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Why Up When Down is Just As Good And A Lot Easier?

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Phinehas asks Neil Rickert a fascinating question about the supposed direction of evolution.  Neil says he will address it in a separate thread, and I started this one for that purpose.  The rest of the post is Phenehas’ question to Neil:

@Neil I also appreciate the professional tone. I am a skeptic regarding what evolution can actually accomplish. In keeping with your demonstrated patience, I’d be grateful if you would give serious consideration to something that keeps tripping me up. I’ve often thought of natural selection as the heuristic to random mutations’ exhaustive search.

A path-finding algorithm can be aided in finding a path from point A to point B by using distance to B as a heuristic to narrow the search space. Without a heuristic, you are left to blind chance. It is said that evolution has no purpose or goal, so there is no point B. It is also claimed that evolution isn’t simply the result of blind chance, so a heuristic would seem to be required. Somehow, natural selection is supposed to address both of these concerns. Nature selects for fitness, we are told, so somehow we have a heuristic even without a point B.

But what is fitness? How does it work as a heuristic? How is it defined? Evidently, it is all about reproductive success. But how does one measure reproductive success? This is where things get fuzzy for me. Surely evolution is a story about the rise of more and more complex organisms. Isn’t this how the tree of life is laid out? Surely it is the complexity of highly developed organisms that evolution seeks to explain. Surely Mt. Improbable has man near its peak and bacteria near its base. But by what metric is man more successful at reproducing than bacteria? If I am a sponge somewhere between the two extremes, how is a step toward bacteria any less of a point B for me than a step toward man? Why should the fitness heuristic prefer a step upward in complexity toward man in any way whatsoever over a step downward in complexity toward bacteria?

It seems that, under the more obvious metrics for calculating reproductive success, bacteria are hard to beat. Even more, a rise in complexity, if anything, would appear to lead to less reproductive success and not more. So how can natural selection be any sort of heuristic for helping us climb Mt Improbable’s complexity when every simpler organism at the base of the mountain is at least as fit in passing on its genes as the more complex organisms near it’s peak? And without this heuristic, how are we not back to a blind, exhaustive search?

Comments
Neil " I see a quaint inn with a vacancy sign, so I stop in and make arrangements to stay there for the night." Hopefully it's not Bates Motel!Eugen
March 25, 2013
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@Neil Thank you for your response, especially given your busy schedule. I think the title does a decent job summing up my skepticism. In fact, it might be a bit closer to the mark than your analogy. Based on the analogy, I'm wondering whether my main point was too subtle or unclear. I'll try to do better.
It is simplicity, rather than complexity, that is an indicator of design.
Perhaps you mean elegance? While I'm not that good at golf, I think I could probably get a golf ball from tee to hole with a bit more elegance than purely natural forces like wind, earthquakes, gophers, and the like. But to say my methods were less complex might be to take for granted the near-miraculous feats that a sentient, contingent agent can accomplish with seeming ease. Incidentally, this is where I tend to get hung up in the micro vs. macro debate. For some, it is simply a matter of quantity, but I see it as more of an issue of elegance or even accuracy.
For evolution, complexity appears to increase.
Yes! This gets more to the point of what I am trying to understand. When I look at evolution's tree of life, it seems like the arrows point consistently toward greater complexity. Based on the evolutionary narrative and the way the data is organized and presented, it is almost as if you could overlay evolution with a big, fat arrow labelled "Increasing Complexity". Yet if natural selection has any heuristic or any big, fat arrow of its own (labelled "Increasing Fitness," natch) at best you could say that this arrow was orthogonal to an increase in complexity, and it certainly appears that it could actually be pointing in the exact opposite direction. So how can the second be any sort of an aid or explanation for the first? Is there some way to define increasing fitness such that increasing complexity would be a natural result? Unfortunately, I'm not really able to mine enough from your analogy to bring any real clarity to this particular issue. I also fear that trying to express my reservations in terms of your analogy might stretch it past its breaking point. Still, I appreciate the effort you put into it and hope you'll find the time to zero in on what it is I'm trying to understand.Phinehas
March 25, 2013
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How to make judgments about fitness?
A zebra having longer leg bones that enable it to run faster than other zebras will leave more offspring only if escape from predators is really the problem to be solved, if a slightly greater speed will really decrease the chance of being taken and if longer leg bones do not interfere with some other limiting physiological process. Lions may prey chiefly on old or injured zebras likely in any case to die soon, and it is not even clear that it is speed that limits the ability of lions to catch zebras. Greater speed may cost the zebra something in feeding efficiency, and if food rather than predation is limiting, a net selective disadvantage might result from solving the wrong problem. Finally, a longer bone might break more easily, or require greater developmental resources and metabolic energy to produce and maintain, or change the efficiency of the contraction of the attached muscles. Richard Lewontin.
Box
March 25, 2013
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Barry, Neil doesn't accept darwinism so he isn't going to support it. However his use of the word "evolved" as in the vacation just evolved as I went along. is misleading. Developed is more like it. Now if he repeated the trip, ie reproduced it, left out the bad, kept the good and added something new. Then perhaps he would have an evolving trip, by design ;).Joe
March 25, 2013
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supplemental notes:
Can Darwin’s enemy, math, rescue him? – May 2011 Excerpt: However, mathematical population geneticists mainly deny that natural selection leads to optimization of any useful kind. This fifty-year old schism is intellectually damaging in itself, and has prevented improvements in our concept of what fitness is. (On a job description from Oxford seeking a mathematician to ‘fix’ the problems within population genetics) https://uncommondescent.com/darwinism/can-darwin%E2%80%99s-enemy-math-rescue-him/ With a Startling Candor, Oxford Scientist Admits a Gaping Hole in Evolutionary Theory - November 2011 Excerpt: As of now, we have no good theory of how to read [genetic] networks, how to model them mathematically or how one network meshes with another; worse, we have no obvious experimental lines of investigation for studying these areas. There is a great deal for systems biology to do in order to produce a full explanation of how genotypes generate phenotypes,,, http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/11/with_a_startling_candor_oxford052821.html The next evolutionary synthesis: Jonathan BL Bard (2011) Excerpt: We now know that there are at least 50 possible functions that DNA sequences can fulfill [8], that the networks for traits require many proteins and that they allow for considerable redundancy [9]. The reality is that the evolutionary synthesis says nothing about any of this; for all its claim of being grounded in DNA and mutation, it is actually a theory based on phenotypic traits. This is not to say that the evolutionary synthesis is wrong, but that it is inadequate – it is really only half a theory! http://www.biosignaling.com/content/pdf/1478-811X-9-30.pdf
bornagain77
March 25, 2013
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as to "When Down is Just As Good And A Lot Easier?"
“The First Rule of Adaptive Evolution”: Break or blunt any functional coded element whose loss would yield a net fitness gain - Michael Behe - December 2010 Excerpt: In its most recent issue The Quarterly Review of Biology has published a review by myself of laboratory evolution experiments of microbes going back four decades.,,, The gist of the paper is that so far the overwhelming number of adaptive (that is, helpful) mutations seen in laboratory evolution experiments are either loss or modification of function. Of course we had already known that the great majority of mutations that have a visible effect on an organism are deleterious. Now, surprisingly, it seems that even the great majority of helpful mutations degrade the genome to a greater or lesser extent.,,, I dub it “The First Rule of Adaptive Evolution”: Break or blunt any functional coded element whose loss would yield a net fitness gain. http://behe.uncommondescent.com/2010/12/the-first-rule-of-adaptive-evolution/ Michael Behe talks about the preceding paper on this podcast: Michael Behe: Challenging Darwin, One Peer-Reviewed Paper at a Time - December 2010 http://intelligentdesign.podomatic.com/player/web/2010-12-23T11_53_46-08_00 A. L. Hughes’s New Non-Darwinian Mechanism of Adaption Was Discovered and Published in Detail by an ID Geneticist 25 Years Ago – Wolf-Ekkehard Lönnig – December 2011 Excerpt: The original species had a greater genetic potential to adapt to all possible environments. In the course of time this broad capacity for adaptation has been steadily reduced in the respective habitats by the accumulation of slightly deleterious alleles (as well as total losses of genetic functions redundant for a habitat), with the exception, of course, of that part which was necessary for coping with a species’ particular environment….By mutative reduction of the genetic potential, modifications became “heritable”. — As strange as it may at first sound, however, this has nothing to do with the inheritance of acquired characteristics. For the characteristics were not acquired evolutionarily, but existed from the very beginning due to the greater adaptability. In many species only the genetic functions necessary for coping with the corresponding environment have been preserved from this adaptability potential. The “remainder” has been lost by mutations (accumulation of slightly disadvantageous alleles) — in the formation of secondary species. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/12/a_l_hughess_new053881.html
and though I certainly like the detail and clarity with which Phinehas fleshed this question of 'fitness' out better than I've seen it fleshed out before, here is my crude, and not so detailed, realization of the 'what is fitness?' question a few weeks ago:
Since successful reproduction is all that really matters on a neo-Darwinian view of things, how can anything but successful reproduction ever be realistically ‘selected’ for? Any other function besides reproduction, such as sight, hearing, thinking, etc.., would be highly superfluous to the primary criteria of successfully reproducing, and should, on a Darwinian view, be discarded as so much excess baggage since it would slow down successful reproduction. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/logical-inconsistency-of-darwinism/#comment-448416 In a Tadpole's Eye: Another Case of Darwinism's Plasticity Problem - David Klinghoffer - March 1, 2013 Excerpt: Organisms of all sorts are capable of intelligent, goal-directed, adaptive behavior that cannot possibly be accounted for on the basis of the theory of natural selection. *Never in the evolutionary history of human beings was there selection for "seeing" with the tongue. *Never in the evolutionary history of fruit flies was there selection for adaptation to an inverted visual field. *Never in the evolutionary history of ferrets was there selection for the brain reorganization necessary to see with the auditory cortex. *And never in the evolutionary history of the slime mold was there selection for solving mazes. Of course, the Darwinist will say that there is no need to posit past selection for plasticity. Instead, we will be invited to view plasticity as a "spandrel" -- an accidental side effect of other abilities that were selected for. But that would be entirely ad hoc. There is absolutely no evidence to support such a claim. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/03/in_a_tadpoles_e069691.html
bornagain77
March 25, 2013
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Something I have trouble understanding comes from the precision of the end result. i.e. nature seems to solved a large number of "fitness" problems with what appears to be optimal (or at least near optimal) solutions. Take for instance the impressive mimicry of many animals, the amazing chromatic filters in the eyes of kingfishers, feather structure etc... Path-finding was mentioned, and having a programming background I have written such algorithms myself and they are, in my view, a poor representation of how evolution works even with natural selection acting upon it. In order to achieve the best solution, the route has to be able to back-track (undo mistakes if you like) something current models of evolution seem not to allow. This is because if one move towards the optimal target leads to a fitness increase that does NOT fall in line with the optimal solution then you will never reach it, a new optimal has been defined with a new limiting factor that is imposed by the last fitness increase. Not all changes might make the perfect solution impossible but some will, and if these have a fitness gain in their own right (or potentially even a neutral effect) then the optimal solution may have been changed forever! I am interested in the maths around this dilemma. So much in the natural world has found it's solutions, many indeed that we would struggle to improve upon. So my point is I suppose why do I not see more people questioning the fact that millions upon millions of changes/adaptations so frequently add up to optimal solutions. When logic suggests the more simple and basic solutions are the more likely found. I would not be surprised if simulations of a more realistic fitness model (where some changes can rule out others - potentially even permanently) you rarely achieve the optimal solution for a set of conditions, especially if optimal solutions are complex ones involving more than a couple of mutations (slight sarcasm as I was thinking some will require a vast amount of coding for). b Unrelated but was pointed at this today and thought it might be interesting: Phylogenetic patterns of emergence of new genes support a model of frequent de novo evolution Sorry if none of that makes any sense to anyone, am pretty groggy at the mo. Hi to all, I just wanted to quickly add that I appreciate the contributors to blogs such as this by both writers and the comment box folk.bw
March 25, 2013
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Phinehas ask how evolution can get from point A to point B. I think I can best respond with an analogy. Suppose that I want a vacation trip to the mountains. I go to a travel agent, and ask for advice... I skip the travel agent... I decide to just drive... I see a mountain route... I stop in... I continue...
Yup. Now there's a real skeptic.Upright BiPed
March 25, 2013
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Your analogy fails at many levels and does not shed the slightest light on the Darwinian account.
That's being generousbutifnot
March 25, 2013
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Would it not be stunning that 'evolution' theory as developed by countless scientists over decades, the mechanisms, its operation - are essentially correct but headed in the complete opposite direction!? It certainly is. Error, degradation, information loss are the reality.butifnot
March 25, 2013
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Neil @ 4: Your analogy fails at many levels and does not shed the slightest light on the Darwinian account. I may come back to this later in detail, but I want to focus on this comment: “It is simplicity, rather than complexity, that is an indicator of design.” This comment is just astonishing. So the international space station is simple? Your statement is exactly opposite of the facts. It is not simplicity that indicates design. On the other hand, “complexity” standing alone also does not indicate design. High complexity combined with a specification indicates design.Barry Arrington
March 25, 2013
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And here I thought travel agents were so 20th century. Methinks Neil's adventure wasn't as blind and mindless as he wants us to think...Joe
March 25, 2013
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First a comment about rules of engagement. My rate of posting to this thread might be slow. I have other things that I do in life, and right now the IRS thinks that filing a tax return is of some importance. I won't be responding to everyone who comments. But I will try to discuss the gist of what is in the OP (opening post), though not all in one comment. I'll note that I don't much like the title. Phinehas ask how evolution can get from point A to point B. I think I can best respond with an analogy. Suppose that I want a vacation trip to the mountains. I go to a travel agent, and ask for advice. The travel agent asks me the destination. I have heard of Denver, so maybe I name that as the destination. And the travel agent then draws up plans. That's a kind of intelligent design at work, and Denver is the point B that Phinehas is asking about. However, maybe I skip the travel agent. Instead, I decide to just drive to the mountains and follow my whims as I go. I see a mountain route that looks interesting, so I head there. Part way there, I see a quaint inn with a vacancy sign, so I stop in and make arrangements to stay there for the night. Having arranged where to sleep, I continue following that mountain route, and maybe I stop to take photographs as I go. I follow a similar procedure for several days. And I take pictures and make notes as I go. With a little luck, I will have a great vacation. And, when I get back home, I'll describe it to my friends. They are probably going to ask me what travel agent designed the vacation, and how I came up with the particular ideas on where I was going. That's the appearance of design. But, in fact, the vacation just evolved as I went along. There was no specific destination, no point B, no plan. It will just look as if there was a destination in an after-the-fact report. Of course, there's a risk that things will go awry, and I will have an unpleasant vacation. In that case, my friends probably won't hear about. That's natural selection at work. Only the good results finish up in the report. A comment on complexity. My vacation trip was probably quite complex. In fact, it was probably a lot more complex than anything that a travel agent would have designed. It is simplicity, rather than complexity, that is an indicator of design. If I had taken my vacation in the Sahara desert, it probably would not have been very complex. But in the Rockies, it would be a lot more complex. The complexity reflects the nature of the world. For evolution, complexity appears to increase. But that's because the world is becoming more complex due to all of those other evolving creatures. There is nothing about the principles of evolution that require increasing complexity, apart from what is the result of an increasingly complex world. That's it for this post. Phinehas asked a lot of questions related to natural selection. I have not said much about NS. That's because I am not a big fan of Darwinism. I'm inclined to think that NS is overrated. I would like to see more research emphasis on mutation and recombinant DNA.Neil Rickert
March 25, 2013
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SLT: The precise meaning of ‘fitness’ has yet to be settled, in spite of the fact — or perhaps because of the fact — that the term is so central to evolutionary thought” (Beatty 1992). This is, if anything, even more emphatically true today. The concept remains troubled, as it has been from the very beginning, with little agreement on how to make it a workable part of evolutionary theory. Indeed, the “consensus view,” as Roberta Millstein and Robert Skipper, Jr., write in The Cambridge Companion to the Philosophy of Biology (2007), is that “biologists and philosophers have yet to provide an adequate interpretation of fitness.” And Lewontin, together with University of Missouri philosopher André Ariew, expressed the conviction that “no concept in evolutionary biology has been more confusing” than that of fitness (Ariew and Lewontin 2004). Yet the neo-Darwinian theory of natural selection hinges, “as empirical science,” upon a reasonable understanding of what fitness means (Bouchard and Rosenberg 2004).Box
March 25, 2013
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Surely evolution is a story about the rise of more and more complex organisms.
Nope, that just happened to happen here on this planet. Evolution can make things less complex too. Whatever works. That is the whole thing- stuff happens and what doesn't die may get the chance to reproduce. Reproduction is just "Rinse and repeat".Joe
March 25, 2013
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That is a fantastic question, indeed. I am curious to see what the responses are to it.OldArmy94
March 25, 2013
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