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At Evolution News: Rosenhouse’s Whoppers: The Environment as a Source of Information

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William Dembski writes:

I am responding again to Jason Rosenhouse about his book The Failures of Mathematical Anti-Evolutionism. See my earlier posts here and here.

In Rosenhouse’s book, he claims that “natural selection serves as a conduit for transmitting environmental information into the genomes of organisms.” (p. 215) I addressed this claim briefly in my review, indicating that conservation of information shows it to be incomplete and inadequate, but essentially I referred him to technical work by me and colleagues on the topic. In his reply, he remains, as always, unpersuaded. So let me here give another go at explaining the role of the environment as a source of information for Darwinian evolution. As throughout this response, I’m addressing the unwashed middle.

Darwinian evolution depends on selection, variation, and replication working within an environment. How selection, variation, and replication play out, however, depends on the particulars of the environment. Take a simple example, one that Rosenhouse finds deeply convincing and emblematic for biological evolution, namely, Richard Dawkins’s famous METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL simulation (pp. 192–194 of Rosenhouse’s book). Dawkins imagines an environment consisting of sequences of 28 letters and spaces, random variations of those letters, and a fitness function that rewards sequences to the degree that they are close to (i.e., share letters with) the target sequence METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL. 

So What’s the Problem?

The problem is not with the letter sequences, their randomization, or even the activity of a fitness function in guiding such an evolutionary process, but the very choice of fitness function. Why did the environment happen to fixate on METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL and make evolution drive toward that sequence? Why not a totally random sequence? The whole point of this example is to suggest that evolution can produce something design-like (a meaningful phrase, in this case, from Shakespeare’s Hamlet) without the need for actual design. But most fitness functions would evolve toward random sequences of letters and spaces. So what’s the difference maker in the choice of fitness? If you will, what selects the fitness function that then selects for fitness in the evolutionary process? Well, leaving aside some sort of interventional design (and not all design needs to be interventional), it’s got to be the environment. 

But that’s the problem. What renders one environment an interesting source of evolutionary change given selection, variation, and replication but others uninteresting? Most environments, in fact, don’t lead to any interesting form of evolution. Consider Sol Spiegelman’s work on the evolution of polynucleotides in a replicase environment. One thing that makes real world biological evolution interesting, assuming it actually happens, is that it increases information in the items that are undergoing evolution. Yet Spiegelman demonstrated that even with selection, variation, and replication in play, information steadily decreased over the course of his experiment. Brian Goodwin, in his summary of Spiegelman’s work, highlights this point (How the Leopard Changed Its Spots, pp. 35–36):

In a classic experiment, Spiegelman in 1967 showed what happens to a molecular replicating system in a test tube, without any cellular organization around it. The replicating molecules (the nucleic acid templates) require an energy source, building blocks (i.e., nucleotide bases), and an enzyme to help the polymerization process that is involved in self-copying of the templates. Then away it goes, making more copies of the specific nucleotide sequences that define the initial templates. But the interesting result was that these initial templates did not stay the same; they were not accurately copied. They got shorter and shorter until they reached the minimal size compatible with the sequence retaining self-copying properties. And as they got shorter, the copying process went faster. So what happened with natural selection in a test tube: the shorter templates that copied themselves faster became more numerous, while the larger ones were gradually eliminated. This looks like Darwinian evolution in a test tube. But the interesting result was that this evolution went one way: toward greater simplicity.

Simple and Yet Profound

At issue here is a simple and yet profound point of logic that continually seems to elude Darwinists as they are urged to come to terms with how it can be that the environment is able to bring about the information that leads to any interesting form of evolution. And just to be clear, what makes evolution interesting is that it purports to build all the nifty biological systems that we see around us. But most forms of evolution, whether in a biology lab or on a computer mainframe, build nothing interesting. 

The logical point at issue here is one the philosopher John Stuart Mill described back in the 19th century. He called it the “method of difference” and laid it out in his System of Logic. According to this method, to discover which of a set of circumstances is responsible for an observed difference in outcomes requires identifying a circumstance that is present when the outcome occurs and absent when it doesn’t occur. An immediate corollary of this method is that common circumstances cannot explain a difference in outcomes

So if selection, variation, and replication operating within an environment can produce wildly different types of evolution (information increasing, information decreasing, interesting, uninteresting, engineering like, organismic like, etc.), then something else besides these factors needs to be in play. Conservation of information says that the difference maker is information built into the environment. 

In any case, the method of difference shows that such information cannot be reducible to Darwinian processes, which is to say, to selection, variation, and replication (because these are common to all forms of Darwinian evolution). Darwinists, needless to say, don’t like that conclusion. But they are nonetheless stuck with it. The logic is airtight and it means that their theory is fundamentally incomplete. For more on this, see my article with Bob Marks titled “Life’s Conservation Law” (especially section 8). 

Evolution News

Dembski’s conclusions are consistent with expectations from information theory and the generalized 2nd law of thermodynamics; namely, that natural processes cause a system to lose information over the passage of time. If an increase in information is seen in any system (such as life from non-life, or the appearance of novel, functional body plans or physiological systems), then natural processes cannot have been the cause. If not natural, then the increase in information must have come from an intelligent agent (the only known source of functional information).

Comments
AF, algorithms and code are not the same, algorithms can be built into hardware, e.g. cam bars. This is the issue of soft/hard partitioning. Algorithms are stepwise goal directed procedures with initialisation, execution steps, halting. That is what RNA polymerase is doing. And of course, for protein assembly we definitely have code use. Indeed, in recent years we have extended these codes or redirected into storing general purpose data. This has been repeatedly brought up here at UD, but obviously has been studiously ignored. Even as you continue to sidestep what Lehninger has had to say. All of this is adding up. KFkairosfocus
September 4, 2022
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KF
AF, there you go again...
You can read minds sometimes, KF. I'm away for a few days and won't be troubling you much, if at all. Try and stick to the facts in my absence.Alan Fox
September 4, 2022
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Though KF has triggered me into thinking how gene regulation works for mRNAs and I see I am a bit behind the curve on promoter sequences. Some reading is in order for me.Alan Fox
September 4, 2022
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RNA polymerase constructs RNA on DNA step by step with initialisation and halting.
By directly templating and copying the sequence. There's no code, just pairing of G/C or U and A/T.Alan Fox
September 4, 2022
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AF, there you go again ducking initiation, elongation step by step, halting. Those are the elements of algorithms FYI. And no explanation on the attempt to dismiss codes in protein synthesis. Oh most learned sage, given Lehninger's status in biochem education for 50 years, explain why this text makes matter of fact reference to codes. KFkairosfocus
September 4, 2022
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...of course, so is the demonstrable need for finitely remote necessary being as world root as traversal of an actually infinite, causal-temporal thermodynamic succession of years etc is an infeasible supertask. This intersects with the Haldane challenge.
Everyone is entitled to their own religious view. What has this to do with biological sciences and protein synthesis?Alan Fox
September 4, 2022
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JVL, had to pause to respond to AF. Please don't overlook, that explanations have to cover all relevant factors. Including, that we are rational, responsible [so morally governed] creatures. The Haldane challenge is material in this context. KF PS, Haldane, for convenient record:
[JBSH, REFACTORED AS SKELETAL, AUGMENTED PROPOSITIONS:] "It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For
if [p:] my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain [–> taking in DNA, epigenetics and matters of computer organisation, programming and dynamic-stochastic processes; notice, "my brain," i.e. self referential] ______________________________ [ THEN] [q:] I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. [--> indeed, blindly mechanical computation is not in itself a rational process, the only rationality is the canned rationality of the programmer, where survival-filtered lucky noise is not a credible programmer, note the functionally specific, highly complex organised information rich code and algorithms in D/RNA, i.e. language and goal directed stepwise process . . . an observationally validated adequate source for such is _____ ?] [Corollary 1:] They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence [Corollary 2:] I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. [--> grand, self-referential delusion, utterly absurd self-falsifying incoherence] [Implied, Corollary 3: Reason and rationality collapse in a grand delusion, including of course general, philosophical, logical, ontological and moral knowledge; reductio ad absurdum, a FAILED, and FALSE, intellectually futile and bankrupt, ruinously absurd system of thought.]
In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” ["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209. Cf. here on (and esp here) on the self-refutation by self-falsifying self referential incoherence and on linked amorality.]
That is a self-referential, material factor. PPS, of course, so is the demonstrable need for finitely remote necessary being as world root as traversal of an actually infinite, causal-temporal thermodynamic succession of years etc is an infeasible supertask. This intersects with the Haldane challenge.kairosfocus
September 4, 2022
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I mean, this is so neat it bears repeating. The "beating heart", the essential catalytic core of the ribosome is a ribozyme, a length of RNA. How is this coded for in the DNA sequence? It isn't. The complementary copy is the ribozyme. Nothing has to be decoded or translated. It is just (I know) copied.Alan Fox
September 4, 2022
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AF, there you go again, refusing to acknowledge what is laid before you, RNA polymerase constructs RNA on DNA step by step with initialisation and halting. That is on top of protein synthesis where the code use pattern is clear and is matter of fact in undeniably expert sources such as Lehninger. Not to mention many other readily accessible sources of lesser rank. You have some 'splainin to do. KFkairosfocus
September 4, 2022
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PPS, nope, not all at once exhaustive searches, just the well known blind needle in haystack challenge you full well know. It does not matter if you sample by all at once dust, random walk, blend of the two or by grand ensemble of cases, if search to space ratio is utterly negligible, you are unlikely to succeed. Where, remember, the first relevant search is in a Darwin pond or the like. Notice, my toy illustration, 10^57 atoms as observers updating at a fast rxn rate 10^-14 s, each with a tray of 500 coins [more realistically, paramagnetic domains, following good old Mandle in the Manchester Physics series or L K Nash], 10^17 s. Sol sys search model, 10^88 samples from a config space of 3.27*10^150 microstates. Less than 1 in 10^62. For cosmos scope, try 10^80 atoms and 1,000 coins each, far more swamped. Notice, just the genome of a first viable cell involves 100 - 1,000 k bases. For body plans, 10 - 100+ mn bases. Search challenge is real, just as real as the islands of function pattern naturally exhibited by FSCO/I. If you don't like a 6500 reel as a simple toy case, compare the process-flow network of an oil refinery and that of cellular metabolism, which BTW has protein synthesis as a small corner. Recall, the cell has to integrate that with von Neumann/Drexler kinematic self replication.kairosfocus
September 4, 2022
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Similarly, kindly note the similar algorithmic pattern for creation of mRNA etc from DNA.
Nonsense. Between DNA strands, RNA strands, and DNA/RNA copying, there are hydrogen bonds designed (heh) in such a way so that adenine pairs with thymine and guanine pairs with cytosine/uracil. The result is duplication via a complementary strand. No algorithms necessary. This is basic stuff. The canonical genetic code only arises in protein synthesis, which is why RNA world is such a neatly plausible precursor.Alan Fox
September 4, 2022
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AF, more rhetorical stunts, here, empty turnabout projection. Let us anchor to a specific point as for some time you have tried to make it seem an ill founded dubious notion that there is algorithmic code in the cell. Why did you claim or suggest such and what is your response to Lehninger et al backing up the commonly stated view, one that is taught down to primary school level. And that's before we get to the direct import of start, elongate, halt elements in string data structures involving discrete state elements, here four not the two common in electronics. Of course there was that case of 3-state computers in the USSR that were quite promising and apparently cost effective. KF PS, just for convenient record, Lehninger:
"The information in DNA is encoded in its linear (one-dimensional) sequence of deoxyribonucleotide subunits . . . . A linear sequence of deoxyribonucleotides in DNA codes (through an intermediary, RNA) for the production of a protein with a corresponding linear sequence of amino acids . . . Although the final shape of the folded protein is dictated by its amino acid sequence, the folding of many proteins is aided by “molecular chaperones” . . . The precise three-dimensional structure, or native conformation, of the protein is crucial to its function." [Principles of Biochemistry, 8th Edn, 2021, pp 194 – 5. Now authored by Nelson, Cox et al, Lehninger having passed on in 1986. Attempts to rhetorically pretend on claimed superior knowledge of Biochemistry, that D/RNA does not contain coded information expressing algorithms using string data structures, collapse. We now have to address the implications of language, goal directed stepwise processes and underlying sophisticated polymer chemistry and molecular nanotech in the heart of cellular metabolism and replication.]
PPS, Similarly, kindly note the similar algorithmic pattern for creation of mRNA etc from DNA.kairosfocus
September 4, 2022
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The projection is strong with you, KF, arch knocker over of straw men. And you know it. Needle in haystack, one in a gazillion, all-at-once exhaustive searches... The list is long.Alan Fox
September 4, 2022
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JVL, there isn't and you know it. Orgel-Wicken FSCO/I has been observed as caused trillions of times. It never comes from blind chance and mechanical necessity, for very good reasons as blind needle in haystack search challenge demonstrates. It is not a simpler, more reliable explanation you wish to impose it is an ideologically motivated lockout of the only category of cause known to be effective. Lewontin's cat out of the bag moment haunts this matter. As to onward objections you set up and knock over strawmen. For example I simply pointed out that our ignorance on long distance travel cannot lock out far more direct observation of a reliable sign. As for using rejection of reliable sign to sugest and project to me unwarranted assumption, that is a first class violation of logic. As long as other intelligences of similar order are possible, signs count as evidence they were here. And you know it. KFkairosfocus
September 4, 2022
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Kairosfocus: We are examining a case of known reliable signs of intelligently directed configuration in a context antecedent to and constituent of our existence and to that of cell based life on earth. That clearly points to intelligences of a similar class. Not if there is a more parsimonious explanation that doesn't require assumed agents and processes. As to traversal of distances, that is a secondary matter, we do not know what is possible regarding long range travel in our cosmos. To assume such travel is even possible is science fiction at this point. Again, science is about what we know not what might be true. What we do not know should not be used to block what we can readily know on reliable, observed sign. We should not make conclusions based on assumptions with no basis in evidence.JVL
September 4, 2022
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JVL, the issue is the inference you hint at and invite by posing that as an objection not a mere observation. Which, you know. We are examining a case of known reliable signs of intelligently directed configuration in a context antecedent to and constituent of our existence and to that of cell based life on earth. That clearly points to intelligences of a similar class. As to traversal of distances, that is a secondary matter, we do not know what is possible regarding long range travel in our cosmos. What we do not know should not be used to block what we can readily know on reliable, observed sign. All of this you know. KFkairosfocus
September 4, 2022
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Kairosfocus: anthropomorphic fallacy and abuse of the logic of induction What I said is true: the only intelligent agents we have knowledge of that even come close to . . . what do you think the designer did? And when? . . . are human beings. You just assume there is some other being(s) out there, somewhere. What we demonstrate by example is that such entities are possible and what they can do. Possible but so far not observed or even detected. In that context if we find an object or state of affairs, X, with signs of intelligently directed configuration S, where we could not have been the source, then S is evidence for design by other intelligent agencies as cause of the evident design. But there is another explanation which requires fewer assumptions so is therefore more parsimonious. Your reasoning is motivated. Do you have good cause to infer that we are the only possible intelligences in the category? Your attempt to turn around my statement is noted. What I said is true: we have no knowledge or experience of any other intelligent beings in the universe. I happen to believe/hope there are some out there but there is zero evidence they exist and I admit that and do not attempt to shoe-horn them into any explanation I consider. If there are other intelligent beings in the universe the vast distances involved may mean we only ever communicate slowly via interstellar signals. We don't live in a Star Trek or Star Wars universe. Let's try and stick with what we know not what we wish. Don't use unknown agents as explanations.JVL
September 4, 2022
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AF, Hoyle was a Nobel equivalent prize holding Astrophysicist and held deep knowledge of statistical thermodynamics, thus the logic behind the second law: overwhelming statistical weight of clusters of microstates. As a result of that he fully understood that blind needle in haystack search without operations on a Wicken wiring diagram design, was and remains maximally implausible as a credible account of the origin of configuration based function for entities far more sophisticated than a jumbo jet. Jumbo jets are full of FSCO/I, and mere injection of energy -- tornadoes etc -- does not adequately explain their organisation, even if the tornado hits a junkyard in Seattle. As for the molecular nanotech using cell, not only is its metabolism FSCO/I rich but it is from a known but not yet effected class of machine, a von Neumann kinematic self replicator automaton, here coupled to an encapsulated, smart gated metabolic entity and embedding a coded information record involving algorithmic instructions. Since Paley's 2nd chapter we have/should have understood that this is a huge increment in Orgel-Wicken FSCO/I. That modern biological thought has often tried to argue that being an open, energy importing system is enough to escape this speaks volumes. As what needs to be imported is WORK -- forced, specifically organised or ordered motion -- according to a Wicken wiring diagram. KFkairosfocus
September 4, 2022
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JVL, anthropomorphic fallacy and abuse of the logic of induction, repeatedly corrected. First, we all know that SETI has spent huge sums on the search for other intelligences, hoping for a valid wow signal. Well, there is one, just not coming from outer space, it is in the cells of our bodies. Then, for the record, as you know full well, we are contingent creatures and as such cannot exhaust the category: possible language using, knowing, technology developing, creative intelligences. What we demonstrate by example is that such entities are possible and what they can do. In that context if we find an object or state of affairs, X, with signs of intelligently directed configuration S, where we could not have been the source, then S is evidence for design by other intelligent agencies as cause of the evident design. Do you have good cause to infer that we are the only possible intelligences in the category? _______ My bet, no. Rhetorical gambit fails and inference to the best explanation applies. KFkairosfocus
September 4, 2022
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Kairosfocus: FSCO/I reliably comes about by intelligently directed configuration. What is true: FSCO/I reliably comes about by intelligently directed HUMAN configuration. No other such agents have been detected or even defined. You want to assume them into existence but that's not cricket.JVL
September 4, 2022
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Analysis of blind, needle in haystack search challenge in large configuration spaces readily shows why.
Nothing to do with evolutionary processes then.Alan Fox
September 3, 2022
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Hoyle understood mathematics most evolutionary biologists do not.
How did you make those assessments, Bill? Have you examples of biologists demonstrating that they do not understand mathematics?Mathematically speaking, most means more than half. Did you conduct a survey? Send them a test? What was your sample size?Alan Fox
September 3, 2022
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There’s also the distinction that keeps getting glossed over on this blog, and, in more egregious cases, deliberately confused, between evolution and origins of life.
Joe Felsenstein has a couple of acronyms for it, STOOL and OTOOL, "switch to or over to the origin of life".Alan Fox
September 3, 2022
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Isn’t that just another version of Hoyle’s Fallacy?
It's the reality of combinatorial mathematics. Hoyle so called "fallacy" is actually evolutionist denial. Hoyle understood mathematics most evolutionary biologists do not.bill cole
September 3, 2022
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Sev, namecalling. We have a trillions member observational base that Orgel-Wicken type FSCO/I reliably comes about by intelligently directed configuration. Analysis of blind, needle in haystack search challenge in large configuration spaces readily shows why. Hoyle simply used a colourful metaphor. Specificity of organisation to achieve function is readily observed, as is the difference between high and low complexity, esp as WLOG we can discuss on strings. KFkairosfocus
September 3, 2022
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Seversky/80 re: Caspian/79 Yup......... There's also the distinction that keeps getting glossed over on this blog, and, in more egregious cases, deliberately confused, between evolution and origins of life. The "appearance" of proteins falls in the latter category. I'm unaware of any biologist who claims the latter problem has been solved (other than the occasional ID proponent who has solved the problem via the grand designer AKA God).chuckdarwin
September 3, 2022
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AF, obviously, you need to be reminded of Lehninger, pretty much as weighty a reference on the topic as you get:
"The information in DNA is encoded in its linear (one-dimensional) sequence of deoxyribonucleotide subunits . . . . A linear sequence of deoxyribonucleotides in DNA codes (through an intermediary, RNA) for the production of a protein with a corresponding linear sequence of amino acids . . . Although the final shape of the folded protein is dictated by its amino acid sequence, the folding of many proteins is aided by “molecular chaperones” . . . The precise three-dimensional structure, or native conformation, of the protein is crucial to its function." [Principles of Biochemistry, 8th Edn, 2021, pp 194 – 5. Now authored by Nelson, Cox et al, Lehninger having passed on in 1986. Attempts to rhetorically pretend on claimed superior knowledge of Biochemistry, that D/RNA does not contain coded information expressing algorithms using string data structures, collapse. We now have to address the implications of language, goal directed stepwise processes and underlying sophisticated polymer chemistry and molecular nanotech in the heart of cellular metabolism and replication.]
This was only necessary to show that your gaslighting rhetorical gambit cuts across the otherwise non controversial consensus since the 50's. Because you are aware of the devastating significance of finding coded algorithms in the heart of the cell, you have tried to rhetorically make it go away. Fail. Fail, that exposes your essentially irresponsible argumentation. KFkairosfocus
September 3, 2022
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Isn't that just another version of Hoyle's Fallacy?Seversky
September 3, 2022
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CD @ 78: Here's another quote from H. Yockey: “It is clear that the belief that a molecule of iso-1-cytochrome c or any other protein could appear by chance is based on faith.” (H. Yockey, "Information Theory and Molecular Biology", Cambridge University Press, 1992).Caspian
September 3, 2022
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Caspian/61 From the Preface, p. X of Yockey's book:
I show in this book that only because the genetic message is segregated, linear, and digital can it be transmitted from the origin of life to all present organisms and will be transmitted to all future life. This establishes Darwin’s theory of evolution as firmly as any science. The same genetic code, the same DNA, the same amino acids, and the genetic message unite all organisms, independent of morphology. (emphasis added to second sentence)
It's pretty common knowledge that Yockey was a materialist and no friend of ID. But the point here is the forcefulness that he musters for the theory of evolution.chuckdarwin
September 3, 2022
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