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WJM on Subjectivist Equivocations

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The following is from William J. Murray:

The problem inherent in arguments for subjective morality is often that those arguing for subjectivism employ terminology that is unavailable to their argument, such as X “is wrong” or “is immoral”. That phrasing obfuscates what the subjectivist must mean as opposed to what an objectivist means when they say the same thing.

Normally, especially in a debate like this, one would use terms and phrasings that distinguish between personal preference and an implied reference to an objective ruling/measurement. In regular conversation, there would be a situational understanding, like: “No, that’s the wrong color shoes to go with your outfit.” where the term “wrong” would be understood as a strong expression of personal aesthetics.
Usually, the line is drawn more distinctly: “It’s not the right choice for me, but it might be for you.” In a debate about morality, leaving off the qualifying terminology undermines the clarity of the argument and the capacity to recognize logical errors.
What does it mean when a supposed moral subjectivist says, “It’s wrong for others to do X”? Since “doing X” cannot actually in itself “be wrong” under moral subjectivism, in the sense that 2+2=25 is “wrong”, or in the sense that “red + blue = green” is wrong, it must be meant in either a personal or a perceived social sensibility manner, like, “Serving guacamole with halibut is so wrong” or “voting for Romney is wrong”.

When it comes to moral subjectivists, “it’s wrong to rape” or “it’s wrong to torture” cannot be anything more than statements of subjective personal or social-sensibility preference, even if they are very strongly felt and believed; the onus is on the individual to recognize that their preference is just that – a personal preference (even if writ large to a social sensibility).
The question for so-called moral subjectivists is: outside of morality and ethics, would you feel comfortable forcing others to adhere to your personal preferences or your social sensibilities? Are you comfortable forcing people to not serve guacamole with halibut, or forcing them to not vote for Romney?

Now, are you comfortable intervening and forcing someone to stop raping or toturing another person?
This is the line where the obfuscating phrasing cannot go beyond, and it is where supporters of moral subjectivism cast their gaze away from the obvious distinction; even the moral subjectivist agrees that forcing personal preferences or social sensibilities upon others is itself immoral. They will fight against such things as a negative social sensibility against various minorities and certainly against individuals forcing their personal preferences on others.

Hypocritically, though, that’s all that morality is in their worldview; they are guilty of doing the very thing they deem immoral in the first place; in fact, their entire moral mechanism of forcing others to abide their personal preferences or social sensibilities is one they see as immoral everywhere else. They would force a freedom from religion, as if forcing religion on others was in principle different. They would force others to treat minorities equally, but enslaving them is using the exact same in-principle rationale.
Moral subjectivists want there to be some kind of distinction between “morality” and other personal preferences and social sensibilities to purchase a rationale for imposing their views on others, and will refer to moral views as “really strong” feelings; but, no matter how strong those feelings are, unless they posit morality as something else in principle than subjective feelings or social sensibilities, their behavior is the in-principle equivalent of any other moral view.

But, they certainly do not behave that way; they behave (like any moral objectivist) as if they have some authority and obligation beyond what can be accounted for by personal preference and social sensibility, no matter how strong such feelings are. There is an operational boundary between what one is willing to do for what one recognizes as matters of subjective personal taste and social sensibility, and what one is willing to do in cases where an objective, necessary and self-evident boundary is being crossed.
No amount of equivocation can hide the difference in how one behaves when it comes to serious moral matters and matters of personal preference/social sensibility.

Here ends WJM’s comment.

WJM’s interlocutor at this time was a buffoon who styles himself “hrun0815.” Said buffoon responded to the comment as follows:

“Yes, yes, WJM. TL;DR about your whole diatribe.” I take it that “TL;DR” is internet shorthand for “too long; didn’t read.” If that is the case, hrun0815 has proven himself unworthy of being taken seriously on these pages, and I would encourage our readers and posters simply to ignore him.

Comments
Florabama @ 105 said: Now, if there is no transcendent standard of morality, when there is a disagreement – say like when a man thinks that rape is acceptable and a woman thinks it’s wrong — how do you decide who is wrong? De Sade said, “Might Makes right;” Machiavelli said, “Power makes right;” Hilter said, “Race makes right.” By your own words, none of them were wrong. They were only following their own inner standard of morality and since there is no other standard outside of “a person’s mind,” how do you condemn their actions? ------------------- I find it curious that right after I explain what the subjectivist's moral standard is, and you applaud me for getting that right, you ask me how I decide what is wrong with rape, and how I condemn the actions of various criminal individuals. I decide that these things are wrong by measuring them against my moral standard, of course. How can you not understand that? fGfaded_Glory
January 18, 2015
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It was precisely NOT an emotional appeal I was making, it was a plea for some logic on your part, to just consider the world that is around you, that's all, just look. What you are seeing is precisely what you would expect if there was no god.Graham2
January 18, 2015
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Graham Emotional appeals won't work. In your world nothing is wrong so what is the issue?Andre
January 17, 2015
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Andre: Do you actually see what is going on around you ? The world that is around you. Do you ever open your eyes ? Im pretty sure we don't agree on gay marriage (for example), so who is right ? You ? Me ? If there is an objective standard, then why don't we all just follow it ? Why are some US states in favour, some not ? cant you see what is going on around you ?Graham2
January 17, 2015
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The best you can do as a moral subjectivist when something happens to you is to accept that the other person's moral code is different than yours. You can't lay claim to it being unjust because if you do what are you comparing it to?Andre
January 17, 2015
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Them how can you say rape is wrong if its right in my moral code? You obviously still don't get it..Andre
January 17, 2015
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Andre: how can you judge other moral codes ... you cant. That is exactly the point. That is the whole point. You are getting there at last.Graham2
January 17, 2015
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Graham But how can rape be wrong if I'm using it as one of the means to spread my genes? Again does nature provide us with some right or wrong guide? The point is not about what is right or wrong. The point is if moral subjectivism is true then there really is no right or wrong because everything everyone does is right according to their own moral code. Therefore how can you judge other moral codes? Do you compare it to your own and if you do how do we know yours is right?Andre
January 17, 2015
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FLA: babble ? I have no idea what you are talking about. You are the one proposing an 'objective standard', then asking me if some act is wrong as per this standard. The answer is obviously not what I think, its what the standard says. That's the point of an 'objective' standard, but if we cant consult the standard, then whats the point of having one ? Its like having a lovely book of answers to everything, that just happens to be written in Voynich. I think that what you are asking me is simply: "Do I think its wrong?'. My answer is yes, I think rape is wrong, but you could also ask me about gay marriage, the proper length of a ladys skirt, or whatever, and my answer would be as varied as everyone elses. Some 'standard' eh?Graham2
January 17, 2015
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Mark Frank:
We are debating what moral words such as “wrong” mean.
Why? Mark Frank:
We are debating what moral words such as “wrong” mean.
And how did you conclude that "wrong" is a moral word?Mung
January 17, 2015
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Graham2@104, please avoid the psychobabble. Would it be wrong for a man to kill you and your children and rape your wife? Yes or no?Florabama
January 17, 2015
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faded Glory@92, you have it exactly right. There is no confusion at all. You said, "Moral subjectivism is the claim that each person possesses their own standard by which to judge morality. Moral subjectivism is not the absence of moral standards – on the contrary, it is the presence of as many standards as there are thinking people. Moral subjectivism simply holds that the standard against which to judge actions as good or bad exists only in a person’s mind, and nowhere else." EXACTLY! BINGO! THAT IS A HIT! You have it exactly right. Now, if there is no transcendent standard of morality, when there is a disagreement - say like when a man thinks that rape is acceptable and a woman thinks it's wrong -- how do you decide who is wrong? De Sade said, "Might Makes right;" Machiavelli said, "Power makes right;" Hilter said, "Race makes right." By your own words, none of them were wrong. They were only following their own inner standard of morality and since there is no other standard outside of "a person's mind," how do you condemn their actions?Florabama
January 17, 2015
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FL: If there was such a thing as an objective moral standard, then I would simply consult that standard to give you the answer. Since absolutely no one here (you & me included) is able to tell me whats on the menu, this is not possible, so my answer is: I don't know. If there is no absolute standard, then your question is meaningless. (there isn't & it is).Graham2
January 17, 2015
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Graham2@95 and Aurelio Smith@96, Graham2 was asked a question that he avoided in his response to me that would demonstrate "what on earth that means." Here is the question again. Graham2, or Aurelio Smith, if I came into your home and killed you and your children then raped your wife, would that be wrong in an objective sense?Florabama
January 17, 2015
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Aurelio Smith: People keep telling him that rules for social living generally adopt the idea that the individual has rights.
Those people keep missing the point. People should start telling him (WJM) on what basis rules are adopted. That would (finally!) address the point that WJM is making: which is - under moral subjectivism - there is no such basis available.Box
January 17, 2015
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AS said:
People keep telling him that rules for social living generally adopt the idea that the individual has rights.
That makes no difference to the argument whatsoever because the opposite to any such rule can be adopted with equal moral authority under moral subjectivism. Moral subjectivism as a philosophical framework accepts all moral views and principles that are subjectively held equally because there is no objective moral principle by which to weigh the differences. If one accepts individual rights and another dismisses the idea, they are equally valid moral views contained within the broad umbrella of moral subjectivism.
For example, in most current “civilised”societies, the right to life, the right not to be killed, robbed, raped, eaten etc is generally accepted. Secular societies have, for the most part, signed up to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Is WJM telling us this is meaningless?
I said that logically speaking, under moral subjectivism, there is no meaningful moral distinction between any two moral systems because their moral authority is ultimately derived from the subjective preferences of an individual or a group. It would be like trying to determine which is the better preference: a preference for vanilla, or a preference for chocolate? Blondes or brunettes? A cultural preference for sushi, or a cultural preference for hummus? They are just two different subjective preferences.William J Murray
January 17, 2015
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AS said:
I’m simply dismissing your assertion of some “objectivism” out of hand because it is evidence-free.
I haven't asserted that morality is objective in nature; I've used that position, and the position that morality is subjective in nature, as the premises of a logical argument detailing the logical ramifications, structurally and for behavior, of those premises and how they necessarily diverge. You've mistaken arguments based on assumed premises for an assertion of fact.William J Murray
January 17, 2015
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Seversky said:
No, what I am arguing is that you and I and everyone else is entitled to take action against anyone bent on doing harm to us and our interests. You allege that, from a subjectivist perspective, there can be no difference, in terms of moral authority, between the psychopath who derives pleasure from harming others and anyone who doesn’t.
Yes.
I say there are two differences. The first is that the psychopath intends harm to others, the rest of us don’t.
The moral authority to harm others or to act to prevent harm from coming to others is the same - subjective preference. Choosing "not harming others" rather than "harming others" doesn't give you any extra authority unless "not harming others" is considered an objectively valid moral principle - meaning, it necessarily applies to everyone whether they agree to it or not.
The second is that dangerous psychopaths are a tiny fraction of any large human population.
Choosing "majority" over "minority" adds no extra authority in a morality where moral authority is derived from subjective, personal preference.
Their need for the pleasure of harming others is vastly outweighed by the need of their potential victims not to be harmed.
That would only be true if "benefit of majority" or "not being harmed" were the principles that granted the moral authority available under moral subjectivism. However, since "benefit of the majority" and "not being harmed" are not considered universal, objective moral principles under moral subjectivism, those particular moral maxims carry no more intrinsic moral authority (under subjectivism) than their counterparts "benefit of the few" and "harming others". They are just two of the many available moral maxims an individual or a group may choose to adhere to. They have no extra moral authority than any other moral maxim authorized by subjectivism. Under moral subjectivism, there is no meaningful way to "weigh" one moral maxim against another; they are all equally valid.William J Murray
January 17, 2015
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Florabama @75: the evidence for objective morality is that everyone absolutely believes in it even as they reject it What on earth does that mean ?Graham2
January 17, 2015
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Kairosfocus I certainly agree that Darwinian theory and others are being used to arrive at conclusions that are way beyond what they can reliably predict. This you quoted in comment #88 is an excellent summary:
William Provine at the 1998 Darwin Day event at U Tenn, in one of the most clear statements:
Naturalistic evolution has clear consequences that Charles Darwin understood perfectly. 1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent . . . .
BioLogos argues that Evolutionary Creationism is all well and good for Christianity while Atheists (basically another sect of Evolutionary Creationism) argue the opposite. That results in one side trying to control the other even through federal court and political actions because intelligent behavior inherent controls things like a control freak, which is why it's so fascinatingly powerful and able to do both good and bad. For the sake of control humanity even has the free will and ability to incinerate all or part of the planet and its atmosphere with nuclear weapons, which for the sake of all other living things on this planet should not be made. Hopefully the culture shock caused by global travel and communication making it a small world after all will be over soon so that humanity can rid itself of doomsday devices. Until then we must ourselves all be careful not to underestimate our power and start a World War over ID related issues. Since I am another human who is understandably just as much a control freak as everyone else here I'm showing no mercy by going right for the jugular and "beating them that their own game" by controlling knowledge pertaining to how intelligence and what scientifically qualifies as "intelligent cause" works. I'm shutting off the source of the conflict using testable models and obligatory operational theory, which makes all the religious arguments that would otherwise be forever argued in circles made gone for good. Science makes it fair to do so. Only need a useful theory that adds new scientific knowledge to what was around before the ID debate that started in around 1999. At least in my case the new knowledge was enough to show me that a Creator worth having is already in science. The limits of Darwinian theory are this way made self-evident. Following the scientific evidence wherever it leads makes it so that there is plenty of science fun ahead while answering big-questions (science can indeed answer) that we will discover the answer to "when we get there". It's already clear that an "ultimate foundation for ethics" does exist, which took a Theory of Intelligent Design to make relatively obvious in our behavior at a place like UD with a mission that boils down to controlling knowledge too. What can be learned might be surprising like this but the search for our Creator/God/Allah/etc. keeps going on and on further and further into science.Gary S. Gaulin
January 17, 2015
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William J Murray @ 63
Seversky offers a great example of the problem of subjective morality @60; he blatantly states that he has the moral right to an act simply because of his wants:
No, what I am arguing is that you and I and everyone else is entitled to take action against anyone bent on doing harm to us and our interests. You allege that, from a subjectivist perspective, there can be no difference, in terms of moral authority, between the psychopath who derives pleasure from harming others and anyone who doesn't. I say there are two differences. The first is that the psychopath intends harm to others, the rest of us don't. The second is that dangerous psychopaths are a tiny fraction of any large human population. Their need for the pleasure of harming others is vastly outweighed by the need of their potential victims not to be harmed. Do you not agree?
It appears to be lost on him that justifying an act as moral because of one’s wants also justifies the behavior of those he is acting to stop. In the end, Seversky’s morality boils down to “because I want to” and “because I can”.
No, that is a misrepresentation of my position. I hold that moral guidance is most properly directed towards preserving the happiness, well-being and interests of all individuals in society. Where an individual acts in ways of which others might disapprove but which causes no harm to others, then society has no grounds for intervention. A psychopath, for example, might play out fantasies of rape and murder in a virtual reality environment like the "holodeck" in Star Trek without incurring any punitive response from society. When the same psychopath assaults other human beings is when society can and should take preventative and punitive action against him and is, in my view, fully justified in so doing. There is no need to appeal to some convenient fiction for some sort of ultimate but entirely unnecessary approval.Seversky
January 17, 2015
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There is a lot of confusion in this thread. The moral objectivists here constantly berate the subjectivists for not having a standard against which to judge the morality of actions, yet, they say, the subjectivists do judge others, ergo they are illogical and irrational (or lying about their subjectivism). This is nonsense. Moral subjectivism is the claim that each person possesses their own standard by which to judge morality. Moral subjectivism is not the absence of moral standards – on the contrary, it is the presence of as many standards as there are thinking people. Moral subjectivism simply holds that the standard against which to judge actions as good or bad exists only in a person’s mind, and nowhere else. Another confusion is the argument that moral subjectivists are not justified in disapproving actions that are abhorrent to them. It is claimed that a moral subjectivist should allow terrorists etc. to carry out their murderous actions, because under moral subjectivism each moral standard is equally valid. This is also nonsense. Moral subjectivism does not entail that everybody’s moral standard has to be equally acceptable. It merely claims that an objective moral standard external to individual minds does not exist. It does not follow that therefore all individual moral standards should be considered equally valid by the moral subjectivist. The subjectivist fully accepts the essence of morality, which after all is judging actions against one’s own moral standards and not against someone else’s. Moral subjectivists are fully justified in judging others against their own personal standards, regardless if these are the same as those held by others or not. Objectivists claim their moral standards to be more valid because they are supposedly the ones imposed by no-one less than the Creator of the Universe. Unfortunately for the objectivist, the truth of this claim cannot be objectively established and has to be taken on faith, which makes the objectivist’s position just as subjective as the subjectivist’s. The failure of the model of objective morality to explain what actually happens in the real world (and has happened there for thousands of years) except by declaring everybody who disagrees with it as irrational and/or lying should be a clear sign that this model is a very poor one indeed. fGfaded_Glory
January 17, 2015
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My comment #90 was the one in moderation. KF was right - it was the number of links. Whoever is moderating can remove anything moderation.Mark Frank
January 17, 2015
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SB #74
No. I am using the dictionary definition of the word, which you refuse to accept. Feel free to look it up. Words mean things. You are misusing words.
Good idea. If a dictionary will settle our argument then we can save a lot of effort. I am talking about moral language in general so it is hard to know which specific moral words to look up. “Good” and “bad” have hundreds of definitions so let’s take a word that is specifically moral: “evil”.  If I Google “define evil” I get: wicked, bad, wrong, immoral, sinful, foul, vile, dishonorable, corrupt, iniquitous, depraved, reprobate, villainous, nefarious, vicious, malicious; i.e a lot other moral language and thus no clarification as to whether moral language is objective or subjective. I am afraid the dictionary is not going to resolve our dispute. We are going to have to debate what these darn words mean (thought I will get bored with this quite soon).
You will not find the words “gut feeling” associated with the words “correct.” Incorrect means not correct. You are free to attach the words “gut feeling” to the words as an add on if you like, but you are not free (logically) to change the meaning of the word itself.
I said “right or wrong” not “correct”. “Correct” is more specific than right or wrong. It focuses on those contexts where “good” or “right” is in virtue of conforming to some standard (and it is still true that any standard may in itself be right or wrong). But right or wrong are broader than that. It makes perfect sense to say “I don’t think he is behaving correctly but I have a gut-feel it is a good thing”.
No, I am giving you the definition of a word, which you misuse for purposes of rhetorical strategy. A definition is not a cicular argument. It is impossible to carry on a rational discussion with someone who does not honor the meanings of words.
See above. If we are debating the meaning of a word then it is unsound to take as a premise that the word means what you believe it to mean.
Because justice demands that those who hurt others should pay a price.
I guess “justice demands” means “people ought to be punished when they do wrong”. So why do what justice demands? (My point being to prove you can go on asking “why” forever).
Your feelings about morality have nothing to do with justice, which of course, you do not believe in. It is impossible to believe in justice without believing in objective morality. I am sure that you can understand that.
I don’t understand that and I disagree – but let’s keep the discussion within bounds.
You have value and dignity as a person because of who and what you are, not because society thinks so, or because I think so, or because you think so. It is inherent. If, therefore, someone compromises something of value, as in the case of rape, justice demands payment.
Interesting example. Value rather clearly does arise because of what society thinks. If a jewel has a value of $200 that is because people are prepared to pay that much.
Law and morality are inextricably tied together. Society’s moral principles inform the civil law. But the laws, thus established, also influence people’s moral ideas.Accordingly, there is no escape from the question: Is it a just law or an unjust law? If it is a just law, people will be treated fairly; if it is an unjust law, they will not be treated fairly.
Agreed.
For you, there are no just laws or fair treatment. There are only laws that you like and laws that you don’t like. You don’t believe in the existence of justice and fairness, for the same reason that you don’t believe in the good, which sets the standard for justice and fairness.Justice means giving people what they are due, either in the form of a good, a reward, or bad-a punishment. It has nothing at all to do with your personal preferences or your subjective morality
That is debating equivalent of shouting “I am right you are wrong”. I don’t think you are interested in an analysis of what we mean when we use moral language. Which is a shame because without that it is not possible to make much progress.Mark Frank
January 17, 2015
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kairosfocus @ 62
Seversky, we do not DECIDE as to what is right or wrong, we recognise or acknowledge it. And, we can come to understand why it is wrong on a principled basis, if we are but willing: love does no harm, for one, if we recognise our worth and expect to be respected on core rights then we owe recognition of the same for others, if we would not be dealt with extremely we should recognise the same for those who are as we are, and the like of which no one is justifiably ignorant. KF PS: Note the implication of responsible freedom in saying we can decide, as opposed to being conditioned by nature and nurture, ultimately tracing to the non-rational.
The difference between us is that you believe in the existence of an objective morality, an objective right or wrong and I don't. My argument against an objective morality is twofold. The first is that if goodness were a physical property or force like, say, gravity or electro-magnetism, we would expect it to be manifest and observable regularly under suitable conditions. Just as if you or I or anyone else falls towards the ground under the influence of gravity if we jump off a chair, so we should see people drawn inexorably towards doing good under the right conditions. In my view, we do not observe this. Yes, we see some people doing what we call good but not, I would submit, with anything like the regularity we might expect if goodness were a property of objective reality. The second is that it looks very much like a case of trying to do an end-run round the is/ought fallacy. Goodness is essentially what is beneficial in some way to us, bad is what is detrimental or harmful to us. Morality subsists in enjoining people to do good towards others in society rather than harming them. Why? Because very few of us actually want ourselves or those we love to be harmed by others You are trying to redefine an 'ought', what is good for us into an objective property of the Universe when there is no reason to think it is except for human hubris. We can imagine some vast, alien super-intelligence that would look on us in much the same way as I might regard the microbes on my counter-top, if I could see them, something to be wiped away without a second thought. We might object strongly, just as my counter-top microbes might if they were able, but it would not matter to me any more than our obliteration would matter to the aliens and we have no reason to think that the Universe would not continue blithely on its way as if either we or the microbes had never existed. I say that we decide for ourselves what is moral because there is no one else around to do it for us. The moralities extolled by the world's faiths are, in some ways, a good thing. They can be viewed as the distillation of that society's thinking on such matters over hundreds our thousands of years. Where the mark is overstepped, however, is where one of those faiths attempts to claim a spurious authority for its own particular morality over all others by declaring it to be in some way a property of objective reality. What is immediately apparent in this case, for example, is that the objective morality being asserted is not Buddhist or Islamic or Hindu or Sikh but Protestant Christian. I can understand why Christians believe that but why should anyone else?Seversky
January 17, 2015
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GSG, I have simply cited one of many cases on the import of evolutionary materialism for ethics and more. Just for a second witness here is William Provine at the 1998 Darwin Day event at U Tenn, in one of the most clear statements:
Naturalistic evolution has clear consequences that Charles Darwin understood perfectly. 1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent . . . . The first 4 implications are so obvious to modern naturalistic evolutionists that I will spend little time defending them. Human free will, however, is another matter. Even evolutionists have trouble swallowing that implication. I will argue that humans are locally determined systems that make choices. They have, however, no free will . . .
And, here is Dawkins from River of Eden, 1986 was it, now in Sci Am '95:
Somewhere between windscreen wipers and tin openers on the one hand, and rocks and the universe on the other, lie living creatures. Living bodies and their organs are objects that, unlike rocks, seem to have purpose written all over them . . . . The true process that has endowed wings, eyes, beaks, nesting instincts and everything else about life with the strong illusion of purposeful design is now well understood. It is Darwinian natural selection . . . . The true utility function of life, that which is being maximized in the natural world, is DNA survival. But DNA is not floating free; it is locked up in living bodies, and it has to make the most of the levers of power at its disposal. Genetic sequences that find themselves in cheetah bodies maximize their survival by causing those bodies to kill gazelles. Sequences that find themselves in gazelle bodies increase their chance of survival by promoting opposite ends. But the same utility function-the survival of DNA-explains the “purpose” of both the cheetah [--> i.e. predator] and the gazelle [--> i.e. prey] . . . . In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won’t find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but pitiless indifference . . . . DNA neither cares nor knows. DNA just is. And we dance to its music. [[ “God’s Utility Function,” Sci. Am. Aug 1995, pp. 80 - 85.]
And nope, that's not a "religious" sentiment, it is philosophical analysis speaking. A world premised on matter, energy, space time and blind chance and or mechanical necessity inherently has no room for responsible freedom, thence no room for morality, OUGHT as opposed to IS. Here is Crick on that and on how alien it is to us in the 1994 Astonishing Hypothesis:
. . . that "You", your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behaviour of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules. As Lewis Carroll's Alice might have phrased: "You're nothing but a pack of neurons." This hypothesis is so alien to the ideas of most people today that it can truly be called astonishing.
I'd say, such is astonishing indeed, as it is self-referentially incoherent. Thus, one half falsifies the other and vice versa, causing collapse into necessary falsity. Evolutionary materialism is incoherent, irretrievably so, once it has to address mind and reason -- necessarily involving reasoned choice. KFkairosfocus
January 17, 2015
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MF, did you have a lot of links? Use odd words? Offend the Word Press gods some other way? (I doubt any active attention is being paid by the owner etc, but WP is sometimes odd.) KFkairosfocus
January 17, 2015
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SB #74
No. I am using the dictionary definition of the word, which you refuse to accept. Feel free to look it up. Words mean things. You are misusing words.
Good idea. If a dictionary will settle our argument then we can save a lot of effort. I am talking about moral language in general so it is hard to know which specific moral words to look up. “Good” and “bad” have hundreds of definitions so let’s take a word that is specifically moral: “evil”.  If I Google “define evil” I get:wicked, bad, wrong, immoral, sinful, foul, vile, dishonorable, corrupt, iniquitous, depraved, reprobate, villainous, nefarious, vicious, malicious;i.e a lot other moral language and thus no clarification as to whether moral language is objective or subjective. I am afraid the dictionary is not going to resolve our dispute. We are going to have to debate what these darn words mean (thought I will get bored with this quite soon).
You will not find the words “gut feeling” associated with the words “correct.” Incorrect means not correct. You are free to attach the words “gut feeling” to the words as an add on if you like, but you are not free (logically) to change the meaning of the word itself.
I said “right or wrong” not “correct”. “Correct” is more specific than right or wrong. It focuses on those contexts where “good” or “right” is in virtue of conforming to some standard (and it is still true that any standard may in itself be right or wrong). But right or wrong are broader than that. It makes perfect sense to say “I don’t think he is behaving correctly but I have a gut-feel it is a good thing”.
No, I am giving you the definition of a word, which you misuse for purposes of rhetorical strategy. A definition is not a cicular argument. It is impossible to carry on a rational discussion with someone who does not honor the meanings of words.
See above. If we are debating the meaning of a word then it is unsound to take as a premise that the word means what you believe it to mean.Mark Frank
January 17, 2015
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SB #74 (I will try repeating the comment - see if it still moderated)
No. I am using the dictionary definition of the word, which you refuse to accept. Feel free to look it up. Words mean things. You are misusing words.
Good idea. If a dictionary will settle our argument then we can save a lot of effort. I am talking about moral language in general so it is hard to know which specific moral words to look up. “Good” and “bad” have hundreds of definitions so let’s take a word that is specifically moral: “evil”.  If I Google “define evil” I get:wicked, bad, wrong, immoral, sinful, foul, vile, dishonorable, corrupt, iniquitous, depraved, reprobate, villainous, nefarious, vicious, malicious;i.e a lot other moral language and thus no clarification as to whether moral language is objective or subjective. I am afraid the dictionary is not going to resolve our dispute. We are going to have to debate what these darn words mean (thought I will get bored with this quite soon).
You will not find the words “gut feeling” associated with the words “correct.” Incorrect means not correct. You are free to attach the words “gut feeling” to the words as an add on if you like, but you are not free (logically) to change the meaning of the word itself.
I said “right or wrong” not “correct”. “Correct” is more specific than right or wrong. It focuses on those contexts where “good” or “right” is in virtue of conforming to some standard (and it is still true that any standard may in itself be right or wrong). But right or wrong are broader than that. It makes perfect sense to say “I don’t think he is behaving correctly but I have a gut-feel it is a good thing”.
No, I am giving you the definition of a word, which you misuse for purposes of rhetorical strategy. A definition is not a cicular argument. It is impossible to carry on a rational discussion with someone who does not honor the meanings of words.
See above. If we are debating the meaning of a word then it is unsound to take as a premise that the word means what you believe it to mean.
Because justice demands that those who hurt others should pay a price.
I guess “justice demands” means “people ought to be punished when they do wrong”. So why do what justice demands? (My point being to prove you can go on asking “why” forever).
Your feelings about morality have nothing to do with justice, which of course, you do not believe in. It is impossible to believe in justice without believing in objective morality. I am sure that you can understand that.
I don’t understand that and I disagree – but let’s keep the discussion within bounds.
You have value and dignity as a person because of who and what you are, not because society thinks so, or because I think so, or because you think so. It is inherent. If, therefore, someone compromises something of value, as in the case of rape, justice demands payment.
Interesting example. Value rather clearly does arise because of what society thinks. If a jewel has a value of $200 that is because people are prepared to pay that much.
Law and morality are inextricably tied together. Society’s moral principles inform the civil law. But the laws, thus established, also influence people’s moral ideas.Accordingly, there is no escape from the question: Is it a just law or an unjust law? If it is a just law, people will be treated fairly; if it is an unjust law, they will not be treated fairly.
Agreed.
For you, there are no just laws or fair treatment. There are only laws that you like and laws that you don’t like. You don’t believe in the existence of justice and fairness, for the same reason that you don’t believe in the good, which sets the standard for justice and fairness.Justice means giving people what they are due, either in the form of a good, a reward, or bad-a punishment. It has nothing at all to do with your personal preferences or your subjective morality
That is debating equivalent of shouting “I am right you are wrong”. I don’t think you are interested in an analysis of what we mean when we use moral language. Which is a shame because without that it is not possible to make much progress.Mark Frank
January 17, 2015
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The bolded sentence already proved to be an argument from ignorance (see comment 16):
We must think again especially about our so-called ‘ethical principles.’ The question is not whether biology—specifically, our evolution—is connected with ethics, but how. As evolutionists, we see that no justification of the traditional kind is possible. Morality, or more strictly our belief in morality, is merely an adaptation put in place to further our reproductive ends. Hence the basis of ethics does not lie in God’s will … In an important sense, ethics as we understand it is an illusion fobbed off on us by our genes to get us to cooperate. It is without external grounding… Ethics is illusory inasmuch as it persuades us that it has an objective reference. This is the crux of the biological position. Once it is grasped, everything falls into place. [Michael Ruse & E. O. Wilson, “The Evolution of Ethics,” Religion and the Natural Sciences: The Range of Engagement, , ed. J. E. Hutchingson, Orlando, Fl.:Harcourt and Brace, 1991.]
Religious arguments against it only helps to make it appear that the statement is true. The only thing that will defeat it is science pertaining to how intelligence of any kind works.Gary S. Gaulin
January 17, 2015
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