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Why Does It Matter? Because Some Calculations Must Be Literally Unthinkable

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I despise Henry Kissinger. He is an evil man. I am currently reading his On China (2011), and I was reminded of just how evil he is when I read his apology for Zhou Enlai (pp. 241-43). For those who do not remember, as premier of the PPR during the tumultuous 60s and 70s, Zhou was Mao’s chief henchman. The world will never know how many people Mao killed. Estimates range from 40 to 80 million, and Zhou was at his side implementing his policies every step of the way. Of this henchman to a genocidal maniac Kissinger writes:

Surely Zhou’s methods of political survival involved lending his administrative skill to the execution of policies that he may well have found personally distasteful . . .

This makes me want to puke. What kind of sociopath uses the word “distasteful” to describe someone’s response to participation in genocide? It will come as no surprise that Kissinger reveres Machiavelli above all other theorists, and nowhere is this more plain than when he continues[in this passage Zhou is the advisor and Mao is the prince in view ]:

The advisor to the prince occasionally faces the dilemma of balancing the benefits of the ability to alter events against the possibility of exclusion, should he bring his objections to any one policy to a head. How does the ability to modify the prince’s prevailing conduct weigh against the moral onus of participation in his policies? How does one measure the element of nuance over time against the claims of absolutes in the immediate? What is the balance between the cumulative impact of moderating trends against that of a grand (and probably doomed) gesture?

How Kissinger answers these questions and his ultimate assessment of Zhou is not in doubt; he called Zhou “one of the two or three most impressive men I have ever met.” God help us. How could we have let a man who could write these things into the very highest echelons of our leadership for a period spanning over five decades?

Kissinger implies that Zhou was a reluctant participant and a moderating influence to Mao’s reign of terror. This view is hotly disputed. In his Mao Zedong and the Cultural Revolution, for example, Angang Hu argues that Zhou’s support, far from moderating the Cultural Revolution, kept it going, and that Zhou was Mao’s enabler, not his moderator.

But let us set that argument aside, because ultimately it is morally irrelevant. Assume for the sake of argument that there is some support for the proposition that Hermann Göring was a moderating influence to the most terrible excesses of the Third Reich. If Hitler had conquered Europe, would it have been appropriate for an American statesman to later praise Hermann Göring and even sympathize with him for the terrible burden of “weighing nuance against absolutes” that he had to bear. I admit the analogy is not quite apt, because Mao killed tens of millions more people than Hitler did. Still, the very idea is absurd.

The “dilemma” Kissinger poses is a false dilemma. The kinds of calculations Kissinger has in mind are morally repugnant. Indeed, they should be unthinkable. Moreover, the measuring to which Kissinger alludes is not only morally loathsome; it is also self-referentially incoherent. It is in the very nature of “absolutes” that they cannot be “measured” or “balanced” against anything else (and most especially against “nuance,” whatever that means).

Absolutes admit no calculation. When faced with the choice of whether to engage in formal cooperation with evil of unspeakable proportions, the only moral choice is to refuse to cooperate. Let us say for the sake of argument that Zhou was in fact given the choice of being Mao’s henchman, in which case “only” 60 million people would die, and refusing to be his henchman, in which case 65 million people would die. Still, the only moral choice was for him to refuse to cooperate with Mao’s evil even if more people (including Zhou himself) would die.

This is not a “train switch” scenario. Moral philosopher’s love to talk about the hapless schmo standing at a train switch. An unstoppable runaway train is coming down the track. If the schmo lets it stay on its present track, 100 people will get run over and die. If he pulls the switch and shunts the train to another track, only 50 people will die. The obvious answer to this dilemma is to pull the switch. If death is inevitable due to uncontrollable forces of nature (in this case the forces of gravity and inertia), the only moral choice is the one that leads to the fewest deaths.

How is this different from Zhou’s non-dilemma? The answer is that the Cultural Revolution was not inevitable. It resulted from the conscious choices of moral agents. If all moral agents had refused to participate, not a single person would have died, because the CR would never have happened.

Some of my readers might remember the movie Sophie’s Choice (or the novel of the same name). The eponymous choice of the movie occurred upon Sophie’s arrival at Auschwitz. A guard forced her to choose which one of her two children would be gassed and which would proceed to the labor camp. If she refused to choose, both children would be killed. What was Sophie to do? Is it not the moral choice to choose one of the children to die so that at least one may live? Sophie chooses her son to live and her daughter to die. Sophie’s choice was profoundly immoral. The only moral choice is to refuse to choose even if this means both children must die. By choosing, Sophie entered into formal cooperation with the guard’s evil. And it is always evil to engage in formal cooperation with evil. Some calculations must be unthinkable. One must never engage in profound evil even if one could somehow attempt to justify it with Kissinger’s balancing act. Fiat justitia ruat caelum (“Let justice be done though the heavens fall”)

What does this have to do with Zhou? Just this. Zhou’s choice was Sophie’s choice writ large.

Why does this all matter? I was prompted to write this post by an exchange with Mark Frank.

I wrote:

You know for a certain fact that torturing an infant for personal pleasure is evil at all places, at all times, for all people.

Mark replied:

I disagree. I don’t believe you know moral judgments as “facts” so I would say that as it stands it is false.

Mark added:

I stressed that it was because I don’t regard moral judgments as facts . . . I think they are opinions not facts.

Finally, Mark said:

I don’t know the innermost psyche of the Incas who performed child sacrifices but it seems quite possible they did it for personal pleasure and thought it was morally OK.

No Mark. You are wrong. Hugely, monstrously, horribly wrong.

It absolutely must be an objective fact that torturing an infant for personal pleasure is evil at all places, at all times, for all people or it is not a fact at all. It is a binary question. Yes/No. The only way the proposition can ever be true is if it is indeed an objective fact. The very act of suggesting that the issue is a matter of opinion as opposed to objective fact is immoral because it renders the proposition false. In other words, to even say that it is not unthinkable for the proposition to be untrue is profoundly immoral, because it is equivalent to saying the proposition is false.

Therefore, even assuming for the sake of argument that some Inca thought it was OK to torture infants for pleasure, it does not follow that his opinion on the subject is entitled to any weight whatsoever. Would we credit our hapless Inca’s views if his opinion were that 1+1=3? Of course, not. When the Inca is wrong about objective fact, we must not hesitate to reject his views categorically even if someone might accuse us of being “intolerant.” Error has no rights. The only moral position is to say that it is literally unthinkable for the proposition to ever be false.

As Zhoe’s non-dilemma was not a matter of calculation but of simple courage to do the only right thing, so too this proposition can never be a matter that could possibly vary due to circumstance, calculation or opinion. It is always true or it is never true.

It is immoral to say that the proposition “torturing an infant for personal pleasure is evil at all places, at all times, for all people” is up for grabs. Why is it evil? Because someone might believe you of course! By saying this you have undermined the “unthinkable-ness” of the converse of the proposition. And when you do that, you have opened a door that must always remain shut.

Comments
StephenB: According to your subjectivist philosophy, it is the torturer’s personal convictions that determine the morality of his actions. If he strongly believes torturing babies is moral, then it is moral for him. This is not his philosophy or my philosophy; this is your philosophy. Thus, when you also say that it is not moral for him to torture babies, you are contradicting yourself. You are saying that it is right for him and that it is wrong for him. There is no question about it. It’s an open and shut case. It is right from his viewpoint. From my viewpoint it is not. This is pefectly possible without any contradiction. I say he is wrong, he says he is right. So what? When I act to stop him, I always act from my own viewpoint. We all do. Subjective morality does not mean that one has to abandon one's own viewpoint when it comes to moral actions, merely because someone else has a different view. That would be nonsense. When I decide to act on my moral conviction, whether or not the person I am acting against thinks he is right or wrong is not an issue. Him thinking he is right doesn't make him right from my point of view. I can still say that he is wrong. Everybody, including you, who makes moral choices always does this only from their own point of view, never from somebody else's. There is no contradiction. fGfaded_Glory
February 7, 2015
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MF said:
The decision as to whether it right to make someone act as though your beliefs or opinions are true is of course a moral judgement and many different factors go into a moral judgement which have to be balanced against each other – I assume you accept this?
Above, MF explicitly admits that moral judgements and interventions thereof are moral decisions where one acts, and forces others to act, as if those beliefs/views are "true", meaning, I can only assume, objectively valid. MF, is it morally acceptable to force others to comply with your views if you do not believe your views have any objective basis whatsoever?William J Murray
February 7, 2015
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MF said:
Rubbish – I make my own assessment as to what they doing is morally right or wrong. Otherwise I would have to restrict my moral judgements to what I did and noone else! My assessment might be different from theirs but that is subjectivism.
This is precisely where your blind spot is, MF, where your insistence on the ideological truth of moral subjectivism blinds you to the logical contradiction that is readily apparent. This is precisely what moral subjectivism necessarily means; that you only know what is moral for you; you cannot know what is moral for others, in the same sense that you can only know what is beautiful to you and you cannot know what is beautiful to others. You can know what painting you should buy; you cannot know what painting they should buy. They may buy a painting you wouldn't buy, but under subjectivism, that is up to them. You may consider the painting they buy really ugly and offensive, but you cannot consider it the "wrong" painting for them to buy. Under subjectivism, "wrong" can only mean "wrong for me" and cannot mean "wrong for them". This is why you cannot actually act like a moral subjectivist unless you are a sociopath.William J Murray
February 7, 2015
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I don’t think even you deny the existence of internal, subjective moral norms. Therefore, I don’t have to prove their existence.
That's not what I challenged. I challenged the assertion that morality refers only to subjective commodities. If it is your assertion that there is no objective moral referential commodity, then it is your obligation to support that assertion when challenged regardless of what you think I do or do not deny.
It’s a different problem that you don’t like the idea that there is no other source of morality. You propose that there is some kind of eternal and universal moral code, so please prove it. I don’t feel obliged to provide any proofs of non-existence.
I have only ever proposed objective morality as a logical premise for logical examination - just as I've proposed the premise of moral subjectivism for similar examination. I've never asserted that morality is in fact an objective commodity. I don't know if it is objective or not and, frankly, it doesn't matter if it is or not, because as a practical matter we all have to behave as if it is anyway.William J Murray
February 7, 2015
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WJM "You cannot determine what is moral or not moral for them to do, because you are not them. " Rubbish - I make my own assessment as to what they doing is morally right or wrong. Otherwise I would have to restrict my moral judgements to what I did and noone else! My assessment might be different from theirs but that is subjectivism.Mark Frank
February 7, 2015
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Brent  
You’ve shown clearly that you understand the concept of needing an objective standard by which to impose your beliefs on someone else, no matter how you feel. What is the logic behind not needing that standard at times?
I am going to be going away in about an hour so this may be my last comment in an increasingly tortuous and repetitive debate. The decision as to whether it right to make someone act as though your beliefs or opinions are true is of course a moral judgement and many different factors go into a moral judgement which have to be balanced against each other – I assume you accept this?   In the case of a teacher marking a student the cost of getting it wrong i.e. marking the student as wrong when he is in fact right is rather high with consequences for the student’s self-esteem, the reputation of the exam, etc. while the cost of admitting you are not sure is rather low. In the case of believing there is a bomb in the building the costs are the other way round. Hence it is morally wrong to make the student act on your belief in the first case and not in the second.  Note that this is nothing particularly about needing an objective standard – it is simply balancing the costs of outcomes.   When it comes to a subjective opinion you are similarly balancing things – although they are slightly different things.  Although I believe it is morally wrong to be late for dinner I am not that worked up about it – it is not worth the cost of forcing someone to be punctual (embarrassment, damage to our relationship etc.)  I much more strongly believe it is wrong to kill people and I am quite prepared to use considerable force (and take the cost) to make someone comply to my subjective opinion on this. You can see a similar balance on other subjective issues. I would be prepared to use various strategies (although probably not violence) to stop someone sabotaging a performance of King Lear which in my subjective opinion was brilliant but they did not. I would not be prepared to impose my views on ice-cream.Mark Frank
February 7, 2015
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SB said:
According to your subjectivist philosophy, it is the torturer’s personal convictions that determine the morality of his actions. If he strongly believes torturing babies is moral, then it is moral for him. This is not his philosophy or my philosophy; this is your philosophy.
MF responds
That’s a misunderstanding of subjectivism. There is no “morality of his actions” independent of a specific person’s opinion. The torturer’s person convictions determine his view of what is right. I have my different view of the morality of his actions. Period. Do you really not understand that?
MF, if morality is subjective in nature, then only an individual can determine what is moral for them. You cannot determine what is moral or not moral for them to do, because you are not them. So the statement "it is wrong for them to do X" is logically incoherent under moral relativism - you cannot possibly know this because you are not them with their moral views and personal perspective doing X. Under subjectivism, the only thing such a statement can possibly refer to is a recognition that, under your moral views personal perspective, it would be wrong for you to do what they are doing. "What they are doing is morally wrong" is thus shown to be at best a misleading statement under subjectivism, better stated as "What they are doing would be morally wrong for me to do, but I have no idea if it is morally wrong for them to do." You might not like what they do; you might find it distasteful or ugly, but if morality is in fact subjective in nature, you cannot pass judgement on the moral quality of their behavior because you are not them. To use your "beauty" example, if someone else is going to buy a painting because they find it to be beautiful, you cannot logically state they are buying the wrong painting and justify intervening in their purchase. If you hold considerations such as "beauty" to be subjective, then even if you consider the painting ugly, you accept that your concept of beauty is not binding on others and you leave them to their own subjective tastes. You can say they are not buying the painting you would buy, but you cannot rationally say they are buying the "wrong" painting because you would understand and accept that the "right" or "wrong" of it depends entirely upon that person's individual, personal preference and not on your concept of "beauty". You are using the terms "right" and "wrong" in an inappropriate way. If moral=beauty and immoral=ugly, then the "wrongness" of any painting purchase can only be determined by the individual buyer; you, as an outside observer, cannot determine the rightness or wrongness of the purchases of others. You have no rational means by which to claim they have made the wrong purchase based on your own preferences.William J Murray
February 7, 2015
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Mark @220, You've given no good reason for this. You've shown clearly that you understand the concept of needing an objective standard by which to impose your beliefs on someone else, no matter how you feel. What is the logic behind not needing that standard at times? You keep giving situations and hoping that I'll accept them. I want you to explain the relevant difference when it comes to some situation where you not only don't know of any objective standard, but emphatically insist one doesn't even exist.Brent
February 7, 2015
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#222 Yaaaawn.... How many times has this been asked and answered above?Piotr
February 7, 2015
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#218, WJM, I don't think even you deny the existence of internal, subjective moral norms. Therefore, I don't have to prove their existence. It's a different problem that you don't like the idea that there is no other source of morality. You propose that there is some kind of eternal and universal moral code, so please prove it. I don't feel obliged to provide any proofs of non-existence.Piotr
February 7, 2015
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Piotr said:
Why should this be the case, especially if we don’t know whether “an objective answer” exists at all?
So, you're saying you're okay with insisting someone is wrong and forcing compliance with what you consider "right" without at least believing that you are "right" and they are "wrong" in some objectively valid way?William J Murray
February 7, 2015
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Piotr, I was having a little fun at Mark Frank's expense. We sometimes don't know whether an equation has a solution. Not all do.Brent
February 7, 2015
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#213 Brent That is correct logic but, as I said in #210, I dispute your premiss. Sometimes it is wrong and sometimes it isn't depending on the circumstances.Mark Frank
February 7, 2015
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Graham2, I was gonna just let this go, but . . .
It would be good if the objectivists could give us some evidence for their belief that objective morality exists.
Could you give us some evidence for numbers? Think about this. UDEditors: As we've pointed out above, Graham2 seems incapable of reflection. Your plea to him to "think" will fall on deaf ears. Sad.Brent
February 7, 2015
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Piotr said:
Are you demanding that we should demonstrate the non-existence of objective (universal, human-independent) moral standards? Sorry, but the burden of the proof is on your shoulders.
The burden of proof is on any assertion. Asserting that morality is subjective is still an assertion; if you cannot support such an assertion, retract it. I have never asserted that morality is objective in nature; my only arguments here have been that everyone (except sociopaths) act as if morality refers to an objective commodity (hence rights and obligations to act, forcing compliance on others). I have made arguments about the logical coherence of the two competing perspectives, not about whether or not either are the factual state of affairs. I do not know if morality is objective or subjective in nature; what I do know is that I must act as if it is objective in nature. So must all non-sociopaths, even if they intellectually believe morality is subjective.William J Murray
February 7, 2015
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Brent: An implication of the form (A => A) => A is always trivially equivalent to A, so the first two paragraphs are superfluous. You can leave elementary logic alone. You are merely stipulating that the following is universally true:
It is morally wrong to insist someone is wrong when we don’t know an objective answer as to whether they are wrong.
Why should this be the case, especially if we don't know whether "an objective answer" exists at all?Piotr
February 7, 2015
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Another scary thing about moral subjectivism is that one cannot be "wrong" about their moral views, because there is no possible external arbiter. The logically-consistent subjectivist has no rational argument to make against anyone else's morality because there is no objective, quantifiable moral commodity to refer to in making such a case. All that is left is simply attempting to manipulate others into agreeing with their own personal, moral views for the benefit of their own personal desires and preferences. How can such an enterprise be considered remotely moral? Moral subjectivism makes the de facto case that manipulating others to pursue ones own personal interests is not only morally acceptable, but is in fact the essence of any moral "debate" - nothing more, ultimately, than rhetoric and manipulation for personal gain.William J Murray
February 7, 2015
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fG @204, 205, WJM says exactly what I would. At least we are consistent within our own framework. You are hopelessly inconsistent. Further, can you KNOW for 100% certain you are not incorrect about there not being an objective moral standard? You know you you cannot be 100% certain, and as soon as you admit this, as you must, then you are even more squarely in the mathematics teacher's position. There could be an objective answer, but you aren't able to find it. And note, I predicted this very misdirect would come. I'm only focusing on your internal inconsistency and contradictions. Deal with that first. You can't.Brent
February 7, 2015
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#211, WJM Are you demanding that we should demonstrate the non-existence of objective (universal, human-independent) moral standards? Sorry, but the burden of the proof is on your shoulders.Piotr
February 7, 2015
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If it is morally wrong to insist someone is wrong when we don't know an objective answer as to whether they are wrong, then it is morally wrong to insist someone is wrong when we don't know an objective answer as to whether they are wrong. It is morally wrong to insist someone is wrong when we don't know an objective answer as to whether they are wrong. Therefore, it is morally wrong to insist someone is wrong when we don't know an objective answer as to whether they are wrong. I think this is elementary logic?Brent
February 7, 2015
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SB
According to your subjectivist philosophy, it is the torturer’s personal convictions that determine the morality of his actions. If he strongly believes torturing babies is moral, then it is moral for him. This is not his philosophy or my philosophy; this is your philosophy.
That’s a misunderstanding of subjectivism. There is no “morality of his actions” independent of a specific person’s opinion. The torturer’s person convictions determine his view of what is right. I have my different view of the morality of his actions. Period. Do you really not understand that?Mark Frank
February 7, 2015
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Graham2 said:
It would be good if the objectivists could give us some evidence for their belief that objective morality exists.
What is your evidence that morality is in fact only subjective in nature?William J Murray
February 7, 2015
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Brent #203   Two things 1) To be clear – you can never insist that someone believe or have an opinion. You can only insist that they act as though they had that belief or opinion. 2) Your example was set in a specific context so I was able to make a subjective judgement. That doesn’t mean it is always wrong  to insist that another person act on your belief as opposed to theirs. If as a teacher I am pretty certain but not sure that there is a bomb in the building I will insist that the student act as though I am right even if they disagree. When I marking their test score that is different. The same is true of subjective opinions. Sometimes I find it morally acceptable to force others to act according to my opinion, sometimes I don’t. If they are about to murder someone - yes. If they are going to be late for dinner - no. As I said I have been through this before – please don’t make me do it again.Mark Frank
February 7, 2015
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Mark Frank
You are confusing the person making the judgement with the person who is the object of the judgement.
I am sorry, Mark, but you are the one who is confused.
I am the person making the judgement.
You are the person making two contrary judgments: According to your subjectivist philosophy, it is the torturer’s personal convictions that determine the morality of his actions. If he strongly believes torturing babies is moral, then it is moral for him. This is not his philosophy or my philosophy; this is your philosophy. Thus, when you also say that it is not moral for him to torture babies, you are contradicting yourself. You are saying that it is right for him and that it is wrong for him. There is no question about it. It’s an open and shut case.StephenB
February 7, 2015
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It would be good if the objectivists could give us some evidence for their belief that objective morality exists. UDEditors: The evidence has been pushed in your face time and again. That you make this statement again demonstrates your inability to reflect. Sad; very sad.Graham2
February 7, 2015
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The willingness to personally force on others what one believes and argues to be nothing more than a subjective feeling/personal preference, no matter how strongly felt, is monstrously immoral no matter how one attempts to intellectually rationalize it. At least moral objectivism offers the framework for the possibility that forcing compliance in important moral situations is a morally and rationally justifiable exercise. The subjectivist argument that it is okay to force on others one's personal preferences/strong feelings is, as Mr. Arrington points out, a dangerous and scary message. And, that is the very message Mark and others here are promoting; it is okay to force on others that which you believe to be nothing more objective in nature than personal feelings and preferences.William J Murray
February 7, 2015
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#200 Brent   You are suffering from the same confusion.  You are using “right for him” to mean two different things:   * Right in his opinion * Right for him to do it (without specifying whose opinion)   I will try to illustrate this in your comment. My additions in bold.
When SB says, “According to your philosophy, if a subjectivist believes that it is moral for him (in his opinion) to torture babies, then it is, by your standard (moral in my opinion), moral for him (moral for him to do it),”
This is not true. Subjectivists certainly don’t hold that if it is moral in one person’s opinion then it is moral another person’s opinion.  
you immediately jump to the fact that you don’t believe it is moral for him (in my opinion it is not moral for him to do it) because you personally believe it to be morally wrong conduct .
  I don’t see the jump. That is my opinion.  
But SB is saying, rightly, that, according to your philosophy which states that morality is subjective to each individual, you are both implicitly and, often, explicitly, saying that it is right for him in that he only has his own personal moral compass to consult with.
I struggle with what this sentence means. As a subjectivist I say that his opinion will be based on his own “moral compass” and there is no definitive objective standard. However, I am not saying that therefore if he thinks he is right then I think he is right.  
When you are confronted you jump between two ideas of “right for him” to suit your argument. You are indeed, even emphatically, saying, “it is right for him and it is wrong for him.”
I was trying  hard to distinguish two ideas of “right for him” but I think it may a different distinction to the one your are making. I am confused as to what your two ideas are but I think they may a distinction between my personal idea  of what is right for him and some other idea of “right for him” which does not belong to anyone. The second concept does not exist from a subjectivist point of view.  
Again, drop the pretense about how your idea of morality is as robust as the objectivist and your problem immediately goes away. The new problem would be, then, that even you start to see Barry’s monster in your bathroom mirror.
I don’t know what you mean by robust. If you mean it is not objective then that goes without saying. If you mean it is not passionate and based on reasons then I strongly disagree.Mark Frank
February 7, 2015
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Brent, I see that while I was writing my post you answered Mark Frank exactly as I predicted. The truth is that the objectivist has exactly the same problem. Since they can be mistaken in their interpretation of the objective moral code (ref. Inca's and Polish philosophers and lawyers from earlier discussions), they would not be justified either in pointing a gun at someone when they think he is violating objective morality, BECAUSE THEY CANNOT BE SURE. In other words, this line of reasoning leads nowhere for everybody. Exactly like last-Thursdayism. fGfaded_Glory
February 7, 2015
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Brent: If I am teaching a student some equation and the student gives an answer that I don’t THINK is right, but I’m not sure either, is it fair for me to mark the student’s answer as wrong before I verify? And if I am not able to verify, am I then justified in insisting that the student is wrong? Again: Is it, according to your own subjective morality, moral to insist that one IS wrong when you don’t know if they are wrong, even if privately you strongly believe they are? Brent, I can answer the questions but I do not see them as equivalent in the context of the discussion about morality. You think they are, because you are an objectivist who thinks there is a 'true' answer out there somewhere on moral questions. I am a subjectivist who thinks there is no such thing, which makes the classroom scenario very different from a moral problem. - In the classroom the teacher should check the answer before marking the student's answer. If he doesn't do that, he is being unfair to mark it as wrong. - When I know someone is wrong, for instance when he is TBFF, I will insist that he is wrong. When I am unsure if someone is wrong, for instance in the Sophie's choice scenario, I would not insist that she is wrong if she makes a choice that I would not. I would recognise that the situation doesn't have a single correct answer and would respect their choice under the circumstances. Morality involves making judgements and in many cases things are not black and white. If I insist someone is wrong even though my inner voice has some doubts about that, I am overstating my case and that would not be right. The topic would then benefit from further analysis, discussion and reflection before speaking out strongly one way or another. These are my honest answers, which you are free to respect or ridicule. I now expect you to counter by saying that since I can't know for sure if objective morality exist, I am overstating my case whenever I insist someone is wrong. I would consider that equivalent to arguing that since we don't know for sure that the world wasn't created last Thursday, we're overstating our case when we say that Napoleon really existed. Frankly, I lost interest in such nonsense since I was about 18 or so. Nobody has ever demonstrated that an objective morality exists. It is an empty claim, exactly like saying that the world was created last Thursday. For all practical purposes it doesn't matter if there exists an objective morality out there somewhere when we have no access to it and can't determine what it says. It is therefore justified to ignore that possibility when it comes to making our moral judgements in real life, something we have to do using our best subjective judgements. fGfaded_Glory
February 7, 2015
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Well, you've really changed the question, but this will do anyway. Am I justified to mark an answer wrong when I do not know the objective answer? You say no, in your subjective opinion, I am not (and I agree in my objective opinion ;) ). So your stance is that when one does not know an objective answer they are not justified --- are doing an injustice and acting immoral --- in insisting another is wrong; again, according to your own subjective morality. Now you made it a point to say "because there is an objective right answer," and I understand why you said it. That doesn't alleviate your problem though. You say that it is only immoral to insist one is wrong --- or like I had been saying above earlier, to impose your sense of morality on another --- if there is an objectively known standard somewhere, even if we don't happen to know the relevant way which it may presently apply. How on God's green earth do you reconcile, then, imposing your subjective moral values on another --- remember, to the point of pointing a gun at someone --- if you not only don't know, but for good grief CANNOT know, and even INSIST UNTIL YOU'RE BLUE IN THE FACE THAT THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS, AN OBJECTIVE ANSWER??? --- So, you have it: It is morally wrong to insist another is wrong about something, no matter how strongly you feel they are, when there is presumably an objective answer out there, even if no one knows it. It magically becomes morally acceptable, however, to insist that someone is wrong --- even pointing a gun at them to get their undivided attention --- when there is no objective standard to which to turn. --- That is nonsense. If it is immoral to insist someone is wrong when there is an objective standard, but we're not sure how the standard may apply to that 'someone's' case, then it is a MORE certain fact that it is immoral to do so in cases where no objective standard even exists. Your subjectivism is internally inconsistent and contradictory --- sigh!, again, because you are attempting to insist it is as robust as an objectivist morality. It can never be. Check that mirror, Mark.Brent
February 7, 2015
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