43 Replies to “Would-be mass shooter idolized Columbine Darwin shooters

  1. 1
    bornagain77 says:

    LaDue’s Facebook page, identified in the KARE report, notes that he likes Stephen King novels, metal bands Machine Head and Deicide, as well as a TV show called “The Atheist Experience.” It also includes an image of numerous dictators

  2. 2
  3. 3
    VunderGuy says:

    Hey Bornagain… were the Columbine shooters REALLY darwinists who asked people if they believed in God and shot those who answered yes?

    Furthermore, if atheism is true, which is more true? Nihilism or Secular Humanism?

  4. 4
    bornagain77 says:

    VunderGuy, Barry Arrington, who runs this blog, was one of the attorneys on the Columbine case. He personally read the diaries of Dylan and Klebold, and personally examined other artifacts of the case, and has stated, on more than one occasion on this blog, that Dylan and Klebold were heavily influenced by Darwinian thinking. As to if those exact words were said to Cassie and Rachel “Do you believe in God’ I do not know for sure (who could be sure in such chaos?), but I do know it is entirely plausible given their state of mind and I do know that very similar words were said many times during the holocaust:

    When the Germans occupied my city, Lodz, they said all the Jews outside.
    “And out came a Jew from a beautiful jewellery store. He had a big white beard. A German soldier said to him, ‘Ah, you are a Jew?’ The man answered, ‘Yes.’
    “So the German shot him in the foot. I saw this. I was 16. Blood was running everywhere. And then the German asked him, ‘Where is your god?
    http://news.nationalpost.com/2.....not-death/

    Of related note:

    That Jew Died For You – video
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXmr_weg2ao
    That Jew Died For You | Why We Made The Film
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cq4b9qJlNbY

    Restoration Of Israel and Jerusalem In Prophecy – Chuck Missler – doing the math – video
    https://vimeo.com/92684712

    SETTING THE RECORD STRAIGHT
    Excerpt “In late years several cuneiform tablets have been discovered pertaining to the fall of Babylon which peg both Biblical and secular historic dates. The one tablet known as the “Nabunaid Chronicle” gives the date for the fall of Babylon which specialists have ascertained as being October 12-13, 539 B.C., Julian Calendar, or October 6-7, 539 B.C., according to our present Gregorian Calendar. This tablet also says that Cyrus made his triumphant entry into Babylon 16 days after its fall to his army. Thus his accession year commenced in October, 539 B.C. However, in another cuneiform tablet called “Strassmaier, Cyrus No. 11″ Cyrus’ first regnal year is mentioned and was determined to have begun March 17-18, 538 B.C., and to have concluded March 4-5, 537 B.C. It was in this first regnal year of Cyrus that he issued his decree to permit the Jews to return to Jerusalem to rebuild the temple. (Ezra 1:1) The decree may have been made in late 538 B.C. or before March 4-5, 537 B.C.
    In either case this would have given sufficient time for the large party of 49,897 Jews to organize their expedition and to make their long four-month journey from Babylon to Jerusalem to get there by September 29-30, 537 B.C., the first of the seventh Jewish month, to build their altar to Jehovah as recorded at Ezra 3:1-3. Inasmuch as September 29-30, 537 B.C., officially ends the seventy years of desolation as recorded at 2 Chronicles 36:20, 21, so the beginning of the desolation of the land must have officially begun to be counted after September 21-22, 607 B.C., the first of the seventh Jewish month in 607 B.C., which is the beginning point for the counting of the 2,520 years.”
    http://onlytruegod.org/jwstrs/537vs539.htm

    Is Modern Israel Fulfilling Prophecy? – Thomas Ice
    Excerpt: There are dozens of biblical passages that predict an end-time regathering of Israel back to her land.
    http://www.pre-trib.org/data/p.....ulfill.pdf

    How Darwin’s Theory Changed the World
    Rejection of Judeo-Christian values
    Excerpt: “The sanctity of human life became enshrined in classical liberal human rights ideology as ‘the right to life,’ which according to John Locke and the United States Declaration of Independence, was one of the supreme rights of every individual” (p. 75).
    Only in the late nineteenth and especially the early twentieth century did significant debate erupt over issues relating to the sanctity of human life, especially infanticide, euthanasia, abortion, and suicide. It was no mere coincidence that these contentious issues emerged at the same time that Darwinism was gaining in influence. Darwinism played an important role in this debate, for it altered many people’s conceptions of the importance and value of human life, as well as the significance of death” (ibid.).
    http://www.gnmagazine.org/issu.....-world.htm

    Verse and Music:

    Luke 21:24
    “They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.”

    Soon – Brooke Fraser
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8I3VO19i2w

  5. 5
    VunderGuy says:

    Thank you born again.

    However, what about the question I asked after the columbine one?

    Also, can I talk to you about a worry that I have?

  6. 6
    Graham2 says:

    BA77: They were heavily influenced by Darwinian thinking … Could you elaborate on that a bit ?

  7. 7
    bornagain77 says:

    Darwin at Columbine Redux
    October 8, 2009 – Barry Arrington

    Excerpt: “,,,this person believes this case is an aberation, and it is unfair to suggest a connection between Darwin’s theory and a school shooter’s self understanding as an instrument of natural selection. Not so.
    As the attorney for the families of six of the students killed at Columbine, I read through every single page of Eric Harris’ jounals; I listened to all of the audio tapes and watched the videotapes, including the infamous “basement tapes.” There cannot be the slightest doubt that Harris was a worshiper of Darwin and saw himself as acting on Darwinian principles. For example, he wrote: “YOU KNOW WHAT I LOVE??? Natural SELECTION! It’s the best thing that ever happened to the Earth. Getting rid of all the stupid and weak organisms . . . but it’s all natural! YES!”

    Elsewhere he wrote: “NATURAL SELECTION. Kill the retards.” I could multiply examples, but you get the picture.

    It was no coincidence that on the day of the shootings Harris wore a shirt with two words written on it: “Natural Selection.,,,”
    http://www.uncommondescent.com.....ine-redux/

  8. 8
    bornagain77 says:

    correction to post 4,,,, obviously the murderers were Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold with Harris playing the lead role.

  9. 9
    bornagain77 says:

    Vunder you ask:

    if atheism is true, which is more true? Nihilism or Secular Humanism?

    Not to be flippant, but I hold denialism to be the ‘more true’ for atheists.

  10. 10
    fossil says:

    From Bornagain #4:

    Excerpt: There are dozens of biblical passages that predict an end-time regathering of Israel back to her land.”

    I have heard that enthusiastic expectation for decades and every time I hear it I also remember what Paul said, “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise” (Gal 3:28-29 NKJV) which is according to Paul’s theology concerning the promises to Abraham (Rom 4). Besides that, Jesus made it quite clear that in cutting off the prophesied Messiah God was going to leave them to themselves (Mat 23:37-38) and raise up another group that would do the job that Israel was supposed to do (Matt 22:10; Mat 21:33-43).

    While scripture says those things Paul is very careful in speaking to the Gentiles that we don’t get too arrogant in our estimation of ourselves:

    And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? (Rom 11:17-24 NKJV)

    “And so all Israel will be saved” (Rom 11:26 NKJV).

  11. 11
    Graham2 says:

    BA77: So a nutjob gabbed a science quote he liked ? so what ? How many have killed with god on their lips ?

  12. 12
    bornagain77 says:

    Vunder you ask:

    “Also, can I talk to you about a worry that I have?”

    I don’t know if I’m qualified in the least bit to counsel anyone on anything important, save of course to counsel someone, everyone, on becoming a Christian. ,,, But perhaps this following personal story will help a little bit with your ‘worry’.

    Hebrews 4:12
    For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

    Strange But True
    It was in the summer of 1993, I was down and out in Ft. Myers, Florida. This was about the second year that I was homeless. I was staying at the Salvation Army in Ft. Myers working temporary day labor and paying 8 bucks a night to stay at the homeless shelter. Once again I had come up with yet another grand plan to defeat the destructive desires for drinking and using that had kept me broke and bound to the homeless street life. I was going to read the Bible cover to cover. Surely, this would cure me once and for all of my destructive desires. Every night before I would go to sleep I made sure that I would read though at least 30 minutes worth of the Bible. This was done in my bunk in the open dormitory of the salvation army. Well, after about a month or 6 weeks of reading in this fashion, I was getting pretty far into the Bible and had pretty much established myself, among the guys staying in the dorm with me, as some sort of Jesus Freak. One evening a man, who like me wasn’t fairing to well in this world, comes up to my bunk, as I was reading the Bible, and angrily says this to me, “Where Is God? Just Where Is God? If I knew where God was my life would be alright.” Calmly I told him the truth “Well I know that it may sound strange to you, but sometimes when I really need it, God seems to speak directly to me from the Bible, giving me guidance and comfort, and I believe that He may speak directly to you since you seem to be in a pretty bad spot.” Then I closed the Bible and handed it to him. Then he asks me “Do you mean like this?” and he just randomly flips the Bible open, but instead of gently reading the first words his eyes landed on, as I thought he would do, he went and stabbed his finger down onto the page that the Bible had fell open to. Then, he looks over to me and asks me “Like That?” I nervously said, in spite of my reservations of the brazenness of his act, “I guess that will work.”. Well his brazenness paid off for his finger landed right on top of Job 23:3 which says “Oh, that I knew where I might find God, that I might come to His seat!”, (In fact that entire passage in Job 23 was related to his situation), Well, needless to say, we both were in awe about God revealing Himself to him in the ‘Living Word’ that clearly, so we went to the chaplain of the Salvation Army and got him his very own Bible. Let me end this testimony by saying that I believe God speaks to all people in many different ways. Don’t be upset if God doesn’t speak in this certain way to you. He very well could be speaking to you in special ways that He doesn’t speak to other people in. He could speak through your dreams, or visions, or He could speak to you through other people. He could be in that still small, intuitive, voice that speaks warnings to you every so often, or T.V., or radio, or the clouds, or even a lightning bolt could express His feelings and guidance to you, or etc… etc…. Here are some examples of the different ways God speaks into different people’s lives (usually during times a person is coping with the death of a loved one):

    Good Morning America “GodWinks – When God let’s you know He’s thinking of you” – video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYJRddhzFG4

    (GodWinks) SQuire Rushnell & daughter of Emmett Kelly on FOX & FRIENDS 6/16/13
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....9xPfNtbrqw

    Dr. Janis Amatuzio author of FOREVER OURS – video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtnywJHLrLY

    The point I’m trying to make clear is this. I’m firmly convinced that God does indeed desire to speak to each and every one of us, His children! BUT, we have to open our minds up enough to allow the possibility that God, the Father of all creation, might actually care enough for each of us, His children, to actually want to speak intimately to each of us from time to time. Think about it. What parent doesn’t talk personally to each and every one of their very own children every once in a while? It would be a very uncaring parent who did not ‘get personal’ every once in a while with each and every one of their children. How much more is this to be expected of God who loved us so much that he suffered the penalty of death for us so that we could always be with Him forever?
    Moreover, I truly believe it is a very powerful thing to have the Lord speak into our lives, more powerful than we can possibly understand right now. My reasoning for this belief is very simple: “He who speaks living words into the voids of our life, Is the very same One who spoke living words into the void of the night”

    Isaiah 45:18-19
    For thus says the Lord, who created the heavens, who is God, who formed the earth and made it, who established it, who did not create it in vain, who formed it to be inhabited: “I am the Lord, and there is no other. I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth; I did not say to the seed of Jacob, ‘seek me in vain’; I, the Lord speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.”

    Supplemental notes:

    The Easter Question – Eben Alexander, M.D. – March 2013
    Excerpt: More than ever since my near death experience, I consider myself a Christian -,,,
    Now, I can tell you that if someone had asked me, in the days before my NDE, what I thought of this (Easter) story, I would have said that it was lovely. But it remained just that — a story. To say that the physical body of a man who had been brutally tortured and killed could simply get up and return to the world a few days later is to contradict every fact we know about the universe. It wasn’t simply an unscientific idea. It was a downright anti-scientific one.
    But it is an idea that I now believe. Not in a lip-service way. Not in a dress-up-it’s-Easter kind of way. I believe it with all my heart, and all my soul.,,
    We are, really and truly, made in God’s image. But most of the time we are sadly unaware of this fact. We are unconscious both of our intimate kinship with God, and of His constant presence with us. On the level of our everyday consciousness, this is a world of separation — one where people and objects move about, occasionally interacting with each other, but where essentially we are always alone.
    But this cold dead world of separate objects is an illusion. It’s not the world we actually live in.,,,
    ,,He (God) is right here with each of us right now, seeing what we see, suffering what we suffer… and hoping desperately that we will keep our hope and faith in Him. Because that hope and faith will be triumphant.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.....79741.html

    The Galileo Affair and “Life/Consciousness” as the true “Center of the Universe”
    Excerpt: I find it extremely interesting, and strange, that quantum mechanics tells us that instantaneous quantum wave collapse to its ‘uncertain’ 3D state is centered on each individual conscious observer in the universe, whereas, 4D space-time cosmology (General Relativity) tells us each 3D point in the universe is central to the expansion of the universe. These findings of modern science are pretty much exactly what we would expect to see if this universe were indeed created, and sustained, from a higher dimension by a omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, eternal Being who knows everything that is happening everywhere in the universe at the same time. These findings certainly seem to go to the very heart of the age old question asked of many parents by their children, “How can God hear everybody’s prayers at the same time?”,,, i.e. Why should the expansion of the universe, or the quantum wave collapse of the entire universe, even care that you or I, or anyone else, should exist? Only Theism, Christian Theism in particular, offers a rational explanation as to why you or I, or anyone else, should have such undeserved significance in such a vast universe. [15]

    Psalm 33:13-15
    The LORD looks from heaven; He sees all the sons of men. From the place of His dwelling He looks on all the inhabitants of the earth; He fashions their hearts individually; He considers all their works.
    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BHAcvrc913SgnPcDohwkPnN4kMJ9EDX-JJSkjc4AXmA/edit

    Verse, Music and poem:

    John 3:3-8
    Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the spirit.”

    Evanescence – Bring Me To Life
    https://vimeo.com/38692431

    Wake Me O Lord

    Wake me O Lord from this sleep of mine
    To the living wonders of creation that are so fine
    With a “Oh, that’s nice” I shall not content
    NO, only when You speak shall my heart be spent
    Others may suffice their cravings of Awe
    With an “Oh Well” shrug of the wonders they saw
    But I know You are in each piece of reality
    Yes, in the wind, the stars, and even the sea
    So this vow to You I make
    No rest in me my heart will take
    Till Your face and hands again I see
    In the many waters of reality
    For the truth be known to You indeed
    That if I see You not with my heart and head
    I’m not really born again, but instead am dead

  13. 13
    Mung says:

    Excerpt: There are dozens of biblical passages that predict an end-time regathering of Israel back to her land.

    No, there aren’t.

    Is Modern Israel Fulfilling Prophecy? – Thomas Ice

    No, it isn’t.

    These are the same people who claim that there are no signs that come before “the rapture.” That no prophecy comes before “the rapture.” Yet we’re supposed to believe that Israel is fulfilled prophecy. Hogwash.

  14. 14
    bornagain77 says:

    Israeli library uploads (Sir Isaac) Newton’s theological texts – February 15, 2012
    Excerpt: He’s considered to be one of the greatest scientists of all time.,, However, the curator of Israel’s national library’s humanities collection said Newton was also a devout Christian who dealt far more in theology than he did in physics,, “He (Sir Isaac Newton) took a great interest in the Jews, and we found no negative expressions toward Jews in his writing,” said Levy-Rubin. “He (years before it was remotely feasible) said the Jews would ultimately return to their land.”
    http://www.physorg.com/news/20.....gical.html

  15. 15
    bornagain77 says:

    SQuire Rushnell’s Godwink Story for Easter
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kCsnU8yjg8

  16. 16
    Dionisio says:

    Graham2 @ 11

    BA77: So a nutjob gabbed a science quote he liked ? so what ? How many have killed with god on their lips ?

    Those who crucified Christ in the first century had God on their lips.

    Saul of Tarsus, later known as Paul the apostle, had God on his lips when persecuted the Christians in the first century.

  17. 17
    VunderGuy says:

    @Graham 2

    The point born again is trying to make here, I think, is that there is egg on both institutions that both sides faces of the conversation adhere to, in theory anyways.

    In other words, if say an atheist were to point to, say, the crusades and all of the terrible stuff done there to try to denounce all religion and all people who at least say they adhere to a given religion or another, then by that logic, the atheist must also paint himself with that same broad brush considering all of the terrible things that atheists themselves have done as well, either trying to advance atheism like most Communistic regimes have tried to do or just bad things that don’t involve advancing atheism. The same could be said of the Christian and followers of other religions if they try to point out how many people supposed atheists have killed.

    In other words, all of this rhetoric flying back and forth about the death-tolls either side has been said to accrue as an attempt to invalidate either side is itself invalid and fallacious. If someone from either side is to try and invalidate the other side, they must meet certain other, more valid criteria.

    Though, sadly, considering born again’s comments, it’s probably just me saying this.

    Anyways, born again, the worry I’m having is that in a few days, I’ll be taking a Sci-Fi/Fantasy class (I am a writer in a writing school) and the teacher, from what I’ve heard, may decide to push the ol’ warfare hypothesis and other things that may be found trying for me and this may close my mind to some information that could be invaluable to me as a writer of either genre. What doesn’t help is that I have the view that Sci-Fi, for the most part, is just Fantasy with the label of ‘SCIENCE!’ attached to it to give it more credibility than it actually has and disguise that it’s mostly just as much FI as Fantasy, and less about actual, correct, Science.

    I was wondering what aid you could offer me to get me through such a trying time. Some words of encouragement perhaps? Some trusted site where I can refresh myself on the fundamentals of physics perhaps?

  18. 18
    Querius says:

    Thanks for sharing your story @12, Bornagain77. A lot of people, myself included, have experienced similar, astonishing, things through the living Word of God!

    VunderGuy, IMHO, the difference between most science fiction and most fantasy is the substitution of advanced technology in place of magic, aliens in place of mythical creatures and gods, and strange new worlds in place of strange old places.

    Novelty hooks people more than interesting personalities, personal development, discovery of purpose, conflict resolution, examples of integrity and failure, plot reversal, clever surprises, and so on.

    Genuine science (physics, QM, chemistry, biology, even extrapolations in social sciences), innovative technology, and clever mathematics that are applied to ordinary life is what science fiction should be about.

    My two cents . . .

    -Q

  19. 19
    Chalciss says:

    BA77:

    I believe God speaks to all people in many different ways. Don’t be upset if God doesn’t speak in this certain way to you. He very well could be speaking to you in special ways that He doesn’t speak to other people in. He could speak through your dreams, or visions, or He could speak to you through other people.

    So many of us can attest to this fact and say Amen & Amen to that. Fantastic posts by BA77, as usual! 🙂

  20. 20
    Dionisio says:

    Chalciss @ 19

    Agree. Rev. 22:21

  21. 21
    Dionisio says:

    Dionisio @ 16

    Matthew 7:21-23

  22. 22
    bornagain77 says:

    Thanks Guys, Vunder I think Querius gave an excellent response to your ‘worry’ at post 18.

    You also ask

    ,,,Some trusted site where I can refresh myself on the fundamentals of physics perhaps?

    Well in that regards, and I don’t know how helpful I may be, but it is interesting to note where fundamental physics is at right now and how man’s ‘sci-fi’ imagination has tried to cope with that advance.

    Advances in physics has now driven man’s understanding of reality to the point of realizing that reality is not ‘materialistic’ in its structure, as had long been presumed, but reality is instead ‘information theoretic’ in its structure. Of what I’ve read thus far, nothing conveys this shift in understanding in fundamental physics better than Wheeler’s following quote:

    “I think of my lifetime in physics as divided into three periods. In the first period, extending from the beginning of my career until the early 1950?s, I was in the grip of the idea that Everything Is Particles. I was looking for ways to build all basic entities – neutrons, protons, mesons, and so on – out of the lightest, most fundamental particles, electrons, and photons.
    I call my second period Everything Is Fields. From the time I fell in love with general relativity and gravitation in 1952 until late in my career, I pursued the vision of a world made of fields, one in which the apparent particles are really manifestations of electric and magnetic fields, gravitational fields, and space-time itself.
    Now I am in the grip of a new vision, that Everything Is Information. The more I have pondered the mystery of the quantum and our strange ability to comprehend this world in which we live, the more I see possible fundamental roles for logic and information as the bedrock of physical theory.”
    – J. A. Wheeler, K. Ford, Geons, Black Hole, & Quantum Foam: A Life in Physics New York W.W. Norton & Co, 1998, pp 63-64.

    The ‘sci-fi’ response to this new ‘information theoretic’ understanding in fundamental physics has been for some men to imagine that the universe is ‘merely’ a computer simulation:

    Is God No Better Than A Special Computer? – William Lane Craig – video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xinwkb_b4k4

    Scott Aaronson gives a bit of a ‘reality check’ to that ‘sci-fi’ line of thought here:

    Quantum Computing Promises New Insights, Not Just Supermachines – Scott Aaronson – December 2011
    Excerpt: And yet, even though useful quantum computers might still be decades away, many of their payoffs are already arriving. For example, the mere possibility of quantum computers has all but overthrown a conception of the universe that scientists like Stephen Wolfram have championed. That conception holds that, as in the “Matrix” movies, the universe itself is basically a giant computer, twiddling an array of 1’s and 0’s in essentially the same way any desktop PC does.
    Quantum computing has challenged that vision by showing that if “the universe is a computer,” then even at a hard-nosed theoretical level, it’s a vastly more powerful kind of computer than any yet constructed by humankind. Indeed, the only ways to evade that conclusion seem even crazier than quantum computing itself: One would have to overturn quantum mechanics, or else find a fast way to simulate quantum mechanics using today’s computers.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12.....ef=science

    While Aaronson’s rebuttal is good for a technical point it brings out, a more comprehensive rebuttal to the imaginary ‘sci-fi’ notion that the universe is merely a computer simulation is here:

    Digital Physics Argument for God’s Existence – video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2Xsp4FRgas

    Digital Physics Argument
    Premise 1: Simulations can only exist is a computer or a mind.
    Premise 2: The universe is a simulation.
    Premise 3: A simulation on a computer still must be simulated in a mind.
    Premise 4: Therefore, the universe is a simulation in a mind (2,3).
    Premise 5: This mind is what we call God.
    Conclusion: Therefore, God exists.

    Hope that helps a little Vunder:

    Verse and Music:

    Proverbs 21:30
    There is no wisdom, no insight, no plan that can succeed against the LORD.

  23. 23
    bornagain77 says:

    Do Something – Matthew West – music
    http://myktis.com/songs/do-something/

  24. 24
    bornagain77 says:

    The Cultural Impact of Darwinian Evolution – John West, PhD – video
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFh4whzh_NU

  25. 25
    Mung says:

    “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it.” – Jesus

  26. 26
    bornagain77 says:

    “For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery, lest you be wise in your own estimation, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and thus all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, ‘The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will remove ungodliness from Jacob,’”
    http://carm.org/questions-replacement-theology

  27. 27
    Mung says:

    Hardly a prophecy of the modern state of Israel.

    But some of these branches from Abraham’s tree–some of the people of Israel–have been broken off. And you Gentiles, who were branches from a wild olive tree, have been grafted in. So now you also receive the blessing God has promised Abraham and his children, sharing in the rich nourishment from the root of God’s special olive tree.

  28. 28
    bornagain77 says:

    Mung, to step on a few toes here, IMHO you are as bad as a a YEC in regards to your acceptance of replacement theology despite all countervailing evidence to the contrary.

    Luke 21:24
    “They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.”

    i.e. News update,

    http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA_Grap.....papers.jpg

  29. 29
    Mung says:

    BA77, the passage I quoted from Paul says the Gentiles are grafted in and so also receive the blessing.

    That’s also orthodox Christianity and if you don’t believe it that’s too bad for you. How you get from that that I accept “replacement theology” is beyond me.

    The other passage I quoted was Jesus himself speaking. If you claim that he was preaching “replacement theology,” then I am proud to be counted in that number with him.

    Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it.

    Sure sounds to me like someone was going to be replaced.

    There was a [i]landowner who planted a vineyard and put a wall around it and dug a wine press in it, and built a tower, and rented it out to [j]vine-growers and went on a journey. 34 When the [k]harvest time approached, he sent his slaves to the vine-growers to receive his produce. 35 The vine-growers took his slaves and beat one, and killed another, and stoned a third. 36 Again he sent another group of slaves larger than the first; and they did the same thing to them. 37 But afterward he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 38 But when the vine-growers saw the son, they said among themselves, ‘This is the heir; come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’ 39 They took him, and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. 40 Therefore when the [l]owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vine-growers?” 41 They *said to Him, “He will bring those wretches to a wretched end, and will rent out the vineyard to other vine-growers who will pay him the proceeds at the proper seasons.”

  30. 30
    Mung says:

    BA77:

    They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. – Luke 21:24

    How is it that you can interpret Scripture in such a way that you can hold that part of this verse has been fulfilled but not all of it has already been fulfilled?

    For those are the days of vengeance and of fulfilling all that is written. – v. 22

    There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. v. 23

    Which land and which people? Past or future?

    They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations… v. 24

    They who? Past or future?

    At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

    At what time? They who?

    “Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

    So much for futurism.

  31. 31
    bornagain77 says:

    Mung, we could argue Theology all day for weeks on end. As we have already contributed quite a few days on this topic all to no avail. and, As you well know, I find your theology to have gaping holes in it. The main reason I find your theology ‘contrived’ is because of its lack of empirical support.,,, The elephant in the room for you is that Israel is once again a nation. Isaac Newton himself held that prophecy predicted the return of Israel. So you have to downplay Newton, the father of physics, as some sort of lunatic too. Not an easy task for you. Moreover, math and archeology, as mentioned previously in post 4, both confirm the return of Israel as to being a fulfilled prophecy. With Iran nudging closer to nuclear weapons, the world sits on the precipice of a Third World War in the Middle East. Which is another uncomfortable prophecy for you to ignore.

    Moreover, although Christianity has been growing since its inception, first in the west and now, thankfully after Mao’s brutal persecution, in the east,

    China on course to become ‘world’s most Christian nation’ within 15 years – 19 Apr 2014
    Excerpt: Prof Yang, a leading expert on religion in China, believes that number will swell to around 160 million by 2025. That would likely put China ahead even of the United States, which had around 159 million Protestants in 2010 but whose congregations are in decline.
    By 2030, China’s total Christian population, including Catholics, would exceed 247 million, placing it above Mexico, Brazil and the United States as the largest Christian congregation in the world, he predicted.
    “Mao thought he could eliminate religion. He thought he had accomplished this,” Prof Yang said. “It’s ironic – they didn’t. They actually failed completely.”
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/new.....years.html

    Despite all this growth for Christianity, we still live in a very, very, fallen world. Abortion is rampant. Wars still rage. People hate God without reason. The debates right here on UD should be more than enough proof for you that we presently live in a ‘culture of death’ instead of a ‘culture of life’ as would be expected during Christ’s return. If Christ now rules and reigns in this world something is terribly, terribly, amiss. This should be a major clue for you that you are not on the right track Theologically speaking.

    But to go further into empirical evidence, The Shroud of Turin, which I resolutely hold to be an authentic witness to the resurrection of Christ, tells of an extremely powerful event:

    Scientific hypotheses on the origin of the body image of the Shroud – 2010
    Excerpt: for example, if we consider the density of radiation that we used to color a single square centimeter of linen, to reproduce the entire image of the Shroud with a single flash of light would require fourteen thousand lasers firing simultaneously each on a different area of linen. In other words, it would take a laser light source the size of an entire building.
    http://www.30giorni.it/articoli_id_22597_l3.htm

    Scientists say Turin Shroud is supernatural – December 2011
    Excerpt: After years of work trying to replicate the colouring on the shroud, a similar image has been created by the scientists.
    However, they only managed the effect by scorching equivalent linen material with high-intensity ultra violet lasers, undermining the arguments of other research, they say, which claims the Turin Shroud is a medieval hoax.
    Such technology, say researchers from the National Agency for New Technologies, Energy and Sustainable Economic Development (Enea), was far beyond the capability of medieval forgers, whom most experts have credited with making the famous relic.
    “The results show that a short and intense burst of UV directional radiation can colour a linen cloth so as to reproduce many of the peculiar characteristics of the body image on the Shroud of Turin,” they said.
    And in case there was any doubt about the preternatural degree of energy needed to make such distinct marks, the Enea report spells it out: “This degree of power cannot be reproduced by any normal UV source built to date.”
    http://www.independent.co.uk/n.....79512.html

    In fact, besides the intense burst of light, gravity itself was overcome in the resurrection of Christ:

    Particle Radiation from the Body – July 2012 – M. Antonacci, A. C. Lind
    Excerpt: The Shroud’s frontal and dorsal body images are encoded with the same amount of intensity, independent of any pressure or weight from the body. The bottom part of the cloth (containing the dorsal image) would have born all the weight of the man’s supine body, yet the dorsal image is not encoded with a greater amount of intensity than the frontal image. Radiation coming from the body would not only explain this feature, but also the left/right and light/dark reversals found on the cloth’s frontal and dorsal body images.
    http://www.academicjournals.or.....onacci.pdf

    A Quantum Hologram of Christ’s Resurrection? by Chuck Missler
    Excerpt: “You can read the science of the Shroud, such as total lack of gravity, lack of entropy (without gravitational collapse), no time, no space—it conforms to no known law of physics.” The phenomenon of the image brings us to a true event horizon, a moment when all of the laws of physics change drastically. Dame Piczek created a one-fourth size sculpture of the man in the Shroud. When viewed from the side, it appears as if the man is suspended in mid air (see graphic, below), indicating that the image defies previously accepted science. The phenomenon of the image brings us to a true event horizon, a moment when all of the laws of physics change drastically.
    http://www.khouse.org/articles/2008/847

    Moreover, the process that produced the image on the Shroud was a quantum process not a classical process:

    The absorbed energy in the Shroud body image formation appears as contributed by discrete values – Giovanni Fazio, Giuseppe Mandaglio – 2008
    Excerpt: This result means that the optical density distribution,, can not be attributed at the absorbed energy described in the framework of the classical physics model. It is, in fact, necessary to hypothesize a absorption by discrete values of the energy where the ‘quantum’ is equal to the one necessary to yellow one fibril.
    http://cab.unime.it/journals/i.....802004/271

    The following scientist offers a very interesting insight into the power involved in reconciling the mental universe of Quantum Mechanics with the space-time of gravity, i.e. General Relativity:

    How the Power of Intention Alters Matter – Dr. William A. Tiller
    Excerpt: “Most people think that the matter is empty, but for internal self consistency of quantum mechanics and relativity theory, there is required to be the equivalent of 10 to 94 grams of mass energy, each gram being E=MC2 kind of energy. Now, that’s a huge number, but what does it mean practically? Practically, if I can assume that the universe is flat, and more and more astronomical data is showing that it’s pretty darn flat, if I can assume that, then if I take the volume or take the vacuum within a single hydrogen atom, that’s about 10 to the minus 23 cubic centimeters. If I take that amount of vacuum and I take the latent energy in that, there is a trillion times more energy there than in all of the mass of all of the stars and all of the planets out to 20 billion light-years. That’s big, that’s big. And if consciousness allows you to control even a small fraction of that, creating a big bang is no problem.”
    – Dr. William Tiller – has been a professor at Stanford U. in the Department of materials science & Engineering
    http://www.beyondtheordinary.n.....ller.shtml

    And indeed the Shroud gives witness of a ‘singularity’ event

    THE EVENT HORIZON (Space-Time Singularity) OF THE SHROUD OF TURIN. – Isabel Piczek – Particle Physicist
    Excerpt: We have stated before that the images on the Shroud firmly indicate the total absence of Gravity. Yet they also firmly indicate the presence of the Event Horizon. These two seemingly contradict each other and they necessitate the past presence of something more powerful than Gravity that had the capacity to solve the above paradox.
    http://shroud3d.com/findings/i.....-formation

    The Center Of The Universe Is Life – General Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, Entropy and The Shroud Of Turin – video
    http://vimeo.com/34084462

    Matthew 28:18
    And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and upon earth.”

  32. 32
    bornagain77 says:

    Mung the reason I bring all this empirical evidence up is because I certainly do not think that Christ’s second return will be any less dramatic than his defeat of Death!

    Verse, Quote, and Music:

    Matthew 24:27
    “So if they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out, or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them. “For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.

    Ask the Experts: What Is a Near-Death Experience (NDE)? – article with video
    Excerpt: “Very often as they’re moving through the tunnel, there’s a very bright mystical light … not like a light we’re used to in our earthly lives. People call this mystical light, brilliant like a million times a million suns…”
    – Jeffery Long M.D. – has studied NDE’s extensively
    http://abcnews.go.com/Nightlin....._gydvW8jbI

    “Suddenly, I was enveloped in this brilliant golden light. The light was more brilliant that the light emanating from the sun, many times more powerful and radiant than the sun itself. Yet, I was not blinded by it nor burned by it. Instead, the light was a source of energy that embraced my being.”
    Ned Dougherty’s – Fast Lane To Heaven – Quoted from “To Heaven and Back” pg. 71 – Mary C. Neal MD

    The Afters – Light Up The Sky – Official Video
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_318212&feature=iv&src_vid=h3Q-R4esGf4&v=8LQH6UDi15s

  33. 33
    bornagain77 says:

    Mung, I’ve said my piece and I will comment no more because it will be fruitless with you. i.e. believe what you want, you will anyway!

  34. 34
    Mung says:

    BA77:

    Mung the reason I bring all this empirical evidence up is because I certainly do not think that Christ’s second return will be any less dramatic than his defeat of Death!

    At least suggesting that the defeat of death is a past event. Is it?

    The defeat of death. Past or future?

    Now I’ll watch you back-pedal and refuse to acknowledge the defeat of death, making your assertion that Christ’s return will be no less dramatic just so many empty words.

    According to what logic do you claim that the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, ending the priesthood and the sacrifices, was not a dramatic event?

    In one post you raise the dramatic events of Luke 21:24 but in the next you assert that they were not really all that dramatic.

    In one post you claim the events are past and in the next you claim they are future.

    Make up your mind, BA77.

  35. 35
    Mung says:

    BA77:

    Mung, I’ve said my piece and I will comment no more because it will be fruitless with you. i.e. believe what you want, you will anyway!

    I thought we had an understanding BA77.

    You could post all the links you wanted to in lieu of actual debate and I would respect that and no longer criticize it, as I have in the past.

    So don’t pretend that you want to debate or that such debate would be fruitless.

    The fact of the matter is that you cannot defend your position, argue for your position, or refute my position.

    Posting references to articles that you cannot defend is not a substitute for knowing and understanding what you believe and being able to offer a defense for what you believe.

    Paul:

    It is because we realise the paramount importance of the spiritual that we labour and struggle.

  36. 36
    Mung says:

    BA77:

    The elephant in the room for you is that Israel is once again a nation.

    There is a populace in the middle east, occupying a land known as “Palestine” that has taken upon itself the name “Israel.”

    The problem for you is that it’s a non-sequitur to claim that based upon these facts “Israel is once again a nation.”

    Zionists such as yourself like to claim that this is a “fulfillment” of Bible prophecy, but can’t actually defend that claim.

    This contradiction is particularly apparent when the Zionist is also a dispensationalist (as most are), who claims that there is no fulfillment of biblical prophecy that must precede “the rapture.”

    The “prophetic clock” has stopped. You just don’t get to have it both ways. You just can’t have “prophetic fulfillment” before the rapture.

    Make up your mind, BA77.

  37. 37
  38. 38
    Mung says:

    BA77, do you think Paul was the first to advocate “replacement theology”?

    Galatians 4:21-31

    New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    Bond and Free

    21 Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23 But the son by the bondwoman [a]was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24 [b]This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children [c]who are to be slaves; [d]she is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; [e]she is our mother. 27 For it is written,

    “Rejoice, barren woman who does not bear;
    Break forth and shout, you who are not in labor;
    For more numerous are the children of the desolate
    Than of the one who has a husband.”

    28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also. 30 But what does the Scripture say?

    “Cast out the bondwoman and her son,
    For the son of the bondwoman shall not be an heir with the son of the free woman.

    31 So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, [f]but of the free woman.

    here

    Classic dispensationalism claims that the church is a “mystery” and unknown to the prophets. It denies that there are any promises in the Old Testament that are given to the church. Of course, that view cannot hold up under scrutiny and thus we now have a strain of dispensationalism called “progressive dispensationalism.”

  39. 39
    Mung says:

    BA77:

    Mung, to step on a few toes here, IMHO you are as bad as a a YEC in regards to your acceptance of replacement theology despite all countervailing evidence to the contrary.

    Well, that’s just too timely a coincidence to ignore.

    I am currently reading a book explaining the amillennial position.

    Kingdom Come: The Amillennial Alternative

    I opened it this evening to discover that I had last left off at the beginning of Chapter Six: Who are the People of God? Israel, the Church, and “Replacement” Theology.

    See also:
    Why I Changed My Mind About the Millennium

    So whatever ideas I have I’d already formed before ever reading this book and chapter. But let’s see what he says!

    My advice to you, dear reader, is to not be like BA77, who continually buries his head in the sand and refuses to confront information that contradicts his preciously held beliefs, but rather be like the Bereans.

  40. 40
    Mung says:

    BA77:

    Mung the reason I bring all this empirical evidence up is because I certainly do not think that Christ’s second return will be any less dramatic than his defeat of Death!

    When was Death defeated?

    Or do you believe that Christ defeated Death, but Death has not yet been defeated?

  41. 41
    mikeenders says:

    ‘Zionists such as yourself like to claim that this is a “fulfillment” of Bible prophecy, but can’t actually defend that claim.”

    The claim is exceedingly easy to defend from a MULTIPICITY of scriptures however I doubt very seriously UD is the place to have doctrinal debates. Name a time and place appropriate and I will be there. New to posting on UD but not new at all.

  42. 42
    Mung says:

    BA77 claims that until some group of people occupies the land of Palestine and calls itself “the nation of Israel” that God’s promises to Israel have not been fulfilled.

    New International Version
    It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.

    New Living Translation
    Well then, has God failed to fulfill his promise to Israel? No, for not all who are born into the nation of Israel are truly members of God’s people!

    QED

  43. 43
    Mung says:

    BA77 accuses me of accepting “replacement theology” but can’t be bothered to defend that claim.

    BA77:

    Mung, to step on a few toes here, IMHO you are as bad as a a YEC in regards to your acceptance of replacement theology despite all countervailing evidence to the contrary.

    BA77, if you cannot or will not defend that accusation, you should retract it.

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