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Why Up When Down is Just As Good And A Lot Easier?

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Phinehas asks Neil Rickert a fascinating question about the supposed direction of evolution.  Neil says he will address it in a separate thread, and I started this one for that purpose.  The rest of the post is Phenehas’ question to Neil:

@Neil I also appreciate the professional tone. I am a skeptic regarding what evolution can actually accomplish. In keeping with your demonstrated patience, I’d be grateful if you would give serious consideration to something that keeps tripping me up. I’ve often thought of natural selection as the heuristic to random mutations’ exhaustive search.

A path-finding algorithm can be aided in finding a path from point A to point B by using distance to B as a heuristic to narrow the search space. Without a heuristic, you are left to blind chance. It is said that evolution has no purpose or goal, so there is no point B. It is also claimed that evolution isn’t simply the result of blind chance, so a heuristic would seem to be required. Somehow, natural selection is supposed to address both of these concerns. Nature selects for fitness, we are told, so somehow we have a heuristic even without a point B.

But what is fitness? How does it work as a heuristic? How is it defined? Evidently, it is all about reproductive success. But how does one measure reproductive success? This is where things get fuzzy for me. Surely evolution is a story about the rise of more and more complex organisms. Isn’t this how the tree of life is laid out? Surely it is the complexity of highly developed organisms that evolution seeks to explain. Surely Mt. Improbable has man near its peak and bacteria near its base. But by what metric is man more successful at reproducing than bacteria? If I am a sponge somewhere between the two extremes, how is a step toward bacteria any less of a point B for me than a step toward man? Why should the fitness heuristic prefer a step upward in complexity toward man in any way whatsoever over a step downward in complexity toward bacteria?

It seems that, under the more obvious metrics for calculating reproductive success, bacteria are hard to beat. Even more, a rise in complexity, if anything, would appear to lead to less reproductive success and not more. So how can natural selection be any sort of heuristic for helping us climb Mt Improbable’s complexity when every simpler organism at the base of the mountain is at least as fit in passing on its genes as the more complex organisms near it’s peak? And without this heuristic, how are we not back to a blind, exhaustive search?

Comments
William, Biological fitness is indeed an after-the-fact assessment and shouldn't be confused with physical fitness. One can be very physically fit and have nothing wrt biological fitness.Joe
March 27, 2013
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WJM @74: You have hit the nail on the head. "Fitness" is an after-the-fact label applied to the results of a process which, in most cases, we don't understand or at least don't have full details of. Most people don't like to talk about it, even critics of evolutionary theory, but when we peel away the layers we find that in most discussions of survival of the fittest we are dealing with a tautology. A decade ago I addressed this issue on my (now defunct) website: http://web.archive.org/web/20090322022700/http://www.evolutiondebate.info/A%20Good%20Tautology%20is%20Hard%20to%20Avoid.htmEric Anderson
March 27, 2013
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So, according to Mr. Rickert, "fitness" is a post-hoc description that means nothing more than "how many offspring happened to survive". Fitness, then, isn't a quality of the organism lineage/species (as "survival of the fittest" would imply), but rather an accounting term that only compares relative survival rates. Indeed, since "fitness" only means "survival rate", "survival of the fittest" simply means "survival of those with the highest survival rate." Now THERE'S a significant scientific principle if I ever heard one.William J Murray
March 27, 2013
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PS: I should also add that the tendency to dismiss what one does not wish to hear, as having "no evidence," is all too common, and that to often it reveals a want of attending to duties of care to the actual evidence, to fairness and to the requirement that every tub must in the end stand on its own bottom. In some cases it is a case of speaking wantonly without regard to truth, and in the hope of profiting from what is said being taken as true. Such behaviour is in fact a species of being irresponsible and outright deceitful.kairosfocus
March 27, 2013
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Petrushka: Do you understand the infinite regress implied in:
Skepticism is reluctance to believe without evidence.
I suggest you try here on for a start on warrant for cases in the context of the underlying worldviews. In a nutshell, to accept A one demands warrant B, but why accept B, leads to C, D . . . So to infinite regress, or to circularity, or else to a context of warrant on comparative difficulties across live worldview options. Where also, we cannot but have a view of basic reality as a framework for science, history, issues, etc. In addition, the issue of the self referential absurdity of radical skepticism, and the extension to selective hyperskepticism -- being overly dismissive of what you don't want to accept while being by direct implication overly credulous about what you want to accept -- will repay reflection. I would suggest instead of the undue and ill-advised glorification of "skepticism," that to be critically aware, accepting that worldviews should rest on more or less reasonable faith that stands on first plausibles that stand comparative difficulties analysis on factual adequacy, coherence and explanatory power and elegance, and to see also that as a finite, fallible, morally struggling/fallen, too often ill willed thinker, we will make errors, is a better overall balance. In that context, warrant should be consistent in standard relative to what the cases allow. KFkairosfocus
March 27, 2013
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petrushka:
Skepticism is reluctance to believe without evidence.
And that is why you ain't a skeptic. You accept unguided evolution and it doesn't have any eb=videntiary support.Joe
March 27, 2013
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Richie cupcake Hughes sez:
This is established science.
Your position doesn't have anything to do with science.
So unfortunately you wont get to make up your own acronyms and pretend you can measure without providing any….numbers.
Unfortunately for YOU. YOU cannot provide any numbers. Your position doesn't have anything to measure with.Joe
March 27, 2013
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Alan Fox:
The process of environmental design that resulted in insect pollination of flowering plants is, I think, entirely passive from the perspective of the plant and, I would argue, from the insect too.
Can you plrease reference this alleged process of environmental design? Or could you at least admit that you just made it up and it has no basis in reality?Joe
March 27, 2013
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So do you notice that there is an apparent and implied correlation between fitness and complexity with regard to evolutionary theory and the presumed Darwinian progression from simple to complex life forms?
It follows from how niches are available and get filled. Prokaryotes are enormously successful in terms of biomass, filling all the niches that are available to them. Exploitation of novel niches may indeed involve additions to (shall we say) the original design. It is just not a prerequisite, nor is it inevitable. (I'm tempted to add, otherwise, why are there still bacteria, but I'll resist!)Alan Fox
March 27, 2013
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Hi Neil This is the bit that doesn't gel with me:
I see the population as exploring the environment
In discussions on evolution, the plant kingdom is often overlooked. Yet the power of selection as demonstrated by plant husbandry (the humble cabbage, diversity personified!)for example. The process of environmental design that resulted in insect pollination of flowering plants is, I think, entirely passive from the perspective of the plant and, I would argue, from the insect too. Perhaps the culmination of environmental design in flowering plants where insect pollination happens is the symbiosis that links the fig to its fig wasp such that neither species can survive without the other.Alan Fox
March 27, 2013
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Alan @49,
"The theory of evolution posits common decent from a universal ancestor (LUCA)and proposes variation and selection as the mechanism of change. So Dawkins’ analogy covers the various paths from LUCA to any existent orextinct descendant, depending on what lineage is being considered. Homo sapiens is only one of many of the myriad species that are the end result of evolution. Each species sits on its own peak."
And at the top of most peaks are species that are significantly more complex than single-celled organisms, suggesting a correlation of fitness with complexity, which was the point of the OP:
"Surely evolution is a story about the rise of more and more complex organisms. Isn’t this how the tree of life is laid out? Surely it is the complexity of highly developed organisms that evolution seeks to explain. Surely Mt. Improbable has man near its peak and bacteria near its base. But by what metric is man more successful at reproducing than bacteria? If I am a sponge somewhere between the two extremes, how is a step toward bacteria any less of a point B for me than a step toward man? Why should the fitness heuristic prefer a step upward in complexity toward man in any way whatsoever over a step downward in complexity toward bacteria? It seems that, under the more obvious metrics for calculating reproductive success, bacteria are hard to beat. Even more, a rise in complexity, if anything, would appear to lead to less reproductive success and not more. So how can natural selection be any sort of heuristic for helping us climb Mt Improbable’s complexity when every simpler organism at the base of the mountain is at least as fit in passing on its genes as the more complex organisms near it’s peak? And without this heuristic, how are we not back to a blind, exhaustive search?"
So do you notice that there is an apparent and implied correlation between fitness and complexity with regard to evolutionary theory and the presumed Darwinian progression from simple to complex life forms? Do you understand that the questions being posed essentially ask how fitness entails complexity in most environmental conditions, and how that can be the case with a definition of fitness that equates with reproductive success?Chance Ratcliff
March 26, 2013
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Alan Fox:
There is no guided search (if evolution is true).
So there's an unguided search? Phinehas:
None of this really addresses my question, though it may suggest new ones. The main thing I still don’t get it how natural selection can save evolution from a blind/exhaustive search of the problem space.
1. Deny that evolution is an exhaustive search. 2. Deny that evolution is a blind search. 3. Deny that evolution is any sort of search at all. 4. Develop an evolutionary search algorithm and implement it in a computer simulation to demonstrate that evolution must be a fact. 5. Ignore the cognitive dissonance.Mung
March 26, 2013
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"There is no guided search (if evolution is true)."
Yes, "guided" is a loaded word, isn't it Alan, just as "selected" is. Substitute whatever word you like. Natural selection is a required component of evolutionary theory, and is supposed to provide a way for evolution to climb hills of fitness and complexity as opposed to descending them. That may not provide a target, but it's most certainly a direction. To say that NS guides variation is to state the obvious, unless you disagree with the quotes I provided in #59. If selection favors fitness, then it guides (constrains) the results of variation, just as gravity and the constraints of a landscape guide running water by meandering paths to lower elevations.Chance Ratcliff
March 26, 2013
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I'm back for today's posts in this thread. My analogy Several people have commented on the analogy that I used. No analogy is perfect. An analogy is used to illustrate a few points, and can be a useful tool. But I certainly don't claim that it proves anything. It's an illustration, not a demonstration. The point of my analogy was to distinguish between a plan and a random walk. It was also to illustrate that there is no search. If there were a pot of gold hidden somewhere in them thar hills, a random walk would be a terrible way of finding it, with little chance of success. However, as illustrated by the vacation analogy, there can be many possible alternative rewards (satisfactory vacations). So there isn't a search, but there is a good chance of a satisfactory outcome for many of the possible paths of a random walk. The critics of evolution often miss this point. The difficulties of communication In #50, Alan Fox says:
I don’t find Neil’s way of thinking about evolution compelling.
Alan then goes on to give his preferred view. The funny thing is that I agree with almost all of that, with the exception of the word "passive". Fitness I said that I would comment on fitness today. So here goes. If the next generation has the same size as the current generation, then the fitness is 1. Population wide, the fitness is the ratio of the next generation size to this one. We usually think of the population fitness as being made up of the fitness contributions of each member of the population. As a crude approximation, if a person has two children that survive to maturity, that would be a fitness of 1. The crude estimate for humans would be the number of childred that survive to maturity, divided by two (because it takes two biological parents). If you look at honey bees, where the queen has thousands of offspring, and the worker bees have none, then it gets a lot more complex. We can't say that the worker bees have zero fitness, because the queen's ability to reproduced depends on the workers. So the contribution of each bee to the next generation is a lot harder to estimate, and is not merely counting. If we come back to humans, it is really more complex there than the crude estimate suggests. School teachers and physicians might contribute to many of the next generation. And maybe grandparents contribute more than zero, also, so they do not lose all fitness when they age. So fitness is hard to actually measure. I'm not a biologist. I'm a mathematician. If I want to mathematically model evolution or population genetics, then fitness will be an important part of that model. It doesn't matter that it might be hard to actually measure. It shows up readily as an important variable in any mathematical modeling of population genetics. So, at least from my point of view, fitness is mainly important for its role in theory. The other important point about fitness, is that we have to be aware that it is relational. We should not talk about the fitness of an organism. Rather, we should talk about the fitness of an organism in a particular ecological niche. As the environmental conditions change, the fitness changes. Environmental change is one of the drivers of evolution. An example often given, is that of antibiotic resistant bacteria. If we were not using antibiotics, such bacteria might never have evolved. Some antibiotic resistant mutations might have cropped up, but it is unlikely that it would show up as other than the odd mutation. However, because we do use a lot of antibiotics, we have created an environment for bacteria where antibiotic resistance confers increased fitness. And that change in the environment is part of what drives the evolution of antibiotic resistant strains.Neil Rickert
March 26, 2013
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Nick, Have any textbooks on Macro-Evolutionary Theory been recently published? Or is Macro-Evolutionary Theory still a field that has no recognized standard texts? No results found for "Degree in Macro-Evolutionary Theory". Imagine that.Mung
March 26, 2013
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@ Phinehas I see Dr. Liddle has posted a much better reply to your questions here and Professor Felsenstein has added a comment. Please have a look.Alan Fox
March 26, 2013
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Natural selection is supposed to be the heuristic that guides the search.
Supposed by whom? There is no guided search (if evolution is true). By the way, I have no difficulty with someone who believes that life the universe and everything was the work of a supreme and loving God. What is today could have been wrought by such a being but maybe the Almighty choose to work within the properties of the universe he created. Maybe God, though omnipotent, can only bring about what he intends in his natural universe within the parameters of that universe. (I do have a problem when some extrapolate from this a set of authoritarian rules by which they they want others to abide - don't get me stated on Islam or the Roman Catholic Church - but that's probably off-topic. :) )Alan Fox
March 26, 2013
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The evolution of complexity:
"Under Darwin’s concept, variation is (nearly) completely random, whereas selection introduces order and creates complexity. In this respect, Darwin is diametrically opposed to Lamarck, whose worldview essentially banished chance." Koonin, Eugene V. (2011-06-23). The Logic of Chance: The Nature and Origin of Biological Evolution (FT Press Science) (Kindle Locations 207-209). Pearson Education (USA). Kindle Edition.
"Modern Synthesis shuns progress as an anthropomorphic concept but nevertheless maintains that evolution, in general, proceeds from simple to complex forms." Koonin, Eugene V. (2011-06-23). The Logic of Chance: The Nature and Origin of Biological Evolution (FT Press Science) (Kindle Locations 410-411). Pearson Education (USA). Kindle Edition.
The beneficial changes that are fixed by natural selection are infinitesimally small (in modern parlance, the evolutionarily relevant mutations are supposed to have infinitesimally small fitness effects), so evolution occurs via the gradual accumulation of these tiny modifications. Darwin insisted on strict gradualism as an essential staple of his theory: “Natural selection can act only by the preservation and accumulation of infinitesimally small inherited modifications, each profitable to the preserved being. ...If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down.” Koonin, Eugene V. (2011-06-23). The Logic of Chance: The Nature and Origin of Biological Evolution (FT Press Science) (Kindle Locations 412-417). Pearson Education (USA). Kindle Edition.
Evolution supposedly proceeds from simple to complex by gradual, undirected modifications which ultimately must introduce complexity by very slight increments. Natural selection is supposed to be the heuristic that guides the search. But NS doesn't account for complexity, only fitness, relative to the rest of the population. So the general correlation between fitness and complexity is pretty clear. Now just because we can say that different organisms, like bacteria, occupy different ecological niches, it does not dismiss the notion that for a large variety of available niches, complexity is the result of some measure of fitness; and such a progression, from simple to complex, is the espoused arrow of evolution.Chance Ratcliff
March 26, 2013
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Sure, but which of these dynamic and chaotic forces gives evolution its accuracy or heuristic such that it moves toward greater complexity in some manner that doesn’t require a random, blind, and exhaustive search of the problem space?
Evolution produces organisms that work as they are. If you could reproduce every intermediate from LUCA to Homo sapiens each of those organisms would have to function well enough to sustain itself and survive to reproduce. Each link in the line of organisms could only be a little different from its immediate antecedent and descendant. There is no prerequisite for an increase in complexity per se and modern cyanobacteria are still single-celle like their remote ancestors. Viruses are thought to have evolved as stripped down parasitic minimalists from more complex free-living ancestors. And "searches do not need to be "exhaustive". Current life in all its diversity only uses a tiny proportion of the theoretically available DNA sequences. For all we know, there are vast possibilities for functional life-forms still yet to be stumbled upon.Alan Fox
March 26, 2013
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Do you realize how good that makes me feel?
No and I have not the slightest curiosity. Even contemplating for a second what goes on in the brain of Joe Gallien gave me the collywobbles! :)Alan Fox
March 26, 2013
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Does that make a big difference in the questions I am asking?
Well, there seemed to be a misconception that there was some sort of goal in the mix, with humans as the ultimate target of a search. I don't personally think searching is a good analogy for reiterated "vary and test", which is how I think of the evolutionary process. Of course, I am a layman and no authority on the details of evolution. There are many people better informed and better qualified than me to answer questions on evolution and a wealth of literature available.Alan Fox
March 26, 2013
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Other Mouth sez:
But that’s what this is all about Joe.
It's about YOU. After all that post to YOU, in response to all your belligerent cowardice. So that is what it is all about. How Lizzie lets losers like you belligerently attack people at will and only intervene to save your cowardly butt from retaliation. Thank you for clearing that up mouthy...Joe
March 26, 2013
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You know what is really strange, Alan? Ten and a half months later you babies are still mumbling about it. Do you realize how good that makes me feel? :)Joe
March 26, 2013
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Alan Fox:
The theory of evolution posits common decent from a universal ancestor (LUCA)and proposes variation and selection as the mechanism of change.
Reference please. Seeing that this alleged theory allegedly doesn't say anything about the origin of life, it should be perfectly OK if there wasn't a LUCA as the OoL could have occurred many times, meaning many seeds to plant many trees. BTW passive isn't going to get the diversity of life from some prokaryotic-like population.Joe
March 26, 2013
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@Alan Fox
Organisms are subject to the pressure for change brought about by the niche environment that they find themselves in. And the environment is dynamic and ever-changing, involving many factors, not all easy to spot. Continental drift, island formation, meteor strike, volcanic eruption, climate, weather, predators, prey, parasites etc etc.
Sure, but which of these dynamic and chaotic forces gives evolution its accuracy or heuristic such that it moves toward greater complexity in some manner that doesn't require a random, blind, and exhaustive search of the problem space?Phinehas
March 26, 2013
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@Alan Fox So every organism sits atop its own Mt. Improbable with LUCA at its foot? Based on that, I suppose I am talking about the particular Mt. Improbable that has Homo sapiens at its peak and LUCA at its foot. Does that make a big difference in the questions I am asking?Phinehas
March 26, 2013
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My own way of looking at evolution, is in terms of a population. I see the population as exploring the environment (or the fitness landscape, as it is sometimes called). I see the production of mutations as part of this exploration.
I don't find Neil's way of thinking about evolution compelling. There is no active search for solutions. Living organisms just get on with their lives. Plant evolution is a better illustration of the passive nature of evolutionary processes. Organisms are subject to the pressure for change brought about by the niche environment that they find themselves in. And the environment is dynamic and ever-changing, involving many factors, not all easy to spot. Continental drift, island formation, meteor strike, volcanic eruption, climate, weather, predators, prey, parasites etc etc.Alan Fox
March 26, 2013
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So, what does Dawkins place at the peak of Mt. Improbable? And what is at its foot?
The theory of evolution posits common decent from a universal ancestor (LUCA)and proposes variation and selection as the mechanism of change. So Dawkins' analogy covers the various paths from LUCA to any existent orextinct descendant, depending on what lineage is being considered. Homo sapiens is only one of many of the myriad species that are the end result of evolution. Each species sits on its own peak.Alan Fox
March 26, 2013
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@JDH, Nice analogy! I could very well be a naive person. When you talked about condensation being distributed equally between the bowls, I immediately started thinking about some sort of plastic tent above the bowls that could catch the condensation which would then run down an angled fold to drop back into the top bowl. But then my skeptic clicked in and started thinking there's probably good reasons why that would never work. :)
How much less credible is the idea that the entire biosphere has been built up to the current level of complexity by some random oscillations about some equilibrium state.
This sums up the issue rather elegantly. I'm now going to mess up the elegance with another analogy. You know the visualization on many equalizers that outputs the amplitude of various frequencies as a song plays? Often, there is a little line that hangs around a moment at the peak of each frequency even after it has changed? It seems to me that that little line is about the best that natural selection can be seen to accomplish. It might allow a peak in the random oscillations to hang around for a bit, but I don't see how it can give any sort of direction that would allow random frequencies to climb ever higher without some additional designed element thrown into the mix.Phinehas
March 26, 2013
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@Alan Fox Interesting. So, what does Dawkins place at the peak of Mt. Improbable? And what is at its foot? If I should be talking about a Mt. Even More Improbable with man near its peak and bacteria near its foot in order to avoid confusion, I'm happy to do so.Phinehas
March 26, 2013
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