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Would Moral Subjectivists Agree to Math and Logic Subjectivism?

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One of the recurring themes on this blog is moral subjectivism vs moral objectivism. Subjectivists argue that morals are fundamentally subjective in nature – akin to personal preferences, although very strongly felt. Let us agree for the sake of argument that they are not the same as simple preferences like flavors or fashion or colors and exclude that comparison from the conversation.

All perceptions of any kind are acquired and processed subjectively. That’s not the question; the question is whether or not it is better, more logical, or even necessary to think and act as if what one is referring to is objective in nature. Even though we all perceive what we call the “outside” world subjectively, I’m sure we’d all agree that it is necessary to think and act as if there is an actual, outside world – even if one is a solipsist. If you do not think and act as if it exists, you are in for a world of hurt.

A couple of other threads here refer to the current trend in some academic circles to consider “engineering rigor”, logic, gender and math part of the so-called “white, heterosexual, patriarchical oppression”; in other words, that such things are also subjective in nature and are largely produced by cultural bias. Link 1. Link 2.

If even the existence of the exterior world can be doubted on the grounds of subjectvism, certainly logic and math, which exist – as far as we can tell – solely in the mind, must be “subjective” in nature. Unless a subjectivist wishes to argue that thoughts can be anything other than subjective in nature, how exactly would they argue that math and logic objectively exist, or are objectively binding for everyone? Why should they be?

I don’t see how that argument can be made. If such abstract models are necessarily subjective in nature, then it follows that “engineering rigor,” which relies on math and logic, is one particular subjective perspective that has been forced on everyone via various building codes and laws. This argument is precisely the same as the argument for moral subjectivism; because something cannot be seen or measured in the exterior world and appears to exist solely in the heart or mind of the observer (which is true of math, logic and morality), then it must be subjective in nature, and must be accepted as such and treated as such.

Would a moral subjectivist be willing to live their life in a society where math and logic are considered subjective? Would they be willing to live in buildings where all features of the construction were left up to the builder’s subjective view of math, logic and engineering rigor? Where people were free to dismantle, change and add on to the structure based on their own subjective views? Exactly how long does one think a building would last if everyone got to change whatever part of it they wanted according to their subjective views? What if someone didn’t like the foundation and just started dismantling it and replacing it with something they subjectively think is better? Would a subjectivist get on a plane or a boat built by engineering subjectivists, or while enroute was being altered by engineering subjectivists?

And yet, the foundation and structure that built and maintains our entire society, informs the social construct and serves as the basis of law, is something moral subjectivists say will survive, thrive and even get better if we embrace moral subjectivism. Would moral subjectivists agree to math and logic subjectivism? To engineering subjectivism? If not, why not? Are they claiming math and logic are objective commodities and universally binding, even though they only exist in the world of mind and are – apparently – capable of being dismissed (by a growing segment) as subjective cultural biases?

Comments
LT @ 185: No, I don't mean the mind as a processing result of physical states. That would render free will a physical effect and morality meaningless. I mean mind as a transcendent dimension, so to speak, a landscape with objectively real commodities. Just as in the physical we have physical bodies that lawfully abide gravity and other so-called natural laws, so to is the transcendent dimension of mind a mental world populated by mental entities (like us) and mental "laws". Bob O'H: I think plenty of information has been provided to you to chew on internally if you see fit. At the end of the day, I - and no one else - can convince you of anything. In my view, we have the free will to believe whatever we wish to believe. If you wish to believe that morality is subjective, that's your prerogative. It's not my desire to change your views; that's not why I participate in venues like this. I do appreciate the intellectual and non-acrimonious discussion.William J Murray
January 19, 2018
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BO'H: Having an education is part of relevant experience. Relying on rote rather than first principles or insights is not. KFkairosfocus
January 19, 2018
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kf @ 192 - I'm guessing that you were taught to count. So the fact that it is obvious to you (as it is to me) may not mean much in deciding whether it is obvious to someone not taught to count.Bob O'H
January 19, 2018
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DS, I gather somewhere something much like that actually happened. That sort of abstruse stepwise analysis and derivation is just what I do not have in mind. If it is not pretty much immediately clear, it is not patent. KFkairosfocus
January 19, 2018
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KF, Perhaps I've heard this sort of joke too many times:
One mathematician was showing his new theorem to another. The colleague pointed at the chalkboard and asked how the theorem went from one step to the next. The first mathematician said, "That's obvious." The second went to a second blackboard, spent an hour filling it up with complex calculations, then stepped back and said, "You're right, it IS obvious."
daveS
January 19, 2018
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BO'H: I say yes as we can see: || + ||| --> ||||| The labels and symbols are secondary. I think there is a degree of experience and familiarity required to come to understand, but that is part of the framework. KFkairosfocus
January 19, 2018
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DS, yes to deny the multiplication will lead to absurdity but that is not patent, instantly manifest. In short this is not a matter of lengthy reductio proofs. KFkairosfocus
January 19, 2018
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After being grilled for a week, JSmith finally confesses. And so the process has ended: SB: I am not asking you what history says, I am asking what you say. If society approves the subjectivist’s code at a given time, then is the subjectivist entitled to act on it?
Yes, they are legally entitled. And as per the morals at the time, they would be morally entitled.
SB: Thank you. So that means that, in your judgment, the subjectivist, whose morality permits wanton murder, is entitled, legally and morally, to act on his morality if society approves. And, of course, it follows that the subjectivist, whose morality promotes death camps for Jews, is also entitled to act on his morality if society approves.
Yes. (followed by an anti-biblical rant)
StephenB
January 19, 2018
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KF,
But 1965 x 937 = 1,841,205 is necessary but not self-evident.
:o It seems like we're using different definitions of "self-evident" at various points. Surely if you attempt to deny the truth of this equation, you will be led to absurdity. Furthermore, it's true based only on the meanings of the symbols. Therefore I might argue that it's self-evident. Now it's not "obvious" to most of us, without a calculation at least, but I thought "self-evident" meant something different than "obvious".daveS
January 19, 2018
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Actually, is 2 + 3 = 5 self-evident to someone who hasn’t been taught to count? That's a great point. i would note that it would be self evident that five oranges are more than three oranges and it would also be self-evident that three oranges are more than two oranges. Would it be self evident that combining two oranges with three oranges give one just as many oranges as the person with five oranges? I will say yes.tribune7
January 19, 2018
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kf - OK, but then how do we know that moral "self evident truths" are self evident and not taught? Actually, is 2 + 3 = 5 self-evident to someone who hasn't been taught to count? I agree it's necessary, but is it obvious?Bob O'H
January 19, 2018
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BO'H: Did you notice why I distinguished self-evident from necessary truths? (As in patent absurdity on attempted denial.) 2 + 3 = 5 || + ||| --> ||||| But 1965 x 937 = 1,841,205 is necessary but not self-evident. Whether one was taught by teachers is irrelevant. What is, is that from understanding what is said on background adequate to have insight [not rote memory], one sees that the claim is true, is necessarily true, and is so on pain of patent absurdity on attempted denial. Obviousness per having been taught [soundly] is not the same. And one can be taught error. Zere's a diffrance, mon! KFkairosfocus
January 19, 2018
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WJM@162: I agree with this, on first pass:
what we call morality exists in exactly the same way as what we call logic and math exist – they are language-based representations of fundamental, objectively real aspects of mind (not the physical brain), in virtually all cases recognizable by any mind sufficiently sentient to operate at rudimentary levels of abstract thought.
I don't quite get what you refer to by "objectively real aspects of mind," but I get the distinction between mind and brain. For me, I tend to follow Pinker's definition of mind as the brain at work, a computational system. I'm paraphrasing, of course, as Pinker's definition is more elaborate and nuanced. So, you might be referring to actual operations performed in certain centers of the brain. If so, I'm in agreement. Most moral subjectivists could, I think, assent to the idea that morality exists as language-based representations in the mind.LarTanner
January 19, 2018
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WJM - my point was precisely that I recognise 4+7=11 as being true without having to prove it from first principles. But that doesn't mean it's a self-evident truth, it means I was taught it at school. Although I could try to prove it, I don't have to. My argument is that, in a similar way, I don't have to go through a long argument for why torturing children for fun is morally wrong, I can take a short-cut because I have been taught morals well enough that the conclusion is obvious. You still haven't explained whether it's possible to a judgment that torturing children for fun is evil without a moral system. But I think this is important: it's about working out what could be a self-evident truth, and what is an inference derived from what could be self-evident truths.Bob O'H
January 19, 2018
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Bob O'H: You might read my response to LT @ 162 wrt what a "moral system" is.
That’s a bit like asking if I know that 4+7=11 as soon as I see it, without having to go to set theory to prove it.
Well, Bob, if you're going to say you wouldn't be able to recognize that 1+1=2 without first having been taught set theory, I guess we've exhausted the potential of the conversation. I appreciate your time. BTW, "set theory" is extracted from obviously true mathematical statements. It explains what we innately recognized to be true. To claim set theory comes first is like claiming that if we randomly decided that 1+1=28 and built our math on that, then we would immediately recognize the truth value of 1+1=28 and everything we do using that math would work just fine.William J Murray
January 19, 2018
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WJM @ 159 -
Do you need a moral system to decide if it is evil to torture innocent children for pleasure?
I don't see how you can make that judgment without a moral system. Isn't that exactly a moral judgment?
Do you need to weigh the pros and cons, do a cost/benefit analysis, consider various philosophical and psychological perspectives? Or do you just know it is evil as soon as you see it?
That's a bit like asking if I know that 4+7=11 as soon as I see it, without having to go to set theory to prove it. We all know some things because we were taught it when we were young, so we don't even think about them - they're just obvious.
Do you think it is possible, in any world, using any argument no matter how reasonable, even if I threatened to torture you, that you could come to agree (in your mind) that torturing an innocent child for your personal pleasure was a good thing?
Wait, you're asking for a subjective judgment? :-) Actually I can't, but kf has already given an example of someone who has (if, perhaps, without intending to):
In consequence of which mutual connection of justice and human felicity, he has not perplexed the law of nature with a multitude of abstracted rules and precepts, referring merely to the fitness or unfitness of things, as some have vainly surmised; but has graciously reduced the rule of obedience to this one paternal precept, “that man should pursue his own true and substantial happiness.
Blackstone assumes that people are inherently good, which seems a bit optimistic. Without that assumption, his moral code can become distinctly immoral (and yes, that is a subjective judgment!).Bob O'H
January 19, 2018
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FYI-FTR: JS, “sock[puppet]” troll persona — the unmasking (by Ab at a notorious objector site) -- here.kairosfocus
January 19, 2018
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I should note that I forgot to put the second paragraph @179 in quotes. They are JSmith's comments and not my own.StephenB
January 18, 2018
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SB
Thank you. So that means that, in your judgment, the subjectivist, whose morality permits wanton murder, is entitled, legally and morally, to act on his morality if society approves.
Yes. But can you envision such a society surviving for any length of time? I can’t.
And, of course, it follows that the subjectivist, whose morality promotes death camps for Jews, is also entitled to act on his morality if society approves.
If the killing of the wives and infants of your defeated enemies is moral, then yes.JSmith
January 18, 2018
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Yes, they are legally entitled. And as per the morals at the time, they would be morally entitled.
Thank you. So that means that, in your judgment, the subjectivist, whose morality permits wanton murder, is entitled, legally and morally, to act on his morality if society approves. And, of course, it follows that the subjectivist, whose morality promotes death camps for Jews, is also entitled to act on his morality if society approves. I appreciate your forthright answer. The bible says that you are morally entitled to own and to beat your slave. In the sixties in the southern US, you would have been legally and morally entitled to refuse service to a person purely because of the colour of their skin. Up until the middle of the last century you would have been legally and morally entitled to hit your wife. Up until recently, you would be legally and morally entitled to fire an employee for being gay. And these were at a time when moral values were generally believed to be objective.StephenB
January 18, 2018
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SB
I am not asking you what history says, I am asking what you say. If society approves the subjectivist’s code at a given time, then is the subjectivist entitled to act on it?
Yes, they are legally entitled. And as per the morals at the time, they would be morally entitled. The bible says that you are morally entitled to own and to beat your slave. In the sixties in the southern US, you would have been legally and morally entitled to refuse service to a person purely because of the colour of their skin. Up until the middle of the last century you would have been legally and morally entitled to hit your wife. Up until recently, you would be legally and morally entitled to fire an employee for being gay. And these were at a time when moral values were generally believed to be objective.JSmith
January 18, 2018
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SB: So if society approves of the subjectivists code, let’s say slave trading or genocide, then those who hold these views are entitled to act on them? JS
Well, history suggests that the answer is yes.
I am not asking you what history says, I am asking what you say. If society approves the subjectivist's code at a given time, then is the subjectivist entitled to act on it?StephenB
January 18, 2018
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JSmith:
Everyone is entitled to form their own moral code.
Spoken like a mad manET
January 18, 2018
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KF
JS, a typical trollish talking point.
Your opinion is duly noted and given the attention it deserves.JSmith
January 18, 2018
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SB
First, you say that everyone is entitled to act on his subjective moral code.
Nope. Never said that. I said that people feel entitled to act on their moral code. Which can be confirmed by simply watching the news. Whether society allows them to do so is a different thing.
So if society approves of the subjectivists code, let’s say slave trading or genocide, then those who hold these views are entitled to act on them?
Well, history suggests that the answer is yes. But entitlements are not absolute and eternal. Up until well into the last century husbands were entitled to hit their wives. Up until quite recently, employers were entitled to deny employment to homosexuals. Up until the sixties bus drivers were entitled to make black people sit at the back of the bus. Up until quite recently, golf courses were entitled to deny me membership because of my Jewish heritage.JSmith
January 18, 2018
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JS
Everyone is entitled to form their own moral code. Which is quite obvious given the differences we see on this fringe web site. But whether or not they are entitled to act on it will depend on those they want to live around.
First, you say that everyone is entitled to act on his subjective moral code. Then you say only those whose moral code you agree with are entitled to act on their personal code. Now you say that only those whose moral code society agrees with are entitled to act on their code. So if society approves of the subjectivists code, let's say slave trading or genocide, then those who hold these views are entitled to act on them?StephenB
January 18, 2018
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SB
By your philosophy, the subjectivist is, by definition, entitled to form his own moral code and act on it. That is your stated philosophy.
No. Everyone is entitled to form their own moral code. Which is quite obvious given the differences we see on this fringe web site. But whether or not they are entitled to act on it will depend on those they want to live around. The society. For example, Joe and Steve think that it is morally acceptable for them to be married. Thirty years ago, the rest of society would have said no, and KF would be happy. Today, society says yes, and KF is apoplectic.JSmith
January 18, 2018
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SB: If so, why do you not grant that same right to the subjectivist child killer? JS
For the same reason that people may intervene in my acting on my moral values. Humans are variable and don’t always agree.
But don't you understand why this doesn't work? By your philosophy, the subjectivist is, by definition, entitled to form his own moral code and act on it. That is your stated philosophy. And yet, when another subjectivist forms a moral code that you don't like, you reverse your field and say that only those subjectivsts you agree with are entitled to act on their code.StephenB
January 18, 2018
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JS, a typical trollish talking point. They are past sell-by date. You tried to make distinctions without a difference, I pointed out how the definition of evil applies. And while there are degrees of evil, relatively low degree is not tantamount to absence. KFkairosfocus
January 18, 2018
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SB
Thank you for your forthright answer. Do you believe that you are entitled to act on your subjective morality?
I think that we all feel entitled to act according to our morality, whether it is subjective or objective.
If so, why do you not grant that same right to the subjectivist child killer?
For the same reason that people may intervene in my acting on my moral values. Humans are variable and don’t always agree.JSmith
January 18, 2018
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