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Why is Barry Arrington Stifling Dissent at UD?

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If you visit some of our more vociferous opponents’ websites that is the question being asked. The answer, of course, is that I am not stifling rational argument on this site. In fact, just the opposite is true; my purpose has been to weed out those who refuse to engage in rational argument so that rational argument can be pursued by those who remain. Since, however, recent modifications to this site’s moderation policy have caused such a brouhaha, I feel compelled to lay out a formal defense.

1. The Rules of Thought.

The rules of thought are the first principles of right reason. Those rules are:

The Law of Identity: An object is the same as itself.

The Law of Non-contradiction: Contradictory statements cannot both at the same time be true.

The Law of the Excluded Middle: For any proposition, either that proposition is true or its negation is true.

Importantly, the second two laws really boil down to the first law. As the Wikipedia article explains:

The law of non-contradiction and the law of excluded middle are not separate laws per se, but correlates of the law of identity. That is to say, they are two interdependent and complementary principles that inhere naturally (implicitly) within the law of identity, as its essential nature. To understand how these supplementary laws relate to the law of identity, one must recognize the dichotomizing nature of the law of identity. By this I mean that whenever we ‘identify’ a thing as belonging to a certain class or instance of a class, we intellectually set that thing apart from all the other things in existence which are ‘not’ of that same class or instance of a class. In other words, the proposition, “A is A and A is not ~A” (law of identity) intellectually partitions a universe of discourse (the domain of all things) into exactly two subsets, A and ~A, and thus gives rise to a dichotomy. As with all dichotomies, A and ~A must then be ‘mutually exclusive’ and ‘jointly exhaustive’ with respect to that universe of discourse. In other words, ‘no one thing can simultaneously be a member of both A and ~A’ (law of non-contradiction), whilst ‘every single thing must be a member of either A or ~A’ (law of excluded middle).

Thus, anyone who rejects the law of non-contradiction or the law of the excluded middle also rejects the law of identity and vice versa.

Note that the three laws of thought cannot be proven. They are either accepted as self-evident axioms – or not. The fundamental principles of right reason must be accepted as axioms for the simple reason that they cannot be demonstrated. There is no way to “argue for argument” and it is foolish to try to do so. If one’s goal in arguing is to arrive at the truth of a matter, arguing with a person who rejects the law of idenity is counterproductive, because he has rejected the very concept of “truth” as a meaningful category.

And just here is the rub. If a person rejects the laws of thought, he is not disagreeing about the evidence. He is not disagreeing about the logic. He is not disagreeing about meaning. He is saying, essentially, that the terms “evidence,” “logic” and “meaning” are meaningless concepts. It does no good to show such a person that his statement is self-referentially incoherent, because self-referential incoherence is exactly what he intends and he is not bothered by it. Whitman captures this attitude nicely:

Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself,
(I am large, I contain multitudes.)
Walt Whitman, “Song of Myself”

The issue, then, is not whether persons who disagree with us on the facts and logic will be allowed to debate on this site. Anyone who disagrees about the facts and logic is free to come here at any time. But if you come on here and say, essentially, that facts and logic do not matter, then we have no use for you. Would any of my readers try to argue with a person who tells them that he is going to employ the means of rational argument to demonstrate that rational argument does not exist. Of course not, because such a person is either a fool or evil or both.

Anyone who says a proposition can be simultaneously true and false demonstrates that his understanding is deeply disordered. It is pointless to argue with him, because he has rejected the basis of all argument, and arguing with him will only cause confusion and frustration, which is why Ibn Sina (Avicenna) famously wrote: “Anyone who denies the law of non-contradiction should be beaten and burned until he admits that to be beaten is not the same as not to be beaten, and to be burned is not the same as not to be burned.”

Of course I am not suggesting that anyone should be beaten or burned and neither was Avicenna. He was employing hyperbole to demonstrate that it is useless to argue with someone who rejects the first principles of argument. As someone else has said, that person does not require an argument; he requires therapy.

2. Argument on this Site

Anyone is free to come onto this site and, abiding the rules of rational debate, engage in rational debate. We will not, however, tolerate those who refuse to abide by the rules of rational debate any more than we would get into a boxing ring with someone who announces in advance that they do not feel bound by the rule against hitting below the belt.

If we are wrong, show us that we are wrong. But don’t try to tell us that we can be wrong and right at the same time.

If the evidence is against us, show us how the evidence is against us. But don’t try to tell us that the evidence can exist and not exist at the same time.

If our logic is faulty, point out to us how our logic is faulty. But don’t try to tell us that the fundamental principles of logic are false.

For example, I just put up a post on the tautology question. Anyone is free to come onto this site and try to convince me (or, more importantly, the lurkers) that what I have said is not true. No one is free to come onto this site and try to convince me that it is “true” that there is no truth.

Some have made the ludicrous suggestion that I have banned all Darwinists from this site. Do you really mean to suggest that there were only eight Darwinists in all of the blogosphere and I’ve banned them all and UD is now destined to become an echo chamber for all time? Piffle. There are literally millions of Darwinists with access to the internet. And every single one of them who is willing to abide by the rules of rational argument is free to come onto this site and do their very best to show us we are wrong.

But to those who wish only to engage in vain and useless babbling that serves only to sow the seeds of confusion, discord and error, I say go spew somewhere else.

Comments
Go do your own homework. The final straws for several commenters had to do with not only what was posted at UD, but -- in a general context of vulgarity used against the blog owner -- revelations of enabling behaviour elsewhere in the face of some pretty serious nastiness of the ilk of certain hate sites that will not be otherwise detailed; I did not and do not see any material sign of concern for and policing of the abuse, threats against families, outing behaviour, abuse of RW pictures etc etc on the other side on your part; should we take this as approval or further enabling? As to the gap between what EL is capable of and what she ended up doing here at UD and elsewhere, that, sadly, speaks for itself. Your attempt to resurrect the matter a year later fails, I comment for record for onlookers who may not know the wider story.kairosfocus
March 16, 2013
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Out of interest, I wonder if anyone can post examples of Elizabeth being irrational. It would be great if Barry could post the "final straw" that got her banned too.Driver
March 16, 2013
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The assertion that Elizabeth Liddle is incapable of rational argument is hilarious. She is a penetrative critic of ID, and a capable defender of the theory of evolution, and you all know it. Barry is afraid of her. She is not someone who writes long sentences on the preparation and cooking of herring before she even starts. She does not post twenty links, tangentially related to the topic at best, in lieu of argument. She does not compare use of twitter to the methods of the Inquisition. I fully believe you when you say the last year of conversation has been more "focused". There are no doubt fewer commenters, and less disparity of views. Eventually you will get to the point where it's just Barry, KF, vjtorley, and BA, if you haven't reached that point already. Then the discussion will be really focused.Driver
March 16, 2013
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Driver: Kindly, cf. the original post above on what was banned, why:
If you visit some of our more vociferous opponents’ websites that is the question being asked. The answer, of course, is that I am not stifling rational argument on this site. In fact, just the opposite is true; my purpose has been to weed out those who refuse to engage in rational argument so that rational argument can be pursued by those who remain.
BA goes on to point to the issue of the basis of rational discussion. The subtext, being tha there has been a problem of outright abusiveness that required gavelling to control, and that here has been a second problem of evasiveness and sniping from the shadows. The past year has shown that in fact there has been a more focussed discussion at UD. Never mind that many of us thought, that's harsh. We must give Jack his jacket, a lawyer will know more about gavelling pointless evasive circles and the like than us laymen. There is a reason a Judge has a gavel in court, and uses it. KFkairosfocus
March 16, 2013
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You banned Elizabeth Liddle? How cowardly.Driver
March 16, 2013
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Hi everyone, Regarding the "Paradox of the Stone," this article by Yujin Nagasawa might be helpful: Anything You Can Do God Can Do Better Cheers.vjtorley
February 19, 2012
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Podcast - "Responding to the Challenge of the New Atheists"
"Responding to the Challenge of the New Atheists" - Andy Bannister - podcast http://networkedblogs.com/u8mRc
bornagain77
February 18, 2012
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My humble take on the argument. I would copy and paste it, but it's fairly long. I may argue it a little differently now, I think, but critiques are welcome.Brent
February 18, 2012
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"Could god make a rock so big god couldn’t move it" This is an old incorrect argument used by atheists to try denying God omnipotence. God omnipotence is in theology what Total Possibility = Metaphysical Infinity is in metaphysics. So let's see why the above god-make-a-rock-so-big antinomy is metaphysically absurd. The Total Possibility, which has no limits, contains all what is possible, but doesn't contain what is impossible. For example it doesn't contain a circle that is in the same time a square. Of course it can contain multiple circles and squares as separate figures. But a single figure cannot be in the same time circle and square because these two possibilities are incompatible, when applied to the same figure. Now "god make a rock so big" and "god couldn’t move it" are two incompatible possibilities, exactly as a circle-square figure. The concept of incompatibility between possibilities doesn't refute at all the unlimitedness of the Total Possibility, because incompatibility discards only impossibility, which is pure nothingness. Similarly incompatibility/impossibility doesn't refute at all God's omnipotence. Whoever claims that logical incompatibility/impossibility refutes God's omnipotence shows only his own inability about logic.niwrad
February 18, 2012
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Haven't read the 42 comments yet (don't have time, still digging thru the thousands of comments scattered on the subject of laws of reason since the Dembski Methodological Counter-Intuition thread, want to make sure I have read everyone's thoughts) but had a question. Could the christian conception of god violate the laws of reason as outlined by Arrington at top? I guess this is equivalent to the satirical question, could god make a rock so big god couldn't move it?dennis grey
February 17, 2012
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Stuart Harris, You're just assuming that you know what is rational. Philosophy, by definition, is the quest for uncertain knowledge. You can never know for certain if you're in the right. Critics challenge you to justify your assertions.noam_ghish
February 17, 2012
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"Axel, you don’t think that non-ID scientists working in evolution-related disciplines are able to make insightful contributions to these discussions?" Exactly right, paulmc. In contrast to their evolutionist opponents, the people who run this forum are anxious to use the findings of empirical research to refute the arguments - which are bereft of empiricism - of the evolutionists. The latter conjecture, period. They know that the evolutionists are, in fact, bringing a knife to a gun-fight. But until now, they've been humouring them. 'My conjecture for your empirical research findings, bornagain77", pretty much conveys what I mean, in terms of the evolutionists' contributions here. 'Is it surprising that people might want to chime in with comments on these topics?' Not at all, paul. But that doesn't mean such comments are rational. It IS a tautology to state that those fit to survive, do so, and those insufficiently fit to survive, don't. I mean I find it extraordinary that evolutionists should deny it. 'I am yet to meet an IDist with an adequate understanding of population genetics to fully engage in a discussion of junk DNA – and I include Jonathan Wells in that, by the way.' - paul Give it a try on here, paul, and see. -------------- David. 'So the bottom line, at least to materialists, is that no object inherently “has design”, except in light of the historical knowledge of the design process that produced it.' Your words, '...at least to materialists...' are pivotal. 'Imagine if some unknown space alien left something on your doorstep.' David, we try to view the world through our experience - which tends not to include aliens. Reports by pilots to the effect that they encountered incredibly fast, palpably alien aircraft, does indeed suggest that, if they were real, they were designed to extraordinarily sophistated specifications, in comparison with our level of scientific development; 'design' meaning exclusively, produced by an intelligent and purposeful mind - which is all we are familiar with. The rest might as well be an event horizon. We have no acquaintance at all with random designs; patterns, yes. Well, sometimes clouds and turnips, etc, might figure among the former, but it would be stretching it to compare them with the structure of the universe and the rest of its contents. In short, the notion that we need to know the provenance of an article, in order to correctly assess whether it was designed or a meaningless lump makes no sense at all. I look at what mathematicians write on their blackboard in video clips, but if it were drivel, I'd still recognise the symbols and numbers as artefacts. I suppose a rock used as a door-stop might qualify for your pruposes, but that's stretching it to make an argument. Though if you saw it in situ, you'd still know it wasn't there by random chance - but by design. Why would putatively random processes not only have produced a whole universe of regularity to challenge our intelligence, but continue to do so. It's madness to think they do. Indeed, such processes ought to produce wall-to-wall nonsense - such as to confound rational thought. And invoking paradoxes here won't do. It's as if God had gone out of his way to encourage such madness in atheists. Couldn't he even have spared them a genuine 100% vacuum in space? Or enabled them to make a machine for producing truly random numbers? But, alas, intelligence-in does not make for garbage-out, any more than random garbage-in makes for an intelligible, designed, output.Axel
February 17, 2012
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noam_ghish: As a supporter of ID I have to protest that I really don’t like this trend. I'm a supporter of ID and I like what Berry's doing. I've tuned out of UD the last couple years mainly because the comment sections almost immediately go way off track into meaningless squabbles rather than interesting discussion. I like to read comments that are honest and to the point, or if they swing off topic are at least rational. I would suggest that UD go further and allow each person that posts a topic to have full control over comments so that they can simply delete ones that are irrationally argumentative. Would this mean that some of the UD posters would delete some valid comments? Yes, but I think it would be better than the free-for-all that leads to boring, unreadable comment threads.StuartHarris
February 17, 2012
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I'm sorry poor Libby got herself banned, but she really was quite the dessembler. Saw that early on.allanius
February 17, 2012
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As a supporter of ID I have to protest that I really don't like this trend. Of course I accept the three laws of thought and I know how frustrating it can be to deal with someone who tries to wiggle around the LNC. There are some people that will never be convinced of our reasons. And there are some people that are clearly incapable of logical thinking. Who knows even I might belong to that camp. But just because someone engages in what we perceive to be illogical some of the time, does not mean that 1 time in 20 they can point out a valid flaw in our thinking. I've seen too many people at other websites cook up absurd excuses to kick people out. There is no certain knowledge in philosophy. And we can never be certain that our opponents are not at least speaking a half truth a tenth of the time. I know how hard it is to deal with people that refuse to admit they're wrong in spite of enormous evidence, but I think even more frustrating would be being unable to listen to one's critics. I saw just ban those people who use vociferous profanity or are spammers.noam_ghish
February 17, 2012
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woodford:
I never contributed here much,
Correction- you have never contributed here because you don't have anything to contribute.Joe
February 17, 2012
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David W. Gibson:
I’m arguing that when dealing with really complex issues involving unknowns, and psychology, and probabilities — that is, non-trivial issues, the LNC becomes very difficult to apply.
I don't mean to slander you or characterize you here, but simply let you know the context I'm working from: In my experience the folks that make this argument don't understand the LNC. The LNC isn't something you 'apply', it is an unavoidable consequence of the logical connectives, equations, and propositions. The problem here is not any difficulty with the LNC or with complex topics and unknowns. It's a problem of complex propositions. So to say, that if someone cannot break a complex proposition down into small pieces that can be inspected easily then it is simply the case that they are speaking outside the depth of their knowledge. If they will not then they're engaging in medacity and sophistry.
It often seems to me that no two people claiming they believe in the One True God, actually believe in the SAME god.
Sure, or it's a hooded man fallacy.
Is it possible to apply the LNC to eliminate all but one?
Once again, one doesn't 'apply' the LNC. There are several problems here. We can utilize empiricism to reject some of them. We can use deductions to show a contradictions within one, as it speaks about itself, and then 'recognize' that the LNC shows that the premises are in error. But we cannot affirm the antecedent empirically or logically. That's a massive no-no. Just as well, refuting the argument as it follows from the premises doesn't tell us anything about the conclusion itself as it may or could be out in reality. It only tells us about the manner in which we come to that conclusion from the premises we have. There are finer points, but I don't want to drag on.
What lawyers often illustrate, especially at higher levels of appeals, is that laws ARE ambiguous despite the best attempts to avoid it.
Sure, humans excel at creating unnecessary ambiguity and holding contradictory opinions. What lawyers illustrate is that sophistry is not valid argument. And that unless science is law, that sophistry is a gross error to be avoided. Point of fact, it's considered good jurisprudence (depending on jurisdiction) for Judges to throw out laws that are too ambiguous or that are contradictory. Such that it is that even Judges put limits on the amount of bad faith that comes into their courtroom. Just the same, really, as Barry here.Maus
February 16, 2012
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lastyearon:
Elizabeth Liddle, Eigenstate and DrRec. None of them have ever refused to engage in rational argument here.
That's a shame, I didn't know Elizabeth caught a ban hammer. But while I liked here, and she certainly never refused to enter an argument, I would not have characterized her as engaging in rational argument. Rationalized, but not rational. Now that's not a knock against her as we're all terribly prone for the same thing. But being prolifically vocal isn't the same thing as providing a good argument for or against any position at all.
And all this stuff about the LNC and the moon are just pretenses, to avoid making the less subtle, but more truly felt claim that there are no rational arguments against ID, and hence every ID critic that posts here is irrational and unworthy to post here.
Let's assume we've a Delphic Oracle at hand that can answer this definitively, and that it does so in the affirmative. The question then is: So what? Certainly if you're talking about normal human tribalism then it's a good assumption about Barry's opinion on the matter. Likewise, it's a good assumption to make about Dawkins, Gould, or anyone in the Darwinist camp. Indeed, since it's normal human tribalism then it's a safe bet about anything that anyone believes in. So I'm curious as to whether your intent is to impeach all humanity and all discussion; both those on your philophical side and otherwise. Or if your intention is to state that the idea of using reason, and being honest in debate, is a brass ring too far out of reach for advocates of Darwinism. I reject the utility of the first, and categorically reject the latter. But I'm willing to be swayed in my opinion.Maus
February 16, 2012
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David:
Not exactly unreasonable, but merely often difficult.
“Reasonable” was your word, not mine. If you meant “difficult,” you should have said difficult.
But the problem as I see it is, we are attempting to apply strict principles to discussions where “disagreement over its application” is rampant.
There was no disagreement or confusion about the rule.
Is ID essentially religious?
You are not effectively using the language to express your meaning, possibly because you don’t know very much about ID. If you mean ID science, the answer is no. Also, the word “essentially” is ambiguous. It leaves too much room for interpretation, which does not lend itself to deductive analysis.
”This question LOOKS like a straightforward yes or no question, but it’s far from one. What do we mean by “essentially” or by “religious”? These questions matter. To paraphrase one Supreme Court justice, reasonable, intelligent and knowledgeable people can legitimately disagree about the meaning of all but the most trivial statements. And what’s discussed here is certainly not trivial.
The question was not properly crafted. No would could possibly discern its (your) meaning. If you are asking, “Does ID methodology assume, presuppose, or depend on religious faith in any way,” then the answer is no. That question can be tested for logical validity. ID methodology either presupposes religious faith or it doesn’t. There is no excluded middle ground. If you could show, for example, how ID methodology does presuppose, or depend on, or assume religious faith, you would prove conclusively that my claim is false.
In the case of Jupiter, this is very true. But instead of Jupiter, let’s substitute things like “justice” or “God” or “the greatest good for the greatest number.” There is without question considerable ambiguity as to whether such things “exist” in any absolute sense.
Again, one must know something about the subjects being discussed. I would have no difficulty applying the law of non-contradiction to any of them. Examples: Plato wrote about Justice in the “Republic.” Either he did or he didn’t. It can’t be both. According to Christian tradition, a Divine God took on a human nature. Either He did or he didn’t. It can’t be both. Utilitarianism is a form of consequentialism. That statement is either true or false. It cannot be both true and false.
Probabilistic statements are another problematic category, especially under conditions where not all relevant factors are quantified or even identified! What IS the opposite of “there’s a 60% chance of rain tomorrow”?
Probability, which pertains to inductive reasoning, has nothing to do with it. The law of non-contradiction provides the foundation for deductive reasoning.
If I’m reading you correctly, you are presenting here the assertion that all possible statements, however poorly understood the subject matter to which they pertain, CAN be formed with such precision as to eliminate any ambiguity.
You are not reading me correctly.
So: I agree with the principle of LNC, it’s self-evident in principle. Applying it in discussion where basic axioms are in dispute, is another story.
If you understand the subject matter, the LNC, and the language, there is no problem.StephenB
February 16, 2012
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The bottom line: whiners can whine somewhere else. The sub-average IQ folk have their sites to rant on. Rant away.mike1962
February 16, 2012
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Maus, I'm certainly not disputing LNC. I'm arguing that when dealing with really complex issues involving unknowns, and psychology, and probabilities -- that is, non-trivial issues, the LNC becomes very difficult to apply. As an analogy, even supercomputers cannot solve NP-complete problems with more than a few instances. This doesn't mean there IS no solution, only that we can't find it and must approximate and satisfice. Consider the statement "there are at least two gods". This sounds perfectly straightforward, but is it? It often seems to me that no two people claiming they believe in the One True God, actually believe in the SAME god. So maybe there are as many gods as there are believers. Maybe there are't any gods at all. When there are disagreements over scripture, often the result is a schism. There are over 30,000 Christian sects. Is it possible to apply the LNC to eliminate all but one? What lawyers often illustrate, especially at higher levels of appeals, is that laws ARE ambiguous despite the best attempts to avoid it. I've taken law courses (I'm not a lawyer, but the courses were interesting), and the students legitimately disagreed. They had no axes to grind, no money to gain. The old aphorism holds that "hard cases make bad law". Hard cases happen when there is much force behind the arguments of both sides, and our legal system can't compromise, it must decide ONE side is ENTIRELY correct, denying the excellent arguments of the losing side - until the next case comes along. Real Life is like that.David W. Gibson
February 16, 2012
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David W. Gibson:
Take the statement “people like chocolate.” Is this claim true? Well, SOME people like chocolate, but certainly not all. Many people are allergic to chocolate. So then is the negation of this statement true, that people do NOT like chocolate?
The negation of 'some people like chocolate' is 'no people like chocolate'. For which all the normal laws of thought apply. This doesn't change whether you meant 'people' as 'some people' or 'people as a general rule'. Misunderstanding this, and flipping between contraries or subcontraries as what you desire to be negation is a common mistake. With contraries, quantified anyways, it leads to a False Dichotomy, while with subcontraries it leads to apparent violations of the LEM and LNC together. That lawyers get this wrong is no surprise. They're in the business of exchanging freedom for money. Winning is more important than soundness. For what it's worth, those in ancient Greece that wanted to be lawyers attended the school of the Sophists.Maus
February 16, 2012
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I think this is now the only blog I know where, in order to contribute, one must conform to particular rules of thinking and logic. This sort of thing just continues to make me grin. Those intolerant monsters at Uncommon Descent, demanding that the people they discuss things with adhere to the Law of Non-Contradiction. Madness!nullasalus
February 16, 2012
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I think this is now the only blog I know where, in order to contribute, one must conform to particular rules of thinking and logic. I guess the owners of the blog can do whatever they want, but I can't help feel that by policing and constraining how people comment here, it is only going to be detrimental to the cause of ID. I never contributed here much, but not only do I no longer feel inclined to do so, I think there is little point in continuing to read the blog either (although if one day ID hires a real science writer rather than the poor excuse for science writing demonstrated by "News" I might return). So congratulations on making what is a rather irrelevant corner of the Internet even more irrelevant.woodford
February 16, 2012
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Nice post, David. I agree with all that. A relevant quote (perhaps) from Yogi Berra: "In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is."Aleta
February 16, 2012
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StephenB,
Your point was that ambiguity of language is one the many reasons that the law of non-contradiction is “unreasonable” at the level of application.
Not exactly unreasonable, but merely often difficult. Words are generally multi-purposed to facilitate approximate communication, which for most purposes is close enough. The trade-off is between an unmanageably large and dynamic vocabulary on the one hand, and occasional miscommunication on the other. In the sorts of matters discussed her, sufficient precision of expression is often difficult to achieve. And this very exchange illustrates it.
Legal confusion comes about as a result of varied interpretations of a given statute and disagreements over its application in a specific instance. There are no varied interpretations of the LNC nor is there any confusion about its application. So, your example is misplaced.
But the problem as I see it is, we are attempting to apply strict principles to discussions where "disagreement over its application" is rampant. Is ID essentially religious? This question LOOKS like a straightforward yes or no question, but it's far from one. What do we mean by "essentially" or by "religious"? These questions matter. To paraphrase one Supreme Court justice, reasonable, intelligent and knowledgeable people can legitimately disagree about the meaning of all but the most trivial statements. And what's discussed here is certainly not trivial.
Example: The PRINCIPLE is the Law of Non-Contradiction. One APPLICATION would be that Jupiter cannot exist and not exist at the same time and in the same sense. There is no ambiguity either in the principle or the application.
In the case of Jupiter, this is very true. But instead of Jupiter, let's substitute things like "justice" or "God" or "the greatest good for the greatest number." There is without question considerable ambiguity as to whether such things "exist" in any absolute sense. Probabilistic statements are another problematic category, especially under conditions where not all relevant factors are quantified or even identified! What IS the opposite of "there's a 60% chance of rain tomorrow"?
If ambiguity does occur, it is because the person who appeals to the law (or wants to discuss it) does not effectively use language to articulate his point. So, the take home message, here is that problems with ambiguity in language is the fault of the author, not the law itself.
If I'm reading you correctly, you are presenting here the assertion that all possible statements, however poorly understood the subject matter to which they pertain, CAN be formed with such precision as to eliminate any ambiguity. My contention is that languages did not evolve to be constructed for this purpose. I attempt to write as clearly as I can, but your observation that I "failed to elaborate meaningfully" illustrates the difficulty, at least for me. So: I agree with the principle of LNC, it's self-evident in principle. Applying it in discussion where basic axioms are in dispute, is another story.David W. Gibson
February 16, 2012
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But the words in the propositions may not be clearly defined, so that even though the LNC is applied, it still misses the heart of the manner, which is is there a meaningful topic at hand? For instance, consider this: "The PRINCIPLE is the Law of Non-Contradiction. One APPLICATION would be that Flugglebeam cannot exist and not exist at the same time and in the same sense. There is no ambiguity either in the principle or the application." This is true, logically, but does not (as far as you or I know) refer to anything real at all. If statements of this sort can be written about anything all, they may be logically valid but empirically worthless.Aleta
February 16, 2012
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Barry Arrington
"I won’t even bother to address Gibson’s assertion that “language is so inherently ambiguous that it is all but impossible to convey meaning” other than to note that he conveyed that thought in, yes, language. It always astounds me that people who say things like that (1) don’t seem to recognize the irony of their statement; and (2) hypocritically insist on an unspoken exception for their statements.
David Gibson:
"I was quite startled to discover this quote of my words in Barry’s post, since I never said it. And indeed, it would have been a stupid thing to say, since it’s not true. Certainly it’s not what I intended. So I actually went back to see what I had actually written. To my surprise, it’s still there.
Your point was that ambiguity of language is one the many reasons that the law of non-contradiction is "unreasonable" at the level of application. The problem is first with your theme, which is false, and second, with your failed attempt to elaborate on it in a meaningful way. Legal confusion comes about as a result of varied interpretations of a given statute and disagreements over its application in a specific instance. There are no varied interpretations of the LNC nor is there any confusion about its application. So, your example is misplaced. Example: The PRINCIPLE is the Law of Non-Contradiction. One APPLICATION would be that Jupiter cannot exist and not exist at the same time and in the same sense. There is no ambiguity either in the principle or the application. If ambiguity does occur, it is because the person who appeals to the law (or wants to discuss it) does not effectively use language to articulate his point. So, the take home message, here is that problems with ambiguity in language is the fault of the author, not the law itself.StephenB
February 16, 2012
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The first paragraph of mine, above, was unclear. It is nonsense, because if I saw an old car radiator on a desert island, I would know with virtually irrefragible certainty that someone had been there before. Common sense, not sophistry is required here. It's not brain surgery or rocket science. If you play tortuous philosophical games, instead, you end up with that terrible oogly-oogly bird syndrome.Axel
February 16, 2012
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Must rush, but an imperative to know the origin of a design is nonsense. Although only because the idea of IDers yearning to convince any materialist is simmply fanciful. They want the truth out there. That's all. If they never had to interact with materialists, charming people though they might be, in private, it would not be an occasion for regret. Nothing personal, you seem to write courteously and in good faith. But for exchanges of ideas, another subject and another forum would, imo, be desirable. Our position, our take, on your absolute want of scientific rigour, heck scientific anything, must bore you to death. Your take on IDers' take on the fundamental issue ought to bore you to death, since you must have seen so much of it, without being persuaded.Axel
February 16, 2012
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