Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Why KeithS’s bomb is a damp squib

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In this short post, I’d like to explain what’s wrong with KeithS’s argument for unguided evolution. The argument, in a nutshell, goes like this:

1. We observe objective nested hierarchies (ONH)
2. Unguided evolution explains ONH
3. A designer explains ONH, but also a trillion alternatives.
4. Both unguided evolution and a designer are capable of causing ONH.
Conclusion: Unguided evolution is a trillion times better at explaining ONH.

The first thing I’d like to point out is that while KeithS, in his post over at TSZ leans heavily on the evidence assembled by Dr. Douglas Theobald in his article, 29+ Evidences of Macroevolution, it is very odd that Dr. Theobald himself does not put forward this argument anywhere in his article. On the contrary, he expressly declares, in his reply to creationist Ashley Camp’s critique:

This is not to say that God could not have created species independently and miraculously, yet gradually. While there currently is absolutely no scientific evidence for such an idea, gradual Divine direction of evolution is indeed consistent and compatible with common descent.

It is possible for a theist to see the theory of common descent, and the hierarchy which it predicts, as a reflection of the Creator’s divine plan—much as Sir Isaac Newton saw his laws of motion, and the ellipses and parabolas which they predict, as evidence of the Creator’s hand in our universe…

In fact, no theological assumptions or arguments are made at all in the essay. The “29 Evidences” is not an argument against creation—it is the scientific argument for common descent, no more, no less…

I personally believe that an omnipotent, omniscient Creator could have created in any manner that he chose. For a theist, the pertinent question is not “what is an omnipotent Creator capable of?” but rather “how exactly did/does the Creator create?”. The first question is purely theological, and as such is left unaddressed in the “29 Evidences”; in contrast, the second question is one that science can answer (given the assumption of a Creator).

The second point I’d like to make – and here I’m basically restating a point that William J. Murray made earlier, in mathematical language – is that KeithS has misapplied Bayes’ Theorem, which states: P(A|B) = P(A).[P(B|A)/P(B)],
where A is a proposition and B is the supporting evidence,
P(A), the prior probability, is the initial degree of belief in A,
P(A|B), the conditional probability, is the degree of belief in A, having taken B into account, and
the quotient P(B|A)/P(B) represents the support B provides for A.

A better way of stating Bayes’ Theorem is to expand the denominator, P(B). We can say that P(B) is equal to [P(B|A).P(A))+(P(B|~A).P(~A)], since if B is true, then either A is also true or A is false (and thus ~A is true). Hence:
P(A|B) = [P(A).P(B|A)]/[P(B|A).P(A))+(P(B|~A).P(~A)]
Where P(~A) is the probability of the initial degree of belief against A, or 1-P(A)
P(B|~A) is the degree of belief in B, given that the proposition A is false.

The problem is that KeithS has conflated two hypotheses: the hypothesis of common descent (which is very well-supported by the evidence that objective nested hierarchies exist in living things), and the hypothesis of unguided design (which he also claims is well-supported by the evidence that objective nested hierarchies exist in living things).

The first hypothesis is indeed well-supported by the evidence, as the only known processes that specifically generate unique, nested, hierarchical patterns are branching evolutionary processes. The probability that any other process would generate such hierarchies is vanishingly low.

But if KeithS wishes to argue against intelligently guided evolution, then the two alternative hypotheses he needs to consider are not:
A: a branching evolutionary process (also known as a Markov process) generated the objective nested hierarchies we find in living things; and
~A: an Intelligent Designer generated these objective nested hierarchies,

but instead:

A: an unguided process generated the objective nested hierarchies we find in living things; and
~A: an intelligently guided process generated these objective nested hierarchies.

The point KeithS makes in his essay is that on hypothesis ~A, the likelihood of B (objective nested hierarchies in living things) is very low. However, it is also true that on hypothesis A, the likelihood of B is very low, as the vast majority of unguided processes don’t generate objective nested hierarchies.

My third point is that KeithS’s argument assumes that the genetic and morphological features on the basis of which living things are classified into objective nested hierarchies were generated by the same process as the (unguided, Markovian) processes which generates the branches in the hierarchies. This is unlikely, even on a standard evolutionary view: features take time to evolve, and therefore would presumably have appeared at some time subsequent to the branch nodes themselves. Thus it could well be the case that while unguided processes explain the existence of objective nested hierarchies in the living world, guided processes are required to explain some or all of the features in these hierarchies.

My fourth point is that KeithS’s exclusion of the origin of life from his argument limits the force of his conclusion. At most, he can argue that objective nested hierarchies are best explained by unguided processes; but that is not the same as saying that living things themselves are best explained by these processes, or that the origin of life is due to an unguided process.

Finally, I’d like to point out that KeithS’s argument against Dr. Douglas Axe is factually mistaken. Nowhere in his paper, “The Case Against a Neo-Darwinian Origin of Protein Folds” does Dr. Axe make the argument KeithS imputes to him.

My time at the Internet cafe is up, so I shall stop here.

Comments
lifepsy @ 345
Getting it yet? Your argument has imploded on itself.
Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha, WIPEOUT!jstanley01
November 8, 2014
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From your OP KeithS
There are many choices available to a Designer who guides evolution. Only a tiny fraction of them lead to a inferable, objective nested hierarchy. The Designer would have to restrict himself to gradual changes and predominantly vertical inheritance of features in order to leave behind evidence of the kind we see.
This assertion needs to be argued for, and even it is true, why should it be a problem for ID? It’s really no more profound than saying the designer must use a gradual process to produce a result that leaves evidence of a gradual process.
In other words, our ‘common descent IDers’ face a dilemma like the one faced by the creationists. They can force guided evolution to match the evidence, but only by making a completely arbitrary assumption about the behavior of the Designer.
ID doesn’t need to force anything because ID is not committed to a world view. If there is evidence against common descent, so be it. That is only a problem for those who are committed to common descent and can't bear the thought countervailing evidence.
Unguided evolution doesn’t require any such arbitrary assumptions. It matches the evidence without them, and is therefore a superior explanation. And because unguided evolution predicts a nested hierarchy of the kind we actually observe in nature, out of the trillions of alternatives available to a Designer who guides evolution, it is literally trillions of times better than ID at explaining the evidence.
There isn’t a shred of evidence to support the proposition that an unguided process of gradual changes can produce biodiversity.
This is a big problem for IDers. They concede that unguided evolution can bring about microevolutionary changes, but they claim that it cannot be responsible for macroevolutionary changes. Yet they give no plausible reasons why microevolutionary changes, accumulating over a long period of time, should fail to produce macroevolutionary changes. All they can assert is that somehow there is a barrier that prevents microevolution from accumulating and turning into macroevolution.
If you don’t understand the difference in scale and complexity between increasing the size of a bird’s beak and transforming one body plan into another again and again, then I cannot help you.StephenB
November 8, 2014
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KeithS
2. You assert that “nested hierarchies are not what we are finding.” That’s incorrect for nested hierarchies, and it’s also incorrect for objective nested hierarchies.
If you mean a nested hierarchy of shared traits, I agree. There is no question that they exist. The issue is that they are not found consistently and that they do not prove the "tree of life." model. More importantly, their existence poses no problems for ID.StephenB
November 8, 2014
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lifepsy: If the traits that define a group undergo rapid loss and/or reversals then voila, that group’s nested hierarchy signal thereafter has been masked. keith s
We know that this has not happened in the case I am relying on, which is Theobald’s Figure 1, the cladogram of the 30 major taxa. If the signal had been lost, that objective nested hierarchy could not have been inferred. It was inferred, to an astounding accuracy of 1 in 10^38.
Epic fail again, Keith. The premise of your entire argument (see post #1) is that unguided evolution NECESSARILY PREDICTS a nested hierarchy pattern. Read it again if you've already forgotten. That is how you claim to be able to correctly infer unguided evolution in the first place - a double-sided coin that only results in an objective nested hierarchy remember? Getting it yet? Your argument has imploded on itself. It is not my fault if you cannot understand something so simple.lifepsy
November 8, 2014
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StephenB @334, Your comment is full of confusions and misconceptions. 1. You don't understand the difference between nested hierarchies and objective nested hierarchies. 2. You assert that "nested hierarchies are not what we are finding." That's incorrect for nested hierarchies, and it's also incorrect for objective nested hierarchies. 3. You write
Either way, it is not necessary to deny the existence of nested hierarchies in order to argue that certain features in nature are designed. A designer can use them or not use them... ID is not inherently anti-common descent.
Of course it isn't, and my argument takes that into account. It is just as fatal to guided evolution as it is to creationism or common design. To have any hope of refuting my argument, you'll need to understand it first. Here's my OP. I would suggest reading it and Theobald, too.keith s
November 8, 2014
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lifepsy, You are like a weasel with a rag dipped in rabbit juice, to borrow rich's memorable phrase. You're hanging onto this idea as if it were your salvation:
If the traits that define a group undergo rapid loss and/or reversals then voila, that group’s nested hierarchy signal thereafter has been masked.
We know that this has not happened in the case I am relying on, which is Theobald's Figure 1, the cladogram of the 30 major taxa. If the signal had been lost, that objective nested hierarchy could not have been inferred. It was inferred, to an astounding accuracy of 1 in 10^38. Your objection is irrelevant. The evidence has spoken -- loudly. (This goes for you, too, StephenB.)keith s
November 8, 2014
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StephenB You can begin by consulting UD’s resource section concerning “frequently raised but weak objections to ID. I wasn't raising objections. I merely asked if you could provide some details on ID's position like a timeline or a physical mechanism. If the answer is no I'll accept that.Adapa
November 8, 2014
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Adapa
What is ID’s position?
You can begin by consulting UD's resource section concerning "frequently raised but weak objections to ID."StephenB
November 8, 2014
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Zachriel 333
lifepsy: According to your beliefs you have small, fully terrestrial deer-like creatures transforming into a fully aquatic whale-like creature in roughly 10-15 million years. This rate of change is more than enough to potentially mask the signal of nested traits in the event of sufficient trait losses/reversals/convergences, etc. It’s false. Even with the posited changes in cetaceans, they still clearly classify as mammals, amniotes, vertebrates, chordates, eukaryotes — in that hierarchical ordering.
I wasn't claiming cetaceans do not fall into a nested hierarchy but was using their alleged rate of change as a reference point. Anyways... let me make it simpler for you... If the traits that define a group undergo rapid loss and/or reversals then voila, that group's nested hierarchy signal thereafter has been masked. Example: If identifiable vertebrate traits are lost then so is the signal that groups the organism in vertebrates. This obviously becomes a problem if vertebrates begin "evolving" away from vertebrate traits shortly after they obtain them. This is common sense. I don't think it can be explained more clearly.
lifepsy: You and Zachriel apparently hold some mystical idea about natural selection having predisposition towards and subsequent immutability of specific character trait assemblages, i.e. evolutionary destinies. Zachriel: Actually, *as Darwin pointed out*, natural selection often clouds the nested hierarchy. Non-adaptive traits are often better for discerning evolutionary relationships.
You can call the traits random if it makes you feel better. However this only weakens your position as there is even greater potential for those traits to be lost. Again you must appeal to some mystical notion of immutability that preserves basal traits as the nested hierarchy is gradually pieced together. However the conclusion is that Evolution/branching descent, does not necessarily predict a nested hierarchy pattern.lifepsy
November 8, 2014
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F/N: Complex, per AmHD -- Consisting of interconnected or interwoven parts; composite. This directly fits Orgel and Wicken, and work on metrics seeks to understand and quantify relative degree of such. The basic approach, chain of y/n q's to specify config relevant to membership in a separately specifiable zone T in W (especially on function), is a quantification and extension by that, not the sort of utterly disparate usage being suggested by objections above. I am beginning to think the conclusion, reject design theory or thought is primary and at the root (driven by worldview level a prioris), the only issue is to find a seemingly plausible lab coat clad rationalisation. KFkairosfocus
November 8, 2014
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Joe G is not happy about his banning: Has Barry Arrington totally lost it?keith s
November 8, 2014
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StephenB That is correct Well no, it is incorrect. Bapteste was only making the observation that among single celled organisms things like HGT make the tree of life at the very base more like a bush. Once you get into multicellular life the OHN of the phylogenetic tree is not in question.Adapa
November 8, 2014
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StephenB It would help a great deal if you understood ID’s position before presuming to critique it. What is ID's position? The only position I've ever seen articulated is "Life is intelligently designed". There are zero details beyond that. I certainly can be mistaken so can you please supply any details like a timeline or by what physical mechanisms ID operated? Thanks.Adapa
November 8, 2014
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Joe
Dr Eric Bapteste, an evolutionary biologist at the Pierre and Marie Curie University in Paris, said: “For a long time the holy grail was to build a tree of life. We have no evidence at all that the tree of life is a reality.”
That is correct.StephenB
November 8, 2014
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KeithS
The point of the last example is to show that the ID position is marred by the same atrociously bad logic.
But you would have no way of knowing if ID's logic is bad since you are not familiar with ID's logic.
If you disagree, you need to show that the ID can explain the objective nested hierarchy without employing the same bad logic that Bob uses.
There are three problems here. First, nested hierarchies are not what we are finding. Second, even granting nested hierarchies, ID's designer could either use them or not use them. Third, you don't understand ID's methods, so you cannot really comment on the second point. SB: No ID proponent would ever say that God “imitates” unguided evolution.
They wouldn’t choose those words, I’m sure, but the idea is the same.
You are contradicting yourself. Earlier, you said,
I am not “characterizing him as the embodiment of ID” in those examples. He is supposed to appear ridiculous to everyone, including ID proponents, in the first three examples. And I think he succeeds. He is, as you say, a nitwit.
Now you say that the idea "is the same." First, you falsely characterize Bob's argument as ID's argument. Then, when I call you on it, you say you didn't do that. Now you return to the same claim. Try to take one position and stay with it. If nitwit Bob doesn't represent ID, then there is no reason to even bring him into the discussion. It's an unnecessary distraction.
Vincent Torley even posted an OP arguing that the Designer would produce an objective nested hierarchy of exactly the kind that unguided evolution would produce, were it operating.
ID has room for that position, but it is not committed to it. It would help a great deal if you understood ID's position before presuming to critique it. For some reason, though, you seem to feel that it isn't necessary to understand an argument in order to comment on it. This is a curious position to take.
And for good reason. The ONH is real, so the ID proponent must explain it somehow.
You are not entitled to claim nested hierarchies as an indisputalble fact. It isn't. However, even if it is a fact, it could be incorporated into ID's paradigm. SB: [a] Explain why all your scenarios misrepresent ID’s arguments and transform them into strawmen. Or, if you think they don’t misrepresent ID’s arguments, tell me why. [b] In your own words, describe ID’s argument to the best of your ability. If you are going to critique ID’s method of design detection you should at least be able to show that you understand it.
The topic of this thread is my argument, not ID’s purported methods of detecting design.
I understand. You cannot articulate ID's argument because you don't understand it. That is a problem.
Can you refute my argument?
Yes. Easily. The existence of nested hierarchies is not an indisputable fact. The evidence does not support that claim. Either way, it is not necessary to deny the existence of nested hierarchies in order to argue that certain features in nature are designed. A designer can use them or not use them. Again, we have the same problem. You are trying to argue against ID's paradigms without first taking the trouble to become familiar with them. ID is not inherently anti-common descent.StephenB
November 8, 2014
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lifepsy: Nowhere did I suggest they are not mammals. You have a habit of completely avoiding the point. Even though cetaceans have been under rapid adaptive evolution, if we look at the entirety of traits, they still classify as mammals. lifepsy: Try again. Be happy to. Here's your claim. lifepsy: According to your beliefs you have small, fully terrestrial deer-like creatures transforming into a fully aquatic whale-like creature in roughly 10-15 million years. This rate of change is more than enough to potentially mask the signal of nested traits in the event of sufficient trait losses/reversals/convergences, etc. It's false. Even with the posited changes in cetaceans, they still clearly classify as mammals, amniotes, vertebrates, chordates, eukaryotes — in that hierarchical ordering. You also exhibit an ignorance of evolution even as of Darwin's time, which we addressed above, but you must have missed. lifepsy: You and Zachriel apparently hold some mystical idea about natural selection having predisposition towards and subsequent immutability of specific character trait assemblages, i.e. evolutionary destinies. Zachriel: Actually, *as Darwin pointed out*, natural selection often clouds the nested hierarchy. Non-adaptive traits are often better for discerning evolutionary relationships. Box: this is all you have said about the Cambrian Explosion; as far as I can see. Would you expand on that, please? Are we talking about a top-down branching process? A top-down process is still a branching tree. Near the node, we have many branches, fewer later on, while some die out. That's called adaptive radiation. It's posited to occur when a new niche becomes available. Vishnu: Of course, the earth’s weather system might very well be designed processes that operate along certain lines, harnessing and exploiting stochastic elements There's no evidence of that, and there are robust theories of weather that render a designer superfluous. Vishnu: ID is perfectly consistent with the ONH or its opposite. ID doesn't entail the nested hierarchy. ID doesn't entail elliptical orbits. Branching descent entails the nested hierarchy. Gravity theory entails elliptical orbits. That's fine, as far as it goes; however, the entailments we do have strongly support branching descent and gravity theory. Vishnu: Do you agree with keiths “bomb” No. The word "trillions" is clearly referring to Theobald, so the mistake is in #2. It should be branching descent explains the objective nested hierarchy. There would still be nesting whether the tree grew naturally, or whether a gardener trimmed and shaped the tree. http://www.bonsai-made-easy.com/images/maplecare.jpg It takes additional evidence to determine whether the tree grew naturally or whether it was artificially shaped. Regardless, the evidence for the nested hierarchy strongly supports branching descent. Vishnu: and Rain Fairy arguments? That one doesn't appear expressed on this thread, but fairies would either be an extraneous entity as far as explaining the weather, or one without entailments. Vishnu: I would tend to agree that evolutionary, niche filling processes would tend to build nested hierarchies. However does this obviate an intelligent design of the system? In and of itself, no. However, there is strong support for branching descent. Imagine, Poe and the raven share an ancestor! That is a profound finding, and one that helps understand the balance of the evidence. Indeed, once you begin to come to grips with common descent, then the support for the Theory of Evolution comes into focus. Any ID theory must explain the nested hierarchy, as well as explain all the other evidence that the vast majority of scientists consider convincing for the Theory of Evolution. Vishnu: The designer might wish to utilize designed, evolutionary niche-filling, variation-producing processes, that harness stochastic elements to achieve those ends. Sure. The designer has an inordinate fondness for beetles, er, the nested hierarchy, er, elliptical orbits. You can make any ad hoc claims you want, but providing testable entailments is what gives it scientific merit. And don't forget, it has to be consistent with the evidence for branching descent. Waving your hands and saying it doesn't matter is just, well hand waving. - While I nodded, nearly napping, suddenly there came a tapping, As of some one gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door. “’Tis some visitor,” I muttered, “tapping at my chamber door— Only this and nothing more.”Zachriel
November 8, 2014
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And lest we forget: Charles Darwin's tree of life is 'wrong and misleading', claim scientists:
Dr Eric Bapteste, an evolutionary biologist at the Pierre and Marie Curie University in Paris, said: "For a long time the holy grail was to build a tree of life. We have no evidence at all that the tree of life is a reality."
WhoopsJoe
November 8, 2014
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Bob was walking through the woods with his evolutionist friend who was dedrologist. They came to a stand of apple trees in which each row was evenly spaced. Bob said they must be in someone's apple grove. His friend said nonsense these are trees and trees are natural. Besides there isn't anyone around, no houses nearby, no tools and no other signs of humans. Who has the better hypothesis?Joe
November 8, 2014
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Zachriel:
With organisms, there is only a single rational nested hierarchy.
So prokaryotes aren't organisms? There isn't an objective nested hierarchy with prokaryotes.Joe
November 8, 2014
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F/N: I have expanded my response to KS on the caricaturing of Newton's account of planetary orbits and his thought on God as Architect of the cosmos, here, including addressing the proper understanding of the ID explanatory inference filter. The Paley case also comes in for a mention. KFkairosfocus
November 8, 2014
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PS: There is a point by point refutation of your latest caricatures of design theory at 193 above. You refused to deal with it seriously (or to make amends for some unworthy personalities), and continue in much the same vein with SB. At this stage, on fair comment, it seems quite clear that you will not respond appropriately to evidence or reason that runs contrary to your ideological indoctrination, and are not to be taken seriously save as an example of what has gone so sadly wrong with the intellectual culture of our day.kairosfocus
November 8, 2014
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KS: It has been repeatedly poinrted out to you by several people, with reasons and evidence, that you are distorting the thought and work of design thinkers to the point of strawman caricature. To date, we find no good reason to see that you are willing to accurately summarise what design thinkers actually think. You have repeatedly set up loaded assertions in axioms for your "challenges" that beg big questions on the empirically warranted capacity of blind watchmaker chance and necessity driven mechanisms to address origin of body plans. You have pretended that OOL is not relevant to the power of these mechanisms. You have tried to suggest in the teeth of quantification and repeated examples that FSCO/I is ill defined and not quantifiable. And more. Where, for years you have been a prominent critic in the penumbra of objector sites, with particular reference to original posts at TSZ. None of this commends you, your views, or the seriousness of the claimed objections. I suggest to you that it is time for pretty serious change. KFkairosfocus
November 8, 2014
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StephenB:
How could we not agree? Bob, as you describe him, is a nitwit. That you would try to characterize him as the embodiment of ID indicates, once again, that you are not acquainted with the principles of design detection..
I am not "characterizing him as the embodiment of ID" in those examples. He is supposed to appear ridiculous to everyone, including ID proponents, in the first three examples. And I think he succeeds. He is, as you say, a nitwit. The point of the last example is to show that the ID position is marred by the same atrociously bad logic. If you disagree, you need to show that the ID can explain the objective nested hierarchy without employing the same bad logic that Bob uses. Can you do that?
It is Bob’s argument that is self-contradictory. On the one hand, he says that God guides evolution. On the other hand, he says that God imitated unguided evolution.
Those ideas aren't contradictory. It is possible for a designer to guide evolution in a way that mimics unguided evolution.
No ID proponent would ever say that God “imitates” unguided evolution.
They wouldn't choose those words, I'm sure, but the idea is the same. Vincent Torley even posted an OP arguing that the Designer would produce an objective nested hierarchy of exactly the kind that unguided evolution would produce, were it operating. And for good reason. The ONH is real, so the ID proponent must explain it somehow.
I have answered all your “challenges,” but you have avoided all of mine. Very well, I will give you a pass on all but two of then: [a] Explain why all your scenarios misrepresent ID’s arguments and transform them into strawmen. Or, if you think they don’t misrepresent ID’s arguments, tell me why. [b] In your own words, describe ID’s argument to the best of your ability. If you are going to critique ID’s method of design detection you should at least be able to show that you understand it.
The topic of this thread is my argument, not ID's purported methods of detecting design. Can you refute my argument?keith s
November 8, 2014
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KeithS
Okay, so you answer “Bob’s friend” for scenarios 1 through 3. Good. We agree on those.
How could we not agree? Bob, as you describe him, is a nitwit. That you would try to characterize him as the embodiment of ID indicates, once again, that you are not acquainted with the principles of design detection.. KeithS
Your complaint doesn’t make sense.Your complaint doesn’t make sense. Bob thinks God guided evolution. His friend the biologist does not. Two different people, two different viewpoints. Nothing self-contradictory about that.
It is Bob's argument that is self-contradictory. On the one hand, he says that God guides evolution. On the other hand, he says that God imitated unguided evolution. This scenario is not only illogical it has nothing to do with ID's argument. No ID proponent would ever say that God "imitates" unguided evolution. So, you are still promoting a strawman. I have answered all your "challenges," but you have avoided all of mine. Very well, I will give you a pass on all but two of then: [a] Explain why all your scenarios misrepresent ID's arguments and transform them into strawmen. Or, if you think they don't misrepresent ID's arguments, tell me why. [b] In your own words, describe ID's argument to the best of your ability. If you are going to critique ID's method of design detection you should at least be able to show that you understand it.StephenB
November 8, 2014
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StephenB, Okay, so you answer "Bob's friend" for scenarios 1 through 3. Good. We agree on those. You had some trouble with #4:
4. Bob is hanging out at the office of a friend who is an evolutionary biologist. The biologist shows Bob how the morphological and molecular data establish the phylogenetic tree of the 30 major taxa of life to an amazing accuracy of 38 decimal places. “There couldn’t be a better confirmation of unguided evolution,” the biologist says. “Don’t be ridiculous,” Bob replies. “All of those lifeforms were clearly designed. It’s just that the Designer chose to imitate unguided evolution, instead of picking one of the trillions of other options available to him.” Who has the better theory, Bob or his friend?
You wrote:
Scenario #4 is self contradictory. If the objective nested hierarchy exists because God guided nature to that end, then it cannot also have been caused by an unguided process.
Your complaint doesn't make sense. Bob thinks God guided evolution. His friend the biologist does not. Two different people, two different viewpoints. Nothing self-contradictory about that. Give it another shot.keith s
November 7, 2014
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KeithS
Why are you afraid to take the challenge?
There is no challenge to it.
All you have to do is answer the four questions by indicating who has the better theory, Bob or his friend.
Is this supposed to be hard? In scenarios 1 through 3, Bob's friend has the better argument since Bob's arguments are totally irrational. Clearly, they are not ID's arguments. In argument 4, its a tie since both arguments are irrational.
Then, if your answers differ, you need to explain exactly why.
The answers for 1 through 3 do not differ for reasons already explained.
If you are an ID supporter, then you are making exactly the same mistake as Bob does in the four examples above, using the same broken logic. Isn’t that a little embarrassing? It might be time to rethink your position.
The broken logic belongs to you exclusively. None of the arguments that you presented bear even the slightest resemblance to ID's argument. Clearly, you do not understand the methods of design detection.
That’s all.
Is that your way of saying that you have no answer to my refutations: Scenario #1 [a] You do not even describe the arrangement of parts that prompts Bob to make a design inference. Do they form a word? Are they structured? What pattern did Bob observe? [b] You do not say whether it is the pebbles, particles, grains of sand, or rocks that are supposed to form the pattern. On the contrary, you try to agglomerate all of them into a unified whole, which makes no sense. [c] If there is no empirical evidence to suggest that anything was designed, then there is no reason for Bob to say “that every rock, pebble, grain of sand and silt particle was deliberately placed in its exact position by a Streambed Designer.” He is not making an ID argument. Your objection is a strawman. Scenario #2. There is evidence for an explosion and against the proposition that nature created the observed effects. Thus, the most reasonable inference is that an explosion occurred (by design). Even if someone planted the fake evidence, the observed effects cannot be reasonably attributed nature’s operation. Scenario #3. Angels and gravity have nothing to do with the methods of drawing an inference to design from empirical evidence? Scenario #4 is self contradictory. If the objective nested hierarchy exists because God guided nature to that end, then it cannot also have been caused by an unguided process. All the arguments presented are strawman arguments. You have not addressed that issue at all, nor have you confronted my stated reasons for saying why they are strawman arguments.StephenB
November 7, 2014
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Vishnu,
The Rain Fairy has no sound rational arguments based on evidence. ID does, as mentioned in #293.
Neither one does. They are both invoked merely to plug gaps, or presumed gaps, in our knowledge. And yes, meteorology has gaps -- every science does! And they are both based on atrociously bad logic. The Rain Fairy hypothesis is laughable for the same reason that ID is laughable. If a natural explanation works a trillion times better, who would be crazy enough to invent a Rain Fairy or an Intelligent Designer?keith s
November 7, 2014
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keiths:
12. If we take that approach and assume, temporarily and for the sake of argument alone, that the designer is responsible for the diversity of life, we can see that ID does does not predict an objective nested hierarchy out of the trillions of possibilities.
Vishnu:
What I mean to say is: how can we “see” this any better if we assume the premise, since ID makes no predictions at all regarding an ONH?
I explained this to Box earlier:
Does anyone else want to step in and try to explain this to Box? It’s getting tiring. Box, For ID to have a chance, you have to assume a nonzero probability that the designer would produce an ONH. If the probability were zero, then design would be ruled out. Once you assume a nonzero probability, as you must, then the question arises: what value do you assign? Since you wish to minimize the assumptions you are making about the designer, you cannot assume that the designer is more likely to design with an ONH motif versus the other possibilities. You also cannot assume that the designer is less likely to design with an ONH motif versus the other possibilities. That means you must assign equal probabilities to the ONH and the trillions of other possible outcomes. Once you do that, my argument kicks in, and ID is rejected because it is trillions of times worse at explaining the ONH versus unguided evolution. Think about it for a while, rather than dashing off another ill-considered reply.
Vishnu:
I would tend to agree that evolutionary, niche filling processes would tend to build nested hierarchies.
Not just nested hierarchies, but objective nested hierarchies -- provided that the mutation rate is low enough and inheritance is primarily vertical.
However does this obviate an intelligent design of the system?
Do you mean 'obviate', or 'preclude'? If the former, then I would point out that all you need for the "system" to get started is replication with heritable variation and differential reproductive success. If the latter, then no, the existence of an ONH-producing evolutionary process does not preclude the possibility that the initial setup was done by design. But if you accept that the subsequent process involved random mutation plus natural selection, then congratulations -- you're a Darwinist!keith s
November 7, 2014
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keiths: If you think you have a whiz-bang refutation of my argument, pause and ask yourself this question: Could my whiz-bang defense of ID be used equally well to defend the Rain Fairy hypothesis? If the answer is yes, you’ve got a problem — unless you are willing to convert to Rain Fairyism.
The Rain Fairy has no sound rational arguments based on evidence. ID does, as mentioned in #293. You may disagree with ID's assessment of the issues I have cited, and there are others, but that's a whole different discussion with no parity whatsoever to your Rain Fairy. If you want to discuss ID, the merits and demeteris, that would be great. And a refreshing difference. But you're not discussing ID. You merely assume ID is false, make unwarranted assertions, and think you have a compelling argument. You don't.Vishnu
November 7, 2014
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Zachriel: Of course, we could suppose a designer with an inordinate fondness for beetles nested hierarchies, but that is a scientifically vacuous claim unless you ascribe testable properties to the designer that imply such a fondness.
The designer might wish to utilize designed, evolutionary niche-filling, variation-producing processes, that harness stochastic elements to achieve those ends. Nobody knows. As far as I know, ID is not based on, nor limited by the ONH. Personally, I'm fine with ONH, with one caveat. But it's a trivial caveat. ONH is consistent with an intelligent designer. Then why suspect a designer? See #293. What's laughable is keiths "bomb" and Rain Fairy arguments. (Assumptions masquerading as arguments, actually.) I am curious, Zachriel. Do you agree with keiths “bomb” and Rain Fairy arguments?Vishnu
November 7, 2014
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