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Why is Barry Arrington Stifling Dissent at UD?

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If you visit some of our more vociferous opponents’ websites that is the question being asked. The answer, of course, is that I am not stifling rational argument on this site. In fact, just the opposite is true; my purpose has been to weed out those who refuse to engage in rational argument so that rational argument can be pursued by those who remain. Since, however, recent modifications to this site’s moderation policy have caused such a brouhaha, I feel compelled to lay out a formal defense.

1. The Rules of Thought.

The rules of thought are the first principles of right reason. Those rules are:

The Law of Identity: An object is the same as itself.

The Law of Non-contradiction: Contradictory statements cannot both at the same time be true.

The Law of the Excluded Middle: For any proposition, either that proposition is true or its negation is true.

Importantly, the second two laws really boil down to the first law. As the Wikipedia article explains:

The law of non-contradiction and the law of excluded middle are not separate laws per se, but correlates of the law of identity. That is to say, they are two interdependent and complementary principles that inhere naturally (implicitly) within the law of identity, as its essential nature. To understand how these supplementary laws relate to the law of identity, one must recognize the dichotomizing nature of the law of identity. By this I mean that whenever we ‘identify’ a thing as belonging to a certain class or instance of a class, we intellectually set that thing apart from all the other things in existence which are ‘not’ of that same class or instance of a class. In other words, the proposition, “A is A and A is not ~A” (law of identity) intellectually partitions a universe of discourse (the domain of all things) into exactly two subsets, A and ~A, and thus gives rise to a dichotomy. As with all dichotomies, A and ~A must then be ‘mutually exclusive’ and ‘jointly exhaustive’ with respect to that universe of discourse. In other words, ‘no one thing can simultaneously be a member of both A and ~A’ (law of non-contradiction), whilst ‘every single thing must be a member of either A or ~A’ (law of excluded middle).

Thus, anyone who rejects the law of non-contradiction or the law of the excluded middle also rejects the law of identity and vice versa.

Note that the three laws of thought cannot be proven. They are either accepted as self-evident axioms – or not. The fundamental principles of right reason must be accepted as axioms for the simple reason that they cannot be demonstrated. There is no way to “argue for argument” and it is foolish to try to do so. If one’s goal in arguing is to arrive at the truth of a matter, arguing with a person who rejects the law of idenity is counterproductive, because he has rejected the very concept of “truth” as a meaningful category.

And just here is the rub. If a person rejects the laws of thought, he is not disagreeing about the evidence. He is not disagreeing about the logic. He is not disagreeing about meaning. He is saying, essentially, that the terms “evidence,” “logic” and “meaning” are meaningless concepts. It does no good to show such a person that his statement is self-referentially incoherent, because self-referential incoherence is exactly what he intends and he is not bothered by it. Whitman captures this attitude nicely:

Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself,
(I am large, I contain multitudes.)
Walt Whitman, “Song of Myself”

The issue, then, is not whether persons who disagree with us on the facts and logic will be allowed to debate on this site. Anyone who disagrees about the facts and logic is free to come here at any time. But if you come on here and say, essentially, that facts and logic do not matter, then we have no use for you. Would any of my readers try to argue with a person who tells them that he is going to employ the means of rational argument to demonstrate that rational argument does not exist. Of course not, because such a person is either a fool or evil or both.

Anyone who says a proposition can be simultaneously true and false demonstrates that his understanding is deeply disordered. It is pointless to argue with him, because he has rejected the basis of all argument, and arguing with him will only cause confusion and frustration, which is why Ibn Sina (Avicenna) famously wrote: “Anyone who denies the law of non-contradiction should be beaten and burned until he admits that to be beaten is not the same as not to be beaten, and to be burned is not the same as not to be burned.”

Of course I am not suggesting that anyone should be beaten or burned and neither was Avicenna. He was employing hyperbole to demonstrate that it is useless to argue with someone who rejects the first principles of argument. As someone else has said, that person does not require an argument; he requires therapy.

2. Argument on this Site

Anyone is free to come onto this site and, abiding the rules of rational debate, engage in rational debate. We will not, however, tolerate those who refuse to abide by the rules of rational debate any more than we would get into a boxing ring with someone who announces in advance that they do not feel bound by the rule against hitting below the belt.

If we are wrong, show us that we are wrong. But don’t try to tell us that we can be wrong and right at the same time.

If the evidence is against us, show us how the evidence is against us. But don’t try to tell us that the evidence can exist and not exist at the same time.

If our logic is faulty, point out to us how our logic is faulty. But don’t try to tell us that the fundamental principles of logic are false.

For example, I just put up a post on the tautology question. Anyone is free to come onto this site and try to convince me (or, more importantly, the lurkers) that what I have said is not true. No one is free to come onto this site and try to convince me that it is “true” that there is no truth.

Some have made the ludicrous suggestion that I have banned all Darwinists from this site. Do you really mean to suggest that there were only eight Darwinists in all of the blogosphere and I’ve banned them all and UD is now destined to become an echo chamber for all time? Piffle. There are literally millions of Darwinists with access to the internet. And every single one of them who is willing to abide by the rules of rational argument is free to come onto this site and do their very best to show us we are wrong.

But to those who wish only to engage in vain and useless babbling that serves only to sow the seeds of confusion, discord and error, I say go spew somewhere else.

Comments
The idea that the capacity to engage in reasoned discourse depends upon a commitment to "the rules of right reason" is silly (at best). For one thing, there are no such rules.Kantian Naturalist
March 17, 2013
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WJM: I think, on balance, I need to speak for record. First, the immediate trigger for the event in question, where there was a gavelling of out of control behaviour at UD, was a commenter who in the midst of exchanges, used a grossly insulting and vulgar term to the blog owner. I think that told him things had gone beyond the pale and were out of control. He hammered down hard with the gavel, a lot harder than I would have. The background for that, is the behaviour, over a long time, in a circle of frankly obsessively hostile or outright hateful and uncivil objector sites. Pictures of people taken and defaced. Vulgar insults and slanders. Outing tactics meant to cause economic injury. Threats against family, and more. Fever swamps is not too strong a word for some of what is going on, some of it tracing to a tone set by leaders of the so called new atheist movement. Objectors to design theory, that is the asp you have clutched to your collective chests. Face it, and deal with it. Next, there was a problem of not only the directly vulgar and outrageous, but those who indulged enabling behaviour in their company, to a point where things done at UD were in some cases obviously setting up smear campaigns elsewhere. And where, shockingly, some of the least offensive objectors here at UD were implicated in the go-along, enabling behaviour. (And, quite frankly, what is happening here just now smells a lot like that, and the scent is not sweet. That is why I will speak for record but will not entertain a debate.) Going on, there was a problem of evasion, dissembling, obfuscation and evident willful obtuseness that frequently side tracked UD discussions in fruitless circles. BA's digging in led him to the conclusion that a lot of it pivoted on the rhetoric of denial of first principles of right reason, so that issues over clear terms, non-contradiction and the excluded middle multiplied games of distraction, distortion, evasion, drumbeat repetition of talking points regardless of corrective evidence and the like. He cut the Gordian knot by introducing a moderation rule: if a commenter was not willing to acknowledge first principles of right reason -- and particularly the law of non contradiction (which is the law of non-confusion) such a party was either hopelessly confused and irrational or utterly insincere and playing manipulative rhetorical games. So, if one was obstructionist, evasive and tangential or going in circles habitually he proposed to directly challenge objectors like that on these first principles of clear discussion, without which not even quantum theory can be built. (More on that later.) If such a commenter failed the test, that in his view was grounds for taking such a person to be an obstacle to reasonable and productive discussion, not a benefit to the discussion. Now, I know, I know. There is a common view out there that those laws have been discredited, especially by quantum theory. That view is wrong, and utterly confused. That is why a new corrective was added to the UD collection, and it is why it has an extension that shows in more details how gross the error involved is. That this has to be pointed out, is a measure of how deeply broken our intellectual culture is. Indeed, just this alone goes a long way to explaining some of the difficulties people have with major issues in our day. But, there is more. Time and again, I see all sorts of accusations of censorship and cowardice, and assertions that people have been banned from UD because they have effective arguments against ID. Such is overblown or outright willfully misleading. The characteristic first problem has been abusive commentary, following a pattern of tangential distraction, led away to strawman caricatures soaked in personal attacks meant to wound personally, and to cloud, confuse, choke, poison and polarise the atmosphere for discussion. Indeed, given the suspicious timing of this latest foray, it seems to be a case of that. Second, with those who have been more civil, there has been the dual problem of enabling behaviour and evasiveness, sometimes amounting to willful obtuseness and stubbornness in drumbeat repetition of long since adequately corrected assertions. That is a part of why, to eliminate all the pointless and polarising debates and endless going in toxic talking point circles, six months ago, I put the following challenge on the table:
UD PRO-DARWINISM ESSAY CHALLENGE: Compose your summary case for darwinism (or any preferred variant that has at least some significant support in the professional literature, such as punctuated equlibria etc) in a fashion that is accessible to the non-technical reader — based on empirical evidence that warrants the inference to body plan level macroevolution — in up to say 6,000 words [a chapter in a serious paper is often about that long]. Outgoing links are welcome so long as they do not become the main point. That is, there must be a coherent essay, with (i)an intro, (ii) a thesis, (iii) a structure of exposition, (iv) presentation of empirical warrant that meets the inference to best current empirically grounded explanation [--> IBCE] test for scientific reconstructions of the remote past, (v) a discussion and from that (vi) a warranted conclusion. Your primary objective should be to show in this way, per IBCE, why there is no need to infer to design from the root of the Darwinian tree of life — cf. Smithsonian discussion here – on up (BTW, it will help to find a way to resolve the various divergent trees), on grounds that the Darwinist explanation, as extended to include OOL, is adequate to explain origin and diversification of the tree of life. A second objective of like level is to show how your thesis is further supported by such evidence as suffices to warrant the onward claim that is is credibly the true or approximately true explanation of origin and body-plan level diversification of life; on blind watchmaker style chance variation plus differential reproductive success, starting with some plausible pre-life circumstance. It would be helpful if in that essay you would outline why alternatives such as design, are inferior on the evidence we face. [As an initial spark for thinking, contrast my own survey of origins science here on (note the onward resources page), the definition of design theory in the UD resources tab top of this and every UD page, the Weak Argument Correctives in the same tab, the general resources that pop up on clicking the tab itself, and the discussion of design theory in the NWE article here. You may also want to refer to the site of the IDEA Center, and the Discovery Institute CSC site as well as Mike Gene's Telic Thoughts. Notice IDEA's essay on the case for design here.] . . . . I would put this up as an original post, with preliminary contextual remarks and an invitation to respond in the comments section. I will not submit the post with a rebutting markup or make an immediate rebuttal. In fact, let me make the offer to hold off my own comments for at least five initial comments. I will give you two full days of comments before I post any full post level response; though others at UD will be free to respond in their own right. And BTW, I am making this offer without consulting with the blog owner or others, I am sure they would welcome a serious response . . . [NB: I have given how to contact me in the original Sept 23 post, I will not repeat that in a headlined original post.]
Obviously, six months is more than enough time to provide what should be out there all across the Internet, if the evolutionary materialist system were as well grounded as those who tout it so often proclaim. What has happened? There were several refusals to even try. There were some strawman tactic games. There were offers that have languished for months unfulfilled. I take it as on balance clear evidence that the evolutionary materialism champions don't have the goods to back up their claims. And, the sort of rhetorical antics that continue to be played, speak volumes when they are set alongside the direct offer to host here at UD the knockdown case for evolutionary materialism. So, next time you see poisonous side track or evasive tactics, put them in the context of widespread refusal or evasion to take up an ultimate free kick at goal offer. I would say that a bluff has been called. And, sometimes, knowing a bit of context makes all the difference to understanding what is really going on. KFkairosfocus
March 17, 2013
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Joe: I think the anti-ID crows confuses being polite with being rational. Dr. Liddle was always polite, as far as I remember.William J Murray
March 17, 2013
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Driver:
It speaks plenty of your credibility, KF, that you persist with the implication that Elizabeth Liddle did not present rational arguments at this site.
She didn't. I would love to see one rational argument Lizzie put forth here. Anyone?Joe
March 17, 2013
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Upright Biped- tell Alan to eat static. Lizzie doesn't understand ID. She doesn't understand natural selection. That much was very clear when she tried to demonstrate that natural selection can produce CSI- her "demonstration" had nothing to do with natural selection and she didn't produce any CSI. Yet she insists natural selection didit. She, like you, is a waste of time.Joe
March 17, 2013
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Upright Biped I should very much like to see the complete context of the exchange where you claim Dr Liddle transgressed the rules of polite discourse such that a ban was merited. Are you able to identify the thread or provide a link?Alan Fox
March 17, 2013
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Alan Fox:
There is no ID argument of merit;
Not to you. However you cannot provide any unguided evolution argument that has any merit.
there is only carping about the alleged inadequacies of evolutionary explanations.
That is a lie. Blind watchmaker explanations- ID argues against the blind watchmaker, Alan- 8+ years and you are still ignorant of ID and what is being debated. Also all design inferences HAVE TO eliminate necessity and chance- those be the rules.Joe
March 17, 2013
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Elizabeth Liddle proved that she doesn't belong here discussing anything. She, like all evos, only equivocate and attack starwman arguments. Alan does the same so it is puzzling why he is allwed to post here when it is clear he has nothing to offer. My guess is Barry, et al., want people to see how lame anti-ID "arguments really are, so Alan stays.Joe
March 17, 2013
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I challenge anyone to find anything remotely objectionable in anything she ever posted here.
You asked for anyone to post an example of anything "remotely objectionable" from Dr Liddle. I answered your challenge with such an instance, so you immediately call me dishonest. You are in perfect form Alan.
Liddle: I simply do not accept the tenet that replication with modification + natural selection cannot introduce “new information” into the genome. It demonstrably can, IMO, on any definition of information I am aware of. BiPed: Neo-Darwinism doesn’t have a mechanism to bring information into existence in the first place. To speak freely of what it can do with information once it exist, is to ignore the 600lbs assumption in the room. Liddle: Well, tell me what definition of information you are using, and I’ll see if I can demonstrate that it can
...and then months later...after discovering what is actually required to demonstrate the rise of information, i.e. her claim...
BiPed: You have failed to produce any documentation that neo-Darwinian processes can establish such a system, and were therefore going to create a simulation where such a system would arise by chance contingency and physical law alone. The very fact that you have to create such a simulation is a real-time demonstration that you have (in fact) been given an argument for design that is not also known to be the product of neo-Darwinian processes. So your claim has been refuted by your very own involvement. Liddle: No, it has not. My original claim was made for CSI or other Dembski-derived information,by Darwinian processes.
You tell me Alan, did she ask for my definition of information, or Bill Dembski's?Upright BiPed
March 17, 2013
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She claimed that she had never heard an ID argument that could not also be resolved by Darwinian evolution, and she claimed that she had never heard an ID argument of any merit.
I suspect your "claimed that she had never heard an ID argument that could not also be resolved by Darwinian evolution" is a misrepresentation of what she wrote (it would be too much to expect a link to the actual exchange) but that "she had never heard an ID argument of any merit" is only too true! There is no ID argument of merit; there is only carping about the alleged inadequacies of evolutionary explanations.Alan Fox
March 17, 2013
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Upright Biped illustrates my point neatly. A better example of dishonest justification would be hard to imagine!Alan Fox
March 17, 2013
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Alan, Dr Liddle came here and made two claims. She claimed that she had never heard an ID argument that could not also be resolved by Darwinian evolution, and she claimed that she had never heard an ID argument of any merit. Both of those claims are ridiculous on their face, but she was trying to provoke a response, so we can give her the benefit of the doubt. Obviously, the first claim takes care of the second. If she had ever heard an ID argument that couldn’t also be resolved by Darwinian evolution, then for her, she’s clearly heard an ID argument of merit. And as far as her first claims goes, I gave her one in spades – one which she could not refute. After having wagered that she could write a simulation to prove the argument false, she came to finally understand (perhaps for the first time in her life) what information transfer actually requires, and she backed completely away from that wager (to no one’s surprise). She was only asked to be forthright enough to acknowledge the argument given to her, but her response was to do just as you have done - she simply refused. Her tactic was to save face by admitting to the blatantly obvious problems within her position, while simultaneously protecting herself from the substance of the argument. She accomplished this by pleading that she didn’t understand the previous months of conversations, even though she willingly and effectively participated in every one of them. In other words, she bullshitted her way out of it. Your method is much the same; after agreeing to each of the principle observations made in the argument, you simply act like nothing ever happened and quickly return to your endless talking points. So much for empiricism…
(Dr Liddle) You have been asked several times to do the intellectually honest thing and retract your claim, but thus far, you have refused to do so. This situation eventually led to a particular example of twisted logic (which took place well after the observations had been found legitimate and accounted for):
BIPED: You have thus far refused to acknowledge that one cannot logically be testing a falsification of an ID argument, while simultaneously claiming it doesn’t exist. LIDDLE: It’s a fair cop. In mitigation, I plead that I did not understand the charge. I do now. I did not mean what you thought I was saying, but as I now understand what you thought I was saying, I willingly clarify that I did not mean what you thought I meant.
.Upright BiPed
March 16, 2013
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'Barry, You removed just about every critic of ID from the site. So I conclude that you think they were all being irrational. Is that true?' No, Lastyearon, this is a particular case, in which Barry realised that a specific, utterly fundamental law of logic was being repeatedly breached. It is only to be expected that the general thought-processes of ID critics should be irrational, and so it's perfectly natural that Barry should tolerate them on here.Axel
March 16, 2013
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To be more specific: she didn't violate any logical principles in what she actually argued -- she merely claimed that the law of non-contradiction doesn't hold under certain empirical conditions.Kantian Naturalist
March 16, 2013
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As I recall, Liddle was banned because she denied that the law of non-contradiction was a priori. Apparently that's an offense against St. Aristotle or whatever.Kantian Naturalist
March 16, 2013
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The fact that it was habitual transgressions against specific, formal rules of logic, not 'some unwritten rule of polite debate' that caused he to be ejected is a mere detail isn't it, M Renard? Ah ha, mon ami! Does that give you a different perspective on l'affaire Liddle? Mais non!Axel
March 16, 2013
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'Have fun in the echo chamber!' It will never be an echo-chamber, Driver, as long as you people bore yourselves to death on your own forums (see the post, above, about not coveting truth, but only wanting to win arguments), and as long as you people are (to me, mysteriously) tolerated on this board. But then, I am more inclined towards totalitarianism, so should really be part of the Consensus, at least, among the general public.Axel
March 16, 2013
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"It is obvious to any disinterested observer that she was banned because she made ID proponents look bad with their inability to counter her arguments and analysis."
It's been seen before, fans of EL promoting the infallible image, and attempting to make her look like a martyr. It's bizarre and perhaps a little creepy. Confirmation BiasChance Ratcliff
March 16, 2013
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'It is the dishonest suggestions that there was justification for it; that she somehow transgressed some unwritten rule of polite debate.' In that you are correct, Monsieur Renard. If my memory serves me - which should not be necessarily assumed, these days - Kairofocus dilated at great length in writing on the transgressions against certain formal rules of logic that La Liddle habitually breached. But, overall, you are thoroughly mistaken in your belief that she was not justly defenestrated.Axel
March 16, 2013
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Nothing impassions ID’s critics more thoroughly than their moral outrage at UD’s banning history. Even Alan ascends shallowly from common snark to indignation at the mention of it.
It is not that UD banned Elizabeth Liddle from commenting that annoys me. It is the dishonest suggestions that there was justification for it; that she somehow transgressed some unwritten rule of polite debate. It is obvious to any disinterested observer that she was banned because she made ID proponents look bad with their inability to counter her arguments and analysis. (That's why I still get to post here. ;) )Alan Fox
March 16, 2013
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Nothing impassions ID's critics more thoroughly than their moral outrage at UD's banning history. Even Alan ascends shallowly from common snark to indignation at the mention of it.Chance Ratcliff
March 16, 2013
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So, Murray, nothing to support your insinuation about Dr. Liddle. No surprises there.Alan Fox
March 16, 2013
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KF, Materialists have no need to be reasonable, or civil, because for them, the point isn't to find truth, but rather just to win. Whatever wins, is true - that's Darwinism! And the prize they fight for? Nihilism. I guess with a supposed 95% extinction rate, it shouldn't surprise anyone that the self-claimed products of mindless evolution gravitate towards self-annihilation. They will only act civil and pretend to be reasonable as long as such behavior purchases them the time and a forum to spew their destructive nonsense, rhetoric and sophistry.William J Murray
March 16, 2013
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I think Liddle was banned more for cumulative, ongoing prevarication and dissembling than any single “final straw”, such as her position that the scientific community had “no vested interest in maintaining the status quo”.
Murray, do you really believe what you write here? It’s so far from reality that I suspect that it is even too far for you to really mean what you say.Alan Fox
March 16, 2013
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I think Liddle was banned more for cumulative, ongoing prevarication and dissembling than any single “final straw”, such as her position that the scientific community had “no vested interest in maintaining the status quo”. Murray, do you really believe what you write here? It's so far from reality that I suspect that it is even too far for you to really mean what you say.
Alan Fox
March 16, 2013
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GEM to Driver:
Go do your own homework.
Hilarious! Like telling me to look for a genuine exposition of CSI! Dr. Liddle, though sorely provoked, managed the incomparable feat of remaining reasonable and polite in her attempt to tease out some substance from the "usual suspects". The reason Lizzie can no longer post here is that she made people here seem petty, rude, dishonest, arrogant, misogynistic; condescending. I challenge anyone to find anything remotely objectionable in anything she ever posted here. Surprise me for once!Alan Fox
March 16, 2013
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@54:
“no vested interest in maintaining the status quo”
A look at the NCSE or the Biola U. website would dismantle that claim. Wasn't she banned because she denied a major logical axiom?JWTruthInLove
March 16, 2013
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WJM, the sad thing, is, that asking for civility and reasonableness 101 in discussion, is seen as censorship [without bothering to do homework], meanwhile outright hate walks naked and rampant, and is accepted or enabled as though it were freedom of expression rather than the very opposite. KFkairosfocus
March 16, 2013
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So, Driver implies that KF is not credible for his position on EL without Driver even looking at the evidence? I prefer the echoes of reason over fresh incursions of nonsense any day of the week. I think Liddle was banned more for cumulative, ongoing prevarication and dissembling than any single "final straw", such as her position that the scientific community had "no vested interest in maintaining the status quo".William J Murray
March 16, 2013
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I "resurrect the matter" because I haven't looked at UD in over a year. It speaks plenty of your credibility, KF, that you persist with the implication that Elizabeth Liddle did not present rational arguments at this site. Have fun in the echo chamber!Driver
March 16, 2013
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