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WJM Throws Down the Gauntlet

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All that follows is WJM’s:

Modern physics has long ago disproved the idea that “matter” exists at all. Timothy’s position might as well be that because we all perceive the sun moving through the sky from east to west, it is a fact that it is the sun that is doing the moving.

Just because we perceive a world of what we call “matter” doesn’t change the fact that we know no such world actually exists regardless of what our perception tells us. What we call “matter” is a perceptual interpretation of something that is not, in any meaningful sense, “matter”. We know now (current science) that matter is, at its root, entirely “immaterial”, despite what our macro sensory perceptions have told us for millennia (like the sun moving through the sky).

Materialists are clinging to a pre-Victorian perspective of what it is we are perceiving, long since discarded after over a hundred years of experimental results.

Now we get to the so-called “material-immaterial interaction problem”. First, there is no “material world,” so it’s problematic to begin with a term that draws from an archaic, unscientific understanding of what it is we are perceiving.

Second, has the “material-material” interaction problem even been addressed, much less “solved”? We have absolutely no idea **how** “matter” interacts with other “matter”. We can describe the behavior of that interaction, then use a term to refer to that model as if that term was an actual “thing”, but describing the behavior is not explaining the **how** of the interaction.

When so-called dualism objectors can first explain matter/matter interaction, and when they can tell us what they mean by “material” and “immaterial”, they will then have a meaningful foundation to form a cogent objection to the idea of material/immaterial interaction.

Any materialist here up to that very basic task?

Comments
jdk, I’m finding it a little hard to think you’re being serious in 77, Mike. That's because you're operating in "common sense" mode. Which is the same mode that tells people the earth is flat. Do you really wanna get down and dirty with philosophy? If so, you're going to have to strip away the "common sense" philosopy (there is a "real world out there") or nobody who sees this for the B.S. that it is is going to take you seriously. You're choice. P.S I am an illusion. Your head is in a vat.mike1962
August 4, 2018
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re 77: I think just asserting that solipsism is a useless metaphysical position is sufficient: no one is really a solipsist. We all think that things like trees are "out there". I can't imagine how one would "back that up", logically, as logically solipsism is impregnable: there is no way to prove it is not true. But I, and virtually everyone in the world, wastes no time on seriously pondering whether the trees are really out there, or not. I'm finding it a little hard to think you're being serious in 77, Mike.jdk
August 4, 2018
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If I can’t prove that, then I not only cannot prove anything but there’s no reason to prove anything. Reasons? Too subjective and differ from person to person assuming other persons besides yourself exist. And useless when it comes to axioms. Hey, admins, can you please fix the editor timeout? Thanks.mike1962
August 4, 2018
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SA @75, I believe that if I can prove anything, I can prove that. Proofs rely on axioms. This is one thing that is not subject to proof but necessarily must be an axiom. If I can’t prove that, then I not only cannot prove anything but there’s no reason to prove anything. Reasons? Too subjective and differ from person to person. And useless when it comes to axioms. When I prove something, I refer to universally accepted concepts in the human experience, and not merely to a consensus view. But your "universals" are based on interpretation of sensory imput, which is the very question under review. You can't prove senses are reliable by appealing to senses.mike1962
August 4, 2018
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jdk @ 76, Meh, one man's uselessness is another man's usefulness. But seriously, your assertion is a bald assertion. Back it up.mike1962
August 4, 2018
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We assume that is true. Solipsism is sort of a useless metaphysical position.jdk
August 4, 2018
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mike1962
SA accepts without proof that the “consensual-reality” he believes is “out there” is something external to himself.
I believe that if I can prove anything, I can prove that. If I can't prove that, then I not only cannot prove anything but there's no reason to prove anything. When I prove something, I refer to universally accepted concepts in the human experience, and not merely to a consensus view. Otherwise, every proof I offer can be refuted by a non-consensus view. Just referring to a majority or popular view of something is not a proof of anything (except that is is popular). Popularity changes, obviously. A minority view can be "as correct" as a consensus view. For logic to work, we have to accept certain premises as universal truths.Silver Asiatic
August 4, 2018
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WJM
Surely you agree that all experiences – mental or consensual-physical – are 100% real **as experiences**?
Yes, as experiences. But not 100% real "as reality itself". In my view, "reality" is "Being" or "Existence". A thing that is 100% real is 100% reality, with no illusion, no contingency, nothing of temporary, fading, partial reality. In my view there is only one being 100% real - and that is God who gave being to creatures. God lacks no reality. All other things are "partially real". A thought has partial reality. But even as thoughts, a thought is not merely an experience. A thought has content that makes the experience "more or less real". "I thought I saw a tiger". The thought is real "as experience". Is the thought "real as a thought"? Fully as what a thought is? Well, the thought is either 100% "real" or an "illusion". We call it "real" no merely because it is an experience, but because it refers to an external source that we understand from sensation as real. I think another challenge for you, WJM - is there anything that is "not real"? If all things are "100% real" then the term "real" is useless and meaningless. But we use the term "real" to make distinctions. Otherwise, we would just eliminate the term. I believe that things possess various degrees of reality based on their qualities. These are understood universally in human observations and not merely as a consensus view. It has been the same through all of human history and is the same now. We understand certain universals and we refer to them. Things that exist outside of us are different than subjective imaginations and dreams. That difference alone is universally understood - no merely a consensus view.Silver Asiatic
August 4, 2018
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When I dream, unless I am having a "lucid dream", the dream world, including the other actors, seems to be equivalent to consensual-reality. Something is happening "out there" that I am not creating, but "merely experiencing." Yet if there really is a consensual-reality world, then my feeling that the dream world during the dream is consensual-reality is an illusion. (Assuming brains generate our dream world.) When I wake, I realize this. This goes to show that our assessment of what consensual-reality is, is subject to being deceived. How can we ever be confident that our "normal waking state" is not likewise fooled as well? The old brain-in-the-vat idea. The answer is: we can't. There is no way around this. SA accepts without proof that the "consensual-reality" he believes is "out there" is something external to himself. He believes "stuff happens out there" that he seems to not be creating and is not in control of. Those he takes as "real" in a way that SA's own internal thoughts and imaginations are not. I contend that the only meaning that "real" actually has here is that "real" means "things that I perceive that I do not seem to be creating, and that seem to be 'out there'". But this is the very same experience we have when we dream- the experience that most of us accept as delusional.mike1962
August 4, 2018
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SA, I ask you to consider the possibility that you are making a categorical error by using the term "real" as a synonym for "consensual-physical", when clearly they cannot be synonyms. I'm sure you consider illusions real **as illusions** - perceptual experiences that do not match up with what you experience as the consensual-physical. Illusions are not less real (superset of experiences); they just do not fall in the "consensual-reality" subset of experiences. Surely you agree that all experiences - mental or consensual-physical - are 100% real **as experiences**?William J Murray
August 4, 2018
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WJM
SA agreed that mental experiences are real **as** mental experiences.
Yes, they're real to that extent. There can be degrees of reality. Reality mixed with illusion. Thoughts are more than experiences. We measure the reality of the thought matching against a reference.Silver Asiatic
August 4, 2018
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juwilker said:
I think WJM is trying to say the same thing.
No, that's not what I'm trying to say. I think I've said pretty clearly my position - that all experiences are 100% real, and that branding only the experiences which fall into the consensual-physical as "real" is a categorization error. I think the discussion with SA helped clarify that point when SA agreed that mental experiences are real **as** mental experiences. Because two things are both 100% real doesn't mean they have equal value or usefulness in any situation or context. It's my view that delegitimizing mental experience as "not real" or "less real" cannot help but pave the road towards materialism and, ultimately, nihilism. I think thought is extremely important. Our view of our self, our identity, and what our experience "is" (including the consensual-physical experience) is ALL hammered out and arranged into rational order via mental experience. IMO, this makes mental experience a higher order of reality (whether we like it or not) than what we call the "consensual-physical", because it is the thing that is in charge of the entire model. Even in SA position, it is ultimately his mind that has decided where the consensual-physical category of experience resides on the reality scale.William J Murray
August 4, 2018
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SA, Thank you for that answer. I appreciate your thoughtful responses. The point of my question is that the dreamscape CAN (not normally) be as real as reality itself. I think WJM is trying to say the same thing. Most of the time the dream is not "real" and just an imaginary/thought world that all humans experience. But, thoughts/dreams/visions can periodically give us insight into another reality that we are not aware of. I'm sure this happens to people from time to time. jwjuwilker
August 2, 2018
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ju
SA, do you think Jacob actually heard “real” words from God and saw a “real” stairway angels etc in his dream?
I am a Christian believer and I believe nothing is more real than God. I believe angels are real and heaven is real. God is the ultimate reality - God gave life, being and reality to the universe, the world and human beings and angels - because God possesses all Being and Existence which He can give to creation. But at the same time, I know that people "hear voices in their head". I know people can hallucinate. Are these voices (just today a guy, Danuel Drayton admitted in the interview that he killed New York nurse because voices in his head told him), real? In Christianity, this is what is known as "discernment of spirits". Some voices and images that we get in our head are illusions - they are not real. These can come from evil sources or our own imagination. So, how did Jacob know that the ladder and angels was "real" (as I believe they were)? Well, Jacob had actual proof of this. Just a few chapters later (32:25) Jacob wrestled with someone who "touched the socket of Jacob’s hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled". So, there was physical, external proof. His hip was dislocated. When Jacob asked who it was, God identified Himself. So, now when writing the whole story of Jacob, the dream of the ladder has context. The same God who wrestled with him was the one who showed the angels. The ladder and angels and words of God were validated by actual wrestling and a broken hip joint. So, if a person does not know if the voice came from God - often God will prove it. And this is the point - God proves it by using some external reference, something only God can do. In this case, a mysterious presence comes and wrestles. So, if a person has a thought and does not know if it is God talking to Him or not, one way to validate if the thought is "real" is to seek some confirmation outside of himself. When God wants to show the reality of His words, it will be in some miraculous way, so the person will know that there's no way it could have been any other source except God.Silver Asiatic
August 2, 2018
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WJM Yes, I think we have agreement on most parts. I'll just disagree in two areas. First, the statement "all thoughts are equally real". I disagree here. As previously, thoughts have those two components: 1. The experience of a thought (that I had a thought of any kind). 2. The content or reference for the thought. To say "all experiences of having a thought are equally real" is true. We had a thought - it is the same as any thought. However, the concept of what a thought is, is not reduced to just "the experience of a thought". To talk about a thought in its totality, it must include "what the thought is about". So, it's not true that all thoughts are equally real since the nature of a thought is to refer to something. A thought that refers to a unicorn is a real experience of a thought. But thought is about something that is not real. The thought of a unicorn is not as real as the thought of what you did yesterday. You remember a reality versus thinking of an imaginary animal. Now, you may disagree that what happened yesterday itself is no more real than a unicorn. I believe you refer to the memory of yesterday as a consensus-thought. But I disagree on that. I believe yesterday is a universal concept. All human beings have always known what it is. If there is a failure to know it, we believe there is something wrong with the brain. It's not just a matter of a person having a non-consensus understanding of yesterday. So, there is an externally accessible, universally understood concept, outside of human beings - that we use to measure the reality of the content (not of the experience) of our thought. Otherwise, there is no good reason to prioritize consensus thoughts over non-consensus, and no way to judge the difference between illusion and reality.Silver Asiatic
August 2, 2018
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SA - I feel like we're making some progress here! I appreciate your participation. SA said:
I agree with that. But I’m making a distinction between the experience and the reference for that experience. In other words, the thought has reality as a thought. But the thought can refer to something that is not real."
The way I would express this is that whether or not the thought refers to things in the consensual-physical category of experience, the thought itself is a real thing in the category of personal mental experiences. This is where I think things start to get really interesting: the relationships between these two broad categories of experiences. Primarily of interest to me right now is: how should we characterize "experience" and "reality"? Since you seem to agree that all experiences are real, even if they are not all the same **kind** of experience as the physical-consensual, and do not all have the same kind of applications, the same kind of value (not degree of value, but kind), etc, it seems to me that we we could have grounds at least to conditionally agree that all experiences are, as I said, real. While you might be hesitant to agree with my view that they are "equally" real, I think in the above framework you can at least understand what I mean by that; "equally real" is not the same thing as having equal application, or being equally physical-consensual, or having the same kind (if not degree) of value as other experiences. Non-consensual experiences, I'm sure you will agree, can have tremendous impact only our physical lives. They can also have tremendous impact on the physical lives of other people. My reason for changing my perspective on non-consensual experiences is because I realized that my dismissive view of them as "not real" or "not as real" delegitimized and devalued those experiences and reduced their capacity to provide a positive impact in my life. IMO, the internal experiential world is every bit as important (if not more so) than what we call the consensual-experiential, for several reasons.William J Murray
August 2, 2018
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SA @ 54 You object to WJM saying "The principle that you are defending is that every human thought, imagination, dream, hallucination is equally real." Genesis 28:12-16: "He (Jacob) had a dream in which he saw a stairway resting on the earth, with its top reaching to heaven, and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it. 13 There above it stood the Lord, and he said: “I am the Lord, the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac. I will give you and your descendants the land on which you are lying. 14 Your descendants will be like the dust of the earth, and you will spread out to the west and to the east, to the north and to the south. All peoples on earth will be blessed through you and your offspring. 15 I am with you and will watch over you wherever you go, and I will bring you back to this land. I will not leave you until I have done what I have promised you.” 16 When Jacob awoke from his sleep, he thought, “Surely the Lord is in this place, and I was not aware of it.” SA, do you think Jacob actually heard "real" words from God and saw a "real" stairway angels etc in his dream?juwilker
August 1, 2018
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SA, that's a very clear distinction.jdk
July 31, 2018
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WJM
In my view, there is no such thing as a “non-real” experience. I think we can find some common ground between our views here.
I agree with that. But I'm making a distinction between the experience and the reference for that experience. In other words, the thought has reality as a thought. But the thought can refer to something that is not real. Just because we have a thought of something, does not mean that what we thought of actually exists. The thought exists as a thought. The experience is an experience. But it can refer to something real or something that is an illusion. That is how we determine if an experience is based on an illusion. Every thought is real - it happens. But what the thought is about may not be real. The experience of having the thought is a real experience. The thought actually happened. But it is a thought about a unicorn. The unicorn is not real. The thought is about an illusion. That's the way I see it anyway.Silver Asiatic
July 31, 2018
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SA, It might be that our disagreement is more semantic than perspective-oriented than anything fundamental. You say:
However, I think some distinctions are necessary also. I agree that all thoughts possess some aspect of reality. A thought is something that actually occurs. In my view, a thought does not have a material reality, but it is real nonetheless.
So, it seems we agree that non-material things are real, but we disagree on "how real". I would say that the experience of the thought of a rhino and the experience of a consensually-physical rhino are two different **kinds** of real experience. IOW, they are both 100 percent real, but one resides in the sub-category (of real things) called "consensual-physical experience" and the other in the sub-category of "non-consensual, non-physical experience). In my view, there is no such thing as a "non-real" experience. I think we can find some common ground between our views here. The categorization of characteristics and use of these experiences can be highly divergent, but I think it undermines the value, usefulness and potential positive impact of the one category to classify it as "not real" or "not as real", while insisting that the other category of experience is "more real".William J Murray
July 31, 2018
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WJM I want to offer some clarifications. I've been responding to your idea that all human thoughts are equally real. However, I think some distinctions are necessary also. I agree that all thoughts possess some aspect of reality. A thought is something that actually occurs. In my view, a thought does not have a material reality, but it is real nonetheless. Thoughts can be abstractions from what we know as objects we accessed through sensory data. The thought of a unicorn is real - the thought is. But the content of the thought is an abstraction of what we know from externally sensed data (of horses plus an animal with a horn like a rhino). So, in my view, we validate the truth or value of thoughts from empirical data (via what we sense). They do not have equal reality - although thoughts are real. If your belief was stated that "all human thoughts and experiences have some degree of reality", I would agree.Silver Asiatic
July 30, 2018
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WJM
Do you realize that by saying that reality = that which exists independent of our experience, you are admitting that you cannot ever experience reality?
Through information we gain from our senses, we experience something that we call "real", in distinction with thoughts that we have generated in fantasy.
Is logic real?
We abstract universal meanings from particular empirical data. My answer regarding your question on the math on 1+2=3 applies. In fact, mathematics requires logic beginning with the Law of Identity. That law requires that distinct objects actually exist external to the person. If we cannot draw a distinction between objects (which would be the case in a monist view - I believe it is your view), then there is no law of identity. There is no "1". Assigning a value to "1" would be arbitrary and easily falsifiable. Instead, in the realist view, "1" refers to a distinct, definable thing, unlike what is known in an imagination or dream. Just as with math (1+2=3), logic is a symbolic language that is reducible, ultimately, to universally accessible empirical reality. As a language or system of rules for structuring thought - yes, Logic is real, just as math is real.Silver Asiatic
July 30, 2018
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SA: I have a question for you: Is logic real?William J Murray
July 30, 2018
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SA said:
Imaginations do not have boundaries.
Of course they do. Can you imagine a 4-sided triangle? Can you imagine nothing?
To explain a bit further –
The fundamental problem with realism is that it is utterly impossible to prove that anything exists external to experience. Plato's cave. Your insistence that the realness of a thing lies in how it comports with an external, independent world cannot be anything more than pure faith, because we have no means by which to get outside of our own experience. Everything you experience is your experience - whether it is in the subset of experience you call "the physical world" or it is in the subset called "dreams" or the subset called "memory" or the subset called "imagination". For all you know, you are a brain in a vat having experiences. I believe even realists admit that the existence of an actual external world must be taken on faith because there is simply no way to prove it, no way to gather evidence that does not entirely rely upon our experience mental experience. For all you can prove, you are a brain in a vat having a delusional dream about a physical world and a difference between that physical world and things you imagine as an avatar in the dream. That's the problem with realism; it's a completely unprovable extrapolation of experience and an article of faith. Experientialism begins with something we know to be absolutely true: "I am having an experience." and places that known, absolute truth at the foundation of its perspective. Why claim "reality" is something other than and independent of what we experience? What does that buy anyone? Do you realize that by saying that reality = that which exists independent of our experience, you are admitting that you cannot ever experience reality? Hence, you argument about what real "means" is based on an admission that you do not experience reality. Unless you agree reality = experience, you have no fundamental basis to make any statements whatsoever about what the term "real" means, or which things are real and which are not. Because reality, if it exists independent of experience, is beyond the reach of your experience. All you can tell anyone is what your **experience** tells you about reality. Whether you say experience = reality or experience informs you **about** a reality beyond your experience of it, everything you say about "reality" is ultimately drawn from experience. It's perfectly within your right to dismiss large swathes of your experience as "not real"; it just seems absurd to me to insist that part of your experience is "not real" and yet everything you believe to be real is essentially cut from the same cloth - your experience.William J Murray
July 30, 2018
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WJM
I don’t really see much of a way forward ...
I don't either. I believe I made my points as clearly and logically as I could. I presented my arguments. It seems that your primary concern is with the definition of your terms. I am not using idiosyncratic definitions of common terms or understandings of terms like truth, real, imagination.
...you keep insisting “real” means what it means under your worldview...
Again, I don't believe my worldview is unique or unusual. It is quite ordinary to draw a distinction between an imagination and an empirically real thing. But I think we can agree that in order for me to understand your worldview, entirely new and different definitions of common terms and concepts are required. In my view, that creates problems. I would suggest and prefer that if your meaning of the terms "real" and "true" are different than the commonly understood meanings - then instead of using those same words, you should use different terms. In any case, I can't see any reason to continue at this point. But thank you for this exchange which I did find useful and informative, even though I disagree.Silver Asiatic
July 30, 2018
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My experience is informed and interpreted through realism & empiricism. So, you’re using my worldview to validate your own, which is radically different from mine. What you should do is use your own principles, not mine.
Actually, what I'm doing is attempting to understand your worldview and then using that worldview (as best I can) to try and shed light on what I mean when I use certain terms to describe my worldview - like the words "real" and "reality". Hence, the questions that were meant to show how there are false or untrue real things in my experience (and hopefully also in yours) - that just because a thing is real does not mean it is true.
The principle that you are defending is that every human thought, imagination, dream, hallucination is equally real.
Yes, but not equally true or useful in every situation. However, it appears to me that you are set on making everything about whether or not it corresponds to what we call the material world. In order to understand experientialism and thus rationally discuss it, IMO one must be willing to suspend their material or spiritual realism arguendo and understand how concepts and terminology are used under experientialism. That's what I'm trying to do here, but you keep insisting (apparently) on explaining why nothing I say applies to your worldview, and you apparently keep trying to tell me what I should mean when I use the terms I use. I don't really see much of a way forward when, from my perspective, you keep rejecting what I'm saying because (1)it doesn't agree with your current worldview, and (2) it doesn't fit what you think I **should** be saying, and what I should **mean** by what I say, from the perspective of your current worldview. You seem to be making no effort whatsoever to suspend your worldview arguendo to make a good faith attempt to even begin to understand experientialism on its own terms.
I think I’ve shown many logical consequences of that belief.
I don't think you even understand experientialist terminology because you keep insisting "real" means what it means under your worldview. You can't examine the internal logic of a worldview unless you understand the terms used at the root of the worldview, which I pointed out earlier - and we've only just begun that process with a single important world - "real". We can't even get beyond that single word. Under experientialism, real does not mean true. Until you can understand that perspective arguendo and stop examining and criticizing experientialism from the perspective that real must, in all cases, = true, all I think will happen here is you continuing to explain to me why experientialism doesn't comport with realism (shocker!) and continuing to tell me how I **should** be conducting my end of the discussion.William J Murray
July 30, 2018
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WJM
1+2=3 1+2=10 In your experience, 1. Are those two written equations equally real? 2. Are those two written equations equally true?
To explain a bit further - You cannot prove that 1 imaginary thing added to 2 imaginary things are 3 things. This is a violation of the law of identity. Because imaginations are not things. They are not externally accessible. They have no boundaries or distinctions. They do not have an empirical reality. They're not real. To add one thing to another - we have to prove that 1=1. To do this, we have to have real objects, with boundaries. Imaginations do not have boundaries. We create imaginary apples because we know of Real apples. We know the difference. If our imaginary apple is meant to be like a real one - then mathematics works. But that is because we know the difference between a real apple and an imaginary one. If we remove this distinction, as your idea does, then there is no externally real apple. Our imaginary apple is just as real. Thus, a "real apple" can be anything we want. It can have an infinite dimension and thus be impossible to circumscribe. It can be larger than the universe - thus making mathematics impossible.Silver Asiatic
July 30, 2018
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WJM
In your experience, 1. Are those two written equations equally real? 2. Are those two written equations equally true?
My experience is informed and interpreted through realism & empiricism. So, you're using my worldview to validate your own, which is radically different from mine. What you should do is use your own principles, not mine. You asked about two equations. Those equations have meaning because they are reducible to objects that exist external to my subjective view. Are both equations "equally real"? They are symbolic notations - yes, equally real. Are they equally true? Well, again, from a realist, empirical view - those mathematical symbols are reducible to realities that exist outside of me. Those realities are accessible to both of us - they are not consensus, but universal. So, I can prove that 1+2=3. I can define the symbols and then show through sensory knowledge that adding 2 objects to 1, gives a count of 3. That's the way my worldview works. In your view, however, 1+2 does not need to be reducible to real objects. I can imagine that 1+10 is true. Therefore, in your worldview (and that is what is questioned here) then 1+10 = 3. The principle that you are defending is that every human thought, imagination, dream, hallucination is equally real.
Here’s an interesting question: in your experience, is an imagined unicorn a real thing? I’m not asking you if an imagined unicorn is “the same as” a unicorn you could ride around in what we commonly call the physical world. I’m just asking if the imagined unicorn is real in terms of what **it** is
You are saying that an imagined unicorn is as a unicorn that I could see, touch or ride on. No, it is not. The imagined unicorn is not real. Its existence cannot be validated. The imagined unicorn is not a thing - it does not have an identity. To say that the imagined unicorn is "real" is to say that it exists. <blockquote.Also, you seem to think that I believe all “real” things have “equal value” in all contexts and in all applications. You seem to think this is a necessary result of their equal “realness”. Yes. If an imaginary rabbit that gives me things is "real" then this has the same truth-value as a real rabbit. Where did I get this money? I imagine that a rabbit gave it to me. Is that event true? Well, the event is "real" - it "really happened". To take that experience and match it against "consensus" to then add greater or lesser truth to the "reality" of my imaginary rabbit is to admit that the imagination is not equally real. Also, it is using some sort of popular vote to give weight. But the "consensus" view is formed by realist philosophy that has been part of the human experience since the dawn of history. Why refer to a consensus view that contradicts your own idea that all thoughts and imaginations are equally real? Clearly, the consensus is wrong since it believes that there is an external reality with higher truth value. To discover the truth about things we seek an existence in reality - by which we can observe via sensory data that a thing is true. To claim that your imaginations and fantasies are equally as real as events that have been witnessed by people is to make a truth-claim about your imaginations. Did the things you imagine "really happen"? According to you, Yes - they did. They are "real events" - just as real as any other human experience. Appealing to realist-empiricist views to support a different weight of value on various experiences is illogical and contradictory to your view. I admire your willingness to defend your idea. You have not backed away, although you seem to be equivocating now and using traditional realism to support your view. Your position is that fantasies and imaginations have equal reality as any human experience. I think I've shown many logical consequences of that belief.Silver Asiatic
July 30, 2018
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WJM @39: Let’s remember, it is matter that has been shown not to exist – not consciousness, experience or information. Even if you and I have very different experiences, and prioritize them differently, that doesn’t mean there aren’t principles that apply to consciousness and information, and how they are interpreted and experienced, that cannot serve as the foundation for rational discourse. ^^^ Thatmike1962
July 29, 2018
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SA said:
I believe that basis would be logically false since you would be assigning a greater truth-value to consensus-experience than to non-consensus or minority views. That contradicts your first premise that all experiences, consensual or not, are equally real.
I can understand your confusion about my perspective because it seems that in your experience (as you've outlined), the words "real" and "true" are virtually interchangeable. In my experience, they are two entirely different things. Also, you seem to think that I believe all "real" things have "equal value" in all contexts and in all applications. You seem to think this is a necessary result of their equal "realness". From a material-world perspective, all material things (hammers, cotton, cars, doodles, lint) are equally real, but do not have equal value in all contexts and applications. Here's an interesting question: in your experience, is an imagined unicorn a real thing? I'm not asking you if an imagined unicorn is "the same as" a unicorn you could ride around in what we commonly call the physical world. I'm just asking if the imagined unicorn is real in terms of what **it** is.William J Murray
July 29, 2018
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