a/14511bornagain77
January 13, 2013
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Hi timothya, You are right. I've amended my post accordingly. Thanks for the correction. My apologies for the inadvertent error on my part.vjtorley
January 13, 2013
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BA posted a lot but did not answer the question. vjtorley referred to David Coppedge as "Dr. David Coppedge" [sic]. David Coppedge does not list a doctorate as one of his qualifications in his online curriculum vitae at LinkedIn. Hence my question.timothya
January 13, 2013
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"From which institution did David Coppedge receive his doctorate?" Instead of ever addressing the meet of the argument, character assassination is a fairly common tactic used by neo-Darwinists, and atheists in general; Argument Ad Hominem? (William Lane Craig) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IX3beh6g1Qg William Lane Craig and the Meaning of Ad Hominem Attacks - William Lane Craig - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrVGuUsL2PM David Coppedge, despite a stellar record at NASA, was, IMHO, singled out and fired from NASA because of his ID beliefs: Performance Reviews Support David Coppedge's Claim that NASA Punished Him for Advocating Intelligent Design David Klinghoffer March 22, 2012 http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/03/employment_revi057781.html Bias against ID proponents is systematic within academia: i.e. Though the evidence against neo-Darwinian evolution is overwhelming, anyone who dares question the sufficiency of Darwinism to explain all life on earth in the public school classroom is persecuted, as this following movie/documentary, book, and article, clearly point out: EXPELLED - Starring Ben Stein - Part 1 of 10 - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIZAAh_6OXg Slaughter of Dissidents - Book "If folks liked Ben Stein's movie "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed," they will be blown away by "Slaughter of the Dissidents." - Russ Miller http://www.amazon.com/Slaughter-Dissidents-Dr-Jerry-Bergman/dp/0981873405 Origins - Slaughter of the Dissidents with Dr. Jerry Bergman - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6rzaM_BxBk Academic Freedom Under Fire — Again! - October 2010 Excerpt: All Dr. Avital wanted to do was expose students to some of the weaknesses inherent in Darwin’s theory. Surely there’s no harm in that — or so one would think. But, of course, to the Darwinian faithful, such weaknesses apparently do not exist. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2010/10/academic_freedom_under_fire_-_038911.html Here Dr. Behe relates how the president of the National Academy of Sciences sought to ostracize him for supporting Intelligent Design: TEDxLehighU - Michael Behe - Intelligent Design - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCP9UDFNHlobornagain77
January 13, 2013
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vjtorley included this:
I’d like to quote here from Dr. David Coppedge’s masterly online work, THE WORLD’S GREATEST CREATION SCIENTISTS From Y1K to Y2K:
From which institution did David Coppedge receive his doctorate?timothya
January 13, 2013
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"Is there any evidence that would convince you that the laws of Nature can be suspended, and that miracles do indeed occur?" I think you might replace "do" with "can".Seqenenre
January 13, 2013
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Two quotes concerning miracles: John La Farge, a theologian and author, wrote: “For those who believe in God, no explanation is needed; for those who do not believe in God, no explanation is possible.” In a similar vein, Cardinal John Henry Newman, the brilliant and renowned Oxford graduate, remarked: “A miracle is no argu-ment to one who is deliberately, and on principle, an atheist.” To quote Newman again: “A miracle may be considered as an event inconsistent with the constitution of nature, that is, with the established course of things in which it is found; or, again, an event in a given system which cannot be referred to any law, or accounted for by the operation of any principle, in that system. “It does not necessarily imply a violation of nature, as some have supposed – merely the interposition of an external cause, which, we shall hereafter show, can be no other than the agency of the Deity. And the effect produced is that of an unused or increased action in the parts of the system.”Axel
January 12, 2013
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