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Would Moral Subjectivists Agree to Math and Logic Subjectivism?

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One of the recurring themes on this blog is moral subjectivism vs moral objectivism. Subjectivists argue that morals are fundamentally subjective in nature – akin to personal preferences, although very strongly felt. Let us agree for the sake of argument that they are not the same as simple preferences like flavors or fashion or colors and exclude that comparison from the conversation.

All perceptions of any kind are acquired and processed subjectively. That’s not the question; the question is whether or not it is better, more logical, or even necessary to think and act as if what one is referring to is objective in nature. Even though we all perceive what we call the “outside” world subjectively, I’m sure we’d all agree that it is necessary to think and act as if there is an actual, outside world – even if one is a solipsist. If you do not think and act as if it exists, you are in for a world of hurt.

A couple of other threads here refer to the current trend in some academic circles to consider “engineering rigor”, logic, gender and math part of the so-called “white, heterosexual, patriarchical oppression”; in other words, that such things are also subjective in nature and are largely produced by cultural bias. Link 1. Link 2.

If even the existence of the exterior world can be doubted on the grounds of subjectvism, certainly logic and math, which exist – as far as we can tell – solely in the mind, must be “subjective” in nature. Unless a subjectivist wishes to argue that thoughts can be anything other than subjective in nature, how exactly would they argue that math and logic objectively exist, or are objectively binding for everyone? Why should they be?

I don’t see how that argument can be made. If such abstract models are necessarily subjective in nature, then it follows that “engineering rigor,” which relies on math and logic, is one particular subjective perspective that has been forced on everyone via various building codes and laws. This argument is precisely the same as the argument for moral subjectivism; because something cannot be seen or measured in the exterior world and appears to exist solely in the heart or mind of the observer (which is true of math, logic and morality), then it must be subjective in nature, and must be accepted as such and treated as such.

Would a moral subjectivist be willing to live their life in a society where math and logic are considered subjective? Would they be willing to live in buildings where all features of the construction were left up to the builder’s subjective view of math, logic and engineering rigor? Where people were free to dismantle, change and add on to the structure based on their own subjective views? Exactly how long does one think a building would last if everyone got to change whatever part of it they wanted according to their subjective views? What if someone didn’t like the foundation and just started dismantling it and replacing it with something they subjectively think is better? Would a subjectivist get on a plane or a boat built by engineering subjectivists, or while enroute was being altered by engineering subjectivists?

And yet, the foundation and structure that built and maintains our entire society, informs the social construct and serves as the basis of law, is something moral subjectivists say will survive, thrive and even get better if we embrace moral subjectivism. Would moral subjectivists agree to math and logic subjectivism? To engineering subjectivism? If not, why not? Are they claiming math and logic are objective commodities and universally binding, even though they only exist in the world of mind and are – apparently – capable of being dismissed (by a growing segment) as subjective cultural biases?

Comments
SB: None of those examples qualify as self evident truths.
Says you. Sadly, they were claimed to be self-evident truths.
I didn't say that no one ever *claimed* they weren't self evident truths. People lie and make ignorant statements for political gain all the time. I said they were not self evident truths as understood by those who discovered the nature of self evident truths (and everyone else who is honest). There are only a few of them and you ought to know what they are by now. Meanwhile, you didn't answer my question: Either you support the child-murderer's right to form his own subjective morality, or else you believe that you are the only one entitled to do that. Which is it?StephenB
January 17, 2018
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KF,
remember, too that what was at stake is that 2 + 3 = 5 cannot be denied but on pain of absurdity. there are literally infinitely many cases that would have to be enumerated if the approach were offered as a proof, instead I illustrated a general and fairly obvious pattern by concrete instructive example.
Thanks, I see the distinction now. You didn't prove 2 + 3 = 5, but rather were showing that 2 + 3 = 6 is impossible.daveS
January 17, 2018
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DS, I already spoke to the subject at 102, which you partly cited. The full comment is:
I did not try to prove per deductions from non-question-begging premises that an equation is false. I showed that a common sense tick-off process would land very quickly in absurdity, illustrating in a way that instructs understanding — a very different thing. Similarly that nothing would join with nothing to result in something is absurd is a truth we intuit, not assume or prove; yes, that too is self-evident. The SET in focus was something we can see on our fingers: 2 + 3 = 5.
The absurdity in question is not a reductio proof, in many relevant cases, such an attempt would entail a vast exercise, which would be far less certain and clear than the instructive demonstration or the pointing out of the absurdity or the like. An educational exercise intended to draw out insight is not a proof. remember, too that what was at stake is that 2 + 3 = 5 cannot be denied but on pain of absurdity. there are literally infinitely many cases that would have to be enumerated if the approach were offered as a proof, instead I illustrated a general and fairly obvious pattern by concrete instructive example. KFkairosfocus
January 17, 2018
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PS: Just for note, the notion that the majority of people disbelieve in the existence of God is first false, blatantly and manifestly false. Secondly, the relevant majority of people for SET's is those who are in a position to understand based on their background, and in our day we have seen ever so many ill-founded propaganda campaigns to try to discredit the reality of first principles of right reason, or that we can know some things to undeniable certainty, much less the reality of God, even to the point of suggesting that to believe in God is little more than dangerous, potentially violent lunacy; some of it done while dressed up in the lab coat. As in, Sagan's "demons." I would suggest, finally, that when you stand before God in judgement, try to explain to him. You account to him, not me.kairosfocus
January 17, 2018
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JS, first, turnabout accusations in the teeth of already grounded facts are yet another trollish tactic. (onlookers go to the onward linked.) Second, you have taken yet another convenient excuse to evade dealing with substantial matters in front of you. The implication -- drawn for cause -- is, you have no intent of being responsible before the merits of the matter. KFkairosfocus
January 17, 2018
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JSmith:
Then God is not self evident.
How do you figure?ET
January 17, 2018
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ET
If the majority of people do not accept it then it clearly is NOT self-evident.
Then God is not self evident. Do you want to tell KF or should I?JSmith
January 17, 2018
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KF, Any comment on #104?daveS
January 17, 2018
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JSmith:
However, I prefer to take a more adult and mature approach.
All evidence to the contrary, of course.ET
January 17, 2018
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JSmith:
Since when did you guys think that majority rules?
If the majority of people do not accept it then it clearly is NOT self-evident
That only leads to might and manipulation make right.
That's your opinion and it clearly isn't self-evidentET
January 17, 2018
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KF
just as a notice to onlookers who haven’t kept close watch for several weeks, you are credibly a sock-puppet persona of a notorious, animus-driven troll and unsurprisingly are playing the trollish tactic of drumbeat repetition of the long since adequately answered.
I guess that it is always easier to attack the character of those who disagree with you than to rationally attack their arguments. Duly noted. However, I prefer to take a more adult and mature approach. When you are capable of responding to comments without resorting to childish personal attacks, I will respond. Until then, you simply have nothing of value to hear.JSmith
January 17, 2018
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ET
By who? Clearly not by the majority of people in the world.
Since when did you guys think that majority rules? That only leads to might and manipulation make right.JSmith
January 17, 2018
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JS, just as a notice to onlookers who haven't kept close watch for several weeks, you are credibly a sock-puppet persona of a notorious, animus-driven troll and unsurprisingly are playing the trollish tactic of drumbeat repetition of the long since adequately answered. Trivially, anyone may question or challenge any knowledge claim, fact claim, principle etc that he pleases. That has been a given. No-one can stop that. But where that falls apart is when the self-referentially incoherent and infinitely regressive notion of radical fallibilism and linked selective hyperskeptisism are brought into play. In short, SB's point is that we need to respect warrant and we need to recognise first principles without which responsible discussion collapses. And, relevant warrant has been put up any number of times, just studiously and irresponsibly evaded. In very brief summary for record, even your objections are implicitly assuming and expecting that WE -- the sheeple/ normies/ eloi/ dummies etc. you so patently despise, mock and disdain in your natural environment of skeptic sites running on toxic hostility [and we have the links as you know A b/ W S/ JS / many other sockpuppet identities] -- will recognise and respect the moral governance that is inextricably entangled with reasoning. Stupid little things like duties to truth, to sound logic, to fairness, to honour and decency, etc. If that governance is dismissed as delusion or the like, what it does is it poisons and perverts intellect into the tool of ruthless deception and manipulation, radically undermining the fabric of community necessary for human thriving. Yes, we see here the soft nihilism of might and manipulation making 'right' 'truth' 'warrant' 'knowledge' 'justice' and more. Patent absurdity. Going further, moral government is inextricable from reasoning, so if it is delusional, the virus taints all of mindedness. Rationality and responsible discussion, creation of trustworthy bodies of knowledge and more collapse. Again, absurdity. We therefore have every good reason -- notice the entanglement there -- to accept that the intuitive sense of moral government over our rational life is not delusion. Indeed that the attempt to dismiss its objectivity ends in absurdities and in outright threats to civilisation. As we can see all around. Starting with the ongoing abortion holocaust that trollish behaviour such as you have indulged for years enables. A holocaust that mounts up at a million more victims from our living posterity in the womb per week, on a baseline of 800+ millions since the early 1970's. But that gets a little ahead of where we are. What we see so far is that it is self-evident that we are morally governed. This means that we live in a world where the world-root must be such that it adequately grounds that. Thus, we must face the IS-OUGHT gap that you have sneered at, and we must see that post Hume's guillotine, the world root is the only place it can be bridged. As a troll persona, your dismissals will only further show why your credibility is zero. For the moment, I will leave that matter as a point to be resolved. Something else is needed. And despite your evasions, it is highly instructive that the sadly real world case already given is self-evident. Yes, we may see that it is evil to kidnap, bind, violate and murder a child for pleasure. This will teach us much on neighbourliness, the inherent value of the human person or any other responsible, rational creature of like order, the significance of community as a critical means of supporting human thriving across the lifespan, the priority of the civil peace of justice and more. From such, many more principles will come. So, the issue is not oh you want to suppress questioning moral principles but that there are those who under that colour, will refuse to respect good warrant and will set out to deceive, manipulate, intimidate and mislead through soft nihilism. And don't you even try clever little word games about how moral perceptions and "values" have a shadowy subjective existence in our heads. You full well know or should know that subjectivism, relativism and emotivism backed by radical fallibilism is tantamount to these things are figments of the imagination. So let us play the manipulation game to impose our will to power. Enough for the moment. KFkairosfocus
January 17, 2018
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JSmith:
Sadly, they were claimed to be self-evident truths.
By who? Clearly not by the majority of people in the world. But then again you seem to have problems with definitions.ET
January 17, 2018
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SB
None of those examples qualify as self evident truths.
Says you. Sadly, they were claimed to be self-evident truths. http://www.ushistory.org/us/images/00034650.jpg Why are you so certain that the self-evident truths that you now hold are actually self-evident truths? Don’t you think that those in the 1500s, 1600s, 1700s, 1800s and 1900s had the same level of certainty that you have? Why are humans in 2018 more certain of their self-evident truths than those of previous centuries? That seems to me like the height of arrogance.JSmith
January 17, 2018
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JS
I really don’t understand the reluctance to examining our moral value. If the moral value is really self-evident, or absolute, it is going to survive any rational examination. Can you really conceive of a situation where a rational examination of the moral value that kidnapping, raping, torturing and killing a young child would conclude that it is morally acceptable?
Subjectivists find these actions morally acceptable insofar as they will not acknowledge the moral law as objectively binding for all people at all times. You, for example, believe that every person, including the rapist and child-murderer, is entitled to formulate his own personal morality and decide what is good "for him," regardless of whether such actions are objectively good. Thus, you support the child murderer in his decision to be a subjectivist. Unless, of course, you want to say that you are entitled to choose your personal morality but no one else is. Which way would you like to go on that one?StephenB
January 17, 2018
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JS
We are talking about self evident moral truths. These are the ones that should be questioned.
Why should the self-evident truth of the existence of good and evil and self-evident truth that some actions are good and bad be questioned?
Yet the arguments for retaining the previous injustices were that they were self-evident truths.
No such argument has ever been made by anyone who knows the definition of a self evident truth.StephenB
January 17, 2018
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JSmith:
Can you really conceive of a situation where a rational examination of the moral value that kidnapping, raping, torturing and killing a young child would conclude that it is morally acceptable?
Yes- in a materialistic world there wouldn't be anything wrong with that. In that world there is no place or need for morals.ET
January 17, 2018
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Lar Tanner
While I appreciate your comment, I don’t understand if my actual question is answered directly. Again, I am asking WJM — or someone – to explain in what sense evil exists.
Metaphysically, evil exists as a privation of the good or a working against the good. Psychologically, evil exists as a perversion of the will.StephenB
January 17, 2018
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SB
A self evident truth is not open to question. What is the point of questioning the truth if it is known to be true?
We are talking about self evident moral truths. These are the ones that should be questioned.
None of those examples qualify as self evident truths.
Yet the arguments for retaining the previous injustices were that they were self-evident truths. I really don’t understand the reluctance to examining our moral value. If the moral value is really self-evident, or absolute, it is going to survive any rational examination. Can you really conceive of a situation where a rational examination of the moral value that kidnapping, raping, torturing and killing a young child would conclude that it is morally acceptable?JSmith
January 17, 2018
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JS
If you want to limit your ability to have a rational debate, that is your choice. Since morality exists independent of the existence of evil, I have no problem having a rational discussion about it.
No. You do have a problem in that area. It is impossible to have a rational discussion about morality without recognizing that morality is about good and bad (evil) actions, thoughts, and intentions. According to your "morality," which is really a misuse of the term, there are only actions, thoughts, and intentions that you like and don't like.StephenB
January 17, 2018
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Wow- evil is a concept that connotes immorality. Evil is bad and evil is wrong. Without evil you cannot have immorality. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/evil the fact of suffering or wrongdoing bad behavior or moral state https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/evil Synonyms of evil: adverse, bad, baleful, baneful, damaging, dangerous, deleterious, detrimental, harmful, hurtful, ill, injurious, mischievous, nocuous, noxious, pernicious, prejudicial, wickedET
January 17, 2018
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JS
You don’t unless you are open to questioning all “self-evident moral truths”.
'' A self evident truth is not open to question. What is the point of questioning the truth if it is known to be true?
Which is the process [questioning] that was used to throw out other “self-evident truths” like blacks are inferior, women do not have the intellectual and emotional stability to have the vote, and homosexuality is not natural and a sin. If it is truly a “truth” it will always pass a rational, logical, evidence based examination.
None of those examples qualify as self evident truths. They are not immediately known to be true. In fact, except for the evil of homosexuality, which can be derived from the natural law, they are false. It is clear that you do not know the meaning of a self evident truth even after all this time. Is it willful ignorance?StephenB
January 17, 2018
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ET
It does? Morality is defined as “principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior.” So if there isn’t any evil, ie badness, then morality is moot.
Bad and wrong are not synonymous with evil.JSmith
January 17, 2018
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Bob O'H:
Now, how do we distinguish self evident truths from indoctrination?
Put them to a test. Self-evident truths will pass whereas indoctrination will not.ET
January 17, 2018
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JSmith:
If you want to limit your ability to have a rational debate, that is your choice.
Any debate with you is going to be very limited and it isn't by our choice.
Since morality exists independent of the existence of evil,
It does? Morality is defined as "principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior." So if there isn't any evil, ie badness, then morality is moot.ET
January 17, 2018
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Evil, and good, have objective reality. That is what it means "to exist".ET
January 17, 2018
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KF @109 - While I appreciate your comment, I don't understand if my actual question is answered directly. Again, I am asking WJM -- or someone - to explain in what sense evil exists. WJM obviously asserts that it does exist. I want to know exactly what he means by "exists." Perhaps my question does not make sense, but I believe his response is fundamental to a productive follow-on discussion. If my question needs to be clarified further, I will try to elaborate, but I want to avoid muddying the conversation and hope instead that WJM will understand my meaning and provide a direct reply.LarTanner
January 17, 2018
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LT, recognising that evil exists through examples is in a sense antecedent to understanding its core characteristics. For me the shock one afternoon in the 1980's will never leave me. A familiar youngster, child of an even more familiar campus character was ripped from us, brutally seized, bound and gagged so he could not cry for help or fight for his life, violated and murdered by someone seeking to fulfill pleasures that in no world could weigh more than the life of a child. Such a case is highly instructive. KF PS: This case illustrates how evils degrade, frustrate, pervert and destroy that which has by nature an end that is higher than that. I think even of feral chickens squawking and fleeing a car on a road for their lives, or agoutis eating fruit with front paws while sitting on haunches while ever watching for danger and contrast a puppy I once saw that was too dejected to even get up out of the way on a road.kairosfocus
January 17, 2018
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WJM
Unless one agrees that evil exists, one cannot have a rational debate about morality.
If you want to limit your ability to have a rational debate, that is your choice. Since morality exists independent of the existence of evil, I have no problem having a rational discussion about it.JSmith
January 17, 2018
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