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Why Do Atheists Deny Objective Morality?

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In a recent exchange in this post William J. Murray said to frequent commenter Bob O’H:

all you (and others) are doing is avoiding the point via wordplay. We all act and expect others to act as if these things are objective and universally binding, the ability to imagine alternate systems notwithstanding.

That is precisely correct, as illustrated by my exchange with goodusername in the same post.  First, at comment 12 GUN professed to not even know what the word “right” means:

GUN:  “What would it even mean to give a “right” answer to a morality question?”

I decided to test this:

Barry @ 13:

Suppose the following exchange:

GUN: Hey, Barry is is evil to torture an infant for personal pleasure?

Barry: Yes, GUN, it is.

Did I supply a “right” answer to a moral question?

 

GUN replied at 15: “Such a thing certainly shocks my sense of empathy, and so I would fight to stop such a thing, as would most others. So the answer is right in that sense.”

First GUN insisted he does not even know what “morally right” means.  But when confronted with an undeniable self-evident moral truth he had to walk it back and admit he did in fact know what the right answer is.  But, as WJM points out, he tried to obscure the obvious point with wordplay.  So I called BS on him.

GUN’s antics are just the latest of hundreds I have seen over the years.  It is amazing.  They know that no sane person can live his life as if what they say were true.  Yet they absolutely insist on saying it anyway.   Why do they do that?  Simple.  Because they want to ignore the dictates of morality when it suits them.  Atheist Aldous Huxley was very candid about this:

I had motives for not wanting the world to have a meaning; consequently assumed that it had none, and was able without any difficulty to find satisfying reasons for this assumption . . . The philosopher who finds no meaning in the world is not concerned exclusively with a problem in metaphysics, he is also concerned to prove that there is no valid reason why he personally should not do as he wants to do, or why his friends should not seize political power and govern in the way that they find most advantageous to themselves . . . For myself . . . the philosophy of meaningless was essentially an instrument of liberation. The liberation we desired was simultaneously liberation from a certain political and economic system and liberation from a certain system of morality.  We objected to the morality because it interfered with our sexual freedom; we objected to the political and economic system because it was unjust.

Aldous Huxley, Ends and Means: An Inquiry Into the Nature of Ideals and Into the Methods Employed for Their Realization (1937), 272-73

Huxley wanted to reserve the option of sleeping with his neighbor’s wife.  So, no objective morality.

 

 

 

Comments
SB
No, I am asking what those men did to insure the integrity of the Gospels.
I expect they took out Errors and Omissions insurance just like other organizations.JSmith
January 15, 2018
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No, the Bible is neither a science book nor a reference on animals. Quite often when it refers to insects or animals we’re really guessing which ones it’s referring to. It’s easy with sheep or goats, but when it gets into beetles or leviathan we don’t really know for sure.
You didn't answer my question. Why isn't it a science book?critical rationalist
January 15, 2018
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SB I am asking what those men did to insure the integrity of the Gospels.
Some have mischaracterized such copying as a “telephone game” in which each copy introduced changes. But they didn’t just make one copy and rely on it as they did the original. They made multiple copies which they could compare to each other and to the source.
Copy of what? There was no bible in the early church. How can you copy something that doesn't exist? SB: I am also asking about who made the decision about which books to include or not include in the bible.
And I’ve answered. I believe that God did.
The decision on which books qualify as Scripture and which ones do not was four centuries in the making. Are you saying that it took God four centuries to make that decision?StephenB
January 15, 2018
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Fair points, OA.tribune7
January 15, 2018
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SB
I am asking what those men did to insure the integrity of the Gospels.
Some have mischaracterized such copying as a "telephone game" in which each copy introduced changes. But they didn't just make one copy and rely on it as they did the original. They made multiple copies which they could compare to each other and to the source. One's view of this is also affected by whether or not we believe that the successful transmission of the gospels was God's intent. That's going to have a direct bearing on the accuracy of the copying.
I am also asking about who made the decision about which books to include or not include in the bible.
And I've answered. I believe that God did.OldAndrew
January 15, 2018
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But there is a lot of value in reading them even if it’s just to understand how humanity hasn’t changed much during recorded history.
I agree. That's one of the reasons why I enjoy Shakespeare.
And there is a lot of value to citing them in the context of this thread as those rejecting objective eternal truth would reject Scripture out of hand as an authority but may be reached when it is shown that very smart people before Christ dealt with the same positions they are taking and rather conclusively refuted them.
I think it makes perfect sense to reason on ID, evolution, and denial of reason using Aristotle and Plato with those who accept them as an authority. But this is has been all about morality, and more about emphasizing differences than building a common ground. (My past posts certainly don't fall into the "building a common ground" category. I just grew tired of the self-righteous atheist-bashing and said what the heck. But once I get going I'm not that much different am, I? [Other than being right.])OldAndrew
January 15, 2018
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SB, I think i can suggest that the problem of multiple successive tangents is at work now. Perhaps we need to return to focus. KFkairosfocus
January 15, 2018
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No, I answered your question directly.
No, you evaded it. Three times. Clearly, you don't know how the integrity of Christ's teachings were preserved--except to say that God did it, as if humans weren't involved. You don't know how the books of the bible were sifted--except to say that God did it, as of humans weren't involved.
Are you asking me exactly how God poked men with his finger to get them to decide correctly? I can’t answer that.
No, I am asking what those men did to insure the integrity of the Gospels. I am also asking about who made the decision about which books to include or not include in the bible.
I’ll counter with a question. The question: If God used these kings and nations to execute his will, should we regard them as his worshippers and look to them as examples?
No.StephenB
January 15, 2018
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OA Plato and Aristotle can't save you. Of course, neither could Moses or David. There is, however, much value in knowing about them and reading them. Plato's Republic has a fascinating part regarding how if a perfectly righteous man were to come among us he would be killed. Plato also tries to deal with death and life before birth which if you were to accept in lieu of Scripture you would be throwing away gold for dirt. But there is a lot of value in reading them even if it's just to understand how humanity hasn't changed much during recorded history. And there is a lot of value to citing them in the context of this thread as those rejecting objective eternal truth would reject Scripture out of hand as an authority but may be reached when it is shown that very smart people before Christ dealt with the same positions they are taking and rather conclusively refuted them.tribune7
January 15, 2018
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T7,
Are you saying that the only thing one should read is Scripture?
No. Paul could very easily have said not to read Greek philosophy. He didn't say that. He just said that it was empty and to watch out that we aren't led away by it.OldAndrew
January 15, 2018
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You are evading my questions.
No, I answered your question directly. Are you asking me exactly how God poked men with his finger to get them to decide correctly? I can't answer that. I'll counter with a question. Answer if you can. God used the Babylonians to execute judgment against Israel. He used the Medes and Persians to liberate Israel. The question: If God used these kings and nations to execute his will, should we regard them as his worshippers and look to them as examples?OldAndrew
January 15, 2018
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OA, Are you saying that the only thing one should read is Scripture?tribune7
January 15, 2018
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When you said that I reject reason, were you referring to my rejection of Aristotle or not?
I say that you reject reason itself, not because you say you do, but because your comments reveal it.StephenB
January 15, 2018
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SB: Does that mean that you don’t know the answer to my question? Does that also mean that you don’t know the answer to my question about how the truths of the Gospels were maintained?
I believe that God inspired the Bible, protected the integrity of its contents, and even ensured its translation into thousands of languages despite the church trying to kill the translators and burn the Bibles.
You are evading my questions. How was the integrity of the Gospels maintained between the time Jesus died and the time the Gospels were actually written? Who decided which books would qualify for Scripture and which books would not?
Don’t you believe that?
Of course I do. Strawman response. Please either answer my question or just say that you don't know.StephenB
January 15, 2018
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PPS: I think we can go to a voice even more despised to speak to the other half of the matter:
1 Cor 14: 7 Yet even lifeless things, whether flute or harp, when producing a sound, if they do not produce distinct [musical] tones, how will anyone [listening] know what is piped or played? 8 And if the [war] bugle produces an indistinct sound, who will prepare himself for battle? [AMP]
People understood this 2,000 years ago, understood it well. Just what is it that is wrong with us? Distinct identity is the start point for rational thought and communication, so we must recognise this to be self-evident, on pain of reducing ourselves to absurdly irrational chaos. Why is it that we struggle with distinct identity and what comes from it in this day and age? We have absorbed a radical fallibilism that is designed to make us doubt that we can know anything with certainty -- one supposes, inclduing itself. that is, it is self-referentially incoherent. But when that is pointed out, it is disregarded and we are denounced for pointing this out. No, if you make a crooked yardstick your standard of what is straight, level and upright or accurate, then what is really so will never pass your test. So, the crooked yardstick is the nuke weapon of the manipulator and agit prop operator. How do you break such cultic indoctrination? By bringing out a plumbline which is naturally upright, straight and so what is crooked will be exposed for those willing to learn. However, there are some who will cling to absurdity even in the face of a plumbline test.kairosfocus
January 15, 2018
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PS: I feel inclined to start with this, from a Sermon you have despised, to illustrate the principle of induction and its connexion to the law of identity:
Matt 5:13 “You are the [d]salt of the earth; but if the salt has [e]lost its taste (purpose), how can it be made salty? It is no longer good for anything, but to be thrown out and walked on by people [when the walkways are wet and slippery]. 14 “You are the light of [Christ to] the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden; Matt 7: 16 By their fruit you will recognize them [that is, by their contrived doctrine and self-focus]. Do people pick grapes from thorn bushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the unhealthy tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. [AMP]
Here, we see in ever so familiar commonplace cases, that a thing with a distinct identity has core characteristics and properties leading to observable behaviours that flow from that identity, that nature. We may then inspect the manifestations and credibly, reasonably, responsibly infer the nature of what we see. Yes, there are limitations of provisionality, but the logic at work is clear. And yes, we speak here to the core of science and dare to use a much despised and spoken against book as a point of reference. Are you willing to acknowledge the principle of inductive reasoning? To acknowledge that this makes sense, however carefully we must manage our investigations, inferences, testing etc and with whatever inherent limitations of induction we may see? If you cannot, it matters not what you may claim to be, you show yourself to have your own characteristics, properties and behaviours manifesting that nature or distinct identity. It is high time that the irrationality of a sad, perverse day was exposed for what it is.kairosfocus
January 15, 2018
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When I say that Greek philosophy can illuminate scripture, I mean it can illuminate the meaning of scripture in your mind.
You're welcome to that opinion. But the scriptures call it foolishness and never advocated studying Greek philosophy to illuminate the meaning of the scriptures. And when the congregation came under the influence of men who were students of such philosophy we got big hats, ring-kissing, schisms, infusion of Platonism into Bible teachings, statues, and Bible burning. Paul warned the congregation not to be misled by the philosophy of men, they were misled, and the results were horrific. So if anyone is deciding whether to embrace Greek philosophy and use it to illuminate their understanding of the Bible or to disdain it as the Bible itself does then there's an object lesson. You can only show people.OldAndrew
January 15, 2018
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JS:
Since ID appears incapable of separating itself from its founding religion,
Except the fact that ID doesn't have a "founding religion", of course.ET
January 15, 2018
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I never said that Aristotle = reason or vice versa.
Then what did you mean by this, when the only "reason" I've spoken against is faith in the teachings of Aristotle?
your obvious disdain for reason prevents you from making critical distinctions... The bible tells us to use our reason, but you ignore the point because for some reason you think reason is the enemy of scripture
When you said that I reject reason, were you referring to my rejection of Aristotle or not? If you implied that I rejected reason outright, you were being dishonest then. If you were referring to my rejection of Aristotle you're being dishonest now.OldAndrew
January 15, 2018
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OA
I happen to agree that we should use reason, logic, and faith to understand the scriptures.
Its about time.
But to illuminate the scriptures with the teachings of Greek philosophy which the scriptures themselves eschew and dismiss, fails on all three counts – reason, logic, and faith.
I think you are struggling with the word "illuminate." When I say that Greek philosophy can illuminate scripture, I mean it can illuminate the meaning of scripture in your mind. Not that it can improve on scripture. Nothing can improve on scripture. Also, the Gnostics, were heretics and cannot help us and are not the same as the Greek philosphers. OK?StephenB
January 15, 2018
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Does that mean that you don’t know the answer to my question? Does that also mean that you don’t know the answer to my question about how the truths of the Gospels were maintained?
I believe that God inspired the Bible, protected the integrity of its contents, and even ensured its translation into thousands of languages despite the church trying to kill the translators and burn the Bibles. Don't you believe that? A thing cannot both be true and untrue. (I figured that out for myself because it's self-evident.) God cannot be capable of creating life, foretelling events thousands of years in advance, and parting seas, but incapable of binding a book. If you don't believe that then it would be contradictory to say that you view the Bible as a revelation of truth from God. Because, you know, he really wanted to, but all those books, time, etc. It's really hard and all he could do is give it his best. Your claims of objective reality are resting atop self-contradictions.OldAndrew
January 15, 2018
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OA
And as you’ve made quite plain, reason = Aristotle.
Nope. As usual, you are misrepresenting. I said A was a symbol of reason. Aristotle discovered the laws of logic. Aristotle made mistakes, reason, properly applied, doesn't. I never said that Aristotle = reason or vice versa.StephenB
January 15, 2018
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SB: What you said is:
it is quite another thing to use reason, logic, and faith to explain, interpret, and illuminate, the scriptures.
And as you've made quite plain, reason = Aristotle. If one disregards Aristotle, he is anti-reason. "Aristotle discovered logic," you said. (Make up your mind - is it self-evident or did Aristotle discover it?) I happen to agree that we should use reason, logic, and faith to understand the scriptures. But to illuminate the scriptures with the teachings of Greek philosophy which the scriptures themselves eschew and dismiss, fails on all three counts - reason, logic, and faith. And, by the way, don't just react. Think.OldAndrew
January 15, 2018
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SB: The decision about which books qualify as scripture and which ones do was made in the 4th century. How do you suppose that decision was made? OA
Do you worship a God who can create life but can’t ensure that a few dozen books he inspired can’t be kept intact and separated from the ones he didn’t?
I notice that you answered my question with a question. Does that mean that you don't know the answer to my question? Does that also mean that you don't know the answer to my question about how the truths of the Gospels were maintained? Do you think that the bible just fell out of the sky ready to read?StephenB
January 15, 2018
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OA
You also insist that the Bible should be illuminated with reason that the Bible itself says is nonsense.
You are confused. As I said above,
...the Bible is both reasonable, in the sense that it never says anything against reason, and surpassing of reason, in the sense that it provides teachings that reason cannot reach.
Don't just react. Think.StephenB
January 15, 2018
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JS, over several weeks, we have engaged you and others and have drawn out the root of objections to the design theory inference on empirically reliable sign: deeply entrenched irrationality in our civilisation, in part driven by and partly reinforcing some very bad philosophy of science and also undermining general reasoning. The picture is not pretty, but it is what it is. Going forward we are going to build on that. And we are going to note duly the prudent things we will need to do to save our civilisation. KFkairosfocus
January 15, 2018
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The decision about which books qualify as scripture and which ones do was made in the 4th century. How do you suppose that decision was made?
Do you worship a God who can create life but can't ensure that a few dozen books he inspired can't be kept intact and separated from the ones he didn't? You're right, that's way too hard for God. Maybe he should have asked Aristotle for help.OldAndrew
January 15, 2018
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Jul3s, pardon but no. It is highly relevant to articulate and draw out that we have a problem with core rationality tied to the dominant worldviews and how that repeatedly leads to patent but stubbornly clung to absurdities. Irrationality is demonstrably shaping not only science but also policy, law, culture, education, media and culture, and the recent discussions have drawn that out in the open. Even mathematics faces some of this, when we begin to deal with the transfinite and issues such as stepwise spanning of the transfinite -- directly relevant to the world-root. That sets the stage for onward discussions. And BTW, there is a current technical and design thread up from me in addition to the usual news discussion of science related topics; one that draws a direct link from a hot current topic to the design inference explanatory filter. Observe, what is happening there. KFkairosfocus
January 15, 2018
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Old Andrew
Before such so-called “church fathers” we had Jesus, a man unrecognizable in a crowd, who taught his followers – also ordinary men – to love God, one another, and to follow the teachings of the scriptures. They were to be on guard against worldly philosophies. idolatry, divisions between one another, and identifying themselves by which men in the congregation they followed.
John's Gospel was written between 80 and 90 A. D. Christ was crucified at about 27 A. D. How do you suppose the truths of that Gospel were maintained? The decision about which books qualify as scripture and which ones do was made in the 4th century. How do you suppose that decision was made? Or do you labor under the misconception that the bible just fell out of the sky ready to read?StephenB
January 15, 2018
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your obvious disdain for reason prevents you from making critical distinctions. So it is with the remainder of your rant. The bible tells us to use our reason, but you ignore the point because for some reason you think reason is the enemy of scripture
Again, you conflate reason with Aristotle, and imply that someone who accepts the Bible but rejects Aristotle also rejects reason. How dishonest of you to claim that I rejected reason. You also insist that the Bible should be illuminated with reason that the Bible itself says is nonsense. That's not just wrong, it's internally inconsistent. Aristotle is frowning at you. You continue to underscore my point. My insisting that reason is somehow something external to the Bible, you show contempt for it, while fawning over Aristotle and his like. You say that you hold the Bible above Aristotle, and then in the next breath say that someone who accepts the Bible but not Aristotle is anti-reason. That's rather faint praise for the Bible.OldAndrew
January 15, 2018
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