Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Why Does It Matter? Because Some Calculations Must Be Literally Unthinkable

Categories
Intelligent Design
Share
Facebook
Twitter/X
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

I despise Henry Kissinger. He is an evil man. I am currently reading his On China (2011), and I was reminded of just how evil he is when I read his apology for Zhou Enlai (pp. 241-43). For those who do not remember, as premier of the PPR during the tumultuous 60s and 70s, Zhou was Mao’s chief henchman. The world will never know how many people Mao killed. Estimates range from 40 to 80 million, and Zhou was at his side implementing his policies every step of the way. Of this henchman to a genocidal maniac Kissinger writes:

Surely Zhou’s methods of political survival involved lending his administrative skill to the execution of policies that he may well have found personally distasteful . . .

This makes me want to puke. What kind of sociopath uses the word “distasteful” to describe someone’s response to participation in genocide? It will come as no surprise that Kissinger reveres Machiavelli above all other theorists, and nowhere is this more plain than when he continues[in this passage Zhou is the advisor and Mao is the prince in view ]:

The advisor to the prince occasionally faces the dilemma of balancing the benefits of the ability to alter events against the possibility of exclusion, should he bring his objections to any one policy to a head. How does the ability to modify the prince’s prevailing conduct weigh against the moral onus of participation in his policies? How does one measure the element of nuance over time against the claims of absolutes in the immediate? What is the balance between the cumulative impact of moderating trends against that of a grand (and probably doomed) gesture?

How Kissinger answers these questions and his ultimate assessment of Zhou is not in doubt; he called Zhou “one of the two or three most impressive men I have ever met.” God help us. How could we have let a man who could write these things into the very highest echelons of our leadership for a period spanning over five decades?

Kissinger implies that Zhou was a reluctant participant and a moderating influence to Mao’s reign of terror. This view is hotly disputed. In his Mao Zedong and the Cultural Revolution, for example, Angang Hu argues that Zhou’s support, far from moderating the Cultural Revolution, kept it going, and that Zhou was Mao’s enabler, not his moderator.

But let us set that argument aside, because ultimately it is morally irrelevant. Assume for the sake of argument that there is some support for the proposition that Hermann Göring was a moderating influence to the most terrible excesses of the Third Reich. If Hitler had conquered Europe, would it have been appropriate for an American statesman to later praise Hermann Göring and even sympathize with him for the terrible burden of “weighing nuance against absolutes” that he had to bear. I admit the analogy is not quite apt, because Mao killed tens of millions more people than Hitler did. Still, the very idea is absurd.

The “dilemma” Kissinger poses is a false dilemma. The kinds of calculations Kissinger has in mind are morally repugnant. Indeed, they should be unthinkable. Moreover, the measuring to which Kissinger alludes is not only morally loathsome; it is also self-referentially incoherent. It is in the very nature of “absolutes” that they cannot be “measured” or “balanced” against anything else (and most especially against “nuance,” whatever that means).

Absolutes admit no calculation. When faced with the choice of whether to engage in formal cooperation with evil of unspeakable proportions, the only moral choice is to refuse to cooperate. Let us say for the sake of argument that Zhou was in fact given the choice of being Mao’s henchman, in which case “only” 60 million people would die, and refusing to be his henchman, in which case 65 million people would die. Still, the only moral choice was for him to refuse to cooperate with Mao’s evil even if more people (including Zhou himself) would die.

This is not a “train switch” scenario. Moral philosopher’s love to talk about the hapless schmo standing at a train switch. An unstoppable runaway train is coming down the track. If the schmo lets it stay on its present track, 100 people will get run over and die. If he pulls the switch and shunts the train to another track, only 50 people will die. The obvious answer to this dilemma is to pull the switch. If death is inevitable due to uncontrollable forces of nature (in this case the forces of gravity and inertia), the only moral choice is the one that leads to the fewest deaths.

How is this different from Zhou’s non-dilemma? The answer is that the Cultural Revolution was not inevitable. It resulted from the conscious choices of moral agents. If all moral agents had refused to participate, not a single person would have died, because the CR would never have happened.

Some of my readers might remember the movie Sophie’s Choice (or the novel of the same name). The eponymous choice of the movie occurred upon Sophie’s arrival at Auschwitz. A guard forced her to choose which one of her two children would be gassed and which would proceed to the labor camp. If she refused to choose, both children would be killed. What was Sophie to do? Is it not the moral choice to choose one of the children to die so that at least one may live? Sophie chooses her son to live and her daughter to die. Sophie’s choice was profoundly immoral. The only moral choice is to refuse to choose even if this means both children must die. By choosing, Sophie entered into formal cooperation with the guard’s evil. And it is always evil to engage in formal cooperation with evil. Some calculations must be unthinkable. One must never engage in profound evil even if one could somehow attempt to justify it with Kissinger’s balancing act. Fiat justitia ruat caelum (“Let justice be done though the heavens fall”)

What does this have to do with Zhou? Just this. Zhou’s choice was Sophie’s choice writ large.

Why does this all matter? I was prompted to write this post by an exchange with Mark Frank.

I wrote:

You know for a certain fact that torturing an infant for personal pleasure is evil at all places, at all times, for all people.

Mark replied:

I disagree. I don’t believe you know moral judgments as “facts” so I would say that as it stands it is false.

Mark added:

I stressed that it was because I don’t regard moral judgments as facts . . . I think they are opinions not facts.

Finally, Mark said:

I don’t know the innermost psyche of the Incas who performed child sacrifices but it seems quite possible they did it for personal pleasure and thought it was morally OK.

No Mark. You are wrong. Hugely, monstrously, horribly wrong.

It absolutely must be an objective fact that torturing an infant for personal pleasure is evil at all places, at all times, for all people or it is not a fact at all. It is a binary question. Yes/No. The only way the proposition can ever be true is if it is indeed an objective fact. The very act of suggesting that the issue is a matter of opinion as opposed to objective fact is immoral because it renders the proposition false. In other words, to even say that it is not unthinkable for the proposition to be untrue is profoundly immoral, because it is equivalent to saying the proposition is false.

Therefore, even assuming for the sake of argument that some Inca thought it was OK to torture infants for pleasure, it does not follow that his opinion on the subject is entitled to any weight whatsoever. Would we credit our hapless Inca’s views if his opinion were that 1+1=3? Of course, not. When the Inca is wrong about objective fact, we must not hesitate to reject his views categorically even if someone might accuse us of being “intolerant.” Error has no rights. The only moral position is to say that it is literally unthinkable for the proposition to ever be false.

As Zhoe’s non-dilemma was not a matter of calculation but of simple courage to do the only right thing, so too this proposition can never be a matter that could possibly vary due to circumstance, calculation or opinion. It is always true or it is never true.

It is immoral to say that the proposition “torturing an infant for personal pleasure is evil at all places, at all times, for all people” is up for grabs. Why is it evil? Because someone might believe you of course! By saying this you have undermined the “unthinkable-ness” of the converse of the proposition. And when you do that, you have opened a door that must always remain shut.

Comments
Let me continue to sharpen this point. Why is it okay for you to impose your privately and subjectively held moral values on others, in matters either small or great, when you do not have a standard by which to determine you are actually right? You said, Mark, one OUGHT NOT, in your subjective moral opinion, impose their standard on someone with regards to a mathematical equation they believed was wrong if that person cannot point to an objective standard justifying their action. You also said, Mark, one MUST (not to mean they cannot choose not to, but it's their only option if they are to judge), in your subjective moral opinion, impose their standard on someone with regards to life and death matters even though they CANNOT have an objective standard to justify their actions. In the one case, of academics, one ought not act without an objective warrant, but in the infinitely more weighty cases, even of life and death, one need not an objective warrant to act. Can it get any more backwards?Brent
February 7, 2015
February
02
Feb
7
07
2015
10:14 AM
10
10
14
AM
PDT
William J Murray: In fact, it is what differentiates subjectivism from relativism and objectivism – morality is accepted as being something that lies entirely within the mind of the individual. Here's your statement: "the judger agrees that his judgement is only valid for him and not valid for others or binding on others" That is incorrect. Recognizing that someone may differ on what is moral does not mean that someone may not feel a moral imperative to impose their own morality on others. William J Murray: Not if they are rationally consistent subjectivists, since there is nothing external or objective that their views could be the “best” in relation to. Um, "best" is subjective. William J Murray: They can feel whatever the wish; the question is if those feelings are rationally consistent with and can be rationally justified via moral subjectivism. One doesn't justify sensibilities. Abstract thought has nothing to do with why someone doesn't like to see others in pain. They just do or they don't. However, subjectivism is not inconsistent with rational thought. William J Murray: That psychopaths can run around calling themselves moral subjectivists and feel compelled to force their admittedly personal, subjective morality on others is not relevant to the argument at hand. That psychopaths can run around calling themselves moral objectivists and feel compelled to force their admittedly personal, objective morality on others is not relevant to the argument at hand. William J Murray: The fact is that if you are a rationally consistent moral subjectivist, you certainly don’t feel compelled to force what are admittedly nothing more than personal standards and views on others. That would be irrational. No. Not unless you place a higher moral value on non-intervention than on the result of intervention. William J Murray: The rational methodology is that there is no reason to even attempt to coerce others unless there is something objectively real and important at stake. Most people place a value on minding their own business, so intervention does have to be important enough to overcome this barrier. However, it doesn't have to be objective, just important. While emotions are not based on rational choice, they are not inconsistent with rationality.Zachriel
February 7, 2015
February
02
Feb
7
07
2015
10:10 AM
10
10
10
AM
PDT
William J Murray: In my morality, it is immoral to force on others that which I hold to be nothing more than my personal views and standards. Lol! I presume you can show us where your objective morality actually says so? Oh wait, no, you can't - you only assume it does. My my, what tangled webs we weave. How ridiculous to wave the word 'abhorrent' around for someone doing exactly the same as you do, apart from refraining to make an unfounded assumption about the existence of something you freely admit you can't demonstrate. Bizarre doesn't even come close to describing your 'argument'. fGfaded_Glory
February 7, 2015
February
02
Feb
7
07
2015
10:08 AM
10
10
08
AM
PDT
Mark Frank
I am stunned by the inability of the objectivists to differentiate between the person making the judgement and the person performing the action they are judging (which may occasionally be the same but often isn’t).
On the contrary, it is our ability to make that distinction that allows us to expose the poverty of your philosophy. It is you who cannot (or will not) make that distinction, as is clear from your multiplicity of definitions for the word "morality."StephenB
February 7, 2015
February
02
Feb
7
07
2015
10:02 AM
10
10
02
AM
PDT
Brent: Why is it okay for you to impose your privately and subjectively held moral values on others, in matters either small or great, when you do not have a standard by which to determine you are actually right? For most subjectivists, it's because of a sensation of a moral imperative, that some things are important enough to impose their moral judgment on others. So if someone sees a child being hurt, the sense of moral righteousness is strong enough to compel action.Zachriel
February 7, 2015
February
02
Feb
7
07
2015
10:01 AM
10
10
01
AM
PDT
Brent: Why is it okay for you to impose your privately and subjectively held moral values on others, in matters either small or great, when you do not have a standard by which to determine you are actually right? Brent, Brent, Brent, you are not paying attention. We do have a standard by which to determine who is actually right. We all do - our own personal standard. Look around you - that is precisely how the world works! For the umpteenth time, subjective morality is not the absence of a moral standard. On the contrary, there are as many standards as there are people. fGfaded_Glory
February 7, 2015
February
02
Feb
7
07
2015
09:59 AM
9
09
59
AM
PDT
That is not a necessary facet of subjectivism.
Yes, it is. In fact, it is what differentiates subjectivism from relativism and objectivism - morality is accepted as being something that lies entirely within the mind of the individual.
A subjectivist may certainly believe they know best,
Not if they are rationally consistent subjectivists, since there is nothing external or objective that their views could be the "best" in relation to.
indeed, may feel a moral imperative to impose their beliefs on others.
They can feel whatever the wish; the question is if those feelings are rationally consistent with and can be rationally justified via moral subjectivism. That psychopaths can run around calling themselves moral subjectivists and feel compelled to force their admittedly personal, subjective morality on others is not relevant to the argument at hand. The fact is that if you are a rationally consistent moral subjectivist, you certainly don't feel compelled to force what are admittedly nothing more than personal standards and views on others. That would be irrational. The rational methodology is that there is no reason to even attempt to coerce others unless there is something objectively real and important at stake.William J Murray
February 7, 2015
February
02
Feb
7
07
2015
09:59 AM
9
09
59
AM
PDT
StephenB: “moral in someone’s view,” Of course. It may mean moral in your opinion. Or it might mean moral in terms of widespread social convention. After all, people within a culture share many of the same moral views. The context will usually tell you which sense is being used. It's not that complicated.Zachriel
February 7, 2015
February
02
Feb
7
07
2015
09:56 AM
9
09
56
AM
PDT
StephenB, Better to use the word 'immoral' instead of 'wrong'. The trouble with the word 'wrong' is that it can mean different things: incorrect, when it refers to something objective, or immoral when it refers to how we judge people's actions. Under subjective morality, 'it is immoral' always means 'it is immoral in my view'. It cannot be otherwise. Very similar to 'it is beautiful', or 'it is exciting', or numerous other words that describe a personal reaction to an outside thing or event. We routinely leave out the cumbersome 'in my view' bit. This is simply the use of language, from which you can't conclude that the thing under discussion is objective. You will need much stronger arguments than that - how about some actual evidence that this objective morality actually exists, for starters? Or, failing evidence, why not specify where it exists, if anywhere else apart from in people's heads? fGfaded_Glory
February 7, 2015
February
02
Feb
7
07
2015
09:56 AM
9
09
56
AM
PDT
Mark Frank @246, You are stunned because the objectivists are not letting you get away with word games. You've already shown you know it is immoral, even by your own standard, to impose your beliefs on others when you have no objective basis for your judgment, but continue to act as if it is OK for some unfathomable (nor yet rationally explained) reason. All I'm getting are stories of scenarios that don't deal with the dilemma, and you expect us to accept them because, as far as they go, they are describing scenarios that we all face or understand. No one is saying there aren't times when it is difficult to know what is the right thing to do, or how much of a stand is warranted. The question is direct and not in the least bit a tricky one. Why is it okay for you to impose your privately and subjectively held moral values on others, in matters either small or great, when you do not have a standard by which to determine you are actually right?Brent
February 7, 2015
February
02
Feb
7
07
2015
09:54 AM
9
09
54
AM
PDT
Mark Frank
When I write “it is moral” I always mean “moral” in some person’s opinion.
Until I point out the flaw, in which case you will change your definition and say that you really meant something else.
If I fail to say whose opinion then you can assume it is my opinion- just as “this is beautiful” implies “this is beautiful in my opinion”.
Unbelievable. It happened already. In the preceding sentence, you said moral means moral in "someone's opinion." Now, you say means moral in "my opinion." It's more of the same subjectivist shuffle. So now we have your third definition: For you, "moral" can mean "moral in your view" "moral in someone's view," or "it is moral-period!" The subjectivist shuffle is a wonder to behold.StephenB
February 7, 2015
February
02
Feb
7
07
2015
09:53 AM
9
09
53
AM
PDT
William J Murray: A subjectivist should be able to recognize that they are not that other person and thus have no capacity to understand if that person’s act is immoral or not. Subjectivists are quite aware that other people may judge their own acts differently. That's rather the point actually. When someone says an act is immoral, they are referring to their own moral judgment, and yes, that can include judging the acts of others. Just because Hitler thought he was justified doesn't mean he isn't judged by others by their own moral standards, even if those standards are subjective. A toy model can be devised by placing a subjective valuation on things. Chocolate 10 Children 100 Poke in the eye -25 A hurt child -50 Busybodies -10 So intervening to prevent a child being hurt might be +50 for the prevention, -10 for bothering someone, with a possible poke in the eye by the person imposed upon -25. The net benefit is +15 or more depending on whether you get poked in the eye. There's nothing incoherent about subjectivism. It's hard to imagine why you would think so.Zachriel
February 7, 2015
February
02
Feb
7
07
2015
09:53 AM
9
09
53
AM
PDT
MF said:
I am stunned by the inability of the objectivists to differentiate between the person making the judgement and the person performing the action they are judging (which may occasionally be the same but often isn’t).
I was thinking the same thing about subjectivists; they are confusing themselves for the other person when they judge the other person's behavior wrong based on their own personal, subjective views and standards. A subjectivist should be able to recognize that they are not that other person and thus have no capacity to understand if that person's act is immoral or not. Yes, the act would be wrong for the subjectivist in question, but only the third party can say if it is wrong for him.William J Murray
February 7, 2015
February
02
Feb
7
07
2015
09:45 AM
9
09
45
AM
PDT
William J Murray: the judger agrees that his judgement is only valid for him and not valid for others or binding on others That is not a necessary facet of subjectivism. A subjectivist may certainly believe they know best, indeed, may feel a moral imperative to impose their beliefs on others.Zachriel
February 7, 2015
February
02
Feb
7
07
2015
09:45 AM
9
09
45
AM
PDT
Z said:
No. The morality of the thing is, under subjectivism, determined solely by the subjective mind of the one who is judging.
If the judgement is of a commodity held to be subjective in nature, the judger agrees that his judgement is only valid for him and not valid for others or binding on others, and certainly offers no basis for intervening in the subjective-value proclivities of others and forcing compliance to their own subjective judgements.William J Murray
February 7, 2015
February
02
Feb
7
07
2015
09:38 AM
9
09
38
AM
PDT
fG said:
No, not because I feel like it, but because I am compelled to do so by my moral standard.
And so you admit that you are willing to force what you believe to be nothing more than personal standards and views on others. Correct? Morally abhorrent.
As do you.
The difference is in what we hold "compelled to by our moral standards" to be in reference to; under moral subjectivism, that phrase means "I am willing to force what I believe to be nothing more than my personal, subjective views and standards on others". Under moral objectivism, that phrase means "I am willing to force what I believe to objectively, universally true standards on others." Same sequence of words ("compelled by our moral standards"), two entirely different meanings under the two different premises. One is obviously morally monstrous, the other a reasonable justification for at least some necessary moral interventions.
It makes zero difference if that standard exists merely in my own head or also somewhere external to all humans (where???).
I agree that it makes no difference if the objective standard actually exists or not; the monstrous nature of moral subjectivism by itself is all that is required for reasonable, good people to abandon the premise. Let's all remember that under moral subjectivism, one must logically agree that they are willing to force what they agree are nothing more than their personal views and standards on others. In my morality, it is immoral to force on others that which I hold to be nothing more than my personal views and standards.William J Murray
February 7, 2015
February
02
Feb
7
07
2015
09:30 AM
9
09
30
AM
PDT
I am stunned by the inability of the objectivists to differentiate between the person making the judgement and the person performing the action they are judging (which may occasionally be the same but often isn't).Mark Frank
February 7, 2015
February
02
Feb
7
07
2015
09:15 AM
9
09
15
AM
PDT
SB Written from a tablet and therefore brief. When I write "it is moral" I always mean "moral" in some person's opinion. If I fail to say whose opinion then you can assume it is my opinion- just as "this is beautiful" implies "this is beautiful in my opinion". On the other hand you seem to use "right for him" to mean both "right in his opinion" and "right for him do" (without specifying whose opinion) thus giving yourself the false impression of a contradiction.Mark Frank
February 7, 2015
February
02
Feb
7
07
2015
09:10 AM
9
09
10
AM
PDT
William J Murray: the morality of a thing is, under subjectivism, determined solely by the subjective mind of an actor. No. The morality of the thing is, under subjectivism, determined solely by the subjective mind of the one who is judging.Zachriel
February 7, 2015
February
02
Feb
7
07
2015
08:57 AM
8
08
57
AM
PDT
Zac,
Zachriel: Subjectivists can and do morally judge actions by others, and do so based on their own sentiments concerning morality.
You are referring to logically impaired subjectivists.
WJM: (...) the morality of a thing is, under subjectivism, determined solely by the subjective mind of an actor. No matter how one argues against, the claim that something someone else is doing “is immoral”, is a de facto agreement that some form of objective morality exists and can be used to judge the behavior of others.
Box
February 7, 2015
February
02
Feb
7
07
2015
08:47 AM
8
08
47
AM
PDT
Zachriel said:
Subjectivists can and do morally judge actions by others, and do so based on their own sentiments concerning morality.
People who call themselves moral subjectivists do those things; whether or not those activities are logically consistent with the premise of moral subjectivism is the matter under debate.William J Murray
February 7, 2015
February
02
Feb
7
07
2015
08:42 AM
8
08
42
AM
PDT
William J Murry: He can judge whether or not the act would be immoral for himself – IOW, how he feels about committing such an act, but he has no capacity to judge whether the act would be immoral for the other guy, since the morality of a thing is, under subjectivism, determined solely by the subjective mind of an actor. Subjectivists can and do morally judge actions by others, and do so based on their own sentiments concerning morality.Zachriel
February 7, 2015
February
02
Feb
7
07
2015
08:34 AM
8
08
34
AM
PDT
WJM said:
...because the morality of an act is entirely determined by the subjective state of mind of the actor.
fG said:
Of course not.
Then you are rejecting moral subjectivism.
Every one of us decide for ourselves the morality of everything that everybody does (including ourselves).
This stated, trivial observation has zero relevance to the argument at hand. The question is not "how do we act", but rather "is how we act in correlation to our stated beliefs?" Yes, as a matter of fact we judge the moral behavior of others as right or wrong; the problem for subjectivists is that such moral judging is not logically derivable from their premise. The best a logically consistent moral subjectivist can say is that such behavior would not be moral if they themselves behaved that way and admit that they simply don't know if it is moral for the other guy or not.
Since morality is subjective it is to expected that different people come to different conclusions – as indeed we often observe in real life.
People come to different conclusions about all sorts of things both objective and subjective in nature. Because people reach different conclusions about a thing, or describe it differently, is not evidence the thing itself doesn't exist. No matter how one argues against, the claim that something someone else is doing "is immoral", is a de facto agreement that some form of objective morality exists and can be used to judge the behavior of others.William J Murray
February 7, 2015
February
02
Feb
7
07
2015
08:23 AM
8
08
23
AM
PDT
Mark Frank
That’s a misunderstanding of subjectivism. There is no “morality of his actions” independent of a specific person’s opinion. The torturer’s person convictions determine his view of what is right. I have my different view of the morality of his actions. Period.
That's really silly. The phrase, "in his view, it is right" means exactly the same thing as "it is right, for him." The problem is, and always has been, that you keep switching formulas in mid flight, looking for ways to say one thing and mean another. In the beginning, you say "in his view, it is right," and "in my view, it is wrong." So far, so good. But then you begin to obfuscate and equivocate by retaining the first part ["in his view, it is right,"] and transforming the second part from ["in my view, it is wrong"] into ["it is wrong.---period."] Then, when I remind you of the change, you turn right around and change back again, saying that, "it is wrong" means "it is wrong, in my view." So, when you want to defend your subjectivism, you use "in my view, it is wrong," but when you want to avoid the irrational trappings of subjectivism, you use "it is wrong---period." The subjectivist shuffle is a wonder to behold.StephenB
February 7, 2015
February
02
Feb
7
07
2015
08:15 AM
8
08
15
AM
PDT
Zachriel said:
That is incorrect. A subjectivist can coherently judge acts as moral or not regardless of the state of the actor’s own moral sensibility.
He can judge whether or not the act would be immoral for himself - IOW, how he feels about committing such an act, but he has no capacity to judge whether the act would be immoral for the other guy, since the morality of a thing is, under subjectivism, determined solely by the subjective mind of an actor. IOW, the subjectivist can consider it immoral in terms of if he himself were the actor, but would require the subjective mind of others to determine if the act is immoral for them, because it is each subjective mind that determines what is moral or immoral for themselves, just as it is each subjective mind that determines what is and is not beautiful for themselves. Again, their behavior may be subjectively repugnant or distasteful, but calling it "wrong", as SB has pointed out, is a category error that cannot be used in that way in subjective matters. I cannot be wrong about what I prefer, and no one else can (logically, with any merit) tell me that I am wrong about subjective, personal choice matters. Being "wrong", in that sense, requires a presumed objective component to the judgement. Otherwise, to each their own.William J Murray
February 7, 2015
February
02
Feb
7
07
2015
08:13 AM
8
08
13
AM
PDT
William J Murray: Unless your subjective moral principle is that you can force your subjective preferences on others if you wish (“because I feel like it”), your morality is logically inconsistent with your behavior. If that is indeed your moral principle, your morality is self-evidently abhorrent. No, not because I feel like it, but because I am compelled to do so by my moral standard. As do you. It makes zero difference if that standard exists merely in my own head or also somewhere external to all humans (where???). Given that after all these discussions still not a single objectivist has raised to the challenge of demonstrating that their objectove morality actually exists, it is safe to say that they can't and that it doesn't. And I had to laugh about your 'self-evidently abhorrent'. 'Self-evident' is the magic 'poof' of the objectivist - the last resort when running out of arguments. A bit like you guys see 'emergence'. fGfaded_Glory
February 7, 2015
February
02
Feb
7
07
2015
08:13 AM
8
08
13
AM
PDT
William J Murray: because the morality of an act is entirely determined by the subjective state of mind of the actor. Of course not. Every one of us decides for ourselves the morality of everything that everybody does (including ourselves). Since morality is subjective it is to expected that different people come to different conclusions - as indeed we often observe in real life. fGfaded_Glory
February 7, 2015
February
02
Feb
7
07
2015
08:04 AM
8
08
04
AM
PDT
Silver Asiatic: I believe some people mean by “objective morality” the same as “objectively true, correct morality”. For me, I believe the term “objective moral code” refers to several codes which are objective in nature and which can be evaluated as better or worse based on their authority. No one doubts the existence of moral codes. The question is whether morality exists independent of human sensibilities. William J Murray: You can logically say it would be wrong for you to commit the act, but you cannot logically say it is wrong for him to commit the act because the morality of an act is entirely determined by the subjective state of mind of the actor. That is incorrect. A subjectivist can coherently judge acts as moral or not regardless of the state of the actor's own moral sensibility.Zachriel
February 7, 2015
February
02
Feb
7
07
2015
07:04 AM
7
07
04
AM
PDT
fg said:
It is right from his viewpoint. From my viewpoint it is not. This is pefectly possible without any contradiction.
You can say there is no contradiction, but there is if you are making a statement about the morality of his act. You can logicallyt say it would be wrong for you to commit the act, but you cannot logically say it is wrong for him to commit the act because the morality of an act is entirely determined by the subjective state of mind of the actor. Just as you cannot say it is wrong for someone to buy a painting you consider ugly - you can only say that it would be wrong for you. Whether it is wrong for someone else can only be subjectively determined by that person.
I say he is wrong, he says he is right.
Under moral subjectivism, you have no logical grounds by which to say he is wrong because you are not him and don't operate by his perceptions; all you can logically say is that it would be wrong for you. Otherwise, you are erroneously extending your own personal perspective as if it provided an objective basis for the evaluation of the behavior of others.
So what? When I act to stop him, I always act from my own viewpoint. We all do.
We act in all matters "from our own viewpoint" whether we are avoiding a brick wall or choosing a flavor of ice cream. The issue is whether our actions are in accordance with the idea that "what we are acting in relation to" is believed to an objective or subjective commodity.
Subjective morality does not mean that one has to abandon one’s own viewpoint when it comes to moral actions, merely because someone else has a different view. That would be nonsense.
Logically, subjective morality means that one must accept that they do not know what is moral for others to do because they are not that person, just as you cannot know what flavor of ice cream someone else should buy or what kind of paintings they should decorate their home with. You many not like their choices and think them repugnant, but their choices, under subjectivism, cannot be "wrong". As a subjectivist, you should realize you personal moral views are not binding on others and thus you have no standing to intervene in their affairs, any more than you have logical standing to stop someone from buying a painting you think is ugly. Unless your subjective moral principle is that you can force your subjective preferences on others if you wish ("because I feel like it"), your morality is logically inconsistent with your behavior. If that is indeed your moral principle, your morality is self-evidently abhorrent.
When I decide to act on my moral conviction, whether or not the person I am acting against thinks he is right or wrong is not an issue.
IOW, you are willing to force what you believe are nothing more than personal, subjective convictions on others for no more reason, ultimately, than because you feel like it. If that's your morality, it's self-evidently monstrous.
Him thinking he is right doesn’t make him right from my point of view.
Him thinking he is morally right, under logically-consistent moral subjectivism, necessarily makes him right from the point of view of a logically consistent moral subjectivist. In fact, him thinking he is morally right is the very definition of what makes a thing morally right under moral subjectivism. You have no logical capacity to think that he is wrong under moral subjectivism because there is no means (under subjectivism) for him to be wrong; the very fact that you think he is "wrong" demonstrates your operational, de facto moral objectivism. If you were an actual, operational moral subjectivist, you would treat morality as you do any other commodity believed to be entirely subjective in nature - to each their own.
Everybody, including you, who makes moral choices always does this only from their own point of view, never from somebody else’s. There is no contradiction.
That we all do things in all circumstances (objective or subjective) "from our own point of view" is a trivial, irrelevant observation. The question isn't if we do things "from our point of view", but rather if our self-described "point of view" is consistent with our behavior. You can claim that morality is subjective all day long, but you cannot act as if it is subjective, and your arguments in support of that position are not rationally sound.William J Murray
February 7, 2015
February
02
Feb
7
07
2015
06:20 AM
6
06
20
AM
PDT
Brent: Further, can you KNOW for 100% certain you are not incorrect about there not being an objective moral standard? You know you you cannot be 100% certain, and as soon as you admit this, as you must, then you are even more squarely in the mathematics teacher’s position. There could be an objective answer, but you aren’t able to find it. The reason why is the math teacher is wrong to mark the error is that he can actually be 100% certain that there is a correct answer, but he just can't be bothered to go and look it up. That is the negligence for which he can be faulted. This is really very different from someone who doesn't know for certain that there is no objective morality, but is very sure that it is not possible to actually find out what it is. In that situation all anyone can do is make the best of one's personal judgement. Your analogy fails. fGfaded_Glory
February 7, 2015
February
02
Feb
7
07
2015
05:49 AM
5
05
49
AM
PDT
1 2 3 4 5 6 … 12