Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Wow! Just Wow!

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This has never happened to me until today.  I made a prediction about Darwinist debating tactics and the prediction was fulfilled in the very post in which I made it!!! 

In this post I describe the common Darwinist “literature bluff” tactic: 

Note carefully the common Darwinist tactic here:

Literature bluff: There are thousands of books and articles demonstrating Darwinist proposition X.

Calling the bluff: OK, show me exactly where in just one of those books or articles this proposition is established.

Inevitable Darwinist response: [crickets]

Then in the comments section Alan Fox posts this link “beneficial mutations drosophila” in comment 8, and in comment 9 he says:  “One or two article in there must be worth a glance, or am I bluffing?! 

This is the classic literature bluff.  Alan is saying, essentially, “Hey look.  I googled “beneficial mutations drosophila” and got 349,000 hits!  QED, the literature proves that scientists have induced beneficial mutations in drosophila, and that in turn proves beyond doubt the Darwinist position on macroevolution.”   

Astounding.  So let’s see how this unfolds [I feel like Flounder in Animal House:  “Oh boy, this is GREAT!”]

Step 1:  Alan makes his literature bluff as described above.

Step 2:  Sterusjon calls Alans bluff when he writes: 

BEGIN STERUSJON QUOTE: 

Just for kicks, I followed your link in post #8. I found 349,000 Google hits. All well and good. I found numerous hits that were irrelevant to the issue. I found that many of the top links lead to the same paper. On that account the 349,000 number is quite deceptive. In addition that often listed paper defined its “beneficial” mutation as a change that allowed subsequent generations to survive in an artificial environment of >4% NaCl in their food supply that their distant ancestors could not. Oh, the wonders of micro-evolution to bring about macro-differences is thus demonstrated.

I wonder if the salt tolerance would persist if the flies where returned to “normal” feeding conditions? Just as Scambray noted about other “beneficial” mutations.

But more than that, I found these two links:

http://news.sciencemag.org/sci…..23-05.html where I found:

The researchers turned to the fruit fly Drosophila melanogaster to test this hypothesis. By crafting synthetic chromosomes, they created flies that reproduce asexually. They then established 17 populations of these asexual flies, all with white eyes. For comparison, they also set up 17 populations of white-eyed sexual flies. The team then let the insects breed for 10 generations. They added red-eyed flies and artificially favored the red-eyed gene by adding more red-eyed flies each generation. Thus the red-eyed gene mimicked a beneficial mutation. (Emphasis added by me)

“[A]rtificially…mimicked a beneficial mutation” What’s this. No real beneficial mutations?

And http://harunyahya.com/en/Evrim…..Drosophila where this was to be found:

All evolutionist efforts to establish beneficial mutations have ended in failure. In order to reverse this pattern, evolutionists have for decades been carrying out experiments on fruit flies, which reproduce very quickly and which can easily be subjected to mutations. Scientists have encouraged these insects to undergo all kinds of mutations, a great many times. However, not one single useful mutation has ever been observed.

The evolutionist geneticist Gordon R. Taylor describes these evolutionists’ pointless persistence:

It is a striking, but not much mentioned fact that, though geneticists have been breeding fruit flies for sixty years or more in labs all round the world—flies which produce a new generation every eleven days—they have never yet seen the emergence of a new species or even a new enzyme.

Another researcher, Michael Pitman, expresses the failure of the experiments on fruit flies:

. . . geneticists have subjected generations of fruit flies to extreme conditions of heat, cold, light, dark, and treatment by chemicals and radiation. All sorts of mutations, practically all trivial or positively deleterious, have been produced. Man-made evolution? Not really: Few of the geneticists’ monsters could have survived outside the bottles they were bred in. In practice mutants die, are sterile, or tend to revert to the wild type.

In short, like all other living things, fruit flies possess specially created genetic information. The slightest alteration in that information only leads to harm.

(Citation links removed)

If appears that more of the “evidence” is contrary to your position.

Are you bluffing? Yes! If you know where the evidence is buried in your 349,000 hits, please point to it with specificity. My perusal indicates it is not so easy to find. I’m calling your bluff.

Stephen 

END STERUSJON QUOTE: 

Now, let me make another prediction.  The third step that I described [i.e., “crickets”] will now follow.  Don’t get me wrong.  Alan and others will likely post comments at a frenetic pace in response to Stephen’s work.  What you will not see is any comment that actually demonstrates that the drosophila mutation experiments establish Darwinist claims beyond dispute as the Darwinists so often claim.

Classic.

Comments
@Alan Fox
Do you have a formulation of information (as it is most commonly conceived) that is useful, measurable, and scientific? Or is this simply another area of study in which science (as you’d define it) is impotent?
Science can study any real phenomenon. Phenomena transcend language. You have to go beyond “as is most commonly conceived” to something a little more specific. I have no idea what people (in this venue) mean when they bandy words around such as intelligent, design, agency, information, semiosis etc. There seems an aversion to defining terms. Define a phenomenon and, if it is real, science will find a way of studying it.
Alan, you've poo-pooed the ID formulation of information as being neither useful, measurable, nor scientific. I'm merely trying to figure out what you have on offer that would better suffice. If you feel that definitions are lacking, then please fill in the blanks as you see fit. Show us how its done. This is your opportunity to help us out and move the science of information forward. After all, no one wants to be a science stopper, do they? Alternatively, if you'd like to dig into definitions, perhaps you could explain to me what "real" means when you say, "science can study any real phenomenon."Phinehas
March 18, 2013
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Alan Fox:
The burden is on those who think this is a real concept to define it in a meaningful way.
Simple unspecified nonsense!Mung
March 17, 2013
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OT: kf you may like this,,
Mark Burnett says 'weird things happened' on 'The Bible' set by Grady Smith ,,,The Bible beat everything on television with a massive 13.1 million viewers, making it cable’s most-watched entertainment telecast this year.,,, “The hand of God was on this…. the edit came together perfectly, the actors came together perfectly, it just comes to life.” But Burnett wasn’t just speaking about how well the practicalities of production had gone. “Weird things happened during filming,” he said. “Everybody would look at each other like, “Whoa.”,,, A mighty desert wind “There’s a scene with Jesus and Nicodemus, when Nicodemus comes to Jesus in the night. It’s a very still night, not a breath of wind, and we’re on the edge of the Sahara desert in a palm grove in an oasis… Jesus says, ‘The Holy Spirit is like the wind.’ At that moment, a wind, like as if a 747 was taking off, blew his hair, almost blew the set over and sustained for 20 seconds across the desert, and the actors didn’t break — they kept going. And everything stopped. Everyone just looked at everyone like, ‘What just happened?’”,, http://insidetv.ew.com/2013/03/06/mark-burnett-bible-set/
I can relate:
Miracle Testimony - One Easter Sunday Sunrise Service - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3995314/ John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
bornagain77
March 16, 2013
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F/N 2: Biology is the science of life. However, tehre is no generally accepted precise definition of life. And so what is done is that we study on key cases and those with sufficient family resemblance. Over these past 8 or so years, that has been repeatedly highlighted, and its implication, that ostensive definition by key example and family resemblance is quite valid, also. KFkairosfocus
March 15, 2013
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F/N: Cf here on the FSCO/I content of AF's earlier comment.kairosfocus
March 15, 2013
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AF @ 339:
I assert information, as hijacked and meaninglessly modified by acronyms such as CSI is not a useful, measurable or scientific concept. Why you think that I could tell you how much CSI was in anything is puzzling? I am saying it is impossible. Is that clear enough?
This is of course, in attempted dismissal of a working out of the FSCO/I involved in an earlier dismissive comment made by AF, using the Chi_500 metric model for FSCO/I. The sneering dismissal without engaging the actual substantial matter on its merits, inadvertently reveals the actual balance on the merits. Namely, there is in fact an adequate definition and metric model for FSCO/I, but that is inconvenient for the objectors to the design inference on FSCO/I as reliable sign, so they will put up a cloud of dismissive words. Similarly, we see attempts to pretend there are not adequate definitions of design, intelligence, information, etc. All of this is tantamount to a retreat from the world of reasonable, objective analysis, and in the case of those who have been repeatedly corrected and pointed to where they can easily find reasonable answers if those were genuine questions (as in: the resources tab here at UD has in it a glossary link as well as weak argument correctives, and there is reasonable onward access to various sources that can easily be found), it sadly, goes to character. AF, please, think again and do better. KFkairosfocus
March 15, 2013
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Alan Fox:
Science can study any real phenomenon.
It can't study non-mobile bacteria evolving a flagellum via blind and undirected chemical processes. So that must not be real. ;) It can't study bacteria evolving into eukaryotes via blind and undirected chemical processes, so that must not be real. Geez it can't study macroevolution as defined by Coyne in WEIT, so that must not be real. Nice job Alan.Joe
March 15, 2013
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Alan Fox:
Re CSI: The burden is on those who think this is a real concept to define it in a meaningful way.
We have. CSI has been defined in a meaningful way as compared to anything your position has to offer. IOW Alan, yours is not a valid rejection of the concept.
I have no idea what people (in this venue) mean when they bandy words around such as intelligent, design, agency, information, semiosis etc.
We use them in the normal senses, Alan. Just buy a dictionary or use onelook.Joe
March 15, 2013
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Information (signs) only originate from mind and are only understandable by mind. Does information exist independent from mind? No it does not. Signs become meaningless without a mind. Therefor does it not exist objectively? It does exist but for its existence it is dependent on mind. It has no separate existence from mind. Mind is a necessary being for information - which is contingent.Box
March 15, 2013
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Do you have a formulation of information (as it is most commonly conceived) that is useful, measurable, and scientific? Or is this simply another area of study in which science (as you’d define it) is impotent?
Science can study any real phenomenon. Phenomena transcend language. You have to go beyond "as is most commonly conceived" to something a little more specific. I have no idea what people (in this venue) mean when they bandy words around such as intelligent, design, agency, information, semiosis etc. There seems an aversion to defining terms. Define a phenomenon and, if it is real, science will find a way of studying it. ReificationAlan Fox
March 15, 2013
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@Alan Fox Do you have a formulation of information (as it is most commonly conceived) that is useful, measurable, and scientific? Or is this simply another area of study in which science (as you'd define it) is impotent?Phinehas
March 15, 2013
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In one sense, information only exists when there is an observer.
Can you count it, though?Alan Fox
March 15, 2013
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Is anyone else starting to see parallels between our discussion on information and quantum theory? In one sense, information only exists when there is an observer. (One perspective on the discussion.) In another sense, saying it doesn't exist outside of an observer is about as helpful as saying the same about matter. (The other perspective on the discussion.)Phinehas
March 15, 2013
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Can you tell us how much specified information exists in the above quote from you? If you can, then you’re basically there. If you deny that it can be calculated, then you eviscerate your own argument.
What a bizarre comment! I assert information, as hijacked and meaninglessly modified by acronyms such as CSI is not a useful, measurable or scientific concept. Why you think that I could tell you how much CSI was in anything is puzzling? I am saying it is impossible. Is that clear enough?Alan Fox
March 15, 2013
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I had hoped to find the reason we have come to different conclusions about CSI and its derivatives. It seems there are no reasons. You are just loony tunes from the get-go.
First off, apologies for the recent break in communication. Our village is due for a once-in-a-generation event for which there have been numerous regional and departmental sponsored preparations, amongst which was an installation of "street" lighting. Unfortunately, in the process, the telephone lines for the commune were severed and we have had no telephone or internet chez nous from Tuesday until today. Re CSI: The burden is on those who think this is a real concept to define it in a meaningful way. Re "loony tunes" Fair enough! Ignore any further comment from me.Alan Fox
March 15, 2013
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Box,
Indeed. Now, before I comment any further: where do you locate the information?
I locate the information, in the your specific hypothetical case, in the arrangement of matter, specifically the absence or presence of two milk bottles on the porch, as defined by a semiotic system agreed to by two intelligent agents. That does not mean it is restricted to that place. It originates in the sender (you) and is deposited by you on the porch. It is transmitted via reflected light to the receiver (your neighbor or any other neighbor or other detector in a position to observe your porch and interpret it within the information definition) who recognizes the information you have positioned at the designated place as agreed when defining what constitutes information in the construction of the semiotic system. In my previous post I made mention of information/message vs. knowledge vs. understanding. That is where I think our discussion should focus. Information is ubiquitous. Take, for example, the room temperature. There is a arrangement of matter in the room that is the heat content of the air around me. I, by means of a semiotic system, whether, Celsius, Fahrenheit, Kelvin or one of my own invention, convert that arrangement of matter to a numerical or qualitative (as in cold, cool, perfect, warm or hot) representation. That representation is information, also. I can add that information to the other information I hold in a catalog of knowledge. The catalog of knowledge is inert. It changes nothing. It causes nothing. It is the unique power of intellect to utilize a catalog of knowledge by perceiving the interconnections and interactions among the items of information in the catalog. The essence of intelligence is the ability to understand knowledge. That is the source of creativity, invention and action. In the sciences of the mind there may different terminology that is specifically designed to make the differentiations I have just tried to make. I am happy to add to my catalog of knowledge if someone would be so kind. My point is that to dismiss what is by nature or can be instilled by agents in an arrangement of matter as illusionary is foolishness. I am happy to add modifiers to words or even invent new words to eliminate ambiguity, but I strenuously object to the denial of information’s very existence in the absence of your two milk bottles. Recognition of its existence is the prerequisite to the onward steps of qualifying it and quantifying it. Important objectives to better understand the issues in the debate at the heart of UD’s mission. Stephensterusjon
March 15, 2013
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Phinehas @323,
"Perhaps the information is in the protocol and not the bottles? In other words, it is the mapping that makes it information. Once the mapping is created (requiring mind), then the information exists whether the bottles are present or not."
I think I largely agree, although I would say the protocol is what gives the information its context, where the presence or absence of the bottles is the bit of information taken in the context of the protocol, the agreement between neighbors. The meaning of the presence or absence of the bottles, as is understood by the receiving neighbor, is the effect I suppose. And with a single bit of information, the presence or absence of that bit (its state) are both necessary for the communication of the agreed meaning. In a byte of information, the state of each of the eight bits, whether on or off, are necessary for information to be properly conveyed. The binary string 01000001 generally represents the letter 'A' on a computer system, and for this combination of values, their presence or absence is the information.
"Is it possible for something (or its lack) to represent something else without there being information present?"
I don't see how, not if we define information to be the input portion of the mapping between symbol and meaning, and if the protocol is currently in effect.Chance Ratcliff
March 14, 2013
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Eric @334, Thanks, you're too kind. :) And I can see, now that I've bothered to read more carefully the comments upthread, that you've indeed been making the same general point. Sterusjon @324 has an interesting post as well.Chance Ratcliff
March 14, 2013
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Chance @332: Well said and clearly spelled out, particularly the latter half of your large middle paragraph.Eric Anderson
March 14, 2013
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Eric @ 330, thanks for the response.
"Everyone knows that information can be produced and can be recognized. To produce something means there must be something to be produced. To recognize something means there must be something to be recognized."
Agreed. I don't know of a better way of keeping track of thoughts/ideas which occur "inside" a mind, versus that which externally represents them. We naturally consider information to be the external representation of thought.Chance Ratcliff
March 14, 2013
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Box @ 331, Good comments. The notion of context representing a "dimension" of information is certainly interesting. In this video, Winston Ewert talks about Conditional Kolmogorov Complexity, which attempts to measure how much information is imported into meaning via various degrees of context. With regard to your statement,
"What we call information is something that flows from a mind."
I agree with that statement, understanding information to be that form of thought which proceeds outside of, and becomes external to, a mind. Is this the sense that you intended? In that sense, information is also what "enters into", and causes thought, inside of a mind. In a very important sense then, information is the external form of thought, the material product of a conscious mind expressing ideas for the purposes of communicating/sharing them. In this case we can consider the both spoken word and its written form, as information. I don't know if you agree, but it seems quite comfortable and natural to consider thought as that which exists within the context of a mind, and information as the spoken or written form of thought, delivered outside of a mind, for the purpose of expressing ideas and even emotions. We need identifiers for both things, and the term information is formally defined, and generally excepted, as the external form of thought, the material product of a mind.
What is IWC? Is it out there? Does it exist on its own? Is it real en tangible? Or does it only become real en tangible once it is encapsulated in a mind?
I think that certain types of information don't really become alive until they are ascertained, but I don't generally consider information in a vacuum either. Any external form of thought, the material representation of it, information, proceeds from real and genuine thought, and was given its life on that occasion. The letters "HELP" scrawled largely and desperately upon the beach of a desert island represent genuine, living thought. They are not the thoughts themselves, they are information, an artifact of the conscious expression of a living being.Chance Ratcliff
March 14, 2013
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[I wrote this attempt of analysis with the example of written text in mind] - What we call information is something that flows from a mind. - Once outside the mind it is ‘information without context’ (IWC) – it went from 3D to 2D. It is potentially coherent, potentially meaningful. UB calls it ‘incomplete form’. Maybe ‘content without form’ (flattened) would be an alternative. In principle it can be no longer understood because it is about things that can only be understood in context – without context no information / meaning. It needs a 3D world to regain shape. - 2D to 3D. Another mind can resurrect a context for IWC and give it form. This mind will provide a different context, but when not too different from the original mind the information has meaning / can be recognized. What is IWC? Is it out there? Does it exist on its own? Is it real en tangible? Or does it only become real en tangible once it is encapsulated in a mind?Box
March 14, 2013
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Chance @329:
In that latter case, if we are calling the symbols the information, then surely they objectively exist, regardless of whether anyone is reading the comments. However if we are calling the effect that the symbols produce the information, then surely they can only have an effect while being processed by the system (brain). Therefore it seems to me that the status of descriptive information when it is not being observed is dependent on whether we are defining information as the input or the output, the symbols or thoughts themselves, the cause or the effect. Or have I hacked it up?
I think you are very much on track. This is essentially the point I have been making. If we take the somewhat unusual approach being proposed by some folks and define "information" as the effect, then we just have to come up with a different term to use for the coordinated symbols themselves. There is no need to go through this semantic game. The word "information" is regularly and typically used for the coordinated symbols. This is pretty binary and simple: Is there something there? If not, then there is nothing to recognize. If so, then what do we call that something. Simple. We call it "information." Everyone knows that information can be produced and can be recognized. To produce something means there must be something to be produced. To recognize something means there must be something to be recognized.Eric Anderson
March 14, 2013
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Given the relationship between information and its effect within the context of a system, it sure seems difficult to insist that there is no objective sense of information at all. Upthread I used a cassette tape player as an example of a system for transferring recorded information. In the context of that system, packets of magnetic data are converted into audio signals by way of the specific configuration of the cassette player hardware. Is it agreed that the information present on the cassette tape is objectively present even when it is not currently being played? I suppose we could call this a form of prescriptive information in that it's a form of information which has a specific material effect within the context of a specifically configured system. Are we in error to confuse the information on the cassette tape with the audio signals which emanate from the speaker of the player? It would seem so. I only mean that it seems obvious there needs to be a careful distinction between the cause of the effect and the effect itself. I haven't always been making this distinction myself when discussing information. When a book is closed and not read, is it the information which ceases to exist, or is it the effect that the information causes? And if we should be calling the effect of reading the text "information," then what do we call the cause? I suppose we could say that descriptive information is fundamentally different. Prescriptive information can have its effect independent of an agent once the system has been properly configured. For example, a motion detector is an independent system, and the information which goes into programming it can be said to be part of a deterministic system once it is input. So the whole thing can basically operate independently of agency once it is operational. However descriptive information, as I understand it, would be like the comments on this blog. They only invoke their effect on agents capable of deciphering them. However we still have the fundamental components of information transfer -- the symbols, the brain which comprehends them, and the effect which are the thoughts produced by comprehension. In that latter case, if we are calling the symbols the information, then surely they objectively exist, regardless of whether anyone is reading the comments. However if we are calling the effect that the symbols produce the information, then surely they can only have an effect while being processed by the system (brain). Therefore it seems to me that the status of descriptive information when it is not being observed is dependent on whether we are defining information as the input or the output, the symbols or thoughts themselves, the cause or the effect. Or have I hacked it up?Chance Ratcliff
March 14, 2013
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Mung,
"There are no thoughts in a book."
Pedant! :p Will the judges accept "thoughts translated into codes and recorded as symbols" in a book? And could we shorten "thoughts translated into codes and recorded as symbols" to "thoughts" presuming the context is sufficient to glean the appropriate meaning?Chance Ratcliff
March 14, 2013
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sterusjon: Let me see if I have this right. one time- zero information two times- a teeny-tiny bit of information … one thousand times- whole bunch of information
We have a misunderstanding, unless you reason from the perspective of the nosey observer. I arguid that a one-time agreement between my neighbor and me would be ‘undecodable’ for this nosey observer.
sterusjon:The fact that information does require a context (semiotic system) does not mean that information is not imbedded in the arbitrarily selected absence of milk bottles (placing the milk bottles on the floor inside the front door and out of sight instead of placing them on the porch.) Actually, the existence of the context (semiotic system that has been established) defines the arrangement of milk bottles to be information. Their absence signifies one thing and their presence means something else.
Indeed. Now, before I comment any further: where do you locate the information?Box
March 14, 2013
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Eric A.: But that doesn’t mean something isn’t objectively there. Once it is created by a mind it exists.
Eric, you keep saying that, but the question is whether we can pinpoint the location of the information. And whether it is 'a real tangible thing' like UB claims.Box
March 14, 2013
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Box @322: I don't think anyone is disputing that information has to be obtained before it can be recognized and used, or that it may exist within a particular context or a particular code. But that doesn't mean something isn't objectively there. Once it is created by a mind it exists. And it doesn't just pop into and out of existence depending on whether a potential receiver happens to be looking at it or aware of it or thinking about it or has forgotten it and so on.Eric Anderson
March 14, 2013
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Box, Let me see if I have this right. one time- zero information two times- a teeny-tiny bit of information ... one thousand times- whole bunch of information Isn't it better to say that each instance has the same amount of information? (I would prefer the term 'message' in place of 'information'.) The fact that information does require a context (semiotic system) does not mean that information is not imbedded in the arbitrarily selected absence of milk bottles (placing the milk bottles on the floor inside the front door and out of sight instead of placing them on the porch.) Actually, the existence of the context (semiotic system that has been established) defines the arrangement of milk bottles to be information. Their absence signifies one thing and their presence means something else. The hypothetical is that you and your neighbor have setup your semiotic system and an outside observer can watch the information flow through it. At first, not even recognizing the reality of what has occurred (know but not understand). An astute observer, with enough repetitions, will crack the code (come to an understanding) of the semiotic system and tap into the information as future messages are sent whether your neighbor receives them or not (since, in your hypothetical the neighbor need not acknowledge or act based on the information). The receiver of the information need not even be a person. I could easily install a camera and pattern recognition software to monitor your porch and automatically remotely control your front porch light to not come on those evenings that your mother is not going to arrive for a visit. After the system is designed and implemented, no human is required at the receiving end.. I do think you are committing the same error that Alan has. There is something present in the ink on the printed page or the "missing bottle" code that is actually there whether someone is paying attention or not. Something is captured, recorded, symbolized, represented by the arrangement of matter. Alan absurdly denies there is anything. From what I have seen, you are essentially saying the same thing. If, on the other hand, you are saying there is something there but it is not information, then Eric is correct and you are playing a semantics game. If you wish to discuss information/message vs. knowledge vs. understanding then let’s move on to that instead of trying to make information disappear by not putting two milk bottles the front porch (when you otherwise would have) to signify you mother not coming (instead of coming for a visit as she normally would.) Stephensterusjon
March 14, 2013
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Perhaps the information is in the protocol and not the bottles? In other words, it is the mapping that makes it information. Once the mapping is created (requiring mind), then the information exists whether the bottles are present or not. Is it possible for something (or its lack) to represent something else without there being information present? From this view, the information in this post inheres in the mapping of various arrangements of letters to meanings in the English language more than in the content itself, which is perhaps a strange way to look at it.Phinehas
March 14, 2013
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2013
12:35 PM
12
12
35
PM
PST
1 2 3 12

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